How to End Racism

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 04:15 AM

Then fast-forward to Matthew where Jesus says that only thru him one can know the father... If I am of Islamic Faith and am being told that I can't have a relationship with God because it has to be thru Jesus then I can see how that might be as offensive as the passgaes in the Koran about Christains...

No, that is not offensive, as religions have always differed as to what exactly is the path of 'righteousnous', hence that is why we have different faiths. islam states it is the only 'way' too, so should we take offence, no, maybe, perhaps, who knows, what i do know, is that although we differ, our modern christian insitututions do not read from scriptures such as,

"Qur'an 8:12 "Your Lord inspired the angels with the message: 'I will terrorize the unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes."

It is hardly tolerant is it! And of course your above quote, pales into insignificance when set next to the quotes that were made eariler! Yes, you are right, Christianity says it is the only way, and Islam states to strike off the heads of UNBELIEVERS, CUT THEIR FINGERS OFF AND THEIR TOES!!!!!!!!

Your comparison is laughable.

"For I was envious of the arrogant when I saw the prosperity of the wicked. For they have no pangs; their bodies are sound and sleek. They are not in trouble as other men are: they are not stricken like other men. Therefore pride is their naecklace; violence covers them as a garment. Their eyes swell out with fatness, their hearts overflow with follies. They scoff and speak with amlice, loftily they threaten oppression. They set their mouths agianst the heavens and their tongue struts through the earth. Therefore the peopl;e turn and praise them; and find no fault with them. And they say, "How can God know? Is there knowledge in the Most High?" Behold, these are the wicked; always at ease, they increase in riches..."

Psalms 73: 3-12

Again, the bible talking about envy, greed etc, is an entirely different subject from Koran quotes about murder, mutilation, rape, pillage, and stonings.

Get real, please find me passages in the Bible which specifically talks about killing the unbelievers, mutilating their bodies, raping their wifes, pillaging etc, please find me them, and not quotes from the bible about envy. lolol. You seem to have missed the entire point.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 04:47 AM

agree, chritianity has done many wrong things in past, but has changed to suit the modern era. Islam is stuck in past

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 05:02 AM

OK David, but the Muslim leaders in the UK are urging their followers to denounce all that the fanatics are currently doing in the name of Islam.

So we are left with a minority of extremists causing terror. They are not representative of the majority of Muslims living in the UK. Which you have already recognised. We have to allow change to take place to move forward.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 11:19 AM

I don't have time to do any bible searches just now, but here's one that always sticks in my mind...

When God instructs Abraham to sacrifice (kill) his son, and Abraham is perfectly willing to do it. That, of course is infanticide. Why did God instruct Abraham to do this? Because it would be the ultimate test of Abraham's loyalty and faith. God gave Abraham a test that was in violation of everything the Bible tells us is right and good, and Abraham was willing to do it. That reminds me of the kinds of tests people are put to in organized crime and in gangs. You have to kill someone in order to prove your loyalty to the gang. What does that tell us about the God of the Christian Bible? It tells us that the idea is to have compliant followers who will be willing to commit the worst crimes imaginable in the name of their religion.

Then we have all of the various genocides that the God of the Bible tells his followers to commit in his name, in which they are instructed to kill every man, woman, child, and all of the livestock (which they do). And then there is the infanticide of Passover.

And then of course, the incident in which Angels are visiting Lot and the people of the city come to Lot's house and demand that he send the Angles out so they can be raped. Lot says, "Let me send out my daughters instead. They are virgins." That happens right before the God of the Bible completely destroys two entire cities and all of the people in them.

You really need to spend a lot more time reading the Bible if you're going to be casting stones at Islam. Perhaps a better knowledge of what is in the Bible will stay your hand.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,MUPPETT
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 11:36 AM

I was always taught by my parents to treat EVERYBODY how you would like to be treated yourself, i.e. with respect.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 11:56 AM

I was always taught by my parents to treat EVERYBODY how you would like to be treated yourself, i.e. with respect.

the philosophy of a weakling. So when someone punches you in the stomach what do you do? You punch back!

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 12:10 PM

When God instructs Abraham to sacrifice (kill) his son, and Abraham is perfectly willing to do it. That, of course is infanticide. Why did God instruct Abraham to do this? Because it would be the ultimate test of Abraham's loyalty and faith. God gave Abraham a test that was in violation of everything the Bible tells us is right and good, and Abraham was willing to do it. That reminds me of the kinds of tests people are put to in organized crime and in gangs. You have to kill someone in order to prove your loyalty to the gang. What does that tell us about the God of the Christian Bible? It tells us that the idea is to have compliant followers who will be willing to commit the worst crimes imaginable in the name of their religion.

Indeed, and...as i have said, just as the bible once expoused views that were represented in the various churches against womens rights, abortion, even homosexuality, the church has now progressed to a more civilized standing to meet the new modern day. Can the same be said of Islam? Walking in Bradford today and watching hundreds of Muslim wearing veils to cover themselves, i guess it has not.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 12:22 PM

Indeed, and...as i have said, just as the bible once expoused views that were represented in the various churches against womens rights, abortion, even homosexuality, the church has now progressed to a more civilized standing to meet the new modern day. Can the same be said of Islam? Walking in Bradford today and watching hundreds of Muslim wearing veils to cover themselves, i guess it has not.

These kinds of generalizations show your agenda to be what it really is... to spread intolerance and hatred toward one specific group of people.

The TRUTH is that there are still many Christian churches that have not progressed to the point that you think, in which women are still required to be subservient and submissive toward men, and are regarded as having been created entirely for the benefit of men. They are entitled to make this decision for themselves.

And there are many Muslims who are far more liberal than the stereotype you are spreading about them. There are many Muslim women who do not wear a veil or a hijab, and are not required to by the leaders of their congregations. On the other hand, many Muslim women who do wear them, do so because it enables them to feel liberated from the burden of being regarded as sex objects by men.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 12:24 PM

Correction. My last post should read like this:

The TRUTH is that there are still many Christian churches that have not progressed to the point that you think, in which women are still required to be subservient and submissive toward men, and are regarded as having been created entirely for the benefit of men.

And there are many Muslims who are far more liberal than the stereotype you are spreading about them. There are many Muslim women who do not wear a veil or a hijab, and are not required to by the leaders of their congregations. On the other hand, many Muslim women who do wear them, do so because it enables them to feel liberated from the burden of being regarded as sex objects by men. They are entitled to make this decision for themselves.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 12:33 PM

These kinds of generalizations show your agenda to be what it really is... to spread intolerance and hatred toward one specific group of people.

?

The TRUTH is that there are still many Christian churches that have not progressed to the point that you think, in which women are still required to be subservient and submissive toward men, and are regarded as having been created entirely for the benefit of men.

Care to mention of these Christian Churches? Though i dare say there are a few no doubt about it, however, on the scale of comparison to islam, it is insignificant.

And there are many Muslims who are far more liberal than the stereotype you are spreading about them. There are many Muslim women who do not wear a veil or a hijab, and are not required to by the leaders of their congregations. On the other hand, many Muslim women who do wear them, do so because it enables them to feel liberated from the burden of being regarded as sex objects by men. They are entitled to make this decision for themselves.

I know, there are indeed many Muslim women who choose, or are lucky enough to not have to wear veils, however, in western society, whatever a womans choice, it is not punishable by having acid thrown on your face or being stoned to death!

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 12:36 PM

Acid in womans face

http://www.kurdmedia.com/news.asp?id=7197

BAGDAD, 4 Jul 2005 (IRIN) - For Sumeya Abdullah, a 34-year-old primary school teacher in the capital Baghdad, life will never be the same again. In late June she had her legs burned by corrosive acid in a street attack because, she believes, she was not wearing her veil and the traditional 'abaya' covering common in many Middle Eastern countries.

"I was shopping in one of the most crowded districts in Baghdad when I felt my skin burning by something corrosive. It was horrible, a terrible pain, then I found myself in hospital," Abdullah said.

Witnesses in the district where the attack happened, said that for more than two weeks, women have been targeted by acid attackers for dressing immodestly. Sometimes the assailants spray or throw the acid on foot, or on occasion, from a moving car. Other attacks have been even more shocking.

"A month ago I was walking from my college to my house when I was abducted in the street by three men. They dropped acid in my face and on my legs. They cut all my hair off while hitting me in the face many times telling me it's the price for not obeying God's wish in using the veil," Hania Abdul-Jabbar, a 23-year-old university student, recounted.

"Today I cannot see out of one eye because the acid made me lose my vision. I am afraid to leave my house. Now I am permanently disfigured with a monster face," she added with tears rolling down her swollen and scarred cheeks.

"The rights of freedom should be respected and each person has the right to choose what to wear. Those criminals should be in jail," Abdullah urged.

According to local police, dozens of women have had parts of their bodies burned by religious conservatives in a string of incidents throughout the capital in recent weeks. Maj Abbas Dilemi, a senior police investigator in Baghdad, said that most of the acid attacks had occurred in the Mansour and Kadhmyia districts of the city.

"Our sources have found that many children are being used to conduct such violence. The one adult we have arrested for this crime cannot accept Iraqi women wearing Western clothes and walking without veils, alleging that it's a prohibition by God," Dilemi said.

During Saddam Hussein's regime, Iraqi women were more or less free to wear what they wanted. In the 1980s Iraq was considered one of the most Western countries in the region in terms of fashion.

The current attacks and intimidation are not confined to the capital. In the western province of Anbar, female residents have received warnings not to go out without their veils and abayas since April 2004. Five women were reported killed in the province for not following the orders of religious radicals since the war the led to Hussein's downfall ended in May 2003.

"Our country is a Muslim country and women should respect this by wearing veils and long cloaks. I'm against the use of acid against them but something should be done to force them into wearing the clothes," Sheik Hussein Abbas, a radical Shi'ite leader in the capital, said.

Despite the attacks, many women are refusing to bow to the will of religious extremists.

"I won't force myself to use something that I don't feel comfortable with. Women in Iraq are losing their place in society and we have to fight that and determine who we are and how we should dress, despite these dangers," Hiba Zuheir, 24, a resident of Mansour district, said.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 12:46 PM

Care to mention of these Christian Churches? Though i dare say there are a few no doubt about it, however, on the scale of comparison to islam, it is insignificant.

The Southern Baptist Church in the US. The Mormon Church. Many small independant fundamentalist churches in the US. The Catholic Church.

I know, there are indeed many Muslim women who choose, or are lucky enough to not have to wear veils, however, in western society, whatever a womans choice, it is not punishable by having acid thrown on your face or being stoned to death!

There are many Muslim women who, when they don't wear the veil or the hijab, do not have to worry about having acid thrown on their faces or being stoned to death. That is a problem in some places, but hardly all of them. And there are other religions besides Islam in which women are punished with similar cruelty for not doing what they are told. Many Hindu women in India, for instance, are maimed, disfigured, and killed for not doing as they are told.

Islam, however badly you would like to make it out to be a monolithic entity in which the same conditions exist everywhere in the world for all Muslims, simply is not that way, any more than the Christian religion or any other religion is. There are many different levels of liberalism and fundamentalism within Islam, just as there are within Christianity and probably all other religions. Your broad, sweeping generalizations are just that... broad, sweeping generalizations. They do not in any way resemble the truth.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 12:49 PM

Thank God we are too civilised in the West to commit such acts. We just bury axes into innocent 18-year old kids' heads instead, for being the wrong colour. No, we're not racist, us.

On your doorstep, David.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 01:32 PM

Agree EL Greko, as harrowing as the case of Kriss Donald who was murdered and tortured in the back of a car and set on fire and body dumped. It was an Muslim on white attack. Killing someone for the colour of their skin is sick, sick and sick.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 02:14 PM

And then there are the many cases of Muslim women in Britain who are harassed and/or beaten because they wear a hijab. The Dean of the Muslim College in London has issued a fatwa instructing Muslim women there to take off their hijab if they feel they may come to some harm because of wearing it...

"A leading British Muslim scholar has said that Muslim women living in the European country, where Muslims have been suffering mounting abuse and harassment since the July 7 London attacks, can take off their hijab.

'I have issued a fatwa that Muslim women in Britain have an Islamic right to take off their hijab at this point of time if attacked or fearing to be attacked,' Dr. Zaki Badawi, the Dean of the Muslim College in London, told IslamOnline.net over the phone from the British capital.

Badawi said they have registered more than 15,00 assault against hijab-clad women during the past three days only, in addition to a flood of threat letters."

http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2005-07/28/article05.shtml

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 04:51 PM

David,

You sound like a learned person, howeven, I must agree with CarolC that yer sweeping generializations do not help yer position here but hinder it... The topic of this thread is ending racisim and you, IMO, are doing everything that the power stucture expects of its good little foot soldiers in throwing more gasoline on the fire...

Let'as go back to the example I pointed out in Matthew where Jesus tells the disciples that only thru Him can they know the Father (God). Well, lets turn the tables. What if someone of Islamic faith were to tell you that only thru Mohammed could you know Ala (God). Now this may seem to you to be a non-issue but when you turn the tables around and try to emphathize with someone who you are telling has no ability to have a relationship with God because your relgion is better than his then all you are doing is perpitrating a system of conflict and mistrust and misunderstanding...

If you can't see this point then I can't see that you are capable of being anyone I'd feel has any concrete motivation to end racism...

Peace

Bobert

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: jpk
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 06:39 PM

the racyist of the racist are at this moment are in africa,blacks killing blacks because they are black,all in the name of ethnic clensing,but i guess us whitie americans are to blame for that too,right bobert.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 07:14 PM

El Grecko, bringing up the death of the young lad in Liverpool and in so doing trying to say that we're not civilised is ridiculous, you know as well as I that virtually the whole country was stunned by it. And have you found ONE person praise it. Get real.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 10:50 PM

jpk,

No!

Genocide is horrible... I'd be quite willing to see the US military used in various areas of Africa to bring some order while Africa sorts out its various tribal issues... The Sudan is a good place to start... And long overdue...

But that doesn't change the fact that the world's so-called role model isn't doing much in the way of standin' up and sayin' that racism isn't acceptable...

Hey, it can't even bring itself to apologize for its own some 240 years of slavery??? LIke what's that all about??? Yet it wants other countries to play nice??? Hey, a good start would be fir it to get it's own skelatons out of the closet and get them buried...

Bobert

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 11:29 PM

Black people killing other Black people because they are Black? I don't think so.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 11:36 PM

Good point, Carol.... It ain't about that at all... It's tribal and territorial....

jpk's logic is way off here... It'd be like sayin' that black folks here in the US are killin' each other because the other one is, ahhhh, black????

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 03 Aug 05 - 10:17 AM

Agree Carol, though i think JPK was reffering to black-on black crime, i.e drugs, yardie gangs etc that are present in big numbers in London and Nottingham, etc, and i imagine the problem is far worse in the states.

When we think of Africa, in regard to racism, most think of the brutal killings of white farmer zimbabweans (Spelling?), who are targeted because they are white. White folk in South Africa, and Zimbabwe are the   biggest victims of race hate crime.

http://www.africancrisis.org/photos16.asp

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Aug 05 - 11:19 AM

The part I tend to disagree with is the idea that Black people are killing other Black people because they are racist against Blacks, as jpk appears to be saying.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Aug 05 - 11:22 AM

BTW, White people commit many crimes against other White people here, too. And White people against Black people. Black people are not the only people who commit crimes here in the US. I tend to suspect it is the same in Britain.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: muppett
Date: 03 Aug 05 - 11:33 AM

Guest, I've never been punched in the stomach by someone, apart from when mucking about and I like to think the reason for this is that I treat everybody the way I would Like to be treated myself i.e. with respect, a weakling ?????????????

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,jOhn
Date: 03 Aug 05 - 12:33 PM

ending racisimis easy,    just shoot allthe rasist people.
ie=go to there house, if they are rasists,shoot them.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 03 Aug 05 - 12:55 PM

BTW, White people commit many crimes against other White people here, too. And White people against Black people. Black people are not the only people who commit crimes here in the US. I tend to suspect it is the same in Britain.

Yes, agreed. I was simply clarifying jpk position on racist killings in Africa. The only racist murders i know taking place in Africa is against whites, especially farmers.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,jOhn fromHull
Date: 03 Aug 05 - 12:57 PM

Hello David.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 03 Aug 05 - 01:00 PM

ending racisimis easy,    just shoot allthe rasist people.
ie=go to there house, if they are rasists,shoot them.

hahaha. You would end up shooting everyone, i.e racists from all backgrounds, at least you would be indiscriminate. lololol. That was a joke everybody.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 03 Aug 05 - 01:13 PM

David-Open Mic session tonight at Spring Bank Tavern, town end of Spring Bank.
pop along if your not doing nowt,lets hear your stuff.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Aug 05 - 02:20 PM

muppett, and what if someone did punch you?

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: jpk
Date: 03 Aug 05 - 05:45 PM

they are carol,just look at dafar,and the killing is racist,with a bit of we like doing this on the side,weapon of chioce being the machete are such similar
and as far as buring skelitons,only when they figure out where to start.
i get sick and tired of everyone thinking that slavery was unique to america and white european settlers. IT DAMN WELL WAS NOT

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Aug 05 - 06:19 PM

You are saying that Black people in Darfur are killing other Black people in Darfur because they are Black, jpk?

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 12:13 AM

I want what jpk is smokin' if he's going to place the blame fir Darfur on racism????

I mean, if jpk is going to stick by this story, like it's beyond comprehension...

Like arguin' that Lee Harvey Osweld shot Kennedy becuase Kennedy was white?????

EXcuse me, jpk, but you've given the Wes Ginny Slide Rule a big ol' headache...

Bobert

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: dianavan
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 01:51 AM

Anybody who bases their lives on books that were written a couple of thousand years ago, must be pretty desperate for a value system. It doesn't matter if you read the Koran, the new testament or the old, they really have very little to say about the world we now live in.

Racism exists because there are ignorant people in this world that discriminate on the basis of skin colour.

I work with children of many colours and I can tell you for a fact that they do not discriminate when they want a playmate.

Discrimination is socially imposed and is not limited to colour.

Besides that, we have civil laws and do not have to rely on those books which were written long ago to tell us the difference between right and wrong.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: muppett
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 04:19 AM

Guest, what if it rains tomorrow, what if I get Knocked over by an elephant, Your point is .....................

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 04:48 AM

muppett...sorry, i misled you for someone who understood the meaning of ''hypothetical'.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: mooman
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 04:59 AM

Besides that, we have civil laws and do not have to rely on those books which were written long ago to tell us the difference between right and wrong.

Dianavan,

Whether or not one subscribes to a religion based on those books, I would question whether "civil laws" necessarily have the value to inform us of the difference between "right and wrong", except in the purely legal sense. Much of the despoilation of the environment and distortion of trade between rich and poor countries, for example, has been "legal".

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: dianavan
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 11:58 AM

You're right mooman. I tried to put two ideas into one sentence.

Many of the above quotes from the Koran involve punishment for breaking the law. The Bible is written in a similar tone but from a different perspective.

What I am trying to say is that those laws are now outdated and that civil law should be separate from religious law that was based on books written so long ago. This is why the separation of church and state is so necessary. You can read those books metaphorically but to try to apply those laws and the associated punishment to modern civilization is ridiculous.

As far as moral guidance - I still believe that if you listen to your heart, you will know the difference between right and wrong.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 01:27 PM

You can read those books metaphorically but to try to apply those laws and the associated punishment to modern civilization is ridiculous.

Agreed, but the problem is that many extremist Muslims are taking them literally. Western Civilization updated and modernised Christianity so as to cope and adapt to the new world, and freedoms in the new world.

Islam, is however regressing, or at least static. Muslim nationes still infringe on the basic of human rights, take for instance the rights of women, who are forced to be veiled, are not permitted an education, are not even allowed the vote.Women are stoned for adultery, etc, or for not covering their body's or faces accordingly. This all takes place in Iran for instance.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,Dave Hannam
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 02:08 PM

Damn those itallics

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 02:14 PM

The problem, David, is not Islam. The problem is extremism in any form. It is extremism that we need to be criticizing and addressing. Not any one specific religion (especially considering the fact that most, if not all major religions have destructive extremist elements).

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 02:20 PM

Yes i understand that Carol, but Islam is the subject at hand simply because Muslim terrorists are professing Islam, and committing atrocities in the name of 'allah'.

I am saying that whilst Islam remains centuries behind, and does not progress, and remains the biggesr religion to infringe on human rights, Muslim nationes still infringe on the basic of human rights, rights of women, who are forced to be veiled, are not permitted an education, are not even allowed the vote.Women are stoned for adultery, etc, or for not covering their body's or faces accordingly.

These are the actions of a backward and outdated faith. Like Christianity did, Islam should modernise too. Do you agree Islam should modernize?

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 02:39 PM

David,
you keep harping on about Christianity having modernised. I beg to differ, because I cannot reconcile your statement with the atrocities committed in Bosnia and other places in ex-Yugoslavia. How modern were those Christians shelling the busy marketplace? Was that not terrorism, aimed at non-combatants as it were? And that is just one of the examples that the 1990s provided us with, in that small corner of the world alone.

No, I'll go with CarolC - extremism is the problem. And racism is not "caused" by religion, it's caused by perceived differences: of skin colour, tribal allegiance, anything that makes one uneducated moron fear another. Religion is then sometimes used as a convenient cloak to dress up racism and to facilitate conversion of others to the "cause" of the racist. And the racist will use any interpretation of the Qur'an or the Talmud or the Bible etc that suits his/her purpose. He/she is helped (unwittingly or not) in this by those who - as dianavan points out - take the old scriptures literally, making no allowances for the intervening passage of time.

But I disagree, dianavan, that religion is redundant and listening to one's heart is sufficient. One could say that this rule is followed by killers, thieves, mass murderes etc. Not all hearts are pure, unfortunately, so some "external" code of conduct is still required.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 03:18 PM

Yes i understand that Carol, but Islam is the subject at hand simply because Muslim terrorists are professing Islam, and committing atrocities in the name of 'allah'.

No it isn't. The reason Islam is being discussed in the way it is in this thread is because there are people (like you) who are trying to spread hatred towards all Muslims because of the actions of some Muslims.

There really are people who commit atrocities in the name of Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, and many other religions... even today. But you don't tend to hear so much about them because the groups they belong to aren't the ones currently being scapegoated by the "powers that be".

For instance, it was Christians who committed the massacres at Sabra and Shatilla, and Jews who sent the heavily armed Christians into those undefended camps and left them alone while they did their dirty work.

whilst Islam remains centuries behind

Statements like this are misleading, not true, and also are designed to do one thing and one thing only... spread intolerance and hate.

You can't say "Islam is" anything at all since there are factions within Islam that have progressed just as far as the more liberal factions within any other religion. Making a blanket statement like that about Islam is simply a lie. It is not a lie to say that some factions within Islam remain centuries behind. But that can also be said about most other major religions.

Saying that Islam as a religion is centuries behind just because some factions within it may be centuries behind would be the same as if I said "White male Christians are rapists", just because some White male Christians are rapists.

Again, the problem is extremist fundamentalism. Not Islam itself.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: dianavan
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 05:04 PM

"I am saying that whilst Islam remains centuries behind, and does not progress, and remains the biggesr religion to infringe on human rights, Muslim nationes ..." blah, blah, blah

What about Uzbekistan? Even moderate Muslims are arrested and tortured. Seems that their non-Muslim president (Karimov) likes to boil his tortured Muslims when he's finished with them.

When you try to blame Muslims for living in the past, you are wrong. There are plenty of Christians and Jews who cling to Orthodoxy. None of this has to do with torture or terrorism.

Torture and terrorism are carried out by powerful fanatics who use religion as an excuse to demonize others.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: jpk
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 06:25 PM

you all are so damn blind,it is all about power and greed[control of others]the koran,bible,other excuses, are nothing more than tools being used to futher there ends.
and yes,the powers that want to be/are will use race as well and if it means black at black white at white for what ever reason they will do so,and yes darfur,those doing the killing do use there so called racial diffrences as an excuse to kill

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 06:25 PM

No it isn't. The reason Islam is being discussed in the way it is in this thread is because there are people (like you) who are trying to spread hatred towards all Muslims because of the actions of some Muslims.

Excuse me, all the muslim intolerance threads, and this one were not started by me. Please get your facts correct. And, i don't spread hatred. I like the way once someone actually debates a point with a liberal, all the liberal can do is scream names and abuse.

There really are people who commit atrocities in the name of Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, and many other religions... even today. But you don't tend to hear so much about them because the groups they belong to aren't the ones currently being scapegoated by the "powers that be".

No, the reason Muslims are the topic of interest, is because Muslims are bombing Britain. My only interest is in Britain, not in eastern europe, not the far-east, not anywhere. And before you say they are extremists, not Muslims, those terrorists used to belief of Allah and the purposes of Islam how THEY intepretated it, to instill in them the belief to bomb and kill.

I have never said, and you can look, as their is probably 20 instances when i have said, that i believe it is unfair to say all muslims are guilty, all i am saying, is that the muslim community needs to look at extremists on their doorsteps, and in their mosques and protect especially their young from being misled.

There is a news item, which i shall get for you in the next post about a UK Muslim woman having acid thrown in her face because she didn't attend the mosque when supposed to. This is barbaric, and although i accept that such crimes are committed by all peoples, when those actions are condoned in the Koran, it is very worrying.

Yes, Christianity has progressed, ok, in Uzbekistan i am sure their are injustices, but we are talking about the UK now, the Western world, and Christianity has, progressed and adapted. We believe in the rights of women for instance to vote, dress how they wish, to have an education.

Statements like this are misleading, not true, and also are designed to do one thing and one thing only... spread intolerance and hate.

Knee-jerk liberal response. I know Christians in the UK don't throw acid in the face of their wifes because they didn't attend church. Is this is not backward??????

Again, the problem is extremist fundamentalism. Not Islam itself.

Extremist Muslim fundamentalism. For it is muslim extremists who are bombing us. It would only be extremists alone, if relgion was not their motivation to kill.

Once again, it is senseless to blame all muslims, but whilst the UK still has tthe huge immigration problem where 60% of immigrants are Muslim, we are ticking on a time-bomb.

eeeh, i do love our squabbles. lol

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 08:06 PM

This thread was not started as a Muslim intolerance thread. It was started as a thread that highlights the aspects of Islam that promote tolerance.

Knee-jerk liberal response. I know Christians in the UK don't throw acid in the face of their wifes because they didn't attend church. Is this is not backward??????

I'm not a liberal.

Men who are not Muslims do horrible things to women in Britain all the time, David (and sometimes they even kill them). And I know that some of them believe they are entitled to because God created Eve entirely for the benefit of Adam, and because the Bible tells them that it is their right. Many of these men are Christians.

And then there are the non-Muslim men who abuse Muslim women just because they are Muslims.

I have never said, and you can look, as their is probably 20 instances when i have said, that i believe it is unfair to say all muslims are guilty, all i am saying, is that the muslim community needs to look at extremists on their doorsteps, and in their mosques and protect especially their young from being misled.

Every time you say "Islam is" this or that, you are blaming all Muslims. There is no monolithic entity you can point a finger at called "Islam" that you can make blanket statements about. As I have repeatedly said, there are too many different kinds of Islam for you to be able to do that. Every time you say "Islam is" you are including all Muslims in your statement. And in that way you spread hatred and intolerance.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 08:29 PM

I posted="shoot the rasists"

David hanam says= Qoute="you would shoot everyone."


thats not true, most people i know are not rasist.


ps= in fact, i dont give a flying fuck were somebody comes from.
if they are good people, they good people [ie=happy, good sence of humor etc], plenty of my frends come from different countries.


and anyway= loads of foreign doctors, so kick em all out, then helf service is fucked!

anyway= i , [my uncke is a doctor, and we lived with him wehn i was little, and all neebours was foreign,],but iwas not bothered,

[i was speaking Urdu aged five, and eating curry, and chappatis.


different culture is good [food, musicc etc].

john