Folklore: Folk and Psychic Cures, Faith Healing.

Subject: Folklore: Folk and Psychic Cures, Faith Healing.
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 18 Jan 03 - 12:42 PM

Thought I'd use the "Folklore" prefix for this, just because....
If it's actually "BS" to Rael and the Joclones, please change it, I won't be upset (in this life)

I saw Jim Krause's thread on arthritis, and how quickly some folks came in with their suggestions. Hope this situation gets better Jim, it must be scary as WELL as painful.

For a couple of years I lived across the street from a "Doctor" (in Suburban Montreal) who made and sold LAETRILE. He may have "invented" it, I don't remember.

What I DO remember was my Dad (a pharmaceuticals guy) cursing him out big time, for stealing huge amounts of money from 'gullible' souls who were dying of cancer, and were willing to try anything to save their lives.

Was there actually any benefit in Laetrille? Did it help in any other research?
I remember the Comedian Andy Kauffman going to the Phillipines for "psychic surgery", and if I'm not mistaken this was long AFTER 60 MInutes (and James Randi) had exposed it as a total fraud.

I know that thousands of folks still go to Lourdes (and other similar places) for healing, and I guess as long as ALL these things revolve around money, and local economies, as well as faith, folks will keep going. Even today there are at least three TV programs a week with Evangelists who claim to 'heal' people live on the air. Some of it is sad, some funny and some, just plain scary (Like the indescribable Benny Hinn)

BUT...BUT....would I be right in thinking that if 'someone DOES believe' wholeheartedly, they may WELL get healed in a 'mind over matter' thing?

Any experiences, anecdotes, etc?

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: Folklore: Folk and Psychic Cures, Faith Healin
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 18 Jan 03 - 12:56 PM

Ya may as well put yer money in magnetic therapy, psychic surgery or phrenology...

"if 'someone DOES believe' wholeheartedly, they may WELL get healed"

Sure there's spotty anecdotal evidence to support that, but there's more evidence to support the existance of UFOs... and they're not real either..

Do some very few people seem to heal for no reason? sure... And maybe one day we'll figure that out...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Folk and Psychic Cures, Faith Healing.
From: Maryrrf
Date: 18 Jan 03 - 12:59 PM

Yes, there is something to faith healing - the "Laying on of Hands" and such. Much of it has to do with the patient's "belief". The mind is very powerful, and if someone is truly, truly convinced that they will be cured or helped, I believe that in some cases (not all, certainly) they are. Folk remedies are a different story, but the best ones often cost very little to make and there's usually no harm in trying them out. Now that you've reminded me, I'll post a couple that have worked for me under Jim's arthritis thread.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Folk and Psychic Cures, Faith Healing.
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 18 Jan 03 - 01:05 PM

Ahaaah! "MAGNETIC THERAPY". That stuff is ALL over the tube these days. Saw a sober looking man in a white coat telling me that "HIS" vibrator's magnets were MUCH more powerful than the competition.

Is that connected with the whole 'copper bracelet' thing that a LOT of athletes wear....or is that something different entirely?

I know that the "electric shock" things that enthusiastic small Oriental men have been flogging on the Tube for the last three years have come under a fair bit of scrutiny. Did ya know you can read about the same cures in the old Sears Catalogues from the turn of the century?

Rick

Subject: RE: Folklore: Folk and Psychic Cures, Faith Healing.
From: catspaw49
Date: 18 Jan 03 - 01:11 PM

Geeziz Rick, where the hell have you been? Didn't you see the post I made about Magnetic Healing? Always happy to post it again as it proved to me that magnetism does work!!!! AND itincludes your half-brothers, the Reg boys................

Paw's flattulence when combined with his passion for 'shine and hot wings used to be a big problem for him whenever his roids would flare up....so to speak...and it got to the point that little rubber donut pillows and Preparation H just weren't doing the job anymore. Clete's 6th wife was into all the weird and wacky cures so Cletus was always coming to Paw with his suggestions that he'd heard from her. When Cletus told Paw about acupuncture, he disappeared for about two weeks and I'll be damned if anyone could find him.

The Reg Boys too had their share of wacky cures for everything from the Great White North of Canada, but most of them involved bear grease and other vile and foamy liquids. Then it happened. The whole lot of them were watching my TV down in the den one night and had been subjected to at least nine hours of infomercials while they slugged down Iron City. I had learned from experience to unplug the phone and hide my credit cards on these nights which only took place when Karen was gone. I'm still paying for that quonset hut in the Aleutian Islands and I have the complete collection of Pan Flute Favorites so I have learned, albeit slowly. I think the one that finally got me was the "Great Michigan Getaway Weekend" which they bought and gave to Karen and I for an anniversary present. It was a month before I found out that they had billed it to my Visa and when we went for "rest and relaxation" in beautiful Michigan, it turned out to be clapped out motel run by a Pakistani in downtown Flint, just across from a closed GM factory.

I guess it was about 5:30 AM when Cletus woke me up and said they had the cure for Paw's hemorrhoids. This was more than I wanted or needed to know at 5:30 so after verifying that it wouldn't cost me anything, I said have at it and went back to sleep. When I woke up about 7 I had one of those vague feelings of dread. You know what I mean? Nothing was wrong that I could think of and yet I just felt the world was going to come after me that day. It turned out to be Old Man Rafferty instead....but I'll come to that.

The "boys" arrived back at my place about noon having already left when I woke at 7. They were lugging some huge electric motors into my garage and looking about for tools when I walked in and asked what the hell was going on. Cletus then launched into their "cure" and the reasoning behind it. It seems they had watched an infomercial about the "healing power of magnetism" and saw immediately that this was the way to fix Paw's 'roids. Slowly it all began to come together for me and I began to wonder how in the hell these guys could even remember how to breathe!

In any case, they'd picked up the motors from out back of Bernie's Electrical Supply and were now going to remove the large magnets inside. They idea was to cut a slit in Paw's rubber donut, insert the magnets, and then duct tape the thing back together. I noticed that Buford had an old jockstrap (with cup) that they evidently were going to use to strap the magnets to Paw's ass, again using liberal amounts of duct tape. Listening to Cletus explain all of this and their newfound theory made me begin to question my own existence, as though I really didn't exist in the world I had come to know, but was simply a bit player in a leftover Rod Serling story.

Things started going downhill pretty quickly as the magnets were removed and now were flying across my garage, affixing themselves to various steel things....like my van, my lawnmower, my golf clubs, and a little steel reinforced concrete rabbit that someone had once given us as a joke. I figured that I was going to be better off if they'd finish up somewhere else so I suggested they take all the stuff and head for the pleasant little roadside picnic area on the edge of the village where they could finish rigging Paw up and with any luck, I'd never know anything more about it. After removing the magnets, scratching the hell out of my van, breaking off the head of a 5 iron and the left ear of the rabbit, they left. The picnic area was only about a half mile off, just a bit down Rt.664 and I told them to let me know how it all worked out.

Curiosity is a terrible thing sometimes and about an hour later I grabbed my Weimaraner and his leash and set out as though I were just walking the dog. As I turned on 664 I saw the Boys all walking towards me from the little picnic grove. Paw's ass seemed to be a bit large and he was walking funny, but from a distance I could tell they must have done a good job circling his ass in magnets because outside of a slight limp and a big bulge at the rear of his bibs, Paw looked pretty normal. Then it happened. Trailing the others, Paw walked past Old Man Rafferty's mailbox, a new heavy duty steel one to foil the kids with cars and bats. He first slowed, stopped, then flew backwards and before you could say "dumbfuck" he was hanging from his ass on the mailbox. Ol' Man Rafferty was washing his aging Electra deuce and a quarter and looked up to see what was happening. By that time, Cletus, Buford, and the Reg Boys all were tugging on either Paw or Rafferty's mailbox and though they got him off the mailbox was smashed in and the pole was a goner.

Well I tell you, Rafferty came flying down the drive, gravel spitting up from his shoes, and swearing a blue streak. Paw was laying about 10 foot up the drive where he'd landed after the force of being ripped from the mailbox sent him sailing through the air. Rafferty bent over him and started yelling in his face and Paw was trying to stand up but being weighed down by the Magnetic Ass-Healing Ring. I got up there and tried to get Rafferty to calm down some as the others stood around looking bewildered. Rafferty started blaming me for allowing such "dumbass shitkickers" to stay here and how I should let them rot somewhere else. Before he could say another word, things continued to deteriorate. Paw had gotten to his feet about 15 feet from the Buick and there was a loud clanging thump as one of the hubcaps flew off and affixed itself to Paw's rump. Rafferty grabbed the hubcap and started pulling for all he was worth swinging Paw round and round in a circle. The hubcap folded and broke loose and Paw landed by the side of the road while Rafferty began to rage about his rump-sprung hubcap and twisted mailbox. I got out my checkbook and with a stern look to Cletus asked how much this would cost to keep from calling the police. The sight of my checkbook calmed Rafferty down and my Weimaraner had gone over to the side of the road and was licking Paw's face. Rafferty calculated a sum which I figured was enough to buy a new set of tires and an exhaust system for the Buick and build a brick mailbox, while forcing me nearer to bankruptcy.

Cletus and the rest were circled around me as I handed Rafferty the check and when I turned to go, I saw Paw had gotten to his feet again and was bent over stroking Jaeger's head. The dog has always had a soft spot for Paw and when I whistled for him he reluctantly came back up the drive. Bending over to pick up his leash, I heard Cletus say, "Aw Sheeitt!" Right then I couldn't imagine how things could get worse, but I looked up just in time to see Paw lifted from his feet and his ass attach to the exhaust stack of a passing Peterbilt. I watched as the truck roared off, Paw flailing around and in a blind spot where the driver couldn't see him, and the dumbass Reg boys waving "bye-bye" as the Pete rounded a curve down by the Hopewell place.

We found Paw at the truckstop at Rt.37 and I-70 where the driver had stopped for fuel. When we arrived, the Magnetic Ass-Healing Ring was nowhere to be seen and Paw was sitting on a bag of ice trying to cool the burns from riding 27 miles on an exhaust stack. But I tell you what.....Perhaps it was the scar tissue from the burns that did it, but Paw hasn't had trouble with 'roids since then. Maybe there is something to the power of magnetism.....................

Spaw

Subject: RE: Folklore: Folk and Psychic Cures, Faith Healin
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 18 Jan 03 - 01:14 PM

There is absolutely NO good hard evidence that magnetic therapy, copper bracelettes or any of that nonsense works at all...

Has that stopped people from using them and claiming they get results?

Not even a little bit...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Folk and Psychic Cures, Faith Healing.
From: Jeri
Date: 18 Jan 03 - 03:55 PM

Clinton, there's loads of evidence that belief works, if not the actual doo-dads.

See The National Cancer Institute's page on Laetril. Apparently, it may work a little. The main anti-cancer ingredient seems to be cyanide, which is anti-people too. Here's the main page on complementary/alternative treatment. No faith healing mentioned though.

Here's the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine.

I don't believe in miraculous cures. It doesn't mean they can't happen, but then some folks have them without doing anything special. I DO believe the mind can help a great deal. We know we can slow down or speed up our heartbeat and change our blood pressure. If we look at all the physical problems that can result from mental stress, we ought to be able to produce beneficial results as well. I've heard of meditation and visualization used as part of standard therapies for various things.

Doctors are a lot less dismissive of various alternative treatments these days. One doctor I had (the one who suggested taking Feverfew for migraines) said basically, if it does no harm (financially, physically or mentally), why not consider it? Some things have never been tested and you have to figure out if they sound reasonable. Some things have been tested and the results aren't well-known or easy to find. I think most treatments, faith-healing (and there never will be an effective study on that) or otherwise, that cost a bundle have a built-in fraud alert system.

People who simply believe they're doing something effective often get results. See this page on the Placebo Effect. From that page:

"Doctors in one study successfully eliminated warts by painting them with a brightly colored, inert dye and promising patients the warts would be gone when the color wore off. In a study of asthmatics, researchers found that they could produce dilation of the airways by simply telling people they were inhaling a bronchiodilator, even when they weren't. Patients suffering pain after wisdom-tooth extraction got just as much relief from a fake application of ultrasound as from a real one, so long as both patient and therapist thought the machine was on. Fifty-two percent of the colitis patients treated with placebo in 11 different trials reported feeling better -- and 50 percent of the inflamed intestines actually looked better when assessed with a sigmoidoscope ("The Placebo Prescription" by Margaret Talbot, New York Times Magazine, January 9, 2000)."

Subject: RE: Folklore: Folk and Psychic Cures, Faith Healing.
From: khandu
Date: 18 Jan 03 - 04:48 PM

Believe what you will, disbelieve what you will. It is your life.

In 1979, Doctors discovered a tumor on my kidney larger than the kidney. I checked into a hospital at 119 lbs and 6'5" in height. My doctor said my future looked "grave". (Wonderful choice of words!)

I had just received my "calling" to the ministry. I knew that if God wanted me to be a minister, then I must be alive to do it, therefore, I knew I would not die.

With no surgery, no therapy, no medications, with nothing but "faith", the tumor dissolved, and I am still here, with no kidney problems.

Do I believe in the TV preachers who put on their weekly "performances"? No. Do I believe in the magnetism, the copper, the shock or whatever else comes along. No.

I do believe that once I was dying but now I am living!

khandu

Subject: RE: Folklore: Folk and Psychic Cures, Faith Healing.
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 18 Jan 03 - 05:17 PM

That's wonderful, Khandu. Keep living and believing...you're very blessed. As are we all, of course...

In my first week of medical school, one of the professors said to our class, "Half of what you'll learn in the next four years will turn out to be inaccurate, incomplete, or wrong ten years from now. The problem is, we can't tell you which half." Western scientific medicine does not have a lock on the truth. Can thought, or faith, or laying on of hands, heal illness? Absolutely. Can drugs and antibiotics and surgery heal illness? Absolutely. They're two sides of the same mountain, as far as I'm concerned, and they work best when used together, with intelligence and compassion. Neither one is a "miracle cure" or "quick fix". Nor, for that matter, are magnets, or crystals--or Prozac, or the Purple Pill. But people keep selling them, and people keep buying them. So it goes.

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: Folklore: Folk and Psychic Cures, Faith Healing.
From: catspaw49
Date: 18 Jan 03 - 05:30 PM

Ahhh.....You're a real beauty Mark........Thanks.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Folklore: Folk and Psychic Cures, Faith Healing.
From: khandu
Date: 19 Jan 03 - 12:11 AM

A previous thread addressed "Mississippi Folklore". Some interesting reading can be found here

khandu

Subject: RE: Folklore: Folk and Psychic Cures, Faith Healing.
From: Mudlark
Date: 19 Jan 03 - 01:47 AM

I've never been fortunate enough to feel the power of healing hands, but I had a vet in Arkansas that demonstrated just that on my animals. Granted, he couldn't cure death, but it was amazing how much he could do, by just handling them. He was inarticulate with humans to the point of weirdness but he sure had something going with other animals. And there was no "faith" involved there, but the animals immediately quieted in his hands and often improved remarkably from only that.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Folk and Psychic Cures, Faith Healin
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Jan 03 - 07:33 AM

My mother fed us onion tea for colds. Also warm vinegar and honey. She would smear a pink lotion, the name of which I've forgotten, on our chests and keep it on by taping an old (clean) diaper on top. Vicks Vap-o-rub went into the "steamer."

All of which cured us. In a a week or so we were well, just as we would have been without it all.

Fortunately for us, she didn't use some of the other, folklorist documented, "cures" from that part of the world. Stuff like washing your face in well-aged urine for acne, or coating your face with fresh cow manure for the same thing. We did use band-aids for cuts (although mercurochrome or tincture of iodine was used "to prevent lockjaw"). And when home remedies failed, there was the hospital -- where I was taken at age 12 with a fever of 104 degrees (F) and febrile hallucinations because of pneumonia.

Antibiotics cured what witch hazel rubs and such-like had failed to fix. I think that it was after that that the various teas, etc. started to fall from favor.

I think that the mind and body are a whole, and one influences the other. Many of the cures used -- antibiotics among them -- are derived from naturally-occuring substances. But when I needed hand surgery I went to a surgeon....

Subject: RE: Folklore: Folk and Psychic Cures, Faith Healing.
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 19 Jan 03 - 11:47 AM

For at least the last thirty five years, I've heard that echinacea (sp) was absolutely effective in preventing colds. Being the complete Phillistine that I am, I never bought it....however, MANY bought it on my behalf and INSISTED I take it. Now I wonder if THEIR faith that it would work, helped the process. I'll never know of course, 'cuz my colds all got better. A month ago I read that all the scientific studies say that Echinacea simply doesn't do ANYTHING. So....whaddya do? I'm fully willing to believe that the medical establishment is corrupt and profit driven....but so what? So's everything else, including the 'faith-healing biz'. Certainly the "Alternative Health industry" is 'profit-driven' as well. Those little bottles in the Health store can cost a bundle.

Off topic but absolutely neccessary to remind folks: Clinton...IS an alien....as am I. Nanoo.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Folk and Psychic Cures, Faith Healing.
From: Maryrrf
Date: 19 Jan 03 - 12:09 PM

I've worked in two jobs that involved, to some extent, marketing to "alternative" health industry wholesalers and retailers. In the first place it was cosmetic/shampoo/detergent ingredients, mostly mainstream but we had a few "natural" ingredients, in the second place dried fruit and nuts, some of which were organic. Make no mistake, the "alternatives" are just as profit driven, if not more so, than the mainstream health industry and WILL NOT HESITATE to make false promises - so watch out for those claims. There are some honest people in the industry, such as the organic farmers who eke out a living, but they are mostly poor and precariously hanging on. I frankly mistrust most of the claims. This doesn't mean I won't experiment with a folk remedy here and there, or take some vitamin C, (or that I wouldn't go to a doctor and get a prescription, for that matter)but for the most part I'm sceptical of the supplements, megavitamins, etc. For example, most of the "herbal ingredients" in shampoos, conditioners, et, whether or not they are "natural" do absolutely NOTHING for your hair, and that I can guarantee! If you find something and it works that's great - but if you really get caught up in all the supplement/herb hype you can spend a bundle !

Subject: RE: Folklore: Folk and Psychic Cures, Faith Healing.
From: Jeri
Date: 19 Jan 03 - 12:18 PM

Rick, some studies show Echinacea doesn't work and some show it does. I wouldn't trust one study or one opinion on anything. From that National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine (NCCAM) site linked to above, on a new study:

"Our hypothesis is that the variation in reported clinical effectiveness may be due to differences in the phytochemical profile of the Echinacea preparations used."

From this page:

Problem sources in the data:

Distinct flavor unblinds study: subjects know if they are taking Echinacea or placebo based on taste.
Method of extraction is variable between studies and not standardized.
Sample population was not representative of general population.
Recall/Reporting/Observation bias
Funding sources: Proctor and Gamble, the makers of Nyquil and Dayquil, funded on of the studies against Echinacea.
Regulation and dose standardization: there is no standard measure of dosage.
Three species: different studies used different species.
Part of plant used: different studies also used different parts of the plant.
Roots vs. Upper Plant

Conclusions:

Effectiveness is inclusive
Would not discourage use

Personally, considering there really aren't any side effects and it didn't cost me anything, sure I'd try it. I started taking it in Nov and haven't had a cold since then. Typically, I would have had at least a couple by now and there have been some going around. So maybe it's the echinacia, maybe there are other reasons. I don't really care - I'm just glad I haven't had the usual miserable sniffle-season.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Folk and Psychic Cures, Faith Healing.
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 19 Jan 03 - 12:24 PM

Did I mention that Heather bought me a crystal at the Nomad festival ten years ago (a 'cold preventing crystal, by the way) to hang around my neck. I laughed naturally, but after six months when I hadn't had ny usual three colds, I was scared to take it off!!

I'm a less confidant alien than Clinton!

Rick

Subject: RE: Folklore: Folk and Psychic Cures, Faith Healin
From: Amos
Date: 19 Jan 03 - 12:35 PM

Clinton:

With all due respect, sir, as I generally hold your opinons in high esteem, I am moved in this instance to take the opportunity to say that you, Sir, are talking out of your ass.

As to the documentation of cases healed by conviction/placebos, etc., calling it spotty and anecdotal is indicative that you simply have not done your homework.

If you would like a reading list, I will be happy to provide one.

A

Subject: RE: Folklore: Folk and Psychic Cures, Faith Healin
From: *daylia*
Date: 19 Jan 03 - 01:11 PM

Rick I'm a real believer in echinacea, especially when combined with goldenseal for boosting the immune system against colds and flu and relieving nasal congestion. I've been using it for the last few years with excellent results - I've only 'caught' about two, very mild and short-lived colds. And I'm a private music teacher, so I get exposed to the germs going around at least a dozen different area schools every week!

Hint - use the echinacea (not the goldenseal!) as a preventative measure regularly if you want to build up your immune system. And use the combination at the first hint of cold symptoms - don't wait until it really kicks in! Once your system is over-run with 'bugs' the herbs don't work as well in my experience.

I do have quite a bit of experience with a couple of the so-called 'new-age' energetic healing techniques - Reiki and Therapeutic Touch. I can tell you that without doubt SOMETHING very mysterious and physically tangible happens during these treatments - and the effects vary from person to person. I've found that some people, and some conditions seem to be more readily affected by these techniques than others. Reiki in particular is very effective at stopping bleeding and pain from small injuries, and preventing infection too.

But I'm throwing out a huge CAUTION sign here! The energetics behind these techniques are not well understood even by the practitioners themselves. I suffered greatly after I took my first attunements in Reiki a couple years ago. Something very subtle but powerful about me and my energy changed dramatically - and I'm not lying or overstating the facts of my experience here!

For the first time in my life I started to feel all the aches and pains and fevers - even the emotions and 'foreign' attitudes and thought-patterns of the people around me, as if they were my own. It was very sickening, very frightening, very draining and VERY confusing. It got so bad I dreaded being around anyone, dreaded going to public places. Made it very difficult to continue working as a teacher too.   
Started isolating myself from others, afraid of what I started to call 'people-vibes'. And I was getting more burned out all the time. Went from someone who went running five times a week to someone who could barely make it up the stairs.

I ended up having to take a whole year off to recover my own health - physical mental and emotional. I thought I was going insane, that I'd ruined my health permanently, and for the first time in my life felt like I really wanted to die. It was very scary, and a condition I wouldn't inflict on my worst enemy (if I had one!)

The people who came to me for 'healing' more often than not most happy with the results - their flus and pains would usually be relieved - but I'd end up sick myself - with their symptoms!! - in short order. Again, I'm not kidding you - this is the truth of my experience. Little Hawk can vouch for this - he was one of those people I 'healed' of a flu only to develop it myself within a few hours! And he witnessed a good portion of my experience with my first "Reiki Master". I don't practice Reiki with anyone but myself these days - and it IS very relaxing. As long as I'm alone.

I still struggle with it (the new 'empathic' sensitivities) but it's getting a lot better as I've learned how to 'ground' myself and clear my energy from unwanted influences on a daily basis. Those techniques should have been taught to me by my first Reiki 'Master' - but he had his own agenda (power-over-others and manipulation!) - as I learned most painfully later.

As it was, I'm so grateful for the 'divine help and protection' I received during that awful period of my life. I will never doubt again that 'angels' DO EXIST!! I would probably be pushing up daisies today if they didn't - and I don't care if no-one believes me!

And I'm so glad I found some talented practitioners with real integrity who helped me 'save my life', quite literally. Went all the way to Vancouver Island to find them during that year off. I knew if I'd gone to a regular doctor with my problems I'd most likely have been sent up to some psych ward and 'treated' with mind-bending drugs - which I'm sure would only have aggravated my condition!

And I'm most gratefully back to work now, much wiser and a lot less willing to trust ANYONE with the subtler aspects of my being!

I do have lots more real-life related experiences I could share here, but right now I'm going to get out the boots and umbrella for the deluge of s*** I just may have attracted already!

Healthy blessing to all!

daylia

Subject: RE: Folklore: Folk and Psychic Cures, Faith Healin
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Jan 03 - 01:50 PM

I will simply say that I HAVE seen evidence that the human mind can do many things we do not understand yet. It may, under certain conditions of strong conviction, actually produce it's own healing chemicals and pain relief.

It is also understood that we have barely tapped the possibilities of 'natural' drugs from various plants....research needs to continue.

Having said that, you can guess how sceptical I am of many specific claims. There are far too many quacks and entrepeneurs out there wanting to cash in on our pains and fears.

I knew a nice fellow who hosted wonderful gatherings for my wood collecting group. Several years ago, as one gathering was ending, I came upon a discussion as he was extolling the virtues of 'magnetic therapy'. He was wearing them in his shoes, around his wrists...etc. He said he was feeling much 'better'. I did not ask what he was feeling better about.....but a few months later, I found out. He had cancer, and the Magnet folk had touted their products as 'useful'. They were not....he died VERY rapidly. What does this prove? *shrug* Just that cures and 'feeling better' are very nice, but that it is important to be pretty durned sure about how we attribute causation.

When my mother-in-law was very ill, she had a woman bring to her house a complex gadget that was attached to her with electrode-like clips and various 'readings' taken to establish what her body was lacking....then it fell to me to drive her to appointments with homeopathic doctors and 'pharmacies'..(you can imagine how hard I had to bite my tongue).They gave her half a dozen pills and liquids. She died a few weeks later of congestive heart failure, still believing that the 'alternative' meds could do what her cardiologist could not.

There is much to learn.....but there is also much danger in trusting all the 'maybes' too much...............

Subject: RE: Folklore: Folk and Psychic Cures, Faith Healin
From: *daylia*
Date: 19 Jan 03 - 03:15 PM

Bill I'm so sorry to hear about your mother-in-law. Again with regards to any 'healing' modality - regular or 'new age' - the best motto is caveat emptor - let the buyer beware! Be VERY aware!

Regarding the power of the mind over the physical, there have been several documented psychological studies over the years about the phenomena of 'voodoo deaths'. To quote from the text "Biological Psychology - Fourth Edition" by James Kalat (pg. 458):

"Almost everyone knows of someone with a strong will to live who survived well beyond other's expectations or someone who gave up and died of a relatively minor ailment. The extreme case of the latter is voodoo death in which a healthy person dies apparently just because he or she believes that some curse has destined death.

Such phenomena were generally ignored by scientists until Walter Cannon (1942) published a collection of reasonably well-documented reports of voodoo death. A typical example was a woman who ate a fruit and then was told that it had come from a taboo place. Within hours she was dead.

The common pattern in such cases was that the intended victim knew about the magic spells and believed that he or she was sure to die from them. The person's friends and relatives also believed in the hex and began to treat the victim as a dying person. Overwhelmed with a feeling of hopelessness, the victim refused food and water and died usually within 24-48 hours. In some manner the terror and hopelessness led to death. (for more examples see Cannon, 1942; Cappannari, Rau, Abram, & Buchanan, 1975; Wintrob, 1973). Similiar examples occur in our own society - not people who die because they believe they are hexed but people who sometimes die quickly because they expect to."

He goes on to explain that these deaths may occur through a mechanism such as scientist Curt Richter discovered while studying the swimming ability of rats. He found that if a rat's whiskers (critical to it's ability to find it's way around) were cut off immediately before being thrown into a tank of water, the rat, normally an excellent and tireless swimmer, would swim frantically for a minute or two and then suddenly sink to the bottom, dead. Autopsies showed that the rats had not drowned; their hearts had simply stopped beating.

Why the sudden death? Apparently the combination of the dewhiskering operation and being immediately thrown into a tank of
water terrified the poor creatures so that the parasympathetic nervous system (which governs the body's natural 'fight or flight' responses like elevated heart/respiratory rates in reaction to threatening situations) was overstimulated, and the rats suffered massive heart failure in response to the perceived 'hopeless' situation. If the rats were given a few days to get used to being dewhiskered before being thrown into the water, or if they were 'rescued' (pulled out of the water) a few times during their first swim, they did not die but swam strongly as rats usually do!

Anyway, sorry to go on so long but I find this pretty interesting 'evidence' of the power of the mind - of what is BELIEVED to be true - over both the life AND death of the physical body! And these studies are rather dated now - there's probably many more available today!

daylia

Subject: RE: Folklore: Folk and Psychic Cures, Faith Healing.
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 19 Jan 03 - 07:50 PM

One thing that's always amused me is the idea that "boosting the immune system" is one of the holy grails of many people who espouse "natural" health. If you really boost your "immune system," you may wind up with rheumatoid arthritis, or lupus, both fo which are manifestations of overactive immune responses. In fact, the most natural way to boost your "immune system" is, simply, to exercise it--by becoming exposed to viruses, bacteria, and other outside antigens. There are some interesting studies suggesting that the incidence of allergies (another example of an inappropriately stimulated "immune system") is lower among people who grew up in conditions that were less than scrupulously clean and sanitary than among those who were kept away from "germs" from infancy onward. (Now, before we all go rolling our babies in dirt, let's recall that the incidence of serious and possibly fatal infections in infants and children also tends to be higher under those circumstances. Everything's relative.)

Also, a person's ability to withstand infection depends on a number of different factors besides the "immune system," including nutritional status, virulence of the infecting organism, local tissue conditions, fatigue, mental state, etc., etc.

By the way, the reason I put "immune system" in quotes is that there are actually a number of different body mechanisms that work to respond to foreign proteins (and not always in harmony). It makes as much sense to talk about an "underactive immune system" as it does to say "your guitar is flat." (Yes, I know that there are circumstances in which that would make sense: if you had tuned it correctly but used a bad tuning fork...or if it had just been run over by a truck. The analogy still holds.)

And one of my closest friends is a naturopathic physician.

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: Folklore: Folk and Psychic Cures, Faith Healin
From: mack/misophist
Date: 19 Jan 03 - 08:57 PM

Perhaps Dr Cohen would prefer the term "exercise your immune system". For many years and for no particular reason I have been certain that a regular exposure to bacteria, etc, help keep a person healthy. Any system works best when it's in regular use.This past year I've even seen a few articles on the subject. One by a doctor who grew up in India and emigrated to Westchester, New York was especially interesting. He said that children in India had better health than his own, pampered children. His conclusion was similar to mine.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Folk and Psychic Cures, Faith Healing.
From: Jeri
Date: 19 Jan 03 - 09:47 PM

I had all sorts of childhood diseases there are now vaccines for, and I was very fond of dirt. I've never had any type of bacterial skin infection and I haven't had anything worse than a sinus infection or strep throat in my whole life since then. I don't know if my childhood exposure is connected to this or not, but it would make sense.

I remember my mother dragging me off to play with a neighborhood kid when she found he had chicken pox so I'd get it and become immune. Didn't catch it, but I got a very bad case when I was 16. I think this may have been a common practice back then. You did not want to come down with some of those things when you got older!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Folk and Psychic Cures, Faith Healing.
From: khandu
Date: 19 Jan 03 - 10:03 PM

Yeah, I had chicken pox at 16, then after a three day respite, damned measels. Wasn't a fun time!

k

Subject: RE: Folklore: Folk and Psychic Cures, Faith Healin
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 19 Jan 03 - 10:17 PM

Shazbot Rick, you've blown our cover!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Folk and Psychic Cures, Faith Healing.
From: JennyO
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 12:51 AM

I came to the same conclusion as Mark Cohen and Misophist years ago, when I noticed that my mother, who was fanatical about germs and wiped everything with disinfectant, was always coming down with stomach bugs, and I, the rebel who never listened to what my parents taught me and lived a disgustingly normal life among the dirt and germs, never seemed to get sick.

If we listen to what our bodies are telling us, we can learn a lot.

Daylia, I was interested in your story about the Reiki attunement. It certainly shouldn't be like that. I'm glad you found ways to clear the blocked energy, which no doubt was doing a lot of harm.

I have a friend, a shaman, who has developed a new version of an old technique for clearing the density around feelings and negative energies and beliefs - not just current ones, but very old ones can be accessed as well while doing past life regression or Soul Retrieval. She calls it Quantum Dynamics. She was doing workshops and I was training to be a practitioner with her. Unfortunately she had a stroke a few months ago, and is just now managing to struggle to her feet. She still can't use her left hand and her eyesight is still very bad.

Her name is Kiana (Diane) Park. Unfortunately she doesn't have a website, but I could tell you more in a PM if you are interested.

Jenny

Subject: RE: Folklore: Folk and Psychic Cures, Faith Healing.
From: Kaleea
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 02:01 AM

The thing is, the mind is an amazing thing. There will always be examples of people who believe in the cure--be it medical, herbal, religious or whatever, and therefore are cured. Then there will be others who will not respond to these things. Was it real for the ones who were cured? Of course! There were, after all cured or helped. Sometimes the miracle is that we are better able to deal with our illnesses or dillemmas because of our faith. However, I suppose that I must mention the following story:
My Grandad, who lived in the hills of eastern Oklahoma, (passed on over 10 years ago) had an old fishin' buddy whose kids insisted that the buddy go to the Dr. about some "bad places" on the skin of one of his legs. The Dr. told the buddy it was skin cancer, & would have to have surgery to remove it. The buddy told the Dr. & the kids that they didn't know what they were talking about! He then went home & went for a walk & collected some of what the old timers refferred to as "Wild Weed" Which is an indigenous plant (although illegal) to that part of the country. He then made a poltice out of it & used it on the cancerous places. When the old buddy went back to the Dr. for the pre-surgery checkup, the Dr. was amazed because--you guessed it! The cancer was almost entirely cleared up, with only some scaly patches.    So, did the "herbal" or "naturopathic" treatment work? Duh!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Folk and Psychic Cures, Faith Healing.
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 02:57 AM

The placebo effect is often kind of spoken of as though it were something to be mocked- in other words, 'it was all in your head'. But another way of looking at it, it seems to me, is that if we paid attention to the remarkable ability of the mind and body to cooperate we might be able to routinely utilize the placebo effect. Wouldn't it be wonderful, when something is obviously wrong, to know that given the proper way to present the problem to the body, it can heal itself!

Of course, I do realize that the body usually is is able to heal itself with just an occasional bit of help from outside. But that is the natural course of events and that is not quite what I'm talking about.

Maybe someday there will be teachers (again!) to instruct students in how to access this force?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Folk and Psychic Cures, Faith Healing.
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 04:23 AM

Ebbie, you're absolutely right. Andrew Weil made exactly the same point many years ago--it might have been in his book "Health and Healing." He said that the National Cancer Institute should put its money into studying wart cures. A wart is actually a kind of a tumor that is triggered by a virus and that seems to be "hidden" from the normal immune surveillance mechanisms of the body. Once the body realizes it's there and doesn't belong, it's easily disposed of. The interesting thing is that many effective "cures" for warts work largely through suggestion: in effect, the mind tells the body to "wake up" and get rid of the wart. If we could figure out how to do the same thing with other, more dangerous tumors, we'd be in pretty good shape. I've long believed that most of what we doctors do (whether we practice "standard" Western medicine, Chinese medicine, homeopathy, naturopathy, or what have you) is simply to activate the body's natural healing process.

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: Folklore: Folk and Psychic Cures, Faith Healing.
From: JennyO
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 04:51 AM

YES!!!! Ebbie and Mark Cohen. I believe our minds and bodies work together in ways that people have scarcely even begun to imagine. The mind is a very powerful force, and has already been proven in lots of ways to influence how our bodies react.

The trouble is a lot of people think this is a lot of new age nonsense, when in fact, it would be very strange indeed if a single organism such as a human being didn't have all its components working together.

Jenny

Subject: RE: Folklore: Folk and Psychic Cures, Faith Healing.
From: Grab
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 08:20 AM

Mudlark, I was listening to the BBC's tame doctor, Dr. Mark Porter, on Radio 2 the other day (this is UK radio BTW). Someone had phoned in asking why, if homeopathy/acupuncture/magnetic wotsits/etc are all placebos, do these things all show some response in animals? since animals obviously can't be made to "believe in" something.

The reply was surprising. According to Mark Porter, animals show an even greater placebo effect than humans do. So what they "believe in" isn't a specific therapy, it's more the fact that a kind human is doing things.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Folk and Psychic Cures, Faith Healing.
From: Jeri
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 08:42 AM

I had a wart for years and had tried all the usual stuff. Went to Texas and it was simply gone when I came home again. I have no idea why - maybe it didn't like the climate. The dermatologist I'd been seeing had suggested the potato treatment - you rub half a potato on the wart and bury it at midnight under a full moon. He said (not laughing at it anywhere near as much as I) those patients of his who'd tried it had found it much more effective than his methods.

The problem is, doctors might be able to use this element of belief in their practice, but it isn't kosher to fool patients. I think where it does come into play is when patients have confidence in their doctors and whatever threatment is being used. They can suggest ways for patients to use their minds and their abilities to believe (visualization, meditation, bio-feedback, etc), but they can't prescribe sugar pills or paint food coloring on warts and claim those things will work.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Folk and Psychic Cures, Faith Healing.
From: JennyO
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 08:51 AM

I can think of a very good reason why animals would respond better than humans - because they don't know how to dis-believe, as we do.

Only us cynical human beings would insist that nothing is real without evidence and proof. In fact, our cynicism could be seen to be interfering with the healing process.

Because their belief (or lack of) played no part in the results, there was no placebo effect.

You might want to conclude that the response is a result of kind humans doing things. I guess that depends on what sort of response you are talking about.

Or you could choose to drop the cynicism for a moment, and allow for the possibility that the treatments actually worked.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Folk and Psychic Cures, Faith Healing.
From: Maryrrf
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 08:53 AM

Interesting story about the skin cancer - my friend from Georgia told me the same thing about his grandmother. Somebody had been diagnosed with melanoma. He was a kid at the time and she had him and his brother gather up large quantities of some kind of "weed" - he doesn't remember what it was called - she showed him what it was and made him gather as much as he could find. She made this into a poultice and after a couple of weeks her patient's skin cancer was gone - just left a scaly patch like in the post above. Of course this is another anecdote and there's no scientific proof - (was it really skin cancer, etc. etc.) Just thought I'd pass it on.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Folk and Psychic Cures, Faith Healing.
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 10:44 AM

While one has to sort through a lot of garbage in the so-called "new age," there is a lot of "old age" out there which has great validity. Some of it has been taught on a fairly private basis and delves into the scientific application of metaphysics.

Rick, this is a wonderful thread and I am really glad to see it has been handled so well by most everyone. It is a welcome change.:-)

I think I've already posted enough, in old threads, of what I've experienced with the subject, but I would say I read a lot of wisdom in this thread and agree with most of it.

kat

Subject: RE: Folklore: Folk and Psychic Cures, Faith Healing.
From: GUEST,Davetnova
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 11:16 AM

I can't speak for the veracity of any cures. But I can speak for the ability of state of mind to affect wellbeing.
Many years ago, during the break up of my first marriage, I suddenly doubled up with excruciating pain while walking down the street. This passed after a short while but of course returned. A visit to the GP returned a diagnosis of a stomache ulcer and referral to hospital for tests. Afew weeks later, the symptoms continuing, I arrived at the hospital, the consultant poked around, discovered my ulcer, told me it was massive, had a few students poke at it, all commenting on the size, and gave me a barium meal and an Xray. There was nothing there. The symptoms cleared up as I got over the stress of my break up.
But over a period of amonth myself, my Gp the consultant and his students were all convinced that I was gravely ill. No doubt a faith healer would have cured me quite easily.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Folk and Psychic Cures, Faith Healing.
From: Wolfgang
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 11:32 AM

Whatever I'm dropping in this thread it won't be my ability to read and to understand the implications of the small print in the methods section of articles.

(1) The placebo effect works great in animals and small children as long as the caretakers and/or evaluators are led to believe that a real treatment is given. When the caretakers/handlers/evaluators are blinded (don't know which treatment is given to the child/animal) there is no placebo effect in animals or small children to speak of as far as I know. I'd be extremely grateful if someone could point me to an article in which what I have written here has been found wrong.

(2) The placebo/nocebo effect is real but far from understood. It is, however, difficult to use. Imagine you tell someone "I'm givin you a placebo now and hope you support that treatment with belief and positive feelings". You'll find close to no placebo effect with that information. Even in a group who is told that they either get a medication or a placebo but that neither they nor the doctor will be told the placebo effect is much smaller than usual.

(3) There is a very interesting variant of placebo studies not well known outside of science. You give them the treatment (whatever it is) but tell them they are in the placebo control group and only get a sugar pill. If now the effect is just as large as in a treatment group who are informed that they are in the treatment group you know that for this particular treatment there is no placebo to speak of. If the effect in a real placebo group (they get a placebo but are told it is a treatment) is weaker than in the get-the-treatment-but-being-told-it-is-a-placebo group we know that for this treatment there is more than a placebo effect to account for. Too few treatments in medicine show an effect that is larger than that of a placebo control group. So in many cases 'wait and hope' is not only the cheapest advice but there is no better yet.

(4) As for the treatments Clinton has listed I know of not the slightest evidence that the effect is larger for the treatment group than for the placebo control group, though of course the effect is often found to be larger for the placebo control group than, e.g. for a do-nothing-about-it group or a wait-list control (though of course the size of the effect depends upon how it is measured with placebo having a larger effect with more subjective measures). Here too, I'd be grateful for any article showing otherwise.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Folklore: Folk and Psychic Cures, Faith Healin
From: *daylia*
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 11:48 AM

JennyO thanks for your understanding! I certainly would be most interested in learning more about your friend's 'Quantum Dynamics' techniques of clearing blocked energy when you have time for a PM.

I did not intend to bad-mouth Reiki as a healing modality! I know that I was simply not taught properly to begin with, and that at the time I was also overloaded with stress from taking on too many new physical responsibilities and dealing with unresolved 'family stuff'. One thing I learned is that I'm definitely not Wonder Woman - and for the first time in my life that's just fine with me! :-)

Regarding exercising the immune system - I agree that the best way to boost it is to use it! The herbs can be useful as a supplement, but imo the best defence is a healthy lifestyle - proper diet, fresh air, exercise, rest and healthy ways of dealing with the inevitable stress of everyday life. When I get slack with any of those things, no amount of herbs or supplements will stop my health from suffering!

Also, here's a little story about warts seeing as there was speculation about them above. I have a 9yr old cousin who's a figure skater, and she'd been plagued with plantars warts for a couple years. Her Mom, a RN, had been taking her to have them 'burned off' every week for about a year, and when I saw her foot last Christmas I was horrified. It was one big mess of red, inflamed sores and the child was in constant pain.

They asked me to give her a Reiki treatment - I guess at that point they were willing to try anything before she had to quit skating altogether. Due to my experiences with Reiki I was very reluctant, but at their urging I consented. I gave her about six treatments in the space of about three days, and was most pleased that I didn't develop the sore foot myself! Must have been doing it right for a change!

But the biggest surprise was when they phoned me couple weeks later. Her Mom - the registered nurse with a large amount of scepticism about any 'new-age' healing technique - told me the sores on the child's foot were TOTALLY HEALED - there was no more need for any more chemical treatments, and they were most grateful.

I was so shocked I drove the hundred miles back to their place to see for myself - and the child's foot was pink and healthy! There was only the faintest hint of where those sores had been. I figured that the constant 'assault' of burning chemicals on her skin over such a long period of time had simply depleted the child's natural ability to heal herself, and that the Reiki treatments - (Reiki is simply universal life-force energy) - had recharged her 'batteries' so to speak, enabling her body to finally heal those wounds. Amazing!

But the sad part was, when I had the chance to talk to her in private the child herself had mixed feelings about her warts being gone. Seems she missed the attention she got from her busy parents, the time off school for the doctor's appointments, the deferential treatment from her figure-skating coach. Our 'sicknesses' sometimes really 'pay off' in ways we are not always conscious of. Maybe that's why we 'hang onto them' longer than necessary sometimes, and create new ones when the old illnesses are 'healed'.

daylia

Subject: RE: Folklore: Folk and Psychic Cures, Faith Healing.
From: Socorro
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 12:53 PM

I learned firsthand how powerful "energy-healing" is.
As an R.N., I used to be mildly amused at people "smoothing out their auras", but i was forced to take a class in Therapeutic Touch one day (at work!) and what i experienced was so powerful and so positive and so amazing that it started a process which ended up changing my life - vastly for the better!!
I am grateful to daylia for pointing out some of the negative possiblities of such power in less than scrupulous hands.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Folk and Psychic Cures, Faith Healing.
From: Socorro
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 01:40 PM

Also, thanks to Mark Cohen for pointing out potential risks of unbalanced immune-stimulating.
I have a sister now dealing with a mysterious set of serious ailments which has been called Lupus with possible non-Hodgkins lymphoma.
I wouldn't be surprised if injudicious use of trendy immune-stimulators has been a part of her health regimen.
I hasten to say that the problem I see is not with the products, but whether they are used wisely. I would call it unwise to use them as first-line health regimen, in place of the common-sense (and non-dangerous) methods that have already been mentioned.

In those I include: healthy simple foods(preferably organic), moderate (not compulsive) exercise, adequate rest, effective stress-reduction regimen, trying for true self-awareness (includes moderation in use of mind-altering subs, & making your peace with God and people - and music does almost all these things for me!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Folk and Psychic Cures, Faith Healin
From: *daylia*
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 08:21 PM

" In those I include: healthy simple foods(preferably organic), moderate (not compulsive) exercise, adequate rest, effective stress-reduction regimen, trying for true self-awareness (includes moderation in use of mind-altering subs, & making your peace with God and people - and music does almost all these things for me!"

Socorro I'm with you all the way! Thank you for mentioning *music* as perhaps one of the greatest 'healers' of all! And thank you too for pointing out the beneficial and powerful effects that 'energetic healing' techniques are meant to have, in 'scrupulous hands'! I'm VERY grateful to have worked with some of those!

It's encouraging to hear of Therapeutic Touch being taught and used in hospitals too. To have access to gentler, natural methods of pain relief etc. must be a real blessing for registered nurses and patients.
And surely as mainstream medical practitioners become more interested in and familiar with alternative methods of healing, knowledge about them will grow and 'abuses' will be less likely to occur.

daylia

Subject: RE: Folklore: Folk and Psychic Cures, Faith Healing.
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 11:36 PM

When I trained as a nurse's aid, many, many years ago, it was mandatory that we give each of our patients a backrub at night. We were well trained in it and it always helped them. I am amazed that this has been lost in modern hospitals and understand it is due to a lot of changes in what is expected of staff.