BS: Protestant State!

Subject: BS: Protestant State!
From: Fiolar
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 05:23 AM

Records released under the 30 year rule to the British Public Records Office reveal that in 1972 Edward Heath's Tory Government drew up secret plans to forcibly evict up to 500,000 Catholics from Nothern Ireland.They would be "resettled" in areas near the Irish Republic. The border would then be re-drawn making Nothern Ireland a Protestant only province. Now where have I have heard "resettlement plans" before?

Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 05:42 AM

Here's a link to the story. One of a number of options considered but discarded.

Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 06:26 AM

1972. They just were out of their depth. No one knew what to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Big Tim
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 07:15 AM

Agreed, Keith. It was a daft, desperate idea that could never have worked.

Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: ard mhacha
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 07:20 AM

Correct Tim, nor did it work in 1922. Ard Mhacha

Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Big Tim
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 09:47 AM

They would have to have "sealed the border", patrolled the coasts and skies and prevented people of different brands of christianity from marrying each other! I wonder how seriously the idea was considered though? And where would the Jews, Buddhists, Muslims, etc have gone? "Daft" really is the only word.

Ard: happy new year, war is over?

Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Gareth
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 09:57 AM

Well, I doubt if it would have worked, but then the Conservatives have always supported apartied.

Instead post 1972 we have seen "religious cleansing" of areas by protestants, and catholics, quite happy to deny to each other the civil rights and liberties they claim for themselves.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 11:10 AM

This was back in the news just before Christmas.


http://www.iraatrocities.fsnet.co.uk/claudy%20massacre.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: ard mhacha
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 11:33 AM

And it didn`t work in 1922. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 11:36 AM

It's the kind of "thinking" that still seems to be seen as respectable in Israel.

Desperate times produce stupid ideas.

Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 12:23 PM

So far as they considered this proposal at all (and it wasn't very far at all) it was only in desperation. And it's only fair to mention that the 30-year disclosures have also revealed that the Tory foreign secretary of the day (and former PM) Alec Douglas-Home was in favour then (1972) of a united Ireland.

But I'm puzzled by Mudcat's pre-occupation with Ireland. I know many emigrated to America from Ireland, but millions did too from mainland Europe where religious intolerance has wrought far greater mayhem. Right now I'm doing a piece for a London paper about the slaughter of Orthodox Christians in Croatia in 1941-44 - more than 700,000 killed, often buried alive, thousands at a time, or sometimes sliced up by robed catholic priests and Franciscan religious after having their eyes gouged and tongues pulled out.

The Nazi puppet regime, the Ustashe, had the blessing of the catholic archbishop of Zagreb, who was a member of the country's governing council, and is now on course - incredibly - for sainthood. As evidence of miracles, or other magic, in his name might be hard to find, he will be canonised on the strength of his martyrdom. (That is to say, he died about nine years after being released from prison, having served only a small part of the sentence he got for his war crimes. Some martyr.)

So bravo, Pope Pius XII, and bravo John Paul II. And bravo USA administrations that paved the way for Tuddjeman's more recent regime in Croatia, in which he restored all the symbols and insignia of the clero-fascist Ustashe. Such ready accommodation of brutality beyond belief helped pave the way for the horrific, genocidal retaliation by the Serbs a few years ago. What the Serbs did was beyond excuse certainly, but in Croatia they had been on the receiving end of the most depraved mass cruelty since the dark ages, and done in the name of God.

Yet the doctrinal differences between the eastern and western (catholic) churches were trivial against those between catholicism and the reformed churches in Ireland. It came down to whether it should be leavened or unleavened bread that was turned into the flesh of Jesus (while mysteriously retaining the smell, taste and texture of bread!). In Ireland partition was wrong, but it allowed northern protestants to divorce and use contraceptives. And it allowed southern catholics to use their public parks and swimming pools on Sundays.

On the whole, Ireland (and the UK) has escaped lightly from imbecile religious differences that have ravaged Europe. But anyone researching the subject a few centuries hence would never know it from the Mudcat archive.

Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: ard mhacha
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 12:25 PM

No wonder the Brits were unprepared, with their one-eyed outlook on all things Irish they were caught with their trousers down.
They left the six counties to rot in the hands of the most bigotted people imagineable, I had more than a fair idea what it was like to be a black in the US or South Africa.
This was the fault of sucessive British Governments, whilst gerrymandering of votes went on and the bigots responsible knew that a blind eye was forever being shown by their friends across the Channel. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Gareth
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 12:51 PM

Hmmm ! - There does seem to be a blind (?? Bigoted ??) spot where Ireland is concerned.

As a certain faction seems to utilise folk memory and myth to justify inhuman actions it seems only fair that the the other side of the coin is also shown, and in the interest of folk balence I post this :-

Portadown

In sixteen hundred and forty one those fenians formed a plan
To massacre us Protestants down by the River Bann
To massacre us Protestants and not to spare a man
But to drive us down like a heard of swine into the River Bann

Brave Porter fell a victim, because he did intend
To help his brother Protestants their lives for to defend
The blood did stain the waters red, their bones lay all around
As they drove them down into the Bann that flows Through Portadown

A lady living in Loughgall and with her children five
She begged for the sake of them to let her be alive
That she might go to England her husband there to see
And to live in peace and unity and far from Popery

But O they would not hear her cry, they placed her on the ground
And after having tortured her the six of them they bound
They said you are a heretic, the Pope you do defy
And its from this bridge in Portadown this day your doom to die.

And after having tortured her to a pain she could not stand
Down through the streets of Portadown they dragged her to the Bann
OShane appointed as her guard to guide her on her way
And the thought of five young children was leading her astray

At least the hundred faithful souls in Portadown were slain
All were the deeds of Popery their wicked words to gain
But god sent down brave Cromwell our Deliverer to be
And he put down Popery in this land us Protestants set free

King William soon came after him and planted at the Boyne
An Orange Tree there that we should bear in mind
How Popery did murder us Protestants did drown
The bones of some can still be seen this day in Portadown.

Taken from this rather interesting, in the historical context, site Click 'Ere


I may concur with views on the attitudes of the old Stormont regime, and in this conection I refer 'Catters to that excllent 'Left Book Club' publication - "John Bull's Other Island" by Marcus Lipton MP, published in 1946 or 47. Should be available by Libuary 'interloan'.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 01:04 PM

The coverage of this in the Daily Telegraph has more quotes, indicating fairly clearly that the civil servant who got the job of writing up this option thought it was totally unviable and a bloody silly idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Big Tim
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 01:23 PM

Oh no Gareth, not 1641, please. But: as in 1798, there were stupid sectarian massacres by both sides. Portadown (1641) and Scullabogue (1798) were not one way. The historical facts are there. Plus ca change or whatever... Good comment though about ethnic cleansing and mutual denying of rights. Does ethnic cleansing ultimately favour the Catholics? Penning the Protestants into two or three, unviable, counties?

Mudcat isn't obsessed with Irishry, just some of us!

Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Big Tim
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 01:56 PM

A good, balanced, rational perspective from Fionn, as ever. Yes we, the Irish, are only small fish in a small pond. But it's OUR pond though.

"Partition was wrong"? This fascinates me. Am I the only Irish republican in the world who thinks that partition was indeed necessary? If it was wrong, what was the workable political, social, cultural, political alternative; then and now? We're back to the Michael Collins Treaty dilemma again.

Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: wilco
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 02:23 PM

These threads are very, very sad, reminding us of religious vigotry and intolerance, centuries' old hatreds. the horror of mixing reliogion and politics, etc.
    Like the US Civil War here (1861-1865), these old wounds can't seem to be sealed and healed. Why doesn't this have resolution in Ireland?

Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: GUEST,paddymac
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 02:45 PM

Well said, Fionn.

Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 03:20 PM

Thanks for pulling me in, Big Tim! Far too assertive, as ever. If I'd thought for a moment, I'd have said partition was "unsatisfactory" - just as any other solution then available would have been. (I think you know I'm with Collins's on the big question.)

Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 03:59 PM

One of the things that Mudcat has changed for me is how I approach these threads. Since I have started to use them to enhance my understanding of the land and the culture that spawned me, instead of running my mouth, I have become much better informed with regard to how peace will happen. This is another of those illuminating threads. Thanks to all.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: ard mhacha
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 04:05 PM

Fionn, Living in the six counties for a period might change your tune.
You know alls can only come up with the your one and only rhyme, "o if the Irish were all like the rest of us fair minded people"
I have seen people come here with their grandiose notions of turning the other cheek and showing us how to behave in a reasonable manner,
after a time living here they soon learned who was on the wrong end of a bigotted regime. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: ard mhacha
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 04:11 PM

Big Mick, If you really want to know what went on here just put the name John McGuffin on your Yahoo Search and read this Protestants two books [both on line], The Guineapigs and Internment.
Afterwards come back on to this thread and tell me I am wrong. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Ireland
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 04:13 PM

How many people look at Ireland as an isolated problem, in 1690, the Pope supported the defeat of James 2, so really we are putting religion in to this at a time when people of either religion could be found on both sides.

ie. The pope,Alexander VIII, supported King William, who was a protestant and celebrated the defeat of James 2 by having all the church bell in Christendom to be rung. Hardly an action you would expect if you were in fear of your Church members.

Maybe a better understanding of European and Catholic Church history at that time is needed,then people would not be making the ridicules statements that they do.

James 2 was a threat to European peace and his actions were seen as a threat to the Pope and his authority. Take the religion aspect out of it and what is left, a battle that was part of a power struggle, nothing to do with religion.

We have been lead up the garden path on the religious divide,why do we have people moaning about English monarchy when they fought and died for the ENGLISH King James 2? What treatment would people of Ireland expect to receive if James 2 had won, certainly not the right to self govern as James 2 had plans to install English leaders. Maybe we all know these little important details but chose to ignore them as it confuses the situation.

If we have had such a divide on religious grounds, who were the Free Irish men, Presbyterian how far can you get from Catholics than them.

It is only been in the beginning of the last century that the divide has be widened, the advent of those orange men and other groups using religion and bigotry to drive a wedge between us, and stupidly we all followed. Or that's the opinion of the ignorant.

People are wetting themselves at the prospect that there will be more Catholics than Protestants, which they assume will immediately vote for a United Ireland, utter nonsense, religion has nothing to do with this. As in the 1690's not all Catholics fought for James 2 and not all Protestants fought for William. But lets not let a bit of hysteria get in our way.

It is convenient to forget the past and the reasons behind the conflicts so we can make a better case for whatever cause we agree with. People believe that a United Europe will solve our problems, why not considering our problems stem from a power struggle for Europe and Ireland was just a pawn in the mess.

The stupid part of the whole situation is when and if we become an United Europe, what will that entail, English, French, German and other EU countries being in charge. So are people fighting for self determination just to hand it over to others? If so what a terrible waste of life of those who thought they were fighting for a cause.

The 1922 partition was a solution to stop the blood shed, Collins paid the price for trying to save lives and get an United Ireland with other means. Maybe he seen enough of the dead on both sides, which many commentators are protected from, to think it was worth a try.

Who cares that someone came up with an idea at what is today known as a brainstorming session, it is all well and good that at the end of 30 or so years we can look at such records. Are terrorists meticulously keeping records so we can judge them in the future?

Protestants also suffered in the rotting six counties,for many working class people religion was not a factor.


Maybe this site will be of some help.
Cain Site

Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 04:23 PM

What happened in 1922 is water under the bridge, and there's no real point in arguing about it. If I'd been there at the time and had a vote, I'd have voted against it. Very probably I'd have fought against it too, like my father did in Tipperary, right or wrong. (And like him I'd have lamented the double loss of Michael Collins - the loss of him to the other side, and the loss of him to the other world.)

But whatever you can change you can't change the past, and it's a waste of time acting and talking as if you could. That doesn't mean you can't learn from the mistakes of the past, and the fundamental mistake of that time way was the division between republicans; but the deeper and more fundamental mistake in earlier generations had been the division between the two sets of people who have to share the island between them of which partition when itb came became the physical representation.

Set against some of the horrors which have beset other part of the world, the divisions within Ireland would hardly register, though it seems strange to say that. If peace can't be built between the divided traditions in Ireland there's no hope for places like the former Yugoslavia or Central Africa. Ending partition on the ground isn't what it's really about, ending the division between people is what really matters.

Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 04:39 PM

ard mhacha, I think you misunderstand me. None of my post was pointed at you specifically, or your position. I am not even saying that I agree or disagree on any particular persons post. I am quite sincere in saying that as I watch the various posts from the folks most affected by the troubles, I learn a great deal about this situation in the North. A discussion of my views on all this would be a separate thing.

In the meantime, I hope all will carry on. It is very interesting to me to hear the defence of the various positions.

Thanks,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Ireland
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 04:42 PM

Your right McG of H, the problem with the past is those who use it as an excuse for their actions which shape the future.

Love to hear more on your Fathers time in Tipperary, did he think that fighting on would have been successful, I hope I don't offend you by asking this, just interested in hearing from those who where there.

Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Ireland
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 05:07 PM

A quote from James Connolly with reference to 1690 period:

"The forces which battled beneath the walls of Derry or Limerick were not the forces of England and Ireland but were the forces of two English political parties fighting for the possession of the powers of government; and the leaders of the Irish Wild Geese on the battlefields of Europe were not shedding their blood because of their fidelity to Ireland, as our historians pretend to believe, but because they had attached themselves to the defeated side in English politics. This fact was fully illustrated by the action of the old Franco-Irish at the time of the French Revolution. They in a body volunteered into the English army to help put down the new French Republic, and as a result Europe witnessed the spectacle of the new republican Irish exiles fighting for the French Revolution, and the sons of the old aristocratic Irish exiles fighting under the banner of England to put down that Revolution. It is time we learned to appreciate and value the truth upon such matters, and to brush from our eyes the cobwebs woven across them by our ignorant or unscrupulous history-writing politicians."

Subject: Lyr Add: Days upon the run
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 05:38 PM

I don't think success or failure would have been in his mind. In that kind of situation, especially when you're nineteen, I suspect you act on instinct, and in Tipperary the overwhelming feeling was against the Treaty.

As he told it once, he was in Clonmel, and the Free Staters were coming in one end of the town , and he had a gun and was told to hand it in, and he met a friend who'd been told the same - and they looked at each other, and went out of the town the back way up into the hills to find the men who were still fighting under Liam Lynch.

I wrote this song about it, after he died:

Oh they slipped away when it was barely day
into the hills that lay above the town.
And they wandered lonely on the mluntaisn stony,
while the soldiers hunted all around.
Like some fox to fly, all on the mountain high,
and to do what little could be done,
in a helpless struggle in those days of trouble,
in those desperate days upon the run.
And for some it ended in a lonely bullet,
and for some it ended in a cell,
and for some it ended in a life resplendant,
as a statesman doing very well.
But for some it ended in a hope suspended,
and a life beneath a foreign sun,
and in dreams persistant of a time far distant,
and of far off days upon the run.

Well they walked all day up on that rocky mountain,
till the sun went down behind the hill,
and they came that evening to a house lying wauting -
there was noone there who'd wish them ill -
but they slept that night there, high up in the heather,
and they shivered in the morning sun,
for a passing breath, it might mean life or death
to those boys who went upon the run.
And for some it ended in a lonely bullet,
and for some it ended in a cell,
and for some it ended in a life resplendant,
as a statesman doing very well.
But for some it ended in a hope suspended,
and a life beneath a foreign sun,
and in dreams persistant of a time far distant,
and of far off days upon the run.


And at dawn they came upon a rushing river,
with a hidden rope from side to side,
and they dragged their bodies through the freezing water,
and they walked all day till they were dry.
And their boots wore through, and they were lost and weary,
and the sun, the sun was beating down,
and their heads grew giddy, and the guns so heavy,
in those endless days upon the run.
And for some it ended in a lonely bullet,
and for some it ended in a cell,
and for some it ended in a life resplendant,
as a statesman doing very well.
But for some it ended in a hope suspended,
and a life beneath a foreign sun,
and in a fading story, of shame and glory,
and of far off days upon the run.

For him the "foreign sun" was Argentina; and when he came back a few years later he fough for six years in the British Army against the Nazis. A friend told me once that when he was once asked in some court case (motoring) if it wasn'y a bit strange for an old IRA man to have fought later in the British Army, he said "I always believed in defending the rights of small nations - even my own."

Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Ireland
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 06:00 PM

I'm sure your Father did not blindly follow, he must have had reasons for his actions. He must have had an understanding of what was going on to leave for Argentina.

Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: vectis
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 06:56 PM

My Irish grandfather fought for the Brotherhood.
My English grandfather was a member of the Plymouth Bretheren and joined the Black and Tans rather than go to the Somme.
After the war my English grandfather was so ashamed of his part in the fighting (including a shoot out with my Irish grandfather, both unwounded -poor shots?) that he told no-one what he had done for 60 years.

There is one island, surely common sense dictates that it should be one nation.

Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 08:19 PM

He did what he saw as the right thing to do. None of us can do more than that.

Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 08:40 PM

ard mhacha, I was in Belfast for nearly 12 very turbulent years (1971-82). In my 54 years, I've not spent as long anywhere else except Leeds (14 years). Maybe the problem's the other way round, and you need to spend some time away from the north to get a longer view.

I know full well about Stormont from books and from people who lived through it, and I'm tired of having to repeat that I know it wasn't the most noble regime of modern times. And I know that there are many in the north now who would still go back to that, given half a chance. They are people who have a deep-seated culture, going back generations, just like most of us. And it seems that when people see a serious threat to everything they were brought up taking for granted, they are likely to behave like eejits. I'm not defending them, just recognising the problem. Also having met lots of them in cross-community sports like traditional music and motorbike roadracing, I've noticed that many of them, in any other situation, would be as decent human beings as you could hope to find.

My sympathies are overwhelmingly with the republicans and overwhelmingly against Ulster "loyalism." But I have sometimes found the arguments at Mudcat disproportionately one-sided (it seems a good bit better nowadays) so I've maybe been over-noisy putting the other side.

Of course the British empire was a Bad Thing. Of course the Ottoman empire was a Bad Thing. Etc, etc. And ultimately the Roman empire was a disaster too, because in its own self-interest it nurtured and cultivated a religion uniquely obsessed with temporal power and wealth, which grew its own empire (the so-called papal states) and even its own Gestapo: the Inquisition. Or as it was rebranded for the 20th century, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. (Orwell would have loved it.)

Much of the reaction against this church is sustained by playing on irrational fear and ignorance. But the fact remains that a united Ireland in 1972 (when a Tory statesman was advocating it) would have meant plunging the entire population of Northern Ireland into a state that was as reactionary as any in Europe, and virtually ruled by clerics who saw to it that divorce and contraceptives were illegal, and that thousands of perfectly reasonable books were proscribed if not actually burned, for the barmiest of reasons.

Of course the Republic has transformed itself beyond all recognition since then. And so is the north transformed. The church too did start on a reforming path, but soon alas backpedalled. As for the handling of child-abuse scandals, and insensitive gestures like the recent (1998) beatification of Archbishop Stepinac of Zagreb, well I can only despair that the laity put up with it. (In America, at least, they are increasingly refusing to do so.)

So if you want to keep saying your side are right and the other side wrong, ard mhacha, I am happy to keep arguing that it is NEVER that easy. And upsetting as the situation in Ireland is, there are parts of the world where similar problems have left the situation a thousand times worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 11:57 PM

Not related, but this thread reminded me of the efforts by some to resettle American slaves in Africa in the 1820s. They were settled in Liberia and in "Maryland," which was absorbed into Liberia. The descendants of these returned Negroes are a tiny fragment of the population of the country, which is one of the poorest and often beset by internal strife.

Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Big Tim
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 06:14 AM

More confused chronology I fear: the Somme was 1916, the Black and Tans were formed in 1920.

My wife's grandfather, who was a Scottish Protestant, was in the British Army and helped put down the Easter Rising. The experience turned him into a lifelong supporter of Irish republicanism. Yea folks, it's a messy, complex situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Ireland
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 06:59 AM

My sympathies are overwhelmingly with the republicans and overwhelmingly against Ulster "loyalism." But I have sometimes found the arguments at Mudcat disproportionately one-sided (it seems a good bit better nowadays) so I've maybe been over-noisy putting the other side.

Are you justifying the atrocities carried out by the republican terrorist, who by the way are responsible for the majority of deaths,Catholic and protestant?

Are you saying one terrorist group is more preferable to another?

Or are you just saying sorry Armagh I was playing devils advocate with the use of my limited knowledge and hope I do not offend you by having opinions different than yours.

How can anyone be noisy putting terrorists down, tolerating any terrorist group is what keeps N.I. in turmoil and encourages the scum that make up these groups.

You talk about throwing Northern Ireland into a state that was as reactionary as any in Europe. The problems stem from European power struggles, Ireland was promised to the English by those in power in Europe, who gave France or the Pope any right to hand Ireland over to anyone?

At that time England was doing nothing wrong in the eyes of it neighbours, it was being encouraged so others maintained their power.

Our problems stem from a total lack of understanding and a total ignorance to our history, the orange order (real eejits)would like to deny that the hated Pope was one of King Williams allies. To keep the pot going they introduced the religous divide and the rest followed. Connolly figured that out pity more did not listen.

Yes we have a twisted country it's twisted by hatred and ignorance from both sides, thankfully more people are realising there are alternatives since we have the terrorists off our backs.

There are no innocnts as far as N.I. is concerned, there have been plenty of injustices but what can we do about them now, other than condemn them and resolve not to make them again. That is going to hard to do when some among us do not look back truthfully and objectively.

Your 12 years in N.I. would have shown you that the rioting etc is in small pockets and is seldom heard of unless people are caught up in it. Glynbryne and other areas are isolated to every day life in N.I., just because there are nightly riots there does not mean we all are affected or involved. But to some bigoted people being protestant/catholic means we must know and agree with all the actions of loyalist/repub terrorists. This mindset keeps the whole thing going and is specific to N.I. and neither side can take the moral high ground and say they do not do that.

We all have to be honest and accept our failings or maybe that is a lofty ideal.

Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Ireland
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 07:16 AM

"The experience turned him into a lifelong supporter of Irish republicanism. Yea folks, it's a messy, complex situation."

It was my experiences also that has me supporting a United Ireland Big Tim, I realised that I did not want to be involved in keeping the like of Paisley in power or any bigot for that matter. I want a country where we vote for people on how good they are for the whole country not just their own wee clan.

I believe that the unionists have done an injustice to all in Ulster, we have never been able to vote for our own prime minister as such, the Unionists used the block vote to keep Maggie and others in power in exchange for certain favours.

Because these favours benefitted the unionist supporters, people were easily hoodwinked into keeping the old crowd in power. We have been foolish and fooled, but in the end if we keep having our failings threw up at the drop of a hat and the failings of those who do it ignored the result is the digging in of heels. No good for anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 07:31 AM

Quote: "No wonder the Brits were unprepared, with their one-eyed outlook on all things Irish they were caught with their trousers down."

Congratulations on a beautifully mixed metaphor.

Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: GUEST,T-boy
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 07:47 AM

If it's impossible (or a bloody silly idea) to move people from one area to another, how did the Protestant community get to Northern Ireland from (mostly) Scotland ?

Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: HuwG
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 08:56 AM

Big Tim asked "And where would the Jews, Buddhists, Muslims, etc have gone? ". There is a very old joke about the Troubles; a shopkeeper of Pakistani or other Asian origin goes to the Royal Ulster Constabulary and complains about some robbery or vandalism. The Policeman takes down his name and address and asks, "What is your religion ?". The Asian replies, "I am a Moslem." The Policeman asks, "Is that a Protestant Moslem or a Catholic Moslem ?"

The non-Christian population of Northern Ireland is far fewer (proportionally) than in most UK Cities, as is the African / Caribbean population. I don't know whether there is less racial antagonism involving immigrants from the Commonwealth than in the rest of the UK, or whether it is masked by sectarian tension.

Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: weerover
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 09:27 AM

Old gag: plane flying into Belfast, pilot's voice is heard over the Tannoy, "Ladies and gentlemen, we are about to land at Aldergrove airport. Please put your watches back three hundred years".

Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: ard mhacha
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 09:30 AM

Yes, JTT, I agree about the mixed metaphors, I had my metaphors mixed on many occasions by a kindly RUC man`s boots. Aed Mhacha..

Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 10:16 AM

I wouldn't thioughtthat was a mixed metaphor, but rather was a reference to the one-eyed trouser snake...

Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 12:32 PM

Even knowing of the many twists and turns of the history of the "British" Isles and knowing much about the current events in the North and having read extensively of the terrible events of the 1970's and 1980's, I still have a difficult time grasping the REALITY of life in the North.

Here in Franklin county, Missouri, USA, we all get along just fine. Catholic, Protestant, Jew, Hindu, Moslem, Agnostic, Pagan, Atheist. So I have a hard time believeing that it is on the basis of religion alone that the tensions and turmoil persist.

History? Here in Missouri we killed each other (as civilians) over the issues and politics of the Civil War. We were called "The Outlaw State" because of the many roving bands of bushwhackers and Jayhawkers.

Some here still fly the Stars and Bars and no one thinks much of it since it is personal expression and is seen as such.

It MUST be that someone is GAINING something from all the turmoil in the North. I cannot tell what, I cannot tell who, but the why seems plain. A People divided can be more easily ruled.

CB

Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Ireland
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 04:20 PM

HuwG says, "I don't know whether there is less racial antagonism involving immigrants from the Commonwealth than in the rest of the UK, or whether it is masked by sectarian tension"

We still find time for a bit of racism, I had Chinese friends for neighbours, and have heard the stories of what happens to the Chinese community, from both sides. This leads me to believe that no matter what, there are those among us who crave violence, and the use any excuse from being loyalist thugs to republican/nationalist pretending to fight for their cause.

We have all the ills of society but we do not let it get in the way of knocking seven colors of chicken poo out of each other in the name of a cause.

The English were never caught with their trousers down, it was the other way round, we were being treated like unruly children and some still do not realise that. Sort of like "you can't get along we will separate you".

Such ethnic cleansing is not uncommon in Ireland as many Jewish quarters in Ireland were cleansed by the Catholic church, such little incidents are ignored to enable people to take the high moral ground. Common trait on both sides.

Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Jimmy C
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 04:25 PM

I did not want to get into this thread so I will post this one message only.

I don't give a damn about what happened in the 1600's, 1700's, 1800's or the 1900's other than fro a historical view. It is what is happening today that is important. I still maintain that if the catholic population had been able to depend on the Government, R.U.C. and/or the British Army the I.R.A. would not have been rejuvenated.

Here was a situation that, from the inception of the division of the country, allowed bigoted racist unionist moneymen to wage a campaign of dastardly proportions to ensure that catholics "WERE KEPT IN THEIR PLACE", and to add insult to injury, countless Westminster Governments turned a blind eye to what was happening in the North of Ireland. Catholics being excluded from a fair and even chance of getting jobs, housing etc. Cities like Derry with an overwhelming catholic population with not one catholic representative on the city council. Protestant clergymen ordering protestants not to sell property to catholics, even old empty unused buildings (this happened to an in-law of mine barely 10 years ago). The whole system was bigoted and corrupt. The police force, the only armed police force in the so called UK, with more power than even the South Africans, had carte blance in regards to their actions. I often wonder what the nationalist population was supposed to do ?. Enough time had elapsed and the governments had enough chances to start correcting the situation but they did NOTHING - NOTHING - NOTHING.

Even more alarming is how some working class protestants were convinced that they were better off than their catholic neighbours, because the orange order was taking care of them, This was bullshit, many protestants were no better off than we were, many of them were sold a bill of goods, all for their votes.

Anyway back to my question, What was the nationalist population supposed to do ?. Have a protest march - good idea - right. Before the march was completed the marchers (including some protestants) were viciously attacked by orange bullies and the guardians of peace, otherwise known as the R.U.C. So the trouble started and spread, getting more and more violent. In comes the british army, welcomed with open arms by the catholics. Maybe we can get some help from these nice english soldiers, Didn't happen, in a short time they were invading catholic homes, busting up furniture, beating up on teenage boys and girls. All for one purpose, that was to get the I.R.A. to come out into the open and fight. The I.R.A. at that time was still in existence but not anywhere near the strength it is today. So the ranks of the I.R.A. grew ( thanks to the british army ) and the I.R.A. did come out to fight, and lo and behold this ragamuffin army of barely trained young men and women fought the great british army to a standstill. That did not sit well with the authorities, so a campaign of dirty tricks was initiated to divert the attention away from the reason for the trouble and to bring negative attention instead to focus on the I.R.A. and The U.D.A. Now the world sees it all as an Irish problem, stupid irish, always fighting over religion, and the nice British government trying to sort things out?.
We hear this word terrorist and that one Irish side is as bad as the other Irish side, that may be so, but at least this time there are 2 sides. For many years in the north of Ireland there was really only one side and that one side consisted of a bigoted police force, a bigoted B-special part-time police force, a bigoted territorial part-time army -a bigoted orange order and a bigoted government that condoned the actions of all the groups that made up this one side, all under the eyes of a government in England that was too busy with other things or apathetic about the north of Ireland to take action. So please, lets put the blame where it really belongs, right at the doorstep of the people that allowed this situation to fester. The consecutive British and N.Ireland governments and their institutions. And lets think about what you would have done in the same situation ?. Take the people in Missouri for instance, what would have happened if good jobs, housing etc were for the most part reserved for pro-union desendants and the descendants of those who were pro-confederacy were discriminated against in all facets of their daily lives, What if these people had to contend with a bigoted police force, and /or politicians. How long should they be expected to take it?, how long before they would wage a protest.?. What would they do if the national guard attacked them as a result of this protest ?. Then to have an army from another country come in and act like hoolgans ?. What are they supposed to do ?.
Or what if the people in Atlanta had to contend with an annual march celebrating Sherman's march to the sea and the destruction of the Georgia countryside ?. Now what if there were over 4,000 such marches, every year from May to October. In every little town and villlage, year in and year out, and what if the government knew that this was a real insult to a sizeable portion of the citizens and major cause of trouble, but still let the marches go on. What would the people of Georgia think, and how would they react in time. That is how it is in the 6 counties. It's not one big parade on the 12th July, it is parades all over , in excess of 4,000 parades. every single year, all celebrating bigotry and hatred for their catholic neighbours. (I know also that not all protestants ae orangmen), but almost every elected protestant politician is an orangeman. They all knew how the catholic and nationalist population felt about this yearly insult and they DID NOTHING ABOUT IT, in fact most of them took part and delivered anti-catholic speeches as opposed to pro-protestant speeches. So don't go blaming this side for that and that side for this. This problem could have been greatly diluted if the government in power had the will to do so, they didn't and look at the results.

One more thing, please no more tears about the soldiers that were killed in this conflict, they were not without blame. One of the regiments has a regimental song (I think it may be the Gloucester Regiment). This song ends with the lines " We will conquer or we'll die". Well, they came, they did not conquer and some of them unfortunately died. Just as the song said, sometimes prophesies come true.? They would not have died if they had not been in Ireland, and they would not have been sent to Ireland if their government had taken action years ago to abolish racism and bigotry from Ireland. But as long as it was in ireland they did nothing about it, only when their soldiers started dying did the english public start to take notice. Too little too late.


Pete Seeger sang a song called "Talking Union", it has a great line where he sings " If you wait for the bosses to raise your pay
You'll all be waiting till judgement day
I believe that can be applied to the catholics in the North of Ireland. If they waited till the Unionists government and the British goverment took action to better their lot they would still be waiting. The initial protest march led to trouble, the introduction of the soldiers lead to the resurgence of the I.R.A., the stupid internment plan led to many young men and women being incarcarated for no other reason except they were catholic and therefore suspect. While in prison they were taught Irish history, taught their own language, and started to see how unionist politicians and consecutive british governments did not give a damn about them. All of a sudden it was desirable to be Irish, it was desirable to speak the language, it was desirable to want a united land, all things that Nationalists wanted to happen for years but with limited success. But it all came about as a direct result of Unionist action British government inaction, and that my friends is the truth.

Slan

Jimmy

Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 04:34 PM

"...please no more tears about the soldiers that were killed in this conflict, they were not without blame."

Shakespeare put it well when he had Hamlet (I think) sau "Use ev'ry man according to hius desert, and who should 'scape whipping."

Every death deserves to be mourned. They were all, and still are, caught up in something out of their individual control, dating back before they were born even.

Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Ireland
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 04:47 PM

What an utter load of unmitigated self pity mope and whinging.

Do not mention how people made tea out off their own piss added crushed glass to give to soldiers who at that time were protecting the Catholics, smiling at the unsuspecting soldiers while they gave it to them.

If it wasn't for this or that this would not have happened, and poor people like you were totally innocent, pull the other one.

Remember the old I Ran Away, if anything the IRA prolonged the troubles and idiots like you fooled themselves into thinking they were defending you, tell that to all the Catholic victims of the IRA.

Like the loyalists it is the blind bigoted mope support that kept the Terrorists going, sentimental crap from those without the guts to do something themselves, but encourage the young of the day to put their liberty and lives on the lines. The H block was filled with terrorist who were caught at 15 -16 years of age and the majority of whom would say that they would not take the same path again.

So the poor buggars who took the action paid the cost done the time say that it was the wrong way to go about it. And what do we hear all the above mope.

We can justify ourselves all we want but that is all it is justifying our actions to soothe our conscience and make us feel better for doing wrong.

Total and utter MOPE came about by British inaction don't blame us! Bollocks!

Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Big Tim
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 05:23 PM

Would it were as simple as that Jimmy: black and white, right and wrong, us and them: then we would all understand and there would be no problem.                                                      

But think about it: indestructable force, immovable object...                                                         

The Anglo-Norman invasion (1169) was important, the Statutes of Kilkenny (1366)were important, the Plantation of Ulster (1609) was very important, 1641 was important(Portadown Orange people today still carry banners depicting that particuar massacre),which, lest you accuse me of bias, I have already pointed out, there have been many atrociies by both sides for centuries - OK a few examples: Protestant massacres of Catholics in 1641 at Islandmagee, Ballydavy (near Bangor), Lisnagarvey (Lisburn) - you want more? Perhaps a few Catholic massacres of Protestants, just for a change?                                 

Cromwell was important, William of Orange was important, 1798 was important, Robert Emmet was important, Young Ireland was important, Dolly's Brae (Protestant massacre of Catholics in 1849)was important, the "Great Fmine" was important, the Fenians were important, the Land League was important, the loyalist Covenant of 1912 was important, the foundation in 1913 of the old UVF was important, 1916 was important. The death of Sean South in 1957 was important, because somebody wrote a very effective song about it...

It's all known as history. And please, none of that stuff about history being written by winners, it's all there for anyone who can be bothered to study it, preferably with an open mind!

However, it's not the real history that is so influential, but the perception of those happenings, by both sides, and the biased and bigoted propaganda, and downright distortion and lies, again by both sides: both simplistically believing that they are "right".               

I would suggest that the vast majority of the contributors to this Thread are all victims, to a greater or lesser extent, of the events, and songs, of Irish history.

Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Ireland
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 05:23 PM

We have an inate problem while talking about N.Ireland no one and I mean no one tells the truth.

No one rioted or committed any offence except for defending their street from the Brits that were welcomed in, in the first place. Sure lets skip over why soldiers started getting the bad press they did, in the beginning the first gunman to be killed in N.I. was a loyalist who tied himself to a chimney, he was shot by British soldiers.

It was the people who allowed the IRA to re-emerge, so they could murder the very soldiers they welcomed in and were protecting them. The problems came about because the IRA were killing the very people sent to protect their community. Now this is conscrued as some sort of Unionist beligerance.

In the beginning the protestant and catholic sides were treated the same by the army, until they got stabbed in the back by the very people they came to protect. When the army started defending themselves against the IRA suddenly they are the villian of the peace, just remember the Army brought some peace and stability to N.I. it was the terrorists and their back stabbing supporters that escalated the problems.

Times were changing people were getting disgusted that jobs were advertised on religous basis and working class were just that working class no matter what religion, nothing was done to change that.The most important factor was the civil rights march Ulster people standing side by side it was the terrorist who drove the wedge in not the soldiers.

So don't weep for any terrorist as they got what the back stabbing piece of human crap they were deserved.

Will this crap solve or soothe anything,the mope can be wrote from any perspective and all it does is instill anger and gets us nowhere.

I came to this site with a sincere will to learn more of my "IRISH" side and what I have found is something completely alien to me based on half truths,bigots and those who think they know.

I was warned and did not believe, by a well known trad singer that this is not the true spirit or represents what he knows about the trad music scene. Too republican too bitter something that is only found in the likes of pubs in Boston and N.York, Irishness threw in peoples faces, rather than embracing it's audience,it kills the spirit of the music.

This is what I will do revert to my keep it away from me,want nothing to do with it and will not expose my family to it and what is it, my so called Irish side because it is just as bigoted as the "unionist" part.

Slan

Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 06:35 PM

Ireland,

Maybe you should take a leaf out of Big Mick's book and listen a bit more and rant a bit less. By presenting even your devil's advocate points as aggressively as you do, you alienate people and spark off unnecessary aggro, of which there is already more than enough to go round.

Rather than take issue with several points in your last post or others in this thread, I suggest that you and anyone else interested should read one or more of a set of three excellent books by Peter Taylor, a British journalist who has covered Northern Ireland for years, is extremely well-informed and fair-minded and does not allow his narrative of the early years of the last thirty years of conflict to be contaminated by the way things subsequently turned out. The books are companions to a series shown on BBC TV in the last couple of years, and all credit is due to the BBC for showing them.

The titles are "Provos -the IRA & Sinn Féin", "Loyalists" and "Brits", and they're published by Bloomsbury paperbacks. I suggest that anyone interested reads them in that order, which is the order in which they were published. Even if you only read the first, you'll have a far deeper appreciation of the situation than you could get even from having followed events as they unfolded, because the onset of something like peace has encouraged people to open up to Peter Taylor in ways in which they would never have done while they were still fighting. If anyone is interested and can't find them in Amazon or elsewhere, send me a PM and I'll dig out the ISBN references.