Tech: When MIDI is too picky

Subject: Tech: When MIDI is too picky
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 12:32 AM

Today I downloaded a MIDI file of a great piece by Molinaro, circa 1599. But when I looked at it using Noteworthy Composer, I saw that the timing is over-precise. By that I mean that every staccato note is recorded as a dotted note of some sort followed by a funny-looking rest. Some of the notes have three tails, whatever that is. I'm sure Molinaro wrote it using sixteenth notes at the smallest.

When I import a MIDI file, there is a dialog box which asks for note and rest resolution, so I tried telling it to use only sixteenth notes and rests. Useless. I still got the crazy durations.

Does anybody know how to deal with this kind of problem?

Subject: RE: Tech: When MIDI is too picky
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 12:35 AM

P.S. The piece is on this web page: http://www.rpajares.net


Go to it, look for Molinaro, and click on Balleto. It's fun to listen to.

Subject: RE: Tech: When MIDI is too picky
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 12:46 AM

That's a common problem with midis processed by Noteworthy; the program doesn't seem to do it very well. Its default length appears to be 100 rather than the 120 used by most other programs, so the midis often display full of unwanted rests. Doubtless other people will know how to get around that (viewing a midi generated in Noteworthy in another program, you generally have to reduce the resolution until the notes appear correctly) - personally, I gave up on it and use other software that does the job better.

Subject: RE: Tech: When MIDI is too picky
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 01:00 AM

Oh, I don't know. I have scads of pieces which I have downloaded successfully with Noteworthy. All those people can't have been playing their synthesizers with near-superhuman precision.

Any other ideas?

Subject: RE: Tech: When MIDI is too picky
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 01:15 AM

Malcolm's right, leeneia. I love Noteworthy, but it has a peculiar way of processing MIDI files. Most of the time, you won't notice the difference. When you use Noteworthy to open the MIDI, set it so it does not recognize any note smaller than a sixteenth note. That may do the trick. Otherwise, try another music software program and compare the results.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Tech: When MIDI is too picky
From: pavane
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 05:32 AM

Having written MIDI import software, I can tell you that the main problem is that MIDI does not understand notation, it just deals with Note-on and Note-off commands. If the music is captured from a performance, then these will NOT be precisely matching the specified lengths, and indeed you don't want it to, as it would sound too robotic. There can be up to 384 MIDI 'ticks' to a quarter note.
Try Quantising the MIDI file before converting it (You need a sequencer for that)

(Actually, the fault is with music notation, which is quantised, not MIDI)

Subject: RE: Tech: When MIDI is too picky
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 06:41 AM

I've yet to come accross a notation program guaranteed to import MIDI into something that makes sense as written notation. I have Melody Assistant and Noteworthy and there seems to be no way of knowing which of the 2 will achieve the better import for a particular song.

My personal preference is an old version of Cakewalk for working with MIDI. I use Noteworthy as a step to producing ABC.

Jon

Subject: RE: Tech: When MIDI is too picky
From: pavane
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 09:06 AM

Jon,
Have you tried my program HARMONY? You can download it from my web site www.greenhedges.com.

It is currently undergoing major improvements, and I could consider any proposals for better MIDI import.

Subject: RE: Tech: When MIDI is too picky
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 09:15 AM

Pavane, I do intend trying your updated program and probably will do over the next couple of weeks. I have a couple of PC problems I want to sort before I start downloading and installing new software.

Jon

Subject: RE: Tech: When MIDI is too picky
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 02:11 PM

A midi captured from performance would be far more eccentric in appearance than the one Leeneia is talking about, which was input manually from staff notation, not played in via a keyboard; presumably using Noteworthy.

Subject: RE: Tech: When MIDI is too picky
From: pavane
Date: 13 Jan 03 - 12:28 PM

Guest
If you are a tester, I hope to upload build 3.0.3 of the test version on 18th or 19th. It has many improvments and fixes suggested by a couple of diligent testers, mostly in score display/edit and abc import.

I will admit that I haven't paid much attention to improving the MIDI import lately, but I will look at it this week.

Subject: RE: Tech: When MIDI is too picky
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 04:56 AM

If every performer played music exactly as scored, all renditions would be the same. It is the little variations "leaning" on one note and slightly cutting another that makes for the interesting and often wonderful interpretations of music. As has already been said, MIDI notation allows for very fine control of note length and if a notation program is trying to translate a live (or simulated live) performance MIDI, this will happen. My ex-wife was a professional musician and when she entered music via a midi keyboard, there would always be the extra double-dotted notes, 1/32 notes and rests etc.

My music program "Personal Composer" allows me to define the shortest note to be used when taking input from a MIDI file or input device and setting this to a semi-quaver (1/16) will often sort this out. Triplets and other tuplets will often confuse notation programs, especially if they contain dotted notes. Most MIDI files which have been produced by a notation program will load accurately into another, provided they weren't produced with a "Swing", "Loose" or other interpretation feature.

Any choral singers who are looking for MIDI files to learn parts from etc. might be interested in The Silvis Woodshed which even includes some of my files.

Subject: RE: Tech: When MIDI is too picky
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 11:19 AM

Dave Bryant: Tuplets?

I just read a story where someone quoted a proverb, "Don't tell your neighbor his ram is in your meadow until he's tupped all your ewes." Is there a linguistic connection here?

I'm still baffled by the problem of the Molinaro piece,but I guess it can't be solved. As I said in the first post, I set the resolution to sixteenths, but it didn't help.

I find it hard to believe that anybody sat down and notated 8 staffs of crazy timing, either. Someday, perhaps, all will be revealed. If not, there's plenty of other music out there.

Subject: RE: Tech: When MIDI is too picky
From: Ed.
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 12:48 PM

leeneia,

Go back and read Malcolm Douglas's first post. He explains the problem clearly; Noteworthy simply isn't much good for this purpose. No need to be baffled, just use a different program.

Tuplet: "An entity or set with a given number of elements"

Subject: RE: Tech: When MIDI is too picky
From: GUEST,Malcolm Douglas
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 12:48 PM

They entered the score exactly as it was written, though dynamics seem to have been adjusted manually, and perhaps also note-durations in some cases; unfortunately, as I have already said, they used software (presumably Noteworthy) which (when exporting as midi at any rate) assigns a default note-length of 100 to a quarter-note instead of the usual 120. That is the reason for all those rests which aren't supposed to be there. This is a software issue, not a performance issue. The version of Noteworthy which I still have lying around is oldish, and will not load the nwc file in question, so I can't comment on it; but if the midi version of the file is opened in a midi editor such as Cakewalk (even old versions of it) and the resolution set to eighths, then the notes will appear more as I presume they were intended to. That may also work in Noteworthy, if you have an option to reduce the resolution to as low as one eighth.

Subject: RE: Tech: When MIDI is too picky
From: Ed.
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 01:19 PM

I've tried importing the midi into 'Cubase VST v.5' and get sensible (and presumably correct) scores from it, without stating any note resolutions.

As Malcolm says, it's a software issue.

Subject: RE: Tech: When MIDI is too picky
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 04:53 AM

Tuplet is a more general term than Triplet. Instead of having a 3 over a set of notes you could have a 5 which would mean that each of the quavers (1/8 notes) would have a value of 1/5 of a crotchet (1/4 note). You could theoretically have other values too.

Subject: RE: Tech: When MIDI is too picky
From: Pied Piper
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 06:41 AM

Hi leeneia.
I think it's really worth obtaining a copy of Cubase. I'm still using the last version for my Atari and it's great.
I think if you don't need the digital audio facilities one of the older PC versions would do.
It's a bit of a steep learning curve but it is well worth mastering.
All the best PP

Subject: RE: Tech: When MIDI is too picky
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 08:11 AM

Cakewalk is gives the timebase as 192 for this MIDI.

I tried running a CAL script on the MIDI based on Malcom's theory ,e.g.

I set the timebase to 120 - the first note I looked at on the violin staff was had a duration of 58 when it should have been 60 to make a "real" 1/8 note. I worked through all events using CAL multiplying by 60/58 and it did not work out.

I then reverted to the original and looked at what was showing as a 1/16 note. On 120, this showed as 28. 30/28 is not equal to 60/58 so by my way of thinking, we are not looking at a simple error caused by say using 100 in place of 120 unless some unfortunate truncation has occured. I've tried the same using the 192 setting.

Maybe something will come to me but for now I'm puzzled...

Jon

Subject: RE: Tech: When MIDI is too picky
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 09:02 AM

You're confusing me Jon...

The 192 that you quote is a PPQN figure, whereas I'd presumed Malcolm was talking about BPM with his 100/120 references?

Subject: RE: Tech: When MIDI is too picky
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 09:15 AM

Maybe I am confusing myself but I thought BPM is just a tempo setting in which case the length values assigned to each note will not vary. It would just be the speed at which the tune is played that changes - I THINK.

Jon