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BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the...
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Subject: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Bobert Date: 15 Jan 03 - 05:20 PM Well, when it came to Trent Lott, Bush showed he can "talk the talk" but today has fu8lly demonstarted that he can't "walk the walk". Using flowery righteous terms such as "color blind" Bush has instructed John Ashcroft's boys to file papers with his daddy's Supreme Court which in essence kill "Affirmative Action". In this case in particular, minority enrollments will drop at the University of Michagan from it's current 15% to around 3%. Yeah, 30 some years of America attmepting to level the playing field is going into the crapper! Next on the Bush/Enron/Cheney/Ashcroft/Lockheed-Martin list: Roe v Wadw, the 14th Ammendment.... then the "Emancipation Proclamation". Yeah, Bush gonna get them *niggas back in der cotton fields* and women gettin' abortions behind gas stations if its the last thing he does. And I want to know who all these folks are who supposedly think he's doing a great job? Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 15 Jan 03 - 05:38 PM Be fair, there is one minority he gives every indication of wanting to do everything he can to help. He might not call it Affirmative Action, but that's what it amounts to: The rich. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Kim C Date: 15 Jan 03 - 05:39 PM I once asked a friend, who is black, if she would rather have a job because she was black, or because she was qualified. She said she didn't want to ever get a job just because she was black. My question is, if college and/or employment applications didn't ask questions like gender or race, what would happen? If race isn't supposed to matter, why do we keep making it matter? Just curious. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 15 Jan 03 - 05:48 PM Bush got to Yale just on his exam results didn't he? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: NicoleC Date: 15 Jan 03 - 05:49 PM Well, I favor race-neutral admissions. I think dividing admissions based on racial background only excerbates racial problems, because it unfairly impacts those other races which are not on the receiving end of the bounty, yet don't have anymore socioeconomic perks than their black/latino/etc. neighbors. Once again, the lower end of the economic sprectrum ends up squabbling over crumbs and poor whites -- those who have most in common with poor blacks -- end up resenting what they perceive as special racial priviledges. Been there. As a poor white kid I couldn't compete with poor black kids, even if I was smarter or had better grades. But I also favor socioeconomic-netural admissions. I understand and support the efforts of various colleges in trying to improve their racial diversity on campus -- but this is not an issue than can be solved on individual campuses. Education is all about money in this country, and while the public school system helps it does not cure. Poor neighborhoods have poor public schools. Their students -- black, white or green -- are less qualified to get into top schools (and can't afford them anyway), so they fight over a few low-income scholarships, but otherwise the same poor kids end up at typically poor colleges, where their education continues to suffer, their job prospects are poorer as a result and their kids end up in the same boat. Blacks and other minorities are disproportionately impacted because they are a bigger portion of that lower end of the economic spectrum. That doesn't mean this is just a race issue. When we separate quality education from wealth, we'll have a solution, and we will have true equal opportunities. Dubya was a mediocre student despite huge advantages, who managed to get into a top flight school, where he continued to be a medicore student. Why? Money, plain and simple. It had nothing to do with his white skin and everything to do with his Daddy. Wonder if Bush would support blind admissions where alumni donations had no effect on the admissions process? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Kim C Date: 15 Jan 03 - 05:55 PM He got a Bachelor's Degree AND a Master's Degree on money alone? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: artbrooks Date: 15 Jan 03 - 06:01 PM Not a black-or-white (no pun intended) issue, unfortunately. It is a fact that some (but not all) minority members attend schools that are, to put it mildly, well below average. These people need, and deserve, additional assistance to get into good colleges. IMHO, this should be in the form of a tutoring program or a probationary admission, rather than the "regular" admission of an academically unprepared student who is doomed to fail. On the other hand, there are a lot of school systems that are fully integrated, in the best possible sense of the word, and minority students from these schools really should be able to compete with their peers. Is priority admission fair to the non-minority (oh, hell, let's just say white male) student who has worked his buns off in high school only to be denied admission to the university of his choice because it was necessary to make space for a less-well-prepared minority group member from his own school! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Kudzuman Date: 15 Jan 03 - 06:09 PM Yeah he did Kim. Probably will get a couple of Honorary Doctorates from somewhere before it's all over. Maybe for hiding his ineptitude and all his failed business ventures so well. He controls trade agreements for the country and that's scary. Every business he was in was either shady or failed miserably. Oh, hell, don't get me started! Kudzuman |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Kim C Date: 15 Jan 03 - 06:21 PM I was a mediocre student in college. Does that make me a bad person? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 15 Jan 03 - 07:14 PM The disadvantage of poverty strikes me as more fundamental, both here and over there. Get rid of it and in the process you help "black" people who are poor. Do it the other way round and you have situations where people from poor "white" families see rich kids given an extra advantage over them because they are "black", and that is the kind of thing that can generate race hate. That isn't to say that being well-off protects people who aren't "white" from coming up against racism, but there have to be different ways of trying to fight that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: GUEST,Forum Lurker Date: 15 Jan 03 - 07:36 PM Affirmative Action is not just unfair to poor white men, it is unfair to minorities, and inherently flawed. In order to make education and employment fair, the only thing that can be used as a basis for decisions is merit. Fundamental education reform, making it equally possible for students of any demographic to succeed, is the only way to eliminate racial or economic inequities, either for individuals or the entire population. Anything else is no more effective than a Band-Aid on the stump of an arm. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Stilly River Sage Date: 15 Jan 03 - 07:52 PM Reverse discrimination now, eh? Well, that warped argument did work down here in Texas. Let's see, Dubya is from Texas . . . The system is loaded against minorities in many subtle ways. Standardized tests are a classic example. And those are issued in public schools and are used for ranking students before they ever get to the university playing field. Affirmative Action was intended to level out some of the bias those tests create when it comes to college admissions. All those tests show is that white children do best on tests written by white administrators. I can't believe people aren't paying closer attention to the mess George left down here in Texas before they start promoting his cock-eyed programs on the national level. He and his out-of-the-same-cookie-cutter successor in office spent the state into a nearly $10 billion shortfall in the last legislature. There was originally a surplus when he came to office. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Barry Finn Date: 15 Jan 03 - 07:55 PM The Toxic Texan is riding again (remember Government on horseback, I'm back). This course of action on Affirmative Action just happens around the MLK Day. What's the message here, "I can do what I damn well please & rub it in your face while I'm doing it". The education system is in a meltdown, teacher's get squat & schools get the same & no one's bothering to even attampt to fix it (if there is a draft education or lack of it will play a role in it, who'll get the shaft on this one?). Drug compainies are swimming in quicksilver with all their new found freedoms, protections, greater control over their own trade (soon they'll replace the FDA). Meanwhile the poorer part of the country (the majority) can't decide weither to buy food or go to their dealers for meds. All this & a tax rebate to boot (buy war bonds with the huge savings) that offers the lion's share to the wealthy & to corporations while again the poorer part of the country pays a far greater percentage of the tax burden when the smoke clears (see % of taxes vs % of income). The oil companies, watch their futures soar, are depleating & killing our earth (at no coast to them, we'll pay the tab, fucked thrice, once on the cost of energy & next for mopping up their mess & last for the loss of our natural resources). If you attempt to protest against any policy you can now disappear from site without so much as a peep & who would ever know where to look for you seeing that we also just took a whipping with the Patriot Act, the new Dept. of Home Land Fencing & the illegal squandering of our rights (see the changes in our Amendments). How's your insurance company treating you lately. Rates a wee bit high, coverage a wee bit low, deductables & co-pays overwhelming? Legal compensation is capped, guess who it favors? Let's discuss the draft on 3 fronts while this lunatic (who's considered throughout the world), excepting the USA & England, as the biggest threat to world peace. That might explain the reason we're held in such high esteem or is it that we refused Canadian scientists to inspect us for weapons of mass destruction, or could it be that we just received a failing grade by world human rights organizations, or maybe it's that we're competing with 3rd world nations for the worst infant mortality rate or that we give aid to the countries with the least money, resources & the highest rate death rate. So back to Affirmative Action. Is AF just one piece of all this or is it the main issue or am I just plain crazy in thinking that Bushie has our best interests at heart no matter where the knife cuts & in the end it's all for the better, better for who? Anyone want to start a thread on foreign policy, oh shit this is part of our foreign policy. Barry, who'stryingtogoundergroundtoavoidtheshadowgoverment |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: NicoleC Date: 15 Jan 03 - 08:21 PM "We thought we could do better." "Better for whom?" "Better is always worse for some." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Kudzuman Date: 15 Jan 03 - 08:36 PM They are probably taking names and tracking this thread and your home computer so they can whisk you off in the name of the "War on Terrorism" and you'll never be seen again. Remember the "War on Drugs"? Incredibly successful don't you think? Kudzuman |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Bobert Date: 15 Jan 03 - 08:39 PM Nice rant, Barry. And I couldn't agree with you more. Funny thing. I also started a Martin Luther King, Jr. Birthday thread here today, oh, about 10 or 12 hours ago and it hasn't gotten one hit! Hmmmmmmm, Part #573? Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Amos Date: 15 Jan 03 - 10:03 PM Not only that but the hypocritical sumbitch has the asinine GALL to declare a "Sanctity of Human Life" day!!! While he is filling ships at sea with warm bodies armed to the teeth preparatory to wiping out an indeterminate amount of human life on the basis of information he claims to have but won't say what is!! GOD, that man pisses me off. To be fair, on the UMinn thing, he is simply saying that their point system tips the balance on the basis of race. This is correct. UMinn did that intentionally to compensate for the bias usually found to be preoperative in minority populations in this country, with its concomitant damage to learning and self-esteem. Bush doesn't understand that at all. Why in this GREAT country of ours, a person who has low self-esteem and impossible educational gaps in his character can STILL go on the call himself President of the UNITED STATES. Now THAT's equal opportunity for ya! A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: kendall Date: 15 Jan 03 - 10:11 PM I simply can not stand to hear that man speak. His dis- jointed incomplete sentences are bad enough, but, he is too stupid to learn how to say NUCLEAR. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Bobert Date: 15 Jan 03 - 10:21 PM Well, danged, Kendall! What's being able to talk got anything to do with running the world? Hunh? Answer me that one! Abd when it come down to the important stuff, he can just say "Nuke 'em!" He oughta be able to handle that! What else can you ask of a President? Bobert p.s. It really is a slap in the face to black folk to have him tell them that he wants 'em back in the cotton fields on dr. Kings birthday. That's real crass! But, hey, that's "pull-my-finger" Junior. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Bill D Date: 15 Jan 03 - 11:01 PM it is a sad fact that some of the cleverer conservatives have learned how to manipulate money and single-issue voters 'just' enough to gain power and pack the courts and congressional committees with henchmen. Yes, it is possible to vote them out again in 2 or 4 years, but the damage they can do in the meantime is immense! I know someone high in EPA who explains that Reagan disemboweled so many programs that they will probably never recover. Environmental issues are now on back burner/low priority, and civil rights issues are heading there fast. It is tempting for some to wave the flag real hard to distract us from the fact that the gap between rich and poor is widening every day, and shows no signs of slowing. You know the story of how to cook a frog by putting it in a pot of cool water and raising the temperature very slowly until......? The Republicans are turning into pretty good frog cookers...though they seem to be thinking if the walls of the pot are high enough, they can raise the temperature faster. It sure will be an 'interesting' couple of years. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: DougR Date: 16 Jan 03 - 12:15 AM Boberet: you are so full of BS! Discrimination is wrong! It matters not whether you are Black, White, or any other color! It's wrong! And the University of Michigan is wrong to use race in it's selection process. Bush is right on this one. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Mark Clark Date: 16 Jan 03 - 01:00 AM Even rules and even scoring is only fair when all participants are equally equipped and prepared. It's common in sports such as golf and bowling to assign an advantage, known as a handicap, to less skillful players in an attempt to even out the competition. No one seems to think this practice is unfair. In the case of university admisions, the disadvantage is often the result of economic discrimination that may be racially motivated but isn't just racial. Dr. King understood that discrimination is economic. If you live in poor neighborhoods where property values are lower, your public schools aren't as well funded. If your parents are both working two part time jobs just to keep you fed, you might have too much unsupervised time on your hands. We aren't going to fight poverty by telling laid-off workers they'd better find some way to earn their keep … they'll find a way but you may not like it. On the other hand, if we give disadvantaged kids a handicap such as affirmative action, and get them into universities, we may see the day when their own children no longer need the handicap. - Mark |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Wolfgang Date: 16 Jan 03 - 05:36 AM one of the many fine things one has to admit is the way that the Army has carried the American democratic ideal to its logical conclusion, in the sense that not only do they prohibit discrimination on the grounds of race, creed, and color, but also on the grounds of ability. (Tom Lehrer) Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 16 Jan 03 - 06:30 AM Discrimination is wrong! It matters not whether you are Black, White, or any other color! It's wrong! Agreed. But is discrimination on the basis of wealth and power excluded from that Doug? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: InOBU Date: 16 Jan 03 - 06:57 AM Well... Being one of the few here who has seen what innercity education for minorities in New York City is all about, let me shine a bit of light on the subject. I do concerts for the NYC public school system, (to be cautious, though I know our English and Irish members are well informed enough to know, but just in case, public school is the opposit institution over here...) well, there is not only racial segrigation alive and well in New York, but in the ecconomically better off New York nighborhoods, this color blind system, finds a way of getting more funding into public schools where one finds the few white kids. Let me describe a typical day on one or the other side of the pale. It is late in the school year and the temps in New York are in the high nineties. I go to a public school in Oceanhill Brownsville. You can't open many of the windows which have a mesh of steal over them like a prison. Inside the building the temperature is over one hundred, and the building is packed. Teachers and students are in a daze of heat exhaustion, all execpt the principal, who has an aircondiitoned office, the only airconditioner I see. There are not enough books for each student in most subjects kids are sharing books. We meet in a huge dimly lit auditorium, no sound system, so most of the kids can hardly hear the Uillian pipes unless they are in the first few rows - though I have a loud set, they are almost lying down in the chairs as they are melting from the heat. The food is vile, the teachers for the most part are just trying to keep order in most classes, and I know if I was a kid in this hell, I would play hooky to survive. Now we go to Asher Levey school a public school in the East Village, intergrated, airconditioned, has computerlabs, a sound system in the auditorium and good engergetic teachers, a few blocks over in alphabet city the schools are more like Oceanhill Brownsville or Bed Sty. Now counting schools like Asher, the NYPS system is mostly minority, eighty or nighty percent, Black and Hispanic kids going to schools that are 99% segrigated and neglected. For any kid in those schools to get a good score on a nation wide test, it is much more of an accomplishment, than a kid who has gotten the educational advantages of say a grace church school, where in the private schools there are small classes, 9 in a class instead of 30 - 40, school pshycologists to figure out why little billy is not doing well, ... getting 20 points on an admission test is not a racial quota it is a realistic appreciation of the barrier race causes in Amerikkka. Fact is, the baby bush wants to bring back Jim Crow, plan and simple. Some of us want to live in America. Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Mary in Kentucky Date: 16 Jan 03 - 08:41 AM It is late in the school year and the temps in New York are in the high nineties. ...perhaps a little drama there? I agree that it is possible for New York to have 90+ days in May, but not many. Here in KY we usually have 90+ days in July. I taught in an unairconditioned classroom that was unbearable when the temps hit 90. We've also had newspaper articles about schools without airconditioning...the principals make a point to not have it in their office. And you don't have to go to NY to see an "inner city" school system. My school qualified as such (based on a system for awarding federal money according to various demographic factors ie. single parent homes, racial minorities, subsidized lunches, etc.) I can tell my share of horror stories about guns, drugs, threats, poverty... Incidentally, this bit about standardized tests being unfair is often taken totally out of context and used in biased arguments. As most folks on this thread have noted, the problem is not race, but economics. A rich white kid has more in common with a rich black kid than with a poor white kid. Don't get me started on education issues. There are simply too many people (ALL politicians especially) who have never spent time (real time, extended time) in the classrooms we have today. Just because you were a student 30 years ago doesn't mean you have any idea what it's like today. Or even having children in the schools...as a parent I learned absolutely nothing compared to what I saw as a teacher. Our schools are a reflection of our society, and I feel very, very pessimistic about our future. Reforms are badly needed, but IMO cannot be legislated from the top-down. Here in KY the school system was declared unconsitutional...several years ago...and we're still "swimmin' in a mudhole!" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Bobert Date: 16 Jan 03 - 10:49 AM Doug: Read what Larry has so well presented and you may come away with a slightly more enlightened perspective. Also read my post on "Quotas" where I go into more details. I know it's difficult to blaze rather than follow but this are difficult times for Amercia that require courage to keep moving forward rather than retreating. Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Stilly River Sage Date: 16 Jan 03 - 11:07 AM DougR, have you met Beccy? Both of you have a lot of pronouncements on this topic that show neither of you has actually paid attention to what the U of Michigan people are saying about their point system. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: GUEST,Forum Lurker Date: 16 Jan 03 - 12:57 PM Very few people will try to argue that all school districts are equal. Most will also admit that this inequity usually follows economic lines, which are closely related to racial lines in many parts of the U.S. The problem with Affirmative Action is that it does not address the problem until it is too late to make a real difference. Most of the underqualified minority students who could only get in with Affirmative Action won't even apply to colleges. They will already have lost any faith in the educational system, and usually in government as a whole. Unless reform is applied to every stage of the educational system, it's not going to be fair or effective. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Bobert Date: 16 Jan 03 - 01:11 PM GUEST: Forum Lurker: Danged. I just finished a post of the sister (brother) thread about the Bush's "Education Reform" legislation (Haha) so I won't repeat everything. But, while you are correct in your assessment that we are not doing a very good job K-12, this is not a valid arguement for scraping the University of Michigans's admissions policies. Quite the contrary. Until we do fix the terrible inequities in the public school system, it is very imporatnt that these policies stay in place. Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: GUEST Date: 16 Jan 03 - 01:24 PM I started out teaching in inner city schools. This was my way of helping less fortunate folks. I lasted 10 years. Then I left because it was either that or kill some of the political leaders in that city. I could write VOLUMES that many (most?) on this forum simply would not believe. Suffice it to say that Larry gives some insight, but his post is way too mild. It is MUCH worse that that. There were two types of teachers in the high school where I taught. One group (mainly older teachers who only wanted to survive, not teach) who had an agreement with students: Don't bother me and I won't bother you. In those classes, nothing was done. When a supervisor came in to evaluate (about once every 5-6 years) the students agreed to behave and listen for that day as long as they could go back to whatever they did the next day. There was no money for supplies. My salary was approximately the same as minimum wage, yet nearly one-third of that meager amount I spent on supplies and materials for students. Oh, yeah; the population was approximately 80 percent Black, 10 percent Mexican, 0.01 percent white, and the rest other. After the first year, several of us used to go to workshops held in the predominately white schools, just to get in classrooms and steal everything we could carry because they had so much extra and we had nothing. To go into detail about unequal treatment of students in the white vs minority schools would fill several volumes. Larry, you gave a good account DougR, you are so pro-bush that you wouldn't/couldn't recognize the truth if it hit you up 'side the head - or even lower! Been There - Done That - don't dare dwell on it now or I'd loose my sanity. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Stilly River Sage Date: 16 Jan 03 - 01:29 PM
Forum Lurker, that's an awfully depressing view of things. As someone employed in one of the larger state universities in Texas I have to note that our campus has a very healthy mix of matriculated races, ages, and nationalities. This university has a lot of remedial programs in place to address these inequities, recognizing that not all students had equal opportunities to excel at their previous schools. Also, test scores often only reflect one's ability to take tests (and it isn't just minority students who shudder at the prospect of taking these tests). A passion for learning can overcome a lifetime of educational or social obstacles, if you give students a chance. We also recognize that teaching isn't limited to the classroom, and where I work in the library, anyone who wears an identification tag is expected to answer questions when asked, or if unable, find the right person who can answer it. This policy gives all of us the occasional opportunity to see it "click" for students. It's a sight to behold, when all of a sudden something that was a stuggle makes sense. It can be as dramatic as the lightbulb analogy. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: DougR Date: 16 Jan 03 - 01:56 PM Bobert: you are so off-track! Discrimination cannot be defended regardless of color. The qualified white students at Michigan State have as much right to a superior education as those of other colors. If you don't see that, then I think you are wearing blinders. McGrath: there is nothing wrong with being rich, and there is nothing wrong with having power. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Bobert Date: 16 Jan 03 - 02:04 PM Doug: I really didn't expect you to get it. Perhaps you need to reread many of these posts for content rather than just be waiting your turn to parrot Bush's PR crapolla. And I'd rather be *wearing* blinders than to be blind, my friend. But I still love ya' there, Dougie, even if you are a knothead at times. Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 16 Jan 03 - 02:16 PM But you said you were against discrimination, Doug, and nothing involves as much discrimination as money. Ending a system by which having a lot of money and power means that your children have an enormous advantage at every stage of their education would not be easy, true enough. It would at the least mean putting an enormous amount of extra resources into the schools in poor areas, and into all kinds of other things. It'd be quite a challenge for any society to do that. But the richest country in the history of the human race could do it, if it wanted to, and if it really believed in an end to discrimination. And then the rest of the world might follow. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: PeteBoom Date: 16 Jan 03 - 02:23 PM Ummm.... DougR, it was the University of Michigan that is being challenged. Michigan State University has a similar policy, as do quite a few institutions of higher leraning in the States. The problem is that if they did NOT have such policies, they were accused of being racially biased against minority students based on cultural biases. Now then, having worked at one of the two Universities named above, and having a daughter who recently graduated from the other one, I'm going to throw in by tuppence. It is all well and good to aim for a diverse student population. It is also well and good to not have any quotas at all. The fact remains that both schools have "automatic admits" to the undergraduate programs - and by the way, unless I've remembered wrong, the suit was over admission to the Law School, not the undergraduate program. Along with those, there are the folks who simply are not qualified for admission - poor exam scores, low grades in high school, no "other" circumstnaces. There are also students who are admitted under controlled circumstances - that is, borderline academics, sub-par in some cases, but good athletes in the money sports. Then there are the bulk of the population. These are the folks that someone has to look hard at before admitting or rejecting. The "not qualified" folks are normally reviewed by hand (unless things have changed in the last couple of years, which I doubt) to make sure they are really not up to snuff. These reviews don't take much effort, in reality. The rest of the folks take a LONG time to review - and that is where the problem comes in. If there were really "set" hard and fast rules, there would be no need for people to soft through the information they do when making a decision. You could program a computer to make all the decisions and that would be that. It takes the human being to work on the details and to deal with the sticky stuff. Like most things, the people who take their jobs very seriously put a LOT of thought into the process. Others don't. Finally - these same Universities get regularly charged with being biased because the minority/tracked student retention rate does not always fit what some ya-hoo thinks it should be. That is, kids wash out. They don't cut it. Somehow, it is the University's fault if this happens. One of those schools name above had a hard-and-fast rule against first year undergrads having an automobile on campus. The published reason was because of the lack of parking. While this was a problem, the BIG reason was the number for students who took the car, went home and did not come back after the first major set-back. The retention rates shot WAY up after instituting the rule against cars - even though they were accused of bias by INSTITUTING the rule. Seems you can't please everyone - sometimes, ya can't please ANYONE. Cheers - Lunch is over - Pete |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Nerd Date: 16 Jan 03 - 02:39 PM Just posted this to the other thread, but here it is again with some changes brought on by further reflection and editing. DougR, I really don't think the system is anything like people imagine it to be when they argue that "equally qualified people" have "the same right" to be at a given institution. People just don't understand how admissions work in colleges. Admission is not, and never has been, only about "scholastic merit." If it were, you would not need admissions officers or interviews. All the work could be done by a computer. Every high school in the country would have a rank that ramified your GPA, then your SAT score would be plugged in, and an algorithim would decide who got in. In fact, admissions officers in good schools work very hard not to pick the people with the highest scores on everything, but to create an interesting community of smart, creative people who can learn from their differences. A certain number of people more gifted in sciences will be admitted, and a certain number more gifted in arts. A certain number of women and a certain number of men. If you play an instrument, or play a sport, you have an advantage, and if you have a certain hobby that can contribute to the campus (say, acting), or a certain perspective (say, you're a well-spoken proponent of vegetarianism, or a political activist of any persuasion) this can all count in your favor. Ethnic background is another element in this mix. It benefits both white and black students to have both communities represented, even if the black students scored lower averages. Putting together a first year class is an art, not a science. To argue that this process is unfair is silly. It never, ever has been fair, but the government doesn't step in until they see a way to promote right-wing values through political positioning. It's unfair that Johnny's hobby of stamp collecting doesn't count for as much as Jimmy's hobby of football. But you won't see Bush filing a brief hostile to sports recruiting. In a country where science education is facing increasing challenges, kids who excel in sciences are advantaged over kids who excel in arts, because there are other kinds of "quotas" too (an imprecise and misleading way to characterize this point system). A person with a GPA of 3.3 whose strongest subject is Chemistry will likely be chosen over a person with a GPA of 3.5 whose strongest subject is English. Is this fair? I think if anyone sat and thought about it for more than a second, they would realize that a peer group chosen only because they scored highest on tests and schoolwork would not necessarily provide the best environment to learn in. So other factors need to be taken into account, not only to "help out" disadvantaged people, but also to make a vibrant, intellectually challenging environment. Having white privileged kids actually meet and interact with less privileged black kids can have a major effect on the lives of both groups--sparks can fly in both good and bad senses, but it's always eye-opening! So Affirmative action does much more than help minority students, it brings the issue of racial discrimination and racial privilege to the attention of kids at an impressionable time. You can't get more educational than that! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: InOBU Date: 16 Jan 03 - 03:43 PM Re: "...perhaps a little drama there? " No, I assume it was late in the year, may have been early. After many many concerts they run together. I can tell you that in hot weather, no matter what the honorarium, when I get it, it is not enough for me to feel happy about the effort to go out into some of the most disadvantaged places in New York, but I go. The time that really sticks out in my mind is the one I mention above, when it was WAS over 100 in the building. I don't do well in hot weather, and I can tell you, it was horrific. It may have been early in the year, or late, but it was a heat wave and it was unhealthy. I truely believe that good people like DougR whould understand if they saw a New York Public school in Bed Sty or Ocean Hill, or Statin Island on a bad day - not the bad day for neglect, that is every day, but the days when it is a phiscal challenge to go to school, then anyone would understand. I watched one school go down hill on Statin Island. I went there every ear for almost two decades. I watched the decline of intergration and the abandonment of the system. Teachers became jaded, and joked in the teacher's lounge about kids they saw hooking after school. It was a junior high. They finally discontined the program where I would come and play music and talk about folk culture. I also, after law school would speak to the LD classes about the potential for overcoming learning disablities, though, I had a hard time believing that it was the LD that would be the big barrier for these kids. Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: DougR Date: 17 Jan 03 - 04:42 PM Nerd: you and Peter both make excellent points. I have not been involved in University "politics" and both of you have, so I bow to your knowledge. I can see where students need to be rated on more than just academic grades in High School. I can see that a diverse student body would be an advantage to the students and to the faculty. I would argue, though, that the University in question (University of Michigan)gives too much weight to genetics. Twenty out of a hundred points, in my opinion, is just too high. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: DougR Date: 17 Jan 03 - 04:52 PM McGrath: I didn't intend to dodge the remarks you directed to me about money and power, I just forgot to address it in the previous thread. This is a subject that we will never agree on. You embrace a socialist system and I, a capitalist. I do not have a lot of money. I guess I would be considered to be middle class financially. I have no power (except over myself). I have had it in some of my jobs, but I don't miss it, don't want it; I am retired. I do not envy or feel discriminated against because I am not rich and I certainly do not feel discriminated against because I do not have power. Further, I feel no anomosity toward those who have a lot of money, and I feel the same about people who have power. Neither, in my opinion, are sinful, and neither are against the law. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Ebbie Date: 17 Jan 03 - 05:18 PM Doug, musician Buddy Tabor wrote a song that moves me and which is representative of probably a great many people in this USA. It says that his daddy worked every day of his life to support his family and rented the same house for 40 years. Never could afford his own, even though he dreamed out loud of the day that he could. His father dies, and his sister donates a space six feet by three for his burial, so that finally, his daddy owns a piece of land... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 17 Jan 03 - 05:57 PM I wasn't actually implying a socialist solution to the problem. A system in which large numbers of potentially useful citizens are wasted because the education system and the health system is in trouble. If it's a capitalist society, then it can come up with some capitalist solution. But the children of the poor do not get the same chances in life as the children of the rich - and that is discrimination. If it were "You can't have books in your school library because you are black" it'd be recognised as such. But when it's "You can't have books in your school library because you are poor, and your parents are poor, and your school is poor", that's discrimination too. And you don't have to be a socialist to hate that kind of thing, and to find ways of ending it. Isn't that the kind of thing "compassionate conservatism" is supposed to be about? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Donuel Date: 17 Jan 03 - 06:12 PM If Bush calls it a quota system then it is a quota system. Plain and simple. If Bush says stem cells are babies that are being killed by scientists then by God we have got to put a stop to it. If Bush says that Saddam has a nuclear bomb then its high time this country wises up and sends our proud volunteer army of blacks to clean up Iraq. Our white performance enhanced pilots will be there to clear their path. If Bush says screw yourself then you are duty bound to do it. Mandatory volunteerism, secret tribunals, war, whatever it takes to make America great once again after those dark decedant Clinton years of depravity. If Bush says he is sick and tired we should take him at his word and lay off him once and for all. Disagreement is dissent, and in war - dissent is treason. So if you have a problem with Bush or this guy Jim Crow it is best you get out of here while the getting is good. This country will soon be for loyal Americans and not the sniveling drug crazed liberals that caused this country to be attacked in the first place. (its not hard to argue with people who believe all the above, but to debate ? - IMPOSSIBLE.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 17 Jan 03 - 06:35 PM If Bush says screw yourself then you are duty bound to do it. I'm reminded of this, which I heard one time, and I've no idea where it comes from. But it's always struck me a very well articulated: "Shit" said the King. And since the King's word was Law, a nation strained as one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: BlueJay Date: 18 Jan 03 - 05:06 AM Well, back to the topic of this thread. the DenverPost.com is not cooperative, so I can't provide a link, but Ruben Navarrette, Jr. did an opinion piece on 1/17 about Bush's re-nomination of judge Charles Pickering for the fifth circuit Court of Appeals. According to Navarrette, this judge argued all the way to Janet Reno for leniency for a guy who burned an eight foot cross on the home of an inter-racial couple, and then fired a few gunshots into their house for good measure. The Democratic Senate denied Pickering, but the shrub insists he is a good judge. With the present bush-surgeon-hero majority of Congress. it looks like he'll get confirmed. How any judge, regardless of political party could condone leniency for a guy burning a cross and firing gunshots into a house with innocent adults AND CHILDREN inside is beyond me. That Bush thinks that this is "his type of judge" doesn't surprise me at all. If any of you "conservatives" can explain how this is all good for minorities, I'd be grateful. Thanks, BlueJay |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Deda Date: 18 Jan 03 - 06:07 PM I heard on PBS the other night that Dubya was rejected as an applicant to the University of Texas (Austin?) the very same year that he was accepted into Harvard Business School. I guess the Bush name has more pull at Harvard than at UT. Good for UT. This is called a "legacy admission" -- where you get in because Daddy and Daddy's Daddy are good check-writing alumni. As someone said earlier, affirmative action for the rich. Maybe it should be called Negative action. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Bobert Date: 18 Jan 03 - 09:17 PM It's okay, Donuel. It's okay. McGrath. It's okay, Deda, BlueJay, Ebbie, and others. After spending my day in bitter subfreezing temperatures marching against Bush's thirst for blood, for Bush's vision for America with another couple hundred (at least) folks it has become very clear to me that Bush *can not* win. Sure, lots of minorities will suffer from governemnt supported discrimination. And minorites and poor whites will be sacrificed to Bush's thrist for power with their blood and lives. But when the light comes on these people will unite and use the weapons of boycott and national strike to bring down Boss Hog and all his Enron pals. So, I'm kinda hoping that Bush just continues to pour on his right wing, ruling class crapola so that he and his anti-human values will be exposed for what they are. Yeah, we need to get these folks in the rear view mirror so that we can go back to what we used to do: try to find fairness in our little experiement. Yeah, we need for white kids to look around their classes and wonder what the leaders did.m These kids *know* the deal. Yeah, there maybe a few squeaky white kids who will bring suit to further their parent's agendas but the majority will prevail. Segregation is not progress! And any thing that disrupts our sincere attempts to make a better country is not progress... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Sam L Date: 19 Jan 03 - 01:54 PM It's not just economic disadvantages, it's race, or at least the idea of race. Whatever else is on a resume, whatever experience or qualifications, in the U.S. a black-sounding name will get many fewer call-backs. That's how it is whatever any one cares to think, whatever pet theory or lofty-sounding ideal.So what if trying to balance this involves racial discrimination--so what? Is it tainting our cultural purity on that score? Suddenly everything is ideal except for the unfair advantages that minorities have? It would be a good idea to just shut up with that garbage, it insults the intelligence of everyone anywhere near it. Bush is wrong. He'll fail, but do harm while he's at it. It's all right that our system elected him for a term; the fact that most people who voted weren't behind him will undo him, all the more, the more he ignores it. I'm still exhausted from trying to be respectful of ideas I don't really respect, on some other threads. It wasn't worth it, wish I'd just said what I really think. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Ebbie Date: 19 Jan 03 - 05:30 PM Fred, despite your politeness in those other threads, I think your message came through clearly to most of us, and kind of confused the others. Well done. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Jan 03 - 05:51 PM True enough, at any economic level a black kid is likely to be at a disadvantage against a white kid in a country with that kind of racism (such as the USA and teh UK). But regardless of colour, a poor kid is likely to be at a disadvantage compared to a kid from a comnfortably off family. It seems to me that, since there's a disproportionately high number of kids who are both poor and black, tackling it at that level makes sense. |