BS: Germany and France are not Europe

Subject: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 09:34 AM

Donald Rumsfeld, Bush's secretary of defensce effectively lost all the respect and credibility the US used to have in Eurpope and NATO.

In an effort to marginalize the announcement that Germany and France will not buy into the Bush plan for world war, he said that Germany and France are not Europe, they are the old Europe and that the US has the support of all the Estern block countries of the NEW EUROPE.

Officials from Germany have called Donald Rumsfeld irrational and I suppose french waiters can't wait to spit in his food.

Our secretary of defense (twice now) knows all about bio warfare. He was instrumental in pushing bio weapons on Saddam during the Reagan administration. He is still trying to clean up that mess. Lets look at his history.

In 1973, he left Washington, DC, to serve as U.S. Ambassador to the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) in Brussels, Belgium (1973-1974).

In August 1974, he was called back to Washington, DC, to serve in the Ford Administration successively as:

Chairman of the transition to the Presidency of Gerald R. Ford (1974);
Chief of Staff of the White House and a member of the President's Cabinet (1974-1975); and, as
The 13th U.S. Secretary of Defense, the youngest in the country's history (1975-1977).
From 1977 to 1985 he served as Chief Executive Officer, President, and then Chairman of G.D. Searle & Co., a worldwide pharmaceutical company. The successful turnaround there earned him awards as the Outstanding Chief Executive Officer in the Pharmaceutical Industry from the Wall Street Transcript (1980) and Financial World (1981). From 1985 to 1990 he was in private business.

Mr. Rumsfeld served as Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of General Instrument Corporation from 1990 to 1993. A leader in broadband transmission, distribution, and access control technologies for cable, satellite and terrestrial broadcasting applications. Mr. Rumsfeld returned to private business in late 1993. Until being sworn in as the 21st Secretary of Defense, Mr. Rumsfeld served as Chairman of Gilead Sciences, Inc.

During his business career, Mr. Rumsfeld continued public service in a variety of posts, including:

Member of the President's General Advisory Committee on Arms Control - Reagan Administration (1982 - 1986);
President Reagan's Special Envoy on the Law of the Sea Treaty (1982 - 1983);
Senior Advisor to President Reagan's Panel on Strategic Systems (1983 - 1984);
Member of the U.S. Joint Advisory Commission on U.S./Japan Relations - Reagan Administration (1983 - 1984);
President Reagan's Special Envoy to the Middle East (1983 - 1984);

In his current role as Goering he has fortunetly shot himself in the foot and has placed it deeply within his mouth.

Perhaps he is an asset to the peace movement because of his strident imperalistic fascism.

Subject: RE: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Alice
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 11:18 AM

It is incredibly frustrating to have people controlling our government who would make such a ridiculous statement. May we survive the Bush administration with its lack of diplomacy and abundance of arrogance.

Subject: RE: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Charley Noble
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 12:41 PM

I'm sure that Rumsfeld is just real bitter that France and Germany have no zeal for his master plan. I doubt if he really believes that the Czech Republic and Bulgaria can make up the loss. But you can't call him a quitter. Too bad we can't parachute him into Baghdad...

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Germany and France are not Europe
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 01:38 PM

I'd question whether ordinary people in countries like the Czech Republic or Poland, for example are really that gung-ho about making war on Iraq, any more than we are in the United Kingdom.

Don't go mistaking what governments will do to curry favour with a rich patron, and the wishes of what ordinary people, who know what war and bombing means.

Yes, they know about tyranny in Eastern and Central Europe - but I don't think there were ever many people in those countries duringntye Cold War who wanted to get liberated by a massive air and land attack that would flatten their countries.

Subject: RE: Germany and France are not Europe
From: alanabit
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 03:05 PM

I wonder if someone might politely (or even impolitely) suggest to Mr.Rumsfeld that America is not the world. There are some of us out here - and indeed in the USA itself - who believe that the world's best interests are not synonymous with the needs of American arms manufacturing corporations.

Subject: RE: Germany and France are not Europe
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 03:15 PM

I believe that most workers in the arms divisions of American companies are unionized. War always means full employment and overtime. What is the attitude of the unions and workers towards war? It does no good to blame just corporations.

Subject: RE: BS:Germany and France are not Europe
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 05:07 PM

Rumsfeld is a strange critter....he is intelligent and experienced and he can be charming, witty, and quite aware...yet he will occasionally drop the most amazing, inept silliness into a rational debate...

he worries me...

Subject: RE: BS:Germany and France are not Europe
From: Peter T.
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 05:13 PM

When you think of how the Europeans responded spontaneously with support after September 11th, it is extraordinary how ineptly these guys have handled what was essentially four aces.



yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS:Germany and France are not Europe
From: alanabit
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 05:27 PM

Indeed it does not do any good just to blame corporations, Guest Q. Now I wonder if you will be able to convince me that Bush and Rumsfeld are going to war on behalf of unionised labour?

Subject: RE: BS:Germany and France are not Europe
From: michaelr
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 05:41 PM

Yes, Bush&Co. have pissed away whatever international goodwill was extended after 9-11. The scary thing is that they do not seem to care -- at all. They feel they have the power, and they will use it regardless of consequences. This is deeply immoral. I think it's called totalitarianism.

We can only hope that by the time they're ready to start shooting, international and domestic opinion will have turned negative drastically enough to give them pause. I applaud Germany and France for showing more spine than that weasel, Blair.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS:Germany and France are not Europe
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 05:57 PM

it is so very sad to watch my own country being pushed/dragged into a conflict like this. It is a case of doing a good thing (getting rid of a maniac despot) for all the wrong reasons, with the wrong justifications, and using the wrong paths...Bush 'could' have had most of the world's support for fighting terrorism, and eventually have accomplished things in Iraq, but now, even winning will give us a bad reputation.

Isn't is amazing what differences to history a few thousand votes can make?

Subject: RE: BS:Germany and France are not Europe
From: alanabit
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 06:11 PM

Yes, I am afraid you are right. If America is going to make a principled stand against evil dictators, it looks like your country has a lot of work ahead (including the removal of several other despots which it has either installed itself or supported over the years).

Subject: RE: BS:Germany and France are not Europe
From: Barry Finn
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 06:21 PM

The US Labor movement was well represented during the DC war protest last week. As was everyone else in the country who wouldn't benifit in some big way if we were to impose our will upon other nations. Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 07:13 PM



Surely, Bill D, you exaggerate the number of votes that actually decided it by a factor of several thousand.

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: GUEST,uncle charlie
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 07:20 PM

i can understand how upset the french and german governments are at mr. rumsfeld's comments the other day, and as an American i apologize
if these remarks offend their noble countrymen. after all, if we rid the world or saddam and free his people there is a chance that the noble and enlightened french might not be able to recoupe the billions saddam owes them. i also applaud our german friends for their stance. the last thing we need is germany involved in any form of military action with their illustrious past. isn't it funny how france is always at odds with the United States? must have something to do with the fact that they are relatively irrelevant on the world stage both in culture and industry. it is always a good thing to have debates on such matters as the use of force,for it is a grave situation, but atleast try to be honest. europeans are concerned about their investments in iraq, Americans are interested in keeping that asshole from giving his weapons to terriorist to use against us.
and if it was just about oil and we Americans were as evil as you left wing europeans say, we have the power to just take over the oil producing countries if we so desired.

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 07:32 PM

It's Biblical. The jawbone of an ass. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 07:39 PM

"Isn't it funny how France is always at odds with the United States?"

There's gratitude for you...

There quite likely wouldn't have been a United States without help from the French. And who gave America the Statue of Liberty?

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: harvey andrews
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 08:11 PM

Uncle Charlie, when it comes to culture... Literature,art, music, cinema, Brel, Brassens, Piaf...taste.. you've got a fight on your hands!

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 08:16 PM

Alanabit, I hold no brief for Bush and his crew. I think the move against Iraq is stupid, without proof, and without international support.
Big business is frequently attacked, in most cases unfairly. Who holds the stock? Investors from the individual to the big pension funds and insurance companies.
Wars usually create short term profit increases for business, but retooling and re-sizing before and after create debts and disruption for it as well as the government.

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 08:22 PM

Ferengi Rules of Acquisition

Rule 34: War is good for business

Rule 35: Peace is good for business

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 09:58 PM

I will personally go to war with anyone who insults French culture... My life has benefited immensely from French movies, literature, music, etc, and I hear their wine isn't too bad... The American revolution would have never happened... Our newest version of Napoleon probably makes French blood boil... Actually, "The Bonny Bunch of Roses O" is a much more apt comparison... We must look tragically comic... What would Benjamin Franklin do right about now? ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 10:33 PM

ah, McGrath...I know that 5-4 is YOUR point...all I meant was that a 1000 vote swing in Florida would have given Gore that state and made the silliness of letting the court decide unnecessary. (and I suspect that if all residents of Florida had been given the same quality of vote counting and poll access, Gore would have won by a couple thousand anyway...)...still far too close, but....

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: GUEST,unclecharlie
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 10:41 PM

It is just so much fun to stir things up! We in the U.S. will always be indebted to France for the critical help she gave us during our war of Independence, and there will never be another gift from one country to another as Lady Liberty. In my opinion the greatest painters in history were the Imppressionist. The French Resistence fighters in WW11 were some of the most courageous in the war. My problem with France stems from the latter part of the 20th century to now. The French broke away from NATO during the cold war to pursue there own intrest knowing that the U.S. would still be there if the Soviets invaded Western Europe. Remember French Indo-China? France begged the U.S. to support their colonial rule there which came back to haunt us in the Vietnam war. When I was in Israel I heard a French lady call me a fucking American. I replied that it was fucking Americans that saved their ass in two wars and if not for us she would be speaking German or Russian. We went on to become great friends. The point is that we must not make the same mistakes of the past by appeasing a ruthless dictator like saddam. If we don't disarm him now it will lead to a more hedious war when he does have nukes because Israel will have to stage a pre-emptive nuclear attack for it's survival and that could lead to a major world war. There are evil people in the world with whom you cannot negotiate with. Appeasement never works with them i.e. Hitler, Stalin, Mao and their ilk. The U.S. cannot allow this man to develope his weapons of mass destruction to use against his neighbors or be given to terrorist to use against us. In the end the vast majority of Americans don't give a shit about what the world says, we are going to put an end to saddam and his henchmen and then deal with North Korea and then Iran .

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 10:53 PM

because Israel will have to stage a pre-emptive nuclear attack

I think that's got to be one of the most stunningly convoluted, bizarre, and insane statements I have ever read.

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: toadfrog
Date: 26 Jan 03 - 01:00 AM

What is most disturbing about Bush is his vision of an all-powerful America which must be able to give orders to all those foreigners and make them do what we say. In the last analyisis, not even North Korea is going to shoot off atomic bombs unless they are attacked. When Bush calls them part of the "axis of evil," people considerably more reasonable than the North Koreans would read that as a statement that he intends to attack them. Certainly when he mentions them in the same breath as Iraq, he gives that impression.

If history has any "lessons" at all, it is that a nation that aspires to be all-powerful will be brought low. And certainly, that the people living in such a nation can expect to be made extremely miserable. And that power tends to corrupt, so that in essence, Bush's vision is in fact evil.

By the way, lets not forget the name of the man that brought all this on us. His name is Ralph Nader.

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Jan 03 - 02:52 AM

In the end the vast majority of Americans don't give a shit about what the world says, we are going to put an end to saddam and his henchmen and then deal with North Korea and then Iran .

Gads. What neighborhood do you live in? Not in mine, I assure you.

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Jan 03 - 02:26 PM

Point 1:-- I hear in this morning's news that Blair is now saying that the inspectors should be given more time. Is it possible that Blair is flirting with the idea that Great Britain may join the old, outdated, and irrelevant portions of Europe?

Point 2:-- unclecharlie, I won't comment on most of what you said other than to echo what Ebbie said, and to also point out that refraining from going to war is not appeasement. As far as I'm concerned, Saddam can have all the weapons of mass destruction he wants (just as we do), as long as he fully understands that if he uses any of them against any country, the rest of the world will mash him like a bug. And I think he's not totally unaware of that. Nor is North Korea.

If the United States attacks any country pre-emptively, then it becomes the rogue nation.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: DougR
Date: 26 Jan 03 - 03:02 PM

Michael: how can you piss away something you didn't have anyway? Nothing Rumsfield could say would make the Europeans love the U. S. or the Bush administration! They hate us until they need us. Then they tolerate us. The exception, I believe, is Great Britain.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jan 03 - 03:08 PM

Blair is now saying that the inspectors should be given more time

Don't build too much on that. He's had to say that all along, because it's difficult manoeuvring a country that is opposed to going to war, and a party that is opposed to war, into actually going to war.

"More time" means weeks rather than months. Remember this war has to fit in with the American electoral cycle, which means it needs to be sorted before this time next year, which means within the next couple of months, they say, because they don't fancy fighting a war in the hot weather in Iraq.

The significant Blair news today was in the Observer's lead story today, beginning:

Tony Blair has raised the temperature in the confrontation with Iraq by insisting there is no need for United Nations weapons inspectors to find a 'smoking gun' for Saddam Hussein to be in breach of UN resolutions and face military action.

In other words, all the arms inspections have really been about is treading water until the full-scale attack on Iraq can begin in a few weeks time.

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: DougR
Date: 26 Jan 03 - 04:13 PM

I think the role of the inspectors is greatly misunderstood. As I understand it from listening to Colin Powell today, the UN did not expect that the inspectors would have to engage in finding the needle in the haystack. Iraq, according to the UN Resolution was supposed to fully cooperate with the inspectors and show them where the weapons are. It is the job of the inspectors to verify the Iraqi's claims. Also, Iraq was to cooperate by allowing their scientists to talk freely with the inspectors without Iraqi guards present. That has not been happend because the scientists fear that if they talk freely, they and their family will be killed. Probably true too. Iraq has not fully cooperated and I think that is what Blix will say in his report tomorrow.

As to Germany and France, I think all Rumsfield was saying was "we don't need you. We can do it with other allies thank you very much, without the help of Germany and France." Of course I would wager a bet that if the decision is to invade, France will climb aboard. I don't know about Germany. France evidently has big business interests in Iraq, and they wouldn't want to risk not preserving them after Saddam is removed from power. As part of the Allied forces, they would be in a much better position to maintain their business interests.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Jan 03 - 04:30 PM

Hang on, DougR. Remember, you are on record as saying: #1, Bush will NOT go to war; #2, if he does go to war without letting us know what actual evidence he has, you too will complain about the president. Keep in mind, however, if you do such an unprecedented thing, you can expect a midnight knock on your door...

:)
Ebbie

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: DougR
Date: 26 Jan 03 - 07:41 PM

Well, Ebbie, I think it only fair to say I have changed my mind. For awhile I thought Bush was pulling the big bluff, and I hoped Saddam would respond by taking the bait and vacating his throne. Evidently such is not to be the case, though, so I think we will go to war. As to the knock on the door, the "Knockers" are going to be so busy knocking on Mudcatter doors, I'm not at all concerned that they will ever get around to mine! :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jan 03 - 08:39 PM

You mean Doug you really believed that stuff you were saying about it being a bluff? I rather thought it was a bit tongue in cheek. The same way when I was writing to my MP I was saying things like "I am confident in the light of what Tony Blair said on such and such a day that he has completely ruled out the possibiity of this country going to war without etc etc."

But in fact I was reasonably sure friend Tony was lying through his teeth while treading water. A difficult thing for most people, but you don't get to be Prime Minister if you can't do that with ease and conviction.

"As part of the Allied forces, they would be in a much better position to maintain their business interests."

Maybe they will stick a modified version of that on the war memorials: "As part of the Allied forces, we were in a much better position to maintain your business interests."

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 26 Jan 03 - 09:21 PM

Dear Doug, your last turnaround has wiped clean the respect you had previously earned from me, and it was no small amount... The calm acceptance of the various postings was indeed heartening, as were your steadfast and unshaken convictions... or so it seemed. If you are really wishing for a totalitarian take over, however, and the physical enforcement of the US government's apparent desires for the abolishment of free speech, then it is indeed you that are 'over the line', my friend...

It would appear that you've been sharing your bed with the state department again, 'cause of your timing re: comming out of the closet... pity, that, 'cause your input seemed so 'useful'...

I hope you have a change of heart, DougR, and I'm sure we value those secrets you've been keeping much more than... well, you know! ;^) We'll be waiting with open arms, and hugs, and music, and acceptance! ttr *BG*

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Strupag
Date: 26 Jan 03 - 10:04 PM

It seems to be overlooked that Britain is against a forthcoming war in Iraq. No I'm not talking about Blair, his henchmen and the Tory mob in Westminster.
I'm talking about the majority of Britains who express themselves often in opinion polls. It might be a reletively flawed indicator of representation but it is the only one we have these days.

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Jan 03 - 11:16 PM

Is there anything that the people in Britain can do to influence Tony Blair's decisions on this matter, or do they have as little influence on the decisions that are made as we do here in the US?

Our opinion polls don't seem to be giving an accurate indication of the true feelings of the people in this country. Personally, I think they're telling you guys over there that the majority of people in the US want the war, and they are giving those of us in the US the impression that the majority of people in Britain want the war. One of their psy-ops, perhaps.

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Jan 03 - 11:38 PM

...the "Knockers" are going to be so busy knocking on Mudcatter doors, I'm not at all concerned that they will ever get around to mine! :>)

Ah, DougR, it appears you have got into a 'them' versus 'us' mode. Do you really mean to imply that you don't consider yourself a Mudcatter?

I can hear it now: "Oh, no, Your Honor, I never was one of 'them', I always let them know what I thought and tried consistently to change their views. I stayed only to help them, hoping they would see the light."

Say it ain't so, Joe.

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Bullfrog Jones
Date: 27 Jan 03 - 09:03 AM

They hate us until they need us. Then they tolerate us. The exception, I believe, is Great Britain. No Doug, we hate governments (of any nation) that drag is into a war that we don't believe necessary. Don't join the trolling guests trying to turn this into an ungrateful Europe versus a disappointed-at-their-ingratitude USA scenario. You're better off practicing your response to 'Are you now or have you ever been a Mudcatter'.

BJ

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Wolfgang
Date: 27 Jan 03 - 09:04 AM

Too late, Rumsfeld, this time. One of your silly remarks has helped the (very) moderately left government in Germany to stay in power last year. Thanks for that. Now that the conservatives threaten to win an overall blocking majority in the second house (Bundesrat) next Sunday ou go for it again. But one week is too close to change anything in the balance of votes. Next time, please, start your support of the German left a bit earlier.

Some Germans will hate whatever the USA do, some will love whatever the USA do, but a very large majority takes a position which is influenced by whatever the USA are actually doing. Right now, even very conservative politicians find it kind of hard to support the USA wholeheartedly.

A local, very conservative newspaper today had a cartoon titled 'Bush's idea of a peaceful world' and it had the president looking at a globe with the familiar shape of the USA at a familiar position but all the rest of the globe showed a blue ocean.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 27 Jan 03 - 10:11 AM

Nothing Rumsfield could say would make the Europeans love the U. S. or the Bush administration! They hate us until they need us. Then they tolerate us.
NOT true, Doug. They liberated us, they fed us, they supported us when edifying a new economy, and they stood by our side ready to defend us in case of attack.
But is it friendship to applaud a friend's faults? Real friendship is to tell your friend where you think he is wrong, and to prevent him from obnoxious doings.

Wilfried

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Jan 03 - 11:02 AM

This entire trivalization of reactions by other countries is sickening. Hooray for France and Germany! They have stood up. Boo for the others who are afraid to stand up. There is no real support for this war except by a small minority of very powerful people who have grasped the opportunity crrated by the events of 9/11 to forge ahead with "empire building".

This has nothing to do with Saddam. This has nothing to with a bunch of 30 year old technology that the US sold Iraq. This is about imperialism, oil, world dominance, unilaterialism and globalization.

So let' not get bogged down with the side shows that Bush and Co. are orchestrating. It is up to the American people to say, "No!". Yes it is encouraging to know that the majority of the world's population is against the US taking on this "Empire" mentality but most of us understand this.

So, bottom line, what will each of you do today for your "No" vote to be counted?

I'm going to write yet another snail mail, this one to Laura Bush.

Bobert

P.S. Don't worry about Dougie. He occasionally posts things for the sake of get folks to react.

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Stefan Wirz
Date: 27 Jan 03 - 11:50 AM

anyone remembers Randy Newman's 'Political Science'? ('Boom goes London and boom Paree')

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: TIA
Date: 27 Jan 03 - 12:02 PM

Why don't France and Germany declare that the USA isn't part of North America? Wouldn't that make rummy grimace and squint over his bifocals!

Better yet, why don't Canada and Mexico actually vote us off the island.

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: DougR
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 12:56 AM

Ebbie: sure I'm a mudcatter ...but I'm on the right side! :>)

TTR: sorry you are disillusioned, but you'll recover. I just wrote what I believe.

Wolfgang: I don't know what to say. I'm disappointed Germany is taking the position that it has, but that is their right.

Bobert: Take your pills! :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 03:53 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 05:41 AM

Germany and France are not Europe - they would like to think that they are, but they are not.

CarolC:

"because Israel will have to stage a pre-emptive nuclear attack

I think that's got to be one of the most stunningly convoluted, bizarre, and insane statements I have ever read."

Remove the word "nuclear" between pre-emptive and attack and you have exactly what happened back in the early 80's when the Israeli Air Force flattened Iraq's first attempt at acquiring a reactor capable of producing weapons grade fissile material - the reactor was supplied by the French (Europes foremost nuclear power), other assistance required by Iraq to promote this programme was supplied by Russia.

Just as a sort of aside - the chemical munitions found in Iraq were 122mm artillery rockets - not part of any American/NATO inventory - Rusian/ex-Warsaw Pact. They used to run a scheme that put their ammunition sizes just above those used by NATO so that in the event of a war in Europe, advancing Soviet forces could use our ammunition at a pinch - we couldn't use theirs.

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 07:12 AM

They used to run a scheme that put their ammunition sizes just above those used by NATO so that in the event of a war in Europe, advancing Soviet forces could use our ammunition at a pinch - we couldn't use theirs.

I get the bizarre notion of an arms race in which each side would gomin for increasing the calibre of their ammunition for that reason. Getting chubbier and chubbier,

The most trenchant critics of the failings and failures of Americans are themseves Americans. And they are the ones I admire as true patriots and allies.

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 07:57 AM

Actually Kevin it went the other way. Standard infantry weapon for NATO used 7.62mm - the Russians used 7.63mm. The Americans then went to 5.56mm followed by the British when the SA80R rifle replaced the SLR. Advantages in weight and amount of ammunition that could be carried by the individual infantryman.

On chemical and biological weapons, the UK unilaterally renounced the use of such weapons about forty years ago. The Russians and the Warsaw Pact forces maintained their capability, prompting the UK to retain establishments such as Portandown for research into protective measures for their troops. The Americans ceased to produce chemical or biological weapons but retained existing stocks until degraded. What was found in Iraq was supplied by the Russians or manufactured under licence, yet we are consistantly told of America supplying chemical and biological weapons to Saddam Hussein during the Iran - Iraq War. I do remember that chemicals used in the production of chemical and biological weapons, found by UNSCOM Inspection Teams after 1991 originated in Germany.

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: stevetheORC
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 08:03 AM

You Nasty, Nasty, Folksy's why do you all keep on picking on pooorr ole Georgie you'll give him a complex you know, then he'll go running to daddy who will spank you all:~)) Chairman Blair only hears those little voices in his head!!!

ORC for Prez!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: ard mhacha
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 08:05 AM

Every opinion poll I have seen in the British media has been over 80%against going to war, Blair is being panned daily for his servile attitude to the US warmongers. Ard Mhacha