Space Shuttle Crash?

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 09:18 AM

A very sad accident as many have said, nothing else, except that there are many more consequences than with a 'normal' train accident.

And there is nothing unexpected about this tragic (or should it be 'pathetic'?) loss in a statistical sense. The numbers I have read are that NASA expects 1 total loss for 50 to 75 flights. So two losses on 113 flight are well within the limits of expectation. Though these considerations do not help at all the relations whose grief I can feel.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Blues=Life
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 10:22 PM

Spaw, Thanks for posting the history on Magee. For those not familiar with the poem, High Flight is much loved by those who fly, for it sums up the experience of flight in small planes perfectly. Because of that, it is often read in tribute of pilots who are lost. I raise a glass for our fallen explorers, our heros. What they do gives me hope for the future, and I hate to lose such intrepid souls.

Absent companions!

Blues

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST,Julia
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 09:20 PM

This by Anne Lister seems appropriate
ICARUS
(Ann Lister)

I never wanted to fly high
I was too fond of walking
And when you said you'd touch the sky
I thought it was your way of talking
And then you said you'd build some wings
And find out how it could be done
But I was doubtful of everything
I never thought you'd reach the sun

You were so clever with your hands
I'd watch you for hours
With the glue and the rubber bands
Feathers and lace and flowers
And the finished wings they glowed so bright
Like some bird of glory
I began to envy you your flight
Like some old hero's story

You tried to get me to go with you
You tried always to dare me
But I looked at the sky so blue
I thought the height would scare me
But I carried your wings for you
Up the path to the cliff face
Kissed you goodbye and watched your eyes
Already bright with sunlight

It was wonderful at the start
To watch you soaring higher
There was a pain deep in my heart
The wings seemed tipped with fire
Like a seagull or a lark
Rising up forever
Like some ember or some spark
Rising from earth to heaven

Then I believed you'd touch the sun
I believed all you told me
Do a thing no man has ever done
You'd touch the stars to please me
But then I saw the white wings fail
Then I saw the feathers falter
Watched you drop like a ball of gold
Into the wide green water

Now some are born to fly high
And some are born to follow
Some are born to touch the sky
While some walk in the hollow
And as I watched your body fall
I knew that really you had won
For your grave was not the earth
But the reflection of the sun

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 08:05 PM

Nice artwork, Donuel.

I guess I am turning into a terrible cynic. I didn't feel Bush had any right to be making the remarks in his speech. It made him seem that much more of a hypocrite. That last line about them being safely home sucked, imo. All I could think of was the families who may not have been ready to hear such a trite platitude; the children who could plainly see their lost parent was not home. I know it was meant as a metaphor, but it was a cheap and easily wrought bit of tripe, imo.

kat

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST,Johnny
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 07:22 PM

Bush, like every other US president, reads speeches and public remarks written by his speechwriter(s) from a teleprompter, as Bush did yesterday. If acknowledging that fact is a cheap shot, than I'm guilty as charged.

I stated in two threads yesterday that I thought the speechwriter(s) had done a very good job with the speech. It was a beautifully written speech, just not beautifully delivered, IMO. I rather doubt I'm alone in my opinion of Bush as a mediocre public speaker at best.

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 06:04 PM

I did this in 30 minutes.
http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/schuttle2.jpg
Following Apollo
returning from near heaven
On the wings of Icarus
We salute the fallen seven




This one took 7 hours.
http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/schuttlewindow2.jpg
"I can see the stars and earth reflected in my eyes"
Kalpana Chawla aboard Columbia

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Walking Eagle
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 06:00 PM

So what's the problem with Bush reading his remarks? Perhaps he wrote them down so he wouldn't stumble? Maybe he didn't want to break up or if he did, he had his notes to help him get back on course? That was a cheap shot about having to read his notes! I'm no Bush lover, but give the man some credit here. I listened to his speech as opposed to watching and I got a far different viewpoint.

Spaw, you expressed the thoughts of a lot of us who grew up in the space age. War was swirling around us and we were supposed to feel that everything the gov did was bad. Well, I was very confilcted because I saw the space flights as something that was an adventure into the future. Something to smile at! I too tried to hate the space race, but I couldn't. My heart soared when the moon landing was achieved. And who can forget the reading of Genesis at Christmas when the last astronauts to orbit the moon caught the slingshot to send them back to earth. Who can forget the first picture ever taken of an earth rise? Only the heartless and emotionless among us didn't both laugh and cry with hope then!

It is the great adventure, the great step into the unknown that facinates me. I care about Zimbabwians and Afghanis and every other people of the earth. In part because seeing us from space makes me feel more bound to their lives.

That's all I can write now.

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 12:16 PM

Spaw, I'm familiar with the poem, but somehow thought it had been incorporated in an official prayer. It's often quoted amonst aviators. (I shared PM's with Joe about this and Isaiah 40 with Joe several years ago.)

Mark, I know what you're saying, but I come from a different tradition, one that feels there is too little emphasis on "Basic Research." We can't always see the tangible and immediate results of the discovery of new knowledge, but thank goodness for visionaries who pursue this quest. From my experiences in a resin reseach lab which emphasized basic research and understanding of the phenomena which govern physical interactions - our (American) companies are getting their butts kicked by other companies in other countries who pursue new knowledge and patents - we are governed too much by the bean counters and short-range bottom-line managers. But I found that trying to explain this to a manager was like trying to justify the study of Shakespeare to a high school dropout. I get weary with the arguments.

Back to the astronauts -- I know of no more fitting words than the poem "High Flight."

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Peg
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 08:51 AM

Aloha Mark; I agree with you.

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: catspaw49
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 12:18 AM

As several of us have brought up "High Flight" on both threads, here's just a bit more on young John Magee, the author.

Born of an American father and English mother, John Gillespie Magee gave up studies at Yale University to join the Royal Canadian Air Force in 1940. An American serving with the Royal Canadian Air Force, he was born in Shanghai, China in 1922, the son of missionary parents, Reverend and Mrs. John Gillespie Magee; his father was an American and his mother was originally a British citizen.
He came to the U.S. in 1939 and earned a scholarship to Yale, but in September 1940 he enlisted in the RCAF and was graduated as a pilot. He was sent to England for combat duty in July 1941. He was qualified on and flew the Supermarine Spitfire.

He was stationed at RAF Wellingore, a satellite station of RAF Digby, with 412 Squadron RCAF when he wrote "High Flight". The poem encompasses his thoughts and feelings of the freedom of flight, and in particular, the exhilaration he felt after a flying in the Spitfire.

Flying fighter sweeps over France and air defence over England against the German Luftwaffe, he rose to the rank of Pilot Officer. At the time, German bombers were crossing the English Channel with great regularity to attack Britain's cities and factories. Although the dark days of the Battle of Britain were over, the Luftwaffe was still on the job of keeping up the pressure on British industry and the country.   On September 3, 1941, Magee flew a high altitude (30,000 feet) test flight in a newer model of the Spitfire V. As he orbited and climbed upward, he was struck with the inspiration of a poem -- "To touch the face of God."

Once back on the ground, he wrote a letter to his parents. In it he commented, "I am enclosing a verse I wrote the other day. It started at 30,000 feet, and was finished soon after I landed." On the back of the letter, he jotted down his poem, "High Flight".

Just three months later, on December 11, 1941 (and only three days after the US entered the war), Pilot Officer John Gillespie Magee, Jr., was killed. The Spitfire V he was flying, VZ-H, collided with an Oxford Trainer from Cranwell Airfield while over Tangmere, England. The two planes were flying in the clouds and neither saw the other. He was just 19 years old.

He is buried, along with other RCAF colleagues, in the graveyard in Scopwick village, 2 miles from RAF Digby, where, each year on Remembrance Sunday, personnel from RAF Digby join the members of Scopwick village church in remembering these airmen who died so far from home.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST,Johnny
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 12:11 AM

CNN is now reporting that human remains believed to from the Columbia crew have been found in Hemphill, Texas.

Good night everyone.

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: jimmyt
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 11:29 PM

Johnny, Sorry I haven't had a chance to read your brilliance all day until now, but I was trying to expand my reading list as you recommended this morning so I could rub shoulders with geniuses like you.

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST,Johnny
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 09:17 PM

I just saw Bush reading his remarks on one of the news specials. The complete text can be found in the OBIT thread.

I have to say, I found his "reading" ruined the words for me. I couldn't even tell where the quote from Isaiah ended, and Bush's words picked up again, and I had already read through the text numerous times!

Bush's delivery, IMO, was clumsy and wooden, and robbed the words of their power. I can't recall a worse presidential reader of speeches since LBJ, who was truly awful. But Bush's speechwriters are astoundingly good writers, as Bill Moyer regularly makes note of as well.

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 08:47 PM

I came in from a day of errands to look back and see what the flap was about this morning. I didn't read the early posts closely enough to see the pot shot that "Guest--11:47" sent when I responded to someone else who wanted to turn this thread into a "grave site" of sorts with nothing but condolences posted. In this climate, it's all too normal that our thoughts spring instantly to possible related topics. The "we" someone else challenged is now apparent, I think.

As bits of news that represent themselves as "facts" come along and people want to post them to the list, it might be a good idea to first check them out. Two good places for debunking myths or clarifying information are About.com or do a careful search on Google.

SRS

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 08:46 PM

Mary, read my post above his....It was written by a Canadian WWII pilot.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 08:33 PM

Blues=Life, thanks for that poem. I've searched for it for several years now. Is it a part of the Air Force Prayer? I think that was the poem that was read verbatim at my father's funeral.

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 08:14 PM

And India, remember.

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From:
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 08:13 PM

I tuned into this event via mudcat. Much as the event happened. Sometimes that's what I find Mudcat most usefull for, bringing my attention to events that move me. In my small world that's a tribute to a community of folk people, keeping history alive, not just after the event but even as it happens.

So thanks to Max and his co' for that.

And thanks to you all that post.

I find the anger difficult. I find the trolls, looking to make their small point amongst a midst of (some times obviously) restrained people difficult. But that's just me.

But i have NO other vehicle for saying things like this to (at least some of) the world...

To those people of America and of Israel who choose to read and to care, I want to say sorry for your loss of heroes.

I believe we have all lost today.

Paul

(Just some bloke)

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 08:12 PM

So stand by your glasses steady,
And remember the men from the sky,
Here's to the dead already,
And three cheers for the next man to die

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: InOBU
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 07:58 PM

It is a misty evening in New York. The night after the Challenger blew up, it was pissing rain. I was sitting on the edge of a roof in Brooklyn with Tony T-Bags from Derry dangling our legs over an eight or nine floor drop to the ally, drinking from a gallon jug of cheep wine, passing it back and forth with Tony as he barfed between his legs into the ally, all the while both of us sobbing and saying "doggy fucking gone, doggy gone shuttle..." I have grown up a wee bit since then. Still very very sad.
Larry

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 07:51 PM

The stars that they reached for are the stars they have now become.

A stupid and inaccurate thing to say, but I agree with the sentiment

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 07:37 PM

The loss of seven explorers of space's dark reaches — shuttle commander Rick Husband, Michael Anderson, David Brown, Kalpana Chawla, Laurel Clark, William McCool and Ilan Ramon.
The stars that they reached for
are the stars they have now become.
Peace. Rustic

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 07:37 PM

I know that I shall meet my fate
Somewhere among the clouds above;
Those that I fight I do not hate,
Those that I guard I do not love;
My country is Kiltartan Cross,
My countrymen Kiltartan's poor,
No likely end could bring them loss
Or leave them happier than before.

Nor law, nor duty bade me fight,
Nor public men, nor cheering crowds,
A lonely impulse of delight
Drove to this tumult in the clouds;
I balanced all, brought all to mind,
The years to come seemed a waste of breath,
A waste of breath the years behind
In balance with this life, this death.

Yeats

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: bob schwarer
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 07:33 PM

My wife and I were coming home from the ballpark when I mentioned that we did not hear the sonic boom of the shuttle on its way to landing. Usually here in central FL we get the boom-boom about the time the shuttle lands. About the time I got the words out we heard on the radio of the loss. Eerie.

Sometimes the "boom" rattles the dishes. If you don't know of the landing it can shock you.

Bob S.

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Blues=Life
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 07:18 PM

In Tribute:

"High Flight"

Oh! I have slipped the surly bonds of earth
And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings;
Sunward I've climbed, and joined the tumbling mirth
Of sun-split clouds - and done a hundred things
You have not dreamed of - wheeled and soared and swung
High in the sunlit silence. Hov'ring there,
I've chased the shouting wind along, and flung
My eager craft through footless halls of air.
Up, up the long, delirious, burning blue
I've topped the wind-swept heights with easy grace
Where never lark, or even eagle flew -
And, while with silent lifting mind I've trod
The high untrespassed sanctity of space,
Put out my hand and touched the face of God.

(John Gillespie Magee, Jr.)



Put the flag to half mast, it's time to play the blues.

Blues

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 07:17 PM

The remarkable thing about the whole history of space exploration is how few disasters there have been, considering what is involved.

I hope that this sad accident isn't used as a reason for the USA to turn its back on space, or to totally militarise the space programme. Indeed, there is a logic in the argument that it'd be better to spend that effort and money on things closer to home, on Earth. But I've always felt that the possibility of moving out from Earth and seeing the planet as a small precious and vulnerable place, where humans have absurd quarrels which threaten to wreck it is perhaps a more realistic way of moving us forward.

I've got a peace badge with a picture of the Earth from space. I think that picture has maybe done more to help people recognise our unity than anything else in history.

If you think about the sad story of "the peace dividend", it is fairly clear that, if the money spent on space exploration was diverted, it wouldn't go to help the poor, it'd just end up with people who already have far more than is good for them. And the world as a whole would be poorer.

It's 17 years since the last space tragedy. Yes, it's sad, but exploration has always been dangerous, and when it takes its price, that's no reason to give up. It's a reason to learn what can be learned from what happened, and use that for the future.

As Joe Hill put it, in a rather different context "Don't mourn - organize."

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Ed.
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 07:05 PM

Thank you for your post, Catspaw

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 07:02 PM

Yes PT, I too give great credit to Bush's speechwriters and to Dubya himself for a message well delivered. The poetic reference which Reagan also used should be familiar to you Canadians......It's by a pilot named John Magee serving with the RCAF in WWII, written just a few days before he was killed. I think the poem is called "High Flight."

Spaw

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Peter T.
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 06:50 PM

Not to be too technical about it, but while on the subject of literary responses, and as mentioned in the other thread, it is worth remarking that Bush's speechwriter did another exemplary job at what must have been very short notice. Pitch perfect -- the use of linked metaphor (darkness, for example, at exactly the right place) alone is brilliantly apt; the quote from Isaiah, the movement into the names of the 7 linked to the names of the stars, and then linked to "safely home". Really first rate, especially given the "great communicator's shadow ("touched the face of God") over your shoulder.
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 06:49 PM

I have been an aviation junkie as long as I can remember. Like many, I was caught up in the "Space Race" and all that surrounded it. One of the highlights of my 12th year was shaking the hand of John Glenn after his Friendship 7 flight when he returned to his hometown of New Concorde, Ohio, only 30 miles from mine. I remember all of the Mercury and Gemini flights, the Apollo One fire, the Apollo missions, the first photos of "Earthrise," Armstrong and Aldrin........I hated to see it end. But by then I was more "mature" and caught up in other things. I suddenly found the space program to be the fault of everything wrong in America and a financial waste. It was hard to reconcile my political beliefs with space flight and all the economic drain it entailed.

One day, perhaps ten years later, I gave up trying to hate the space program. My logic and all was compromised.......So what? Damn if it hadn't been exciting....and it still was. As the shuttle came into being I was thrilled. This was a real aircraft......at least pretty close.....like the X-20 Dynasore project would have led to had it not been shut down when Mercury became the method of choice. Yeah, I know that money could be better spent perhaps, but where else was the thrill, the excitement, and the pioneering spirit as much to be found.

Just over 20 years ago in '81, I watched with great trepidation as Columbia under the command of an old space vet, John Young, made her first flight. Would all those systems and those screwy tiles work? I know the Saturn booster from Apollo accelerated faster, but watching that day it just seemed as though Columbia leaped off the pad as if to say. "I want to FLY!" Today, after performing flawlessly on her mission, I watched the break-up of her that took 7 valuable lives.

I am impressed with the way NASA is handling this and I am sure the families have great support. My heart goes out to them as well,as do most of yours. If you heard any of the crew interviews though, you know these folks were all committed to what they did, knew the risks, and considered them to be a part of their job. I'm sure none of them wanted to die, but I am equally sure that none of them would have traded their positions for anything else. We are still in the early days of space flight.....it is still not routine.

NASA will do what it must and I hope that they get the financial backing to do more. Someone said this is much like the early days of aviation or sailing and it's true. If we think of the Mercury program as the Wright Brothers, then Gemini and Apollo were the WWI years and up to Lindbergh's crossing of the Atlantic. About then, we really got things underway in commercial aviation and that's about where the shuttle is now.......like an old Ford Tri-Motor. It's time for a DC-2 and DC-3 to replace it. The solutions and new technologies need to happen. The crew of Columbia was counting on it I'm sure.

A very sad day for the families and friends, for NASA, and for many of us.................

Spaw

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 06:38 PM

sorry, meant to attribute quotes to McGrath of Harlow.

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 06:37 PM

'Talk about it in terms of geo-politics and that seems somehow irrelevant to me. ,It invites people to see it in the wrong context with flags and patriotism and that, when it's really a tragic accident like so many others we pass by and ignore - and we shouldn't. '

& you can bet your life that vested interests will surely capitalise on this!

in the form of more 'Improperganda!'

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 06:27 PM

As for more media attention to the loss of seven lives in a space shuttle than to 50 lives lost in train crashes, agreed. But you can take that farther- what of the 50,000 + lives lost on our highways every year? Almost as many lost in highway crashes annually as American lives lost in all of the Viet Nam conflict.

Obviously it is not the number of lives lost in a given unit that we consider important...

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST,Homer
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 06:25 PM

Israeli astronaut Ilan Ramon doesn't qualify as a tragic hero?

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 05:47 PM

...and I suppose that militarization was inevitable, since the first sizable working rockets were used as weapons. In fact, I probably should have said the "incomplete demilitarization" of the space program.

Aloha,
Mark

I suppose there is some relief to hear that the loss of heat-shielding tiles on liftoff was probably not the cause of the destruction of the shuttle. At least we don't have to imagine that the crew went through the entire mission thinking that they were likely not to come back.

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Amos
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 05:46 PM

From Declan McCullagh' politech list, a fervent insight into how this qualifies as "waste":

---

====

Two years ago, I was a highly decorated NASA engineer. I was awarded
their highest medal, for Exceptional Achievement -- something that is usually
reserved for senior managers -- because of my expertise.

I was a safety engineer.

I was removed from my GS-13 position, as an internationally-recognized
authority on hypergolic propellants and explosives, and forced off the
Kennedy Space Center. At gunpoint.

Their excuse was that I had "abused government equipment." Because I
sent a friend an e-mail joke.

The reality was that I wouldn't play their "political ball."

I F-ING WARNED THEM.

I told them that the technicians and engineers were overworked. I told
them that there were too many managers and too many meetings and
"dog-and-pony" shows. I told them that their senior "face time" play games, while they spent all their time plotting how to give each other pay raises, and left
the guys on the floor to struggle day to day with obsolete and overpriced and
unqualified equipment, was going to result in another Challenger.

I was there for Challenger.

I saw the same exact conditions happening again. Overpaid, lazy,
irresponsible managers concerned solely with their climbing up their
ladders.

I told them they were skimping on inspections. I told them that the
ground crews were asleep on their feet from exhaustion. I made as much
noise as I knew how to make about the top-heavy bureaucracy sitting around
in their fancy panelled offices, giving whorish press interviews in their
smugness, while they did not have a clue what was going on in the real
world where I was working.

They fired me. They fired a GS-13 civil servant, with an Exceptional
Service medal and ten dozen commendations. For sending an e-mail joke.

In reality, for objecting to political fat-cats sitting on their fat rear
ends and failing to do their jobs.

Like Challenger, those who are most guilty are the ones who will attempt
to make the most political capital out of it. But the blame for Columbia
lies entirely and totally with the NASA administrators. They should all be
investigated for their criminal negligence. They should all serve time
in jail.

I warned them. They did their best to destroy me, because I warned them.

It's too bad that innocent astronauts paid with their lives for NASA
managers greed and political ass-kissing.

But I am not surprised.

Two years ago, I warned them.

Dian Hardison
Cocoa, FL 32927

---

Amos

---

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST,Johnny
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 05:41 PM

Thanks for your reply too, Peter.

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 05:40 PM

Beccy, I agree that the space program has produced many gains in science and technology that have been useful. I could also give you a long list of medical advances -- including almost all of modern trauma surgery and intensive care -- that resulted directly from our involvement in the Korean and Vietnam wars. I appreciate these advances, and recognize that they may one day save my life or the life of someone I care about. But I am still opposed to war. Your argument is a common one, but not, as Mr. Spock would say, logical. And I say that as someone who is not inherently opposed to the space program--just the way it's been militarized from the very beginning.

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Peter T.
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 05:40 PM

Chaucer's version of tragedy (if any Christian story can be considered tragic) is usually a variation of the sinful fall story, or the movement of the wheel of fortune. Hamartia, the Aristotelian concept of the "flaw", operates against a different backdrop.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST,Johnny
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 05:38 PM

Thanks for your reply Amos. But I've lost interest in participating here.

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Amos
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 05:35 PM

Johnny:

Those lives and all they could have accomplished were thrown away. It was understandable,s ure, but a waste nevertheless.   Nature is full of waste. This one seems particularly poignant to me because they were extraordinary humans making a difference in the state of the world.   And I would imagine their families would have been more proud of them over time if they had continued living and pushing that frontier. But, pon the other hand, you are under no obligation to agree with what is a purely subjective view.

A

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: treewind
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 05:29 PM

I'm sure the Zimbabwe crash is big news in Zimbabwe.

Kevin - in Britain the Ladbroke Grove train crash provoked all sorts of national outcry about railway safety - yet a few weeks later the same number of people would have died in road accidents but none of that got a mention in the national press and there were'nt questions asked about road safety in all the papers.

I agree, there's a lot of sensationalism here.

I admit I've succumbed too - else why did I choose to read this thread?

Anahata

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Beccy
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 05:24 PM

Thanks, Lou and Ed...
Go on, boys... challenge me.

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST,Johnny
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 05:24 PM

I detect increasing enmity and malice in the last several posts, and I agree that it is inappropriate in this thread. And I include my last couple of responses. I apologize for taking the bait the trollers put out for me.

It won't happen again.

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: LouMurray
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 05:23 PM

Good job Beccy

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: InOBU
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 05:23 PM

Hi McGrath:
I don't think it is raw numbers that makes news here. It is a greater human tragidy, that the train has crashed. Yet, if the space program is slowed by this tragidy, then we loose the huge advances in medicine and comunications, and everything esle that the space program has brought us. I think the space program has been missused and still the entire world has benifited from the program and there is a great hope of peaceful progress when in the days of the USSR we were able to cooperate in space. Train travel will continue, sadly, I think train travel in the third world will not be made more safe, but, we have to hope that in replacing the shuttle, we will put the funding there, rather than war, and reach out into space and accross national lines. Remember when we thought a huge asteroid was going to hit in 17 years or so? Well, lets hope the loss of these brave folks pushes the US to build a better ship so when the next asteroid finds us, we are ready for it.
All the best to all,
and pray for the families of the train passengers as well
Larry

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Ed.
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 05:22 PM

Thanks Beccy, that's interesting.

The 'non stick' pan arguement was getting a little tired.

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Beccy
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 05:15 PM

Well, Ed. For starters:

* Preliminary design of an automated oxygen enrichment system for premature babies. Working with Los Angeles County/USC Medical Center, NASA's retired volunteers and doctors are working to remove the inaccuracies of manually controlled oxygen systems, which can affect the infant's eyesight, brain and lung development.

* Solving a blood clot problem found with a stent that could cause heart attacks. NASA introduced a special electropolishing process to provide a super-smooth stent surface. The electropolishing process, developed in the aerospace industry, is not well known by doctors. The resulting electropolished stent practically eliminated further blood clot formation with the device.

Using space technology, scientists have developed extraordinary ceramic photocells that could repair malfunctioning human eyes.

NASA-funded scientists are crafting microscopic vessels that can venture into the human body and repair problems - one cell at a time.

Using space technology, NASA-funded researchers are developing artificial bones for pain-free hip implants.

Using a space-age device called a bioreactor, researchers have grown patches of tissue that beat and respond much like a human heart does.

NASA- and industry-sponsored research aimed at growing plants in space has led to a device that attacks and destroys airborne pathogens -- like Anthrax.

... not to mention GPS, satellite communications, aeronautic research and advancement and whatnot...

...but I digress.

* Creation of an advanced-database private computer network for pediatricians. Working with Childrens Hospital Los Angeles, NASA professionals and retirees are helping pediatricians nationwide to correspond about children's illnesses using JPL's method of data management. This database will provide a depository for historical data of diagnoses, research, treatments and results. Doctors estimate that extended medical use of the computer database systems could reduce health care costs by 20 to 30 percent.

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 05:03 PM

Here is the story about the Zimbawe train crash.

And here is a story about two bus crashes also in Zimbbwe which have killed 48 people.

That's over 80 people killed in a couple of days. But it doesn't make the main news.

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST,Johnny
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 05:03 PM

Ed, apparently you aren't a rocket scientist.

What program do you suppose is responsible for the development and maintenance of international satellite communications you are privleged to have the ability to afford access to, right now, to receive the news of the tragedy?