BS: US torture

Subject: RE: BS: US torture
From: toadfrog
Date: 08 Mar 03 - 11:58 PM

Well, Beccy and Doug R.:
There is something to be said for not mixing theology and politics. It doesn't shed much light on the subject to say somebody is "evil." But it seems to be the in thing these days. If it is o.k. for GWB to relegate people to the "axis of evil," why shouldn't Bobert? Has this stopped being a free country?

I personally would say, it's worse for a President to sling that kind of abuse around, in public, than for some otherwise ordinary guy to curse a bit in a private argument. Because when the President says stuff like that, it has consequences that may be haunting us for years to come. A lot of people may yet suffer and die as a direct or indirect result of his saying that. Why shouldn't Bobert blow off a little steam.

And it seems to me, Bobert is as qualified to discuss good and evil as GWB is. Perhaps even a bit better qualified.

Subject: RE: BS: US torture
From: Ireland
Date: 09 Mar 03 - 12:55 PM

People cite Hitler to substantiate the theory that, No information which comes out of torture is dependable. None.

I am not being argumentative, are people honestly saying that the torture of covert operatives by the Gestapo etc. did not yield results. Of course it did,how many resistance groups were hunted down through intelligence gained from torture.

"These women will then come back to society someday.How sad can all this violence begetting violence get?"

They may not come back to society,if they die in the line of duty, protecting their country or trying to stop some ass who takes it into his head to beat women with a stick for no real reason.

I think this is one of the most crass and disgusting post I have read, it casts aspersions on these soldiers,who happen to be women. What do you think they are they going to do when they return to civvy street? I'll say no more, and treat your statement with the distain it deserves.

In the UK a Moslem cleric was jailed for 9 yrs for preaching hatred, he teaches the killing of non believers, Americans, Jews, Hindi, who he says can be robbed and killed out of hand. He teaches that those sending these people to hell is at the same time securing their own salvation.

So when we have some nut cases,say Al-Qaeda,who actually follow these teachings,who will their victims,Americans,call on to protect them?

Subject: RE: BS: US torture
From: harvey andrews
Date: 09 Mar 03 - 01:17 PM

I think this is one of the most crass and disgusting post I have read, it casts aspersions on these soldiers,who happen to be women. What do you think they are they going to do when they return to civvy street? I'll say no more, and treat your statement with the distain it deserves.

Sorry Ireland, I thought America saw itself as a civilised and civilising country, fighting against people less civilised than itself.
Seems it's okay to you that violence begets violence. That inhumanity begets inhumanity. That you turn into the very thing you're fighting against.
The Muslim cleric was rightly jailed for preaching exactly what you are supporting. Two uncharged prisoners murdered. Women being brought in to physically attack unarmed men. That's a war crime like any other. Do it, but don't then come the moral highground with the world.
Christian, Muslim,what's the difference? Brutality rules.
Mai Lai here we come again!

Subject: RE: BS: US torture
From: Ireland
Date: 09 Mar 03 - 02:02 PM

Christian, Muslim,what's the difference? Brutality rules.

Far too simplistic, could you have saved 3000 Sept 11 victims with your logic? Would the terrorists have listened to you? Would you offer them a greater reward than their version of salvation?

When someone buys into the idea that if they die in the course of murdering non believers they go straight to heaven and all its rewards, they certainly do not give a fig about your views.

They have already declared their intentions to the world and have carried out their acts of destruction and murder which indicates to the world they do not care for the welfare of the non believer.

These people do not care for you, your religion nor your welfare, as they believe killing you is doing you a favour. So what do you really have to offer? Nothing!

I do not come the moral high ground,I am truthful enough to say I have no problem with the torture of those who are responsible for presenting the world with 3000 dead Mai Lai, so people like them do not do it again.

Subject: RE: BS: US torture
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Mar 03 - 02:16 PM

"I have no problem with the torture of those who are responsible for presenting the world with 3000 dead Mai Lai, so people like them do not do it again " But since My Lai was an American atrocity who would have been the appropriate person to torture - the President as Supreme Commander, on the principle "the buck stops here"? Colin Powell for being involved in the attempted cover up?

I note, though, that it's moved on from the idea that torture is OK in a fancied situation where it might be a way of stopping a bomb going off, to it being as as an appropriate way of punishing people guilty of an atrocity. The slippery slope in action.

I'd say that one of the basic requirments for calling a society civilised is that it does not tolerate torture. No matter what.

Subject: RE: BS: US torture
From: harvey andrews
Date: 09 Mar 03 - 03:15 PM

Ah McGrath, the madness is upon us. If you do not learn from history you are fated to repeat it. The saddest lesson of all I think. Here's a couple of quotes from apst history;


"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the
citizenry into a patriotic fervour, for patriotism is indeed a
double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind.... And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded with patriotism, will offer up all their rights unto the leader, and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar."
Julius Caesar
Of course the people don't want war... that is understood. But, after
all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and
it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a
democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist
dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to
the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell
them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of
patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
Hermann Goering

--

Subject: RE: BS: US torture
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Mar 03 - 03:32 PM

And I take toadfrog's point about there being a distinction between torture and terrorism - the distinction not being between who does it, but between the purpose. A government agent engaged in torturing a prisoner is not necessarily engaged in a "terrorist" act, if the purpose is extracting information; nor is an operative of Al Qaeda or the IRA who is engaged in the same charming activity from the same reasons. That isn't a moral distinction, but a logical one - a torturer who believes that any means are acceptable to achieve the goal in view, has essentially the mindset of a terrorist.

And if the aim is to break the morale of sympathisers with the enemy, and so forth, that is terrorism. No matter who does it. And that is the way that torture has very often been used - for example in Chile, or Apartheid South Africa or in the French war in Algeria, and by both sides in Vietnam.

"Terrorist,n. One who favours or uses terror-inspiring methods of governing or of coercing government or community" (Concise Oxford Dictionary."

So when the Israeli governments, for example, punishes the communities and families of identified terrorists, by bulldozing homes, more especially when there are civilian non-combatants inside them, that is an act of terrorism. Bombing campaigns aimed at breaking the will of the enemy to resist is terrorism whether the bombs are carried in satchels or by guided missiles. It's not whom you are that defines you as a terrorist, it's what you do, and why you do it.

Subject: RE: BS: US torture
From: Beccy
Date: 09 Mar 03 - 04:38 PM

Toadfrog- you said: "Well, Beccy and Doug R.:
There is something to be said for not mixing theology and politics. It doesn't shed much light on the subject to say somebody is "evil." But it seems to be the in thing these days. If it is o.k. for GWB to relegate people to the "axis of evil," why shouldn't Bobert? Has this stopped being a free country?"

There is nothing wrong with Bobert blowing off a little steam.

...The problem comes in when Bobert uses statements like "No, make no bones about George Bush! He is a servant of the Devil! He serves Satan! He is no more a Christain than Herod! He has made *HIS* deal with the Devil. He will kill people for his own glory. It doesn't matter if it's one person or 100,000. The fact that he has made a decision that's *his* image is worth more than the life of one single human being makes him a *servant* of the Devil!" to justify his disapproval of a foreign affairs policy. Bobert is preaching Christianity and then in the same sentence going against the fundamental principles of the religion in which he claims to have faith. Christ taught love.

I was simply pointing out that Bobert was being a touch hypocritical.

Now- You may dislike George W. Bush until the cows come home. But I would hazard an educated guess that he's probably getting much more complete security briefs than are you. He may be more justified than we will ever know in making statements like the "Axis of Evil" one.

Man- you folks are a bunch of Calvinists with your fatalism and self-fulfilling prophecy business.

Beccy

Subject: RE: BS: US torture
From: Troll
Date: 09 Mar 03 - 09:57 PM

Roll on, Beccy. Roll on.
Ok Kevin, so we're not civilized.
Next question?

troll

Subject: RE: BS: US torture
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 09 Mar 03 - 10:09 PM

Beccy-Bush could only be justified in calling Iraq, Iran, and North Korea an "Axis of Evil" if they were both united in a common goal and the absolute incarnations of evil on earth. Since neither of these is true, I think it can be safely stated that the phrase "Axis of Evil" is just as much propaganda as Bobert saying "He serves Satan!"

McGrath-Why is torture unacceptable? For that matter, why is terrorism unacceptable? Just about every justice sytem from time immemorial has relied at least in part on deterrance through punishment. This is basically the idea that the punishment should be sufficiently weighty that one will not commit crime out of fear of said punishment. This is in principle quite similar to your definition of terrorism, in that it relies on fear of commiting certain actions to convince people not to undertake them. On an ethical standpoint, it seems untenable to claim that under no conditions is torture acceptable. If it is never acceptable, then it would be unethical to pull one person's fingernail in order to save the universe. I think that's a much harder position to support than thinking of it as an unpleasant means which is sometimes necessary for a greater end.

Subject: RE: BS: US torture
From: Beccy
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 09:20 AM

Lurker- I'll restate myself. The main difference between Bush's "Axis of Evil" statement and Bobert's "He serves Satan" statement is that Bush is receiving MUCH better intelligence regarding this situation than is Bobert.

...And besides that, he never said, "Axis of absolute Evil Incarnate on Earth." He said "Axis of Evil". I would also suggest that the named members of the Axis of Evil DO have a common goal- the decimation of Western Culture by one means or another.

Again, Bobert may detest Bush's foreign policy, but to say that he worships the devil BECAUSE of his foreign policy is hyberole at best, and assuming to know the contents of a man's heart at worst.

Do you think evil exists?

Subject: RE: BS: US torture
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 10:37 AM

You people have no idea what is about to hit you. Evil is about to crush you like a jet-powered die press. GWBush's grandfather had to be arrested to stop him from running Hitler's steel industry, and then after WW2, the Bushes REALLY got busy with the Nazis. You are all going to be dead in ten years. Compliments of the Bushes and your unwillingness to confront them in any real way. (And voting for Clinton didn't count, because he's just their #1 cocaine runner). I'd pity you folks, but it'd be like feeling sorry for the deer in the headlights. GWBush is the murderer of Sept 11, and the only way to stop your deaths is to tell everyone you know that GWBush is the murderer of Sept 11. There is no other way. His most open crime has to be broken out of congressional committee and exposed to the light of day. Forget about the Iraq diversion...focus on Sept 11. The Bushes were the masterminds, and they cannot survive an investigation. If you do not do this, you will all be dead in ten years, and your children will be working in govt whorehouses.

Subject: RE: BS: US torture
From: Beccy
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 10:42 AM

He's hhheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeerrrrrrreeeeeeeeee!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: US torture
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 11:19 AM

How does the fact that Bush may be getting "much better intelligence" than Bobert have any relevance whatsoever to whether he is evil or not? I'm sure that Adolf Hitler received much better intelligence than Bobert.

And that isn't meant to imply that Adolf Hitler and Bush are spiritual twins - I'll leave that to TDG.

(Of course receiving more "intelligence" doesn't mean it's all good stuff, or that the person receiving it is able to distinguish reliably between the good stuff and the crap, and use only the former, rather than doing it the other way round. Moreover there is a certain tradition in these matters of finding out what the boss wants to be told, and tailoring the information supplied to him to match that. But all that is another matter entirely.)

And Lurker, while you're getting into magical thinking about fingernails and universes, why stop at a fingernail? How about saving the universe when it means two fingernails...or perhaps that it requires killing someone's children as slowly as possible in front of their eyes? The whole universe remember...?

My point is, once you start talking in magical hypothetical terms like that, there's no telling where it ends. Maybe the people who planned September 11th sincerely thought that what they were doing was the only way to save the universe, to bring about the Kingdom of God and to destroy the Evil Empire. Magical thinking.

In the real world every action we take has so many possible consequences that it's pretty well impossible to add up and calculate them - you stop this particular bomb going off, and another bomb somewhere else goes off as a consequence...My belief is that you have to turn your back on trying to work out the sums, and make an existential decision. Draw a line and say "No further, no matter what."

Subject: RE: BS: US torture
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 11:31 AM

Beccy-I seriously disagree that those countries have the decimation of Western culture as their primary goal, but even if they did, how would that make them an "Axis of Evil?" The United States hopes to destroy the current Iraqi culture, and is generally opposed to cultures which do not inclue the principles of equality and majority rule; does that make us evil? To declare a country "evil" is so massive a generalization that it can never be true so long as the inhabitants of that country are even remotely human.

McGrath-I don't believe in existential decisions. General policy is a different matter; I make it a general rule not to kill, torture, or drive more than ten miles an hour over the speed limit, but I can see circumstances under which those actions might be not only allowable. but necessary. I don't think that the current intelligence situation warrants the use of torture, but I don't rule it out in all possible cases.

Subject: RE: BS: US torture
From: Beccy
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 11:44 AM

Lurker- I think we all know that when Bush refers to North Korea, Iran and Iraq as being the "Axis of Evil" that he's referring to the governing bodies and people in positions of power- NOT the populace.

If you don't believe that the militants in North Korea, Iran and Iraq have decimation of our culture as their goal, go to

Memri (Middle East Media Research Institute)

and have a look. These are direct translations of broadcasts from Al Jazeera and debriefs of defectors.

For instance:

On Iranian - North Korean Relations The London-based Saudi daily Al-Sharq Al-Awsatreported that senior Iranian Revolutionary Guards official Hamid Reza Zakiri recently defected. In an interview with Al-Sharq Al-Awsat, Zakiri disclosed information regarding the cooperation of the Revolutionary Guards and Iranian intelligence apparatuses[1] with Saddam Hussein's regime, terror organizations such as the Palestinian and Egyptian Jihad organizations, Al-Qa'ida, and Hizbullah. Zakiri also discussed the 1998 political murders in Iran, which were committed by the Iranian security apparatuses, and stated that Iran has nuclear installations.[2]


According to Al-Sharq Al-Awsat, Zakiri had worked as a supervisor and director of intelligence for the Revolutionary Guards, and had then moved to the Security Ministry, where he served in several positions for a number of years. Later, he joined the security apparatus of the Leader's Office, where he was a supervisor in charge of the apparatus's secretariat, and learned of the secret links between the Revolutionary Guards and Iranian security apparatuses, and revolutionary forces in the region.

In the interview, conducted outside Iran, Zakiri said that Dr. Ayman Al-Zawahiri, leader of the Egyptian Jihad organization and Osama bin Laden's deputy, established close ties with current deputy commander of the Revolutionary Guards, Brigadier-General Muhammad Bakr Dhu-Al-Qadr, and with current commanders of the Iranian and Al-Quds Forces, part of the Revolutionary Guards; commanders include Ahmad Vahidi and Hussein Muslih, who was former commander of the Revolutionary Guards in Lebanon. Zakiri told of bin Laden's stay in the Sudan, during the period when the Iranian Revolutionary Guards maintained an extensive presence there. According to him, Hizbullah and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad, under the leadership of Fathi Shiqaqi, had a massive presence in the special training camps supervised by Guards officers such as Dhu-Al-Qadr.

Al-Sharq Al-Awsat further noted that Zakiri said he was shocked when he read the political assassination file and learned of the security personnel's part in committing these and other acts.[3]

The paper also said that Zakiri revealed details of Imad Mughnia's (leading Hizbullah operative stationed in Iran with connections to Al-Qa'ida) role in some of the joint operations funded by Iranian intelligence and carried out by Islamic Jihad and other fundamentalist organizations.

The following is Al-Sharq Al-Awsat's entire interview with Hamid Reza Zakiri, as well as a response by the Iranian Foreign Ministry, and news reports about other top-ranking Iranian defectors


Al-Sharq Al-Awsat: "You said that you participated in teaching and training courses abroad. Where was this?"

Zakiri: "I went to North Korea twice, as our relations with it are special. Over the years, we sent a number of groups of Revolutionary Guards personnel and security [forces personnel] to North Korea. Among those who received combat training were Revolutionary Guards Commander Rahim Safavi and his deputy Dhu-Al-Qadr. Among the personnel of the [Revolutionary] Guards were units of pilots who received training in flying and parachuting operations, among them Brigadier-General Kalibaf (now military forces commander). Our group included intelligence officers. The first time I went for 40 days and participated in special courses on psychological warfare and counter-espionage, and the second time, I stayed in North Korea again for 40 days and participated in a special course for protecting nuclear and other secret installations."

Al-Sharq Al-Awsat: "What are the nuclear installations for? Are there really nuclear installations?"

Zakiri: "I don't intend to talk about them. These are matters relating to the security of my country. I am against the [conservative] minority but I am not against Iran. Iran is a great country and there is no doubt that its defense needs demand a solution that will prevent external aggression against it. We have sacrificed half a million Shahid [martyrs] and there are hundreds of thousands of cities… destroyed by Iraq."

For full background on and text of this interview go to:

interview with Iranian defector

Subject: RE: BS: US torture
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 11:46 AM

Lurker - "I don't believe in existential decisions" is surely in itself an existential decision.

Subject: RE: BS: US torture
From: Beccy
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 11:49 AM

"Lurker - "I don't believe in existential decisions" is surely in itself an existential decision."


Amen, McGrath!

Subject: RE: BS: US torture
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 12:06 PM

I think it's a very pragmatic decision. To believe that there are absolute right and wrong requires that there is some source of those concepts which is unalterable by humans. Whether that's God, the nature of rational beings, or anything you choose to believe in, it's still something you have to take on faith.

Subject: RE: BS: US torture
From: Beccy
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 12:44 PM

So, Lurker- You're saying its pragmatic to believe that oneself is the only power in the universe?

Subject: RE: BS: US torture
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 01:19 PM

No, I'm saying that it's pragmatic not to believe in any power that cannot be shown to exist. If I had evidence of such a source of morality, I would consider the possibility that it might exist. However, the weight of the evidence is against it.

Subject: RE: BS: US torture
From: Beccy
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 01:26 PM

Actually, Lurker, I would say that everything around you and in you proves that the external power DOES exist. We are not self-generating, and when you look at the amount of things that could but do not go wrong with biology, humanity, ecology, et al on a daily basis, the preponderance of evidence is on the side of a higher power.

Do you believe that there is right and wrong? Do you follow a moral or ethical code (even one of "your own" design?) Is one person's life worth less, or more than yours? Or is every life of equal worth? To me, these are all questions that can only be explained using a higher standard that has been set out for humans. Sic, there must be a higher power.

Beccy

Subject: RE: BS: US torture
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 02:10 PM

The trouble is that, once you decide that the only ground for your actions is a utilitarian judgement about the balance of consequences, it's hard to avoid the conclusion that any action can be justifiable in some circumstances.

That would be how Hitler would have claimed to justify the Holocaust.

Subject: RE: BS: US torture
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 05:20 PM

You know, what's really pathetic is that the man who was used to spark this debate in America regarding torture is dead. Dozens of sources reported it last year. Just type 'Khalid killed 2002, or Khalid dead 2002 into google':

Khalid Dead

The govt of the US has so little regard for us they trot this bogus story out and then IMMEDIATELY start steering the debate in the direction of torturing children...is it right or wrong? And you moral relativists give these monsters CREDENCE by saying there is no such thing as evil. Not really. It's all relative...it depends.

Your morals are being destroyed incrementally by crap like this, and when the time comes for YOUR torture, you will have brought it on yourself. Torture is wrong. Period. There ARE absolutes in the world.

Subject: RE: BS: US torture
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 05:52 PM

I don't think I have ever read anything so full of hate as the kind of stuff Dreadful Guest keeps posting. One sick puppy! I wonder what kind of childhood he/she/it had?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: US torture
From: harvey andrews
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 06:28 PM

when you look at the amount of things that could but do not go wrong with biology, humanity, ecology, et al on a daily basis, the preponderance of evidence is on the side of a higher power.

But for others Beccy the amount of things that DO go wrong with biology, humanity, ecology et al on a daily basis provide a preponderance of evidence against there being a higher power.

You has yer choice, you takes yer pick!

Subject: RE: BS: US torture
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 07:00 PM

Geez, Don. Did I hit another nerve? I say there is such a thing as absolute morality and you have to attack the messenger? You need to rethink your long life, it appears. The things you believed in are no longer valid, unless you've believed in torturing children all along. The US govt is threatening to torture the seven and nine year old kids of 'suspects', and Senate bill 22, when it passes, will make YOU a suspect if you 'infer from action' that you are going to commit a crime. You'll be a 'domestic terrorist' under Section 802 of the PATRIOT Act. So...you will be subject to torture before you can run to your closet again to hide from the WTO protestors. You're damn right I'm full of hate. The childhood I had taught the Constitution and civic responsibility, and now you're going to let all that go down the drain. And I'm going to kick you in the head with that over and over and over until they kill me. You may not LIKE freedom of speech, but I'm going to make damn sure you have to deal with it while we have it. You'll have your Nazi state soon enough if you continue to do nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: US torture
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 07:10 PM

Sparrownoid, thanks for the gift. Keep on keepin' on.

I am constantly reminded of the millions of rational, intelligent, and well-meaning Germans who enthusiastically supported Hitler in 1933-45, died for him, gave away their civil rights to him, and believed his incredible propaganda while his armies invaded and brutalized small countries (and large ones) on every side. The rest of the World watched in astonishment, thinking "How can they possibly believe this maniac?"

Most of those Germans were most certainly not what I would call "evil" people...just people who were seriously misled by the people at the top.

As for good and evil...they constantly reside as great potential forces within the heart and mind of EVERY human being, and therein lies the great challenge of mastering life and acting on behalf of what benefits not only one's own life but also the lives of others.

And that is why Jesus advised that we treat others as we ourselves would wish to be treated. Every other great spiritual teacher has advised the same, not surprisingly. It is the crux of good character.

Accordingly, it would be most wise not to ever torture people. Not on any excuse. What goes around most definitely does come around...in due time. Furthermore, torture is a very cowardly act, in my opinion...and is not justified as a response to previous cowardly or otherwise heinous acts by the ones being tortured.

Torturers are people who are too morally weak and too wrapped up in themselves and their own fear to have the vision or the fibre to behave like decent human beings. Those who order them to torture are even worse than that. Those who argue in its defence on the basis of pragmatism have lost their bearings.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: US torture
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 07:59 PM

Beccy-As Harvey said, there are innumerable things that DO go wrong with everything. I have seen considerable evidence for evolution, and it seems a logical theory to explain the diversity and nature of life, civilization, ecology, etc. I have never seen any evidence that could be most easily interpreted to indicate a creator, or any other source of vitality or morality. The only sensible morality to me is contract morality: you should only undertake actions that significantly affect other people if they agree that that action should be taken, or if they are infringing upon your right to self-determination. Without clear evidence that a higher morality exists, and an incontrovertible statement of that higher morality, any belief in absolute morality is not only misguided, but quite likely to result in unpleasant consequences.

McGrath-It's true that utilitarianism allows for the possibility that any action may in some circumstances be justified. I consider that a strength, rather than a weakness. If actions exist which can never be justifiable, then you can have logical dilemmas, where no action nor inaction is permissible.

Subject: RE: BS: US torture
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 08:16 PM

No dilemma, but a hard choice, and living with the consequences. If an action can't be justified, you have to do something else instead, even without expectation of achieving the end you would prefer.

A position that accepts that any action - including, for example, the Holocaust - may in some circumstances be justified is in my view fatally flawed. That is what I meant by an existential decision. Essentially, I'm with Gandalf.

Subject: RE: BS: US torture
From: Troll
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 10:50 PM

Hypothetical question.
You have a captive whom you believe has information which can save thousands of lives. But he/she refuses to talk.
If you torture him/her, you may get the information.
If you do not get the information, thousands die horribly.
Is there any moral justification in favor of torture?
Is there any moral justification against torture?
For the sake of preventing end runs, you have only 24 hours before the cataclysm occurs, and this is the only link you have. You know that it will happen but not what or where.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: US torture
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 12:19 AM

But what if neither option is acceptable at all, such as torture juxtaposed with allowing a loved one to die? It must be possible to justify AN action, otherwise you can neither act nor fail to act.

Subject: RE: BS: US torture
From: DougR
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 12:48 AM

Beccy: you're on a roll. Right on!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: US torture
From: Troll
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 02:09 AM

I simply posed a question. I will niether protest or defend either action. Inaction is one of the choices. It allows the death of thousands.
Is torture or the lack of it justified? And why? Just that. No end runs to escape the moral quandry.
Action MAY save thousands of lives. Inaction will allow you to escape the stigma of torture but you must then live with the knowledge that you might have saved many, many lives.
There is no easy answer.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: US torture
From: Wolfgang
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 06:04 AM

A very fine discussion (if you skip the usual suspects). For instance, reading McGrath and Forum Lurker brings me the best possible arguments for or against utilitarian judgement. Both point very convincingly to weaknesses of the respective other position. To cite troll, there is no easy answer.

I'm with Forum Lurker in this basic decision but at the same time I agree (in the sense of 'valid points', not in the sense of 'ultimatively convincing for me personally') with most of McGrath's arguments against such a decision. There are situations in a life in which there is no possible decision without guilt. I know what I would do but I wouldn't blame anybody else for a different decision.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: US torture
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 06:07 AM

Any action has many consequences. It seems likely that the widespread use of torture by the French in Algeria, for example, was a major factor in getting us to where we are today. And I think very few people woudl even seek to claim that even in the Algerian War it reduced the numbers of people killed. An action that, in the short run, looks as though if will have a good result that outweighs the harm it does, may in a longer perspective turn out to have been the seed of catastrophe. Doing those kinds of sums gets you nowhere.

If we turn back to a time when torture was accepted as something our agents were entitled to do, the price paid by our society will be enormous. I believe that, in spite of the short-term arguments that can be raised to justify it, which are the same ones which could always be raised to justify it in the time of our ancestors, most people will reject going down that road.

Subject: RE: BS: US torture
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 08:04 AM

Clever minds can always fashion clever questions and scenarios to seemingly justify the unjustifiable.

Reminds me of the times people have said things to me like "Suppose you're driving down this narrow mountain road and you come around a hairpin turn and there's this huge truck bearing down on you. You could turn left, but if you do you run over a little girl with a puppy in her arms. You could turn right and fly off the cliff, killing yourself. You could plow straight ahead into the truck and kill yourself, and maybe the trucker too. What is the right thing to do?"

Like I said..."clever" minds come up with these things...in order to justify some line of reasoning which they have already invested their ego in defending, so they've gotta keep defending it.

Such arguments are in fact complete BS, are spurious, have nothing to do with anything, and usually posit a situation which is never going to arise anyway. Furthermore, one cannot concoct perfect solutions ahead of time for hypothetical extreme situations which may (and probably will) never happen. One can only deal with each unique circumstance in a fresh and creative way as it arises.

Accordingly, I am about as impressed by arguments in favour of torture as I am impressed by bullies who explain to me why it's a great idea and a REALLY GOOD THING for them to beat the hell out of smaller people, given certain "special" circumstances....or to put it another way, I'm about as impressed as I would be by a turd lying in the middle of the road.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: US torture
From: Ireland
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 08:24 AM

Can we look at the situation this way,and it does refer to my simple scenario. If your immediate family was under threat, and you have those responsible, what would you do to prevent the next killing?

I ask this to illustrate the dilemma that faces people who are responsible for the security of their country.

Really what would you do?

There is no use saying I wouldn't have let things get this far or any such arguments, fact is we have let it get this far and some one has to do something.

I believe that if the group that the prisoners belong to indicated that no more attacks would happen, all threats lifted,a different emphasis would be put on the intel gathered from the prisoners. That is no lives would be at risk. But as it is we have Bin Laden and his threats, and those threatened are your family friends and fellow country men and women.

The remit of the terrorist is to attack the vulnerable, murder those who can least defend themselves. At present the people who are carrying out interrogations at G.Bay are not doing any of the above and in my opinion the tarring them with the terrorist brush is disengenuous. The terrorist is the instigator of evil deeds who cry foul when exposed to some of their own medicine.

As I said the horse has bolted and we have to deal with the issues at hand, if it is your mother,father,child or friend that is to be the next victim, what do you do?

Subject: RE: BS: US torture
From: Ireland
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 08:41 AM

Difference with your BS mountain road and the other scenarios LH is simple, one is chance,the other is a real threat, which has been backed up by the Sept 11 atrocity and threats of more from Bin Laden.

Who would have thought people would fly aeroplanes into the twin towers? Real threats real situations,but no real solutions.

Subject: RE: BS: US torture
From: GUEST,viet vet '67
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 10:19 AM

An effective form of phycological torture used in Vietnam was to take a group of blindfolded prisoners (bound hand and foot) aboard a helicopter and go up 10 to 20 feet and start asking them questions. The prisoners were told that the altitude was, for example, 2,000 feet. If the 1st refused to talk, his/her ass was pushed out of the chopper where he/she landed on a pile of old mattresses and silenced. The interegators were very vocal and descriptive of the "fall". After a few moments to let all this soak in and rattle the now terrified prisoners the questioning began again. I rarely saw or heard of a case where this method was not effective and we gained a wealth of knowledge utilizing this procedure.

Subject: RE: BS: US torture
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 12:26 PM

March 10 — Years before George W. Bush entered the White House, and years before the Sept. 11 attacks set the direction of his presidency, a group of influential neo-conservatives hatched a plan to get Saddam Hussein out of power...

And in a report just before the 2000 election that would bring Bush to power, the group predicted that the shift would come about slowly, unless there were "some catastrophic and catalyzing event, like a new Pearl Harbor."

http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/nightline/DailyNews/pnac_030310.html

The hijackers were trained by the CIA at Pensecola Naval Air Station and in Pakistan. They created the 'new Pearl Harbor'. Clinton and the Bushes are the terrorists. Then after the attacks, you were declared to be a 'domestic terrorist' if you break a Federal or State law (PATRIOT Act). And the next round of legislation will define terrorist as anyone who 'looks' like they might break a law. You people are legitimizing your own torture, and THE TERRORISTS THEMSELVES ARE DUPING YOU INTO THIS. I can understand uneducated people falling for this, but YOU people? Amazing.

Subject: RE: BS: US torture
From: Troll
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 01:05 PM

L.H. kindly tell me what position I am defending with the scenario that my "clever" mind conjured up. I'd be interested to get your perspective.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: US torture
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 01:13 PM

Dreadful Guest, I'm fascinated by the glee with which you describe what you think will be the eventual fate of those (such as myself) who think you're just sick. It amply demonstrates just how sick you really are. Get a grip!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: US torture
From: Ireland
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 01:30 PM

We have been well warned by DG about how we are being duped, not one solution to the problem though.

Everyone remember's Tibet, do we follow their example?

The daft part of the G.Bay situation is that these prisoners can go free in the end,3000 victims in their grave cannot. Who is being duped?

Subject: RE: BS: US torture
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 02:08 PM

Don...you need to get a grip. On the new reality. It's hard to break conditioning even at my age, so it'll be harder for you. A lifetime living a governmental lie. I know you know your stuff on the Constitution and so forth, but the Constitution is being circumvented and will soon be eliminated altogether. By the people who bombed the WTC. And meanwhile, we're being accustomed to the thought of torturing our neighbors while everyone wants to return to the comfortable old routine of electioneering. But we CAN'T fall back into comfortable old diversionary ways, or it's all over.

Last year the CIA (whose job is to assassinate, distribute arms and topple govts) was legally authorized to operate within the borders of the U.S. for the first time in our history. The pro killers have been directed inwards now, and there won't be any more free elections, then no free speech, then no constitution, then concentration camps. It is here, and I certainly don't take glee in it.

The price tag for a 5-year occupation of Iraq was just announced. 1.7 to 1.9 trillion dollars, US. The largest beneficiaries will be the corporations who ARE the Bushes and Cheneys....Haliburton, Westinghouse, Wackenhut. And the major defense contractor now is the Carlyle Group. Bush Sr and the bin Ladens work for the Carlyle Group, and they've already SPENT the bonus money they will make from the 'occupation' of Iraq. They bought Universal Studios last week. An Armaments Contractor bought Universal studios. So...tell me exactly HOW I can ignore this stuff. Next year you will have a universal service bill (not just a draft...but ditch digging for those not in the military), and torture will be affecting your neighborhood, and the definition of domestic terrorist will be 'anyone who infers from conduct they might break a law'...etc. And Universal studios will be making pictures about how this is all GOOD. TELL ME why I shouldn't be upset.

Subject: RE: BS: US torture
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 02:41 PM

Those who get sucked in by conspiracy theories and swallow them to the gills invariably accuse those who don't join them in their panic of being either brainwashed or part of the conspiracy. They never acknowledge that anyone but themselves is capable of independent thought. A form of solipsism. Very comforting to the victim of the condition because it allows him the feel that he is the only one in the know, hence more intellegent than everyone else.

Like I said: sick.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: US torture
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 03:32 PM

And that kind of crap the "viet vet" was gloating over is one of the things that made sure the USA lost that war.

What I might do or might not do in a hypothetical situation is a matter of individual psychology and ethics and all that. What is the right thing for a civilised society to authorise to be done by its agents might well be something comnpletely different.

The logic that justifies torture is the very same logic that justifies an atrocity such as September 11th. "Do whatever is necessary to achieve this goal".

Subject: RE: BS: US torture
From: Beccy
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 04:02 PM

Don- I do believe you're encouraging him...

Beccy

Subject: RE: BS: US torture
From: GUEST,viet vet '67
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 04:10 PM

McGrath...your elected officials lost the vietnam abortion and it looks like the US will lose its financial ass in Iraq. Aw man, what am I saying...Dubya says this economy is "real strong" and we can afford as much as he wants to spend...sorry.

I agree with DG...the rich get richer, the poor get broke and dead.

Some of you "lifers" need to have a plate glass window installed in your stomach so that you can see where you are going and what is going on...that is how far your heads are up your collective asses.

Subject: RE: BS: US torture
From: Ireland
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 05:24 PM

There is nothing hypothetical about Bin Ladens threats,he has shown what his crowd is capable off,and has promised more attacks. What should we do to stop it?

We can apply all the logic we want, fact is Sept 11 happened, more acts like it are promised and logical brinkmanship will not solve the present threats.

Next we will hear if we breathe through our mouths like terrorists etc etc.

To look at this in a humane way, that is the terrorist giving intelligence freely,what happens to the "tout"?

What happened in N.I., the tout was beaten and interrogated, by his own side btw, shot in the back of the head, in such a way the family could not view the body. Viscerated, the cavity filled with explosives so the tout's body served the terrorist one last time to kill people in a booby trap.

Terrorists are terrorist, their gift to the world is murder, and any means to prevent this has to be considered.