How to End Racism

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 02:31 PM

Can you find some passages in the Bible that resemble the very vivid horror depicted in the Qur'an passages below. Mutilation, killing, suicide killing, amputation, rape, pillage, etc.

Can you find any of these passages similar in the Bible?

To be fair Carol, a lot has been done in the name of Christianity. But, Christianity has progressed and changed to meet the new modern times. Christianity accepts women as equals in society, etc.

Islam, on the other hand, can hardly be said to have shown that same progression. Take the mass stonings that still take place in Iran as one example. Absolutely horrific.

Qur'an 2:191 "And kill them wherever you find and catch them. Drive them out from where they have turned you out; for Al-Fitnah (polytheism, disbelief, oppression) is worse than slaughter."

Qur'an 33:60 "Truly, if the Hypocrites stir up sedition, if the agitators in the City do not desist, We shall urge you to go against them and set you over them. Then they will not be able to stay as your neighbours for any length of time. They shall have a curse on them. Whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain without mercy—a fierce slaughter—murdered, a horrible murdering."

Qur'an 5:33 "The punishment for those who wage war against Allah and His Prophet and make mischief in the land, is to murder them, crucify them, or cut off a hand and foot on opposite sides...their doom is dreadful. They will not escape the fire, suffering constantly."

Qur'an 9:5 "When the sacred forbidden months for fighting are past, fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, torture them, and lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."

Qur'an 8:12 "Your Lord inspired the angels with the message: 'I will terrorize the unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes."

Qur'an 4:94 "Believers, when you go abroad to fight wars in Allah's Cause, investigate carefully, and say not to anyone who greets you: 'You are not a believer!' Coveting the chance profits of this life (so that you may despoil him). With Allah are plenteous spoils and booty."

Qur'an 47:33 "Believers, obey Allah, and obey the Messenger. Do not falter; become faint-hearted, or weak-kneed, crying for peace."

Qur'an 9:3 "Allah is not bound by any contract or treaty with non-Muslims, nor is His Apostle."

Qur'an 9:12 "If they violate their oaths and break treaties, taunting you for your Religion, then fight these specimens of faithlessness."

Qur'an 9:88 "The Messenger and those who believe him, strive hard and fight jihad with their wealth and lives (in Allah's Cause)."

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 01:31 PM

If we are going to be collecting and posting examples from religious literature of passages that promote intolerance and/or hate, why are we selecting them from the literature of only one of the world's major religions. All of the three major monotheistic religions contain many examples of such passages. Or even the news items about events that demonstrate these things. Examples of these kinds of extremism can also be found in most of the world's major religions. Perhaps Mr. Price's selectivity is, indeed, and example of the very thing he appears to be criticizing.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 12:02 PM

Shakey,
perhaps I am overstating the Flemish-Dutch divide; but it is definitely there (and I rather agree with you about the reasons; the Dutch can be boisterous and often appear unintentionally rude). Antwerp and Gent are the two Belgian cities I know best, so that probably colours my view. As to the Flemish-Walloon divide, yes indeed, that's another story altogether, from what I know - though I have little first hand experience other than the looks I got the first time I spoke Dutch in the "wrong" Brussels district!

As you are married to a Flemish lady you no doubt get much more practice than I do - I only manage to keep my Dutch up through calling friends regularly for a chat. And you'll get the best of the accents; I always preferred the softer Flemish and their sometimes older word usage to the "modern is good" Dutch.

Mijne besten aan jullie beiden.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Azizi
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 10:45 AM

Snce this is a music forum, here's a song that conveys what I feel about spirit and determination of individuals who confront racism and other forms of bigotry:

Something Inside So Strong
by Labi Siffre

The higher you build your barriers
The taller I become
The farther you take my rights away
The faster I will run
You can deny me
You can decide to turn your face away
No matter, cause there's....

Something inside so strong
I know that I can make it
Tho' you're doing me wrong, so wrong
You thought that my pride was gone
Oh no, something inside so strong
Oh oh oh oh oh something inside so strong

The more you refuse to hear my voice
The louder I will sing
You hide behind walls of Jericho
Your lies will come tumbling
Deny my place in time
You squander wealth that's mine
My light will shine so brightly
It will blind you
Cause there's......

Something inside so strong
I know that I can make it
Tho' you're doing me wrong, so wrong
You thought that my pride was gone
Oh no, something inside so strong
Oh oh oh oh oh something inside so strong

Brothers and sisters
When they insist we're just not good enough
When we know better
Just look 'em in the eyes and say
I'm gonna do it anyway x 2

Something inside so strong
And I know that I can make it
Tho' you're doing me wrong, so wrong
You thought that my pride was gone
Oh no, something inside so strong
Oh oh oh oh oh something inside so strong

Brothers and sisters
When they insist we're just good not enough
When we know better
Just look 'em in the eyes and say
I'm gonna do it anyway x 4

Because there's something inside so strong
And I know that I can make it
Tho' you're doing me, so wrong
Oh no, something inside so strong
Oh oh oh oh oh something inside so strong

-snip-


Positive vibrations,


Azizi

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 10:15 AM

freda underhill, if ever there was an epitomy of liberal arrogance, you are it.

basically, why not just say it, anyone who criticizes multi-culturalism is wrong, evil and a fascist. The only people we can truly trust, is people like you!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Shakey
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 10:13 AM

Well it sounds good Freda but let's have a look more closely.

I work in an area that liaises with people of different ethnic backgrounds, to respond to racist attacks against them, to work constructively in tense situations, and to brief politicians on issues effecting people of different backgrounds.

I trust when you write effecting people of different backgrounds you include the indegenous population, or are their concerns not legitimate?

People who are explaining should never be accepted, um, interesting viewpoint, you don't write people who are attacking, you use the explaining and then dismiss it.

divide rather rather than heal I wasn't aware that heal was the opposite of divide, what the heck, let's go with it. If a doctor wants to heal someone he generally, one would hope, examines what is wrong before he attempts to prescribe a course of action.

What worries me with your post, as with many of the posts here, is the assumption that certain topics are off limits. They are not.
Elseware on this board I have indicated many times that we should not attack all muslims, it's simply wrong, but that does not mean that we shouldn't discuss the fact that Islam has a problem, don't believe me, read this weeks reports from the Algerian press, the Egyptian press, Al Jazeera (sp?) etc.

I think we should discuss such things, if ignorant bigotted scum want to make racist remarks I will support you in opposing it 100% but if they have something real to say on the matter that's fine.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: freda underhill
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 08:53 AM

I work in an area that liaises with people of different ethnic backgrounds, to respond to racist attacks against them, to work constructively in tense situations, and to brief politicians on issues effecting people of different backgrounds.

In every situation where there are differences, we choose how to respond. There are always people in every community that seek to divide, and those that seek to understand and unite. And those that divide are big on "explaining" why "other" people are different and can and should never be accepted. we even have a couple of regulars (the BNP guy and now Robert Price) who come to threads such as this and seek to divide rather than heal. I see them as the other side of the coin to the people they are criticising. The only different is the haircuts.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Shakey
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 08:31 AM

El Grecko, I think you are vastly overstating the case. I have been going to both countries since '74, I have been married to a Flemish Belgian since '76.

It's true that there is some tension in Antwerp however this is in large part due to the fact that it (Antwerp) gets invaded each weekend by many Dutch young people who are rather noisy and boisterous, not to say a little arrogant. One thing it does show is that the Dutch know a wonderful city when they see one.

Whatever tensions do exist they pale into nothing when compared with the Flemish / Waloon divide though even this has become more civilised in recent years.

I speak fluent Dutch, have many Dutch and Belgian friends, I just don't recognise the picture you paint.

Groetjes
Shakey

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,Robert Price
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 08:24 AM

Yes, i wouldn't even call it research to be fair, i simply searched for verses from the Koran, and let the passages do the talking. It amounts to a vile assemble of hatred i found that spewed from the pages of that so-called 'scripture'.

What other word than hateful can describe the following passages,

Sura 9:5 - "When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters (non-Muslims) wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent (convert) and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way. God is forgiving and merciful."

Surah 5:51 - Muslim must not take a Jew or a a Christian for a friend

Surah 5:38 - Stealing is punished by the amputation of the hands

Surah 5:33 - Resisting Islam is punished by death, crucifixion or the cutting off of the hands and feet

Surah 9:29 - Muslims must fight until their opponents submit to Islam

Surah 24:2 - Adultery is punished by public flogging

Surah 55:54-56 - Heaven in Islam is the place where a Muslim will be reclining, eating meats and delicious fruits, drinking exquisite wines, and engaging in sex with virgins.

Woman Stoned in name of 'peaceful islam'
http://www.bibleprobe.com/stoning-tn.jpg

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 08:15 AM

Yo, Robert Price...

I included "even yer composition" of cut and paste quotes... See, alot of folks here just willy-nilly will take entire cut and paste assemblages and post them... I don't mind if someone wants to do the research and assemble a number of quotes but there have been way too many folks who just let others do that work for them... Unfortunately, manytimes, theses compositions come from one particulat well funded organization or another with a particular axe to grind and what happens in discussions is that folks tend to let the organizations do the discussing...

Now that can be fine but since this is supposed to be a discussion forum, a few of the posters own ideas never hurts...

And, excuse me, Part 2, if these quotes are quotes that you actually researched and assembed into the the above composition....

Peace

Bobert

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 07:08 AM

Agree, Jon - horrible. And the cause looks like colour-hate rather than anything else. Apparently they have made an arrest; I hope they throw the key away.

Shakey,
I did indeed mean the Dutch-Flemish divide (not the Flemish-Waloon one). And there definitely is one; ask in Antwerp or Gent what they think of their Dutch cousins. And remember always the Belgian character that avoids direct confrontation at first at least. You often need to spend a lot of time with the Flemish before they will open up on subjects like this. Typically, Flemish jokes about the Dutch abound (my favorite one is the one about the cows with the wooden legs, alluding to Dutch stingyness). The Flemish dislike of the Dutch runs deep - it may not be obvious at first, but is none weaker for that.

On the other hand, the Dutch generally have a disdain for all Belgians, not specific to Waloons or Flemish. Perhaps they do consider the Flemish "cousins", but they don't really make any allowances for that in their feelings.

I am generalising here, of course, and there are sensible people in both countries, who are above all that, the same as in the rest of the world. I am referring to the overall atmosphere of mistrust.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 06:56 AM

A particulary nasty bit of racism happened in Mersyside this weekend (see here).

It doesn't seem to me as if Islam or any other scripture had anything to do with it....

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,Shakey
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 06:40 AM

El Grecko writes:

...in BeNeLux, with Dutch and Belgians (who actually have a deeper mistrust of each other than the Greeks and Turks) in 1990-93

Did you mean this, or are you referring to the friction between the Dutch (Flemish speaking Belgians and the French (Waloons) speakers.

If you did mean what you say, then I'm sorry, it's nonsense. I lived for ten years in Holland and ten years in Belgium.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,Robert Price
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 04:28 AM

Silly sod, of course they are not my words, that is why they are Quotes. Quotes, you know...quotes....? and...i think these quotes say it all.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 07:20 PM

Nice cut and paste, GUEST, Robert Prince... Now perhaps you'd like to chime in in yer own words and not those of others, please...

Bobert

p.s. Firgive me if these are yer words or even yer composition of quotes but it seems a little on the cut and paste side....

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,Robert Price
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 01:43 PM

"We have to give a sacrifice.. and the sacrifice I'm talking about is the blood sacrifice.. We have people with Kalashnikovs.. and you declare Jihad against the Kufr.. Get training.. there must be some martial arts brothers amongst yourselves.. you have to pump into the brothers that.. what are you training for? It's so you can get the Kufr and.. crush his head in your arms.. so you can wring his throat.. so you can whip his intestines out... That's why your doing training… to rip the people to pieces. Forget waiting a bullet on them – Cut them in half!" - Britain's Muslim Sheikh Abu Hamza al-Masri


"The life of estrangement will lead… to [a] change in the situation of the country in which we live, as the Muslims changed the situation in Abyssinia and Indonesia. Allah willing, we will transform the West into Dar Al-Islam [that is, a region under Islamic rule] by means of invasion from without. If an Islamic state arises and invades [the West] we will be its army and its soldiers from within. If not, [we will change the West] through ideological invasion from here, without war and killing." - Britain's Muslim Shaikh Omar Bakri Mohammad, London-based daily Al-Hayat


"Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant . . . The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth." - Omar Ahmad of the Council on American Islamic Relations


"I consider this type of martyrdom operation (suicide bombing) as an indication of the justice of Allah Almighty. Allah Almighty is just – through his infinite wisdom he has given the weak what the strong do not possess and that is the ability to turn their bodies into bombs like the Palestinians do." - Sheikh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi, London -BBC Newsnight, July 7 2004


"We will fight for Osama Bin Laden and Islam, not for Queen and country."

"We will continue our struggle until the flag of Islam flies over 10 Downing Street."

Both said by Abu Haq, spokesman for Al Muhajiroun, speaking on Radio 2's Jimmy Young programme, 31st October 2001.


"I always say I would like to see the Islamic flag over 10 Downing Street. It's my dream over the whole world." - Britain's cleric Sheikh Omar Bakri Muhammed, April 4, 2004, The Independent


Surah 2:228 - Men are superior to women

Surah 2:282 - Women have half the rights of men: in court witness and in inheritance Surah 2:223 A wife is a sex object for her husband

Surah 4:43 - A man may punish his wife by beating her
Surah 4:3 - A man may marry up to four wives at the same time

Sura 9:30 "Make war upon such of those to whom the Scriptures have been given as believe not in God, or in the Last Day, and who forbid not that which God and His Apostle have forbidden, and who profess not the profession of the truth, until they pay tribute out of hand, and they be humbled. The Jews say, "Ezra is a son of God"; and the Christians say, "The Messiah is a son of God." Such the sayings in their mouths! They resemble the saying of the infidels of old! God do battle with them!

Sura 9:5 - "When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters (non-Muslims) wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent (convert) and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way. God is forgiving and merciful."

Surah 5:51 - Muslim must not take a Jew or a a Christian for a friend

Surah 5:38 - Stealing is punished by the amputation of the hands

Surah 5:33 - Resisting Islam is punished by death, crucifixion or the cutting off of the hands and feet

Surah 9:29 - Muslims must fight until their opponents submit to Islam

Surah 24:2 - Adultery is punished by public flogging

Surah 55:54-56 - Heaven in Islam is the place where a Muslim will be reclining, eating meats and delicious fruits, drinking exquisite wines, and engaging in sex with virgins.

Woman Stoned in name of 'peaceful islam'
http://www.bibleprobe.com/stoning-tn.jpg

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Jul 05 - 09:36 PM

I don't see pushin' diversity as the wrong thing to be doin'... Quite the opposite... We've seen the alternative and it wasn't very pretty!!!

Yeah, I hear a lot of white folks sayin' the same thing... "Awww, lets just move on, nuthin' to see here..." But5, there is something to see here and that is that black folks have been playin' on an unlevel palyin' field going back a long, long time... Yeah, go to any city in the United Sate4s and you can find ghettoes of predominant6ly black folks who have been coraled up into housin' projects with kids livin' like kids live in 3rd World countries!!!

Don't believe me? Go check it out fir yerself 'er come to Washington, D.C. for a personalized Bobert tour...

Yeah, it sure is nice fir white folks to throw up their arms and say "Hey, I ain't responsible fir this. Why should I care 'bout what my grand-daddy did?"....

Well, fir one, those of you who might have that opinion, you are living in a country whose wealth was created disporportionately on the backs of black slaves and descendents of slaves. You were not there to create this infastrcture or this wealth but you were lucky enough to be born to a family who has benefited form it. You are a benefactor and being so you *owe* something to the folks who weren't as lucky as you to be born into "white" families...

And secondly, or is it thirdly, acceptin' a collective responsiblity fir the past is the least that a country that has been built on the backs of slaves and descendats of slaves, can go a long way toward a healing/repairation process that is so long, long overdue...

Bobert

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 05 - 05:35 PM

Truth, science and education are what we need in our schools and in our society, not faith, prejudice, manipulation, myth, and lies.

And therein lies the key to the future. But organised religion will never let it happen alas. It is the biggest threat to the 21st century.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: jpk
Date: 30 Jul 05 - 04:48 PM

azizi,well put.
this day and age,the powers that be are telling us we have to imbrace diversity.why.that issue is what they are using to splitt us apart.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Azizi
Date: 30 Jul 05 - 04:41 PM

I just found an interesting discussion on race HERE .

Here are some excerpts from that discussion:

as the NYTimes Ed Board points out, race is not an easily described concept genetically:


"[A]t Pennsylvania State University, where about 90 students took complex genetic screening tests that compared their samples with those of four regional groups . . . [m]any of these students thought of themselves as "100 percent" white or black or something else, but only a tiny fraction of them, as it turned out, actually fell into that category. Most learned instead that they shared genetic markers with people of different skin colors.

Ostensibly "black" subjects, for example, found that as much as half of their genetic material came from Europe, with some coming from Asia as well. One "white" student learned that 14 percent of his DNA came from Africa - and 6 percent from East Asia. The student told The Daily Collegian, the student newspaper, earlier this year: "When I got my results I was like, there's no way they were mine. I thought it was just an example of what the test was supposed to look like. Then I was like, Oh my God, that's me."..."

-snip-

"Ramblings of a pediatrician.

In my job, I have to make a statement of the race of children. It grinds me to no end, for the reasons raised, and for others, which I will not get into. Maybe another day on that last.

It has been suggested to me "not to worry about it, just use the race of the child's mother." Talk about begging the question.

The argument goes that we need to classify people in order to compile data, to calculate whether or not races are treated equally? Maybe that is valid, as long as classifying them doesn't lead to discrimination, which I think it sometimes does.

As a doctor, I recognize that certain genetic conditions vary according to race, and that these variations can result in an increased risk of certain diseases, and now we actually have one medication which seems to have different actions which can be correlated with "race". But those questions, to this point, are almost never an issue.

But in spite of this, I come back to the question of how one determines race without taking a complete genetic history (which is often impossible or very time consuming and usually incomplete, inaccure or downright false); and in pursuing that thought, I get boggled by the issue of trying to determine whether someone is 12.5% or 8.33% (% of what?) white, black, brown, or yellow, I realize that this effort is hopeless. Further, for some purposes, one cannot classify a person successfully just by doing a family history. Certain races demand phenotypic (appearance) purity for membership.

The question for a doctor treating a child is increasingly going to be not what the mother thinks her own race is, but what the child's DNA says at certain loci that control certain synthetic/metabolic pathways. A self-described brown person can have a "white gene."

Which raises the issue of consequences of medical treatment: What will happen to a "white" person if it is revealed by her medication that he/she has a "black" gene? Will certain races demand genetic "purity' as well as pure racial appearance, for membership?

Too much information. Isn't it tempting to just get rid of all attempts to classify racially?

But we can't deny discrimination still exists....what would happen to efforts to prevent discrimination, if we drop all racial descriptors? What about proving voter intimidation, what about being able to document "separate but equal?"

I don't have any easy answers but I do know that the more we can educate our kids about what makes up our genes and how they mutate and vary and that all of us are polyglots, the better off we will be.

Truth, science and education are what we need in our schools and in our society, not faith, prejudice, manipulation, myth, and lies.

Just a pediatrician's ramblings."

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 05:14 PM

no..Shambleism is the problem...Shambleitis is the affliction.

The condition is studied by Shambletonians. ('race' experts ;>)

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: jpk
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 05:12 PM

how to end it,stop happing on it and reminding people about it.
the more you push it the more it is seen and not always in the best light.
the more you dwell on race the more it is used to split peoples apart.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 03:32 PM

I confess, I am afflicted by the condition

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 03:27 PM

That's blatant shambelism.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 03:16 PM

For Gawd's sake, don't tell Shambles...

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: PoppaGator
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 02:31 PM

Ha! Unless I was hallucinating, this thread was "upstairs" when I began writing my response, but suddenly moved down to BS by the time I posted. Someone else must have been thinnking the same as me, at the very same time...

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: PoppaGator
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 02:29 PM

Why is this not "BS"? Because BS didn't exist when it was started on 02 Feb 03?

For the record, I am among those who believe that increased understanding is an antedote to racism, probably the only one. Would recism disappear completely if everyone in the world achieved perfect understanding? Of course it would ~ but I'm not holding my breath...

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 02:04 PM

Ringer, you're mixing arguments. "Promotes less racism" is not the same as "To understand everything is to be completely non-racist". They are two distinctly different propositions. And while I agree with you that the latter is idealistic and ignores human nature, I do support the former view.

The explanation is simple, and has effectively already been given above: One of the causes of racism is fear and mistrust. Understanding (and education) reduces that mistrust and fear and therefore works towards eliminating one of the causes of racism. It doesn't wipe it out, it doesn't eradicate it - but it does reduce it.

I have personal experience of this from my own early contacts with Turkish colleagues (being Greek myself, and therefore taught at school to fear and mistrust the Turks). As I got to know them better that mistrust eventually disappeared, to the point where I felt very comfortable visiting Istanbul some 70-80 times and living there a total of 1 year or more (albeit in bits).

This made me think. And later I used it very effectively in forging together single teams:
a) In BeNeLux, with Dutch and Belgians (who actually have a deeper mistrust of each other than the Greeks and Turks) in 1990-93. 80 people working happily with each other, cooperating, recognising and using each other's strengths and covering for each other's weaknesses. That work environment "union" led to a number of cross-border friendships and 2 marriages!
b) in the East Mediterranean, I repeated this with the Greek, Turkish and Cypriot teams in 1996-98.

The process involved getting them to spend time together. Not just in meetings, but also in day-long (and week-long) workshops; and getting them to work in each other's offices, deal with each other's customers and each other's problems. They soon realised that their common points were many more thatn the differences. Then they lowered their guard enough to start understanding those differences and their causes. Within a year they were proud to be spearheading a cross-border unification that preceded the company's overall efforts (in the case of BeNeLux) or any friendly overtures by governments (in the case of Greece-Turkey).

There's your proof. I can give you names, telephone numbers, email addresses for cross-checking - I still keep in touch with many of them, and they would gladly confirm the above facts.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Ringer
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 01:15 PM

Is there any evidence that "understanding" promotes less racism? The opening post on this thread said, "we can easily end racism through understanding and education."

Myself, I don't believe it. Whoever said (I think it was a Frenchman) "To understand everything is to forgive everything" was talking through his hat, and to say "To understand everything is to be completely non-racist" knows, imo, little about human nature.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: freda underhill
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 11:56 AM

In Sydney, there is an education program called "The Goodness and Kindness campaign". A priest, a rabbi and a mufti go as a threesome to high schools, sharing with the kids about their religions, the similarities and differences.

This is a great example of a positive program for understanding.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Amos
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 11:48 AM

A big 10-4 on that one, 'Zizi. The Big Brains left out one key ingredient. Personal integrity, compassion and intelligence can cure racism. These are spiritual values, though, so they wouldn't know about that, I reckon.


A

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: freda underhill
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 11:46 AM

agreed, Azizi.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Azizi
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 11:39 AM

Electric shocks to end racism? No thanks.

Increased interactions with people of other races/ethnicities-Yes.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: freda underhill
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 11:18 AM

Racial fear banished by closer contact; By Deborah Smith Science Editor July 30, 2005, sydney morning herald

By treating men and women like Pavlov's dogs, and giving them electric shocks while they looked at pictures of black and white men, researchers have unravelled our innate and learnt reactions to race.
We have evolved to fear people from a different group to our own, in the same way they we fear spiders and snakes, it was found. But close contact can help counter this inherent fear.

Arne Ohman, of the Karolinska Institute in Sweden, said the findings were important in an age of terrorism, when worries about the threat from "evil others" loomed large in the minds of many. "To help cope with this situation we need a scientific understanding of the emotional dynamics of intergroup conflicts." Recognising that humans were prone to fearing, avoiding and demonising people outside their own group, but that close contact could reduce this effect, might help combat the development of "emotionally charged stereotypes" that fed the fear, Dr Ohman said.

The notion that some primeval fears have become hard-wired in humans during millions of years of evolution is suggested by the fact that people tend to hate creepy-crawly insects, yet don't fear cars, which kill a lot more people. For the latest study, which was published yesterday in the journal Science, young black and white Americans living in New York were given electric shocks when they looked at pictures of spiders, snakes, birds, butterflies and black and white faces with neutral expressions. Like Pavlov's dogs, which learnt to salivate at the sound of a bell, they developed a fear of all these creatures.

When the electric shocks were stopped, people's fear of birds, butterflies and faces the same colour as their own quickly vanished, but they remained scared of snakes, spiders and faces of a different race. Humans have only evolved into distinct races in the past 100,000 years. Like a car, this was too recent for a fear of race per se to have evolved, the researchers said. Rather, humans would have evolved a fear of outsiders. Attitudes to race were then learnt and imposed on top of this.

The study also found that those who had dated people from the other race let go of their fears of these people more easily, once the electric shocks were stopped. "The optimistic news is that this predisposition to fear members of another race may be changed by close personal contact," said Mahzarin Banaji, a member of the research team at Harvard University.

"We are products of our evolutionary history and our immediate social environment. The former we don't control, the latter we certainly do."

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Sam L
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 05:45 PM

As I said on the last version of this thread, I think maybe racial hatred is more about hatred than race. The things that make people unhappy and lost will find objects to strike at.
   There's still bias without hatred, but I think that's laziness, and it still adds up to significant, predictable, harm. It becomes a Usual Suspect, and is worth rounding up, interrogating, keeping an eye on.

Cluin reminds me of a misfortune ( my daughter and I make misfortune cookies)--All the people you feel superior to will suddenly die.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,Les in Chorlton, Manchester
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 04:06 PM

You can dig around in human variation (let's avoid difference) and it is absolutley fascinating how people have changed since we left Africa. But them Nazis killed lots of people who looked pretty much like them as well as others who looked a little different.

Racism = Prejudice + Power

The equation needs both.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Cluin
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 03:24 PM

Perhaps it's an inherent human need and racism is just another version of tribal in-group thinking we're all saddled with. It could be "racial", or it could be geographic, ligual, socio-political, philosophical, religious, economic, etc. differences that balkanize our global identities.

Like Kris Kristofferson sang:

Everybody's got to have somebody to look down on
Someone they feel better than at any time they choose
Someone doing something dirty decent folks can frown on
If you can't find nobody else, then help yourself to me

That's why the Jerry Springer Show is so popular, isn't it?

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Frankham
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 10:56 AM

Also, there is the study of genotypes. This would be cultural and physical characteristics together. They can give us insight into how certain people with similar characteristics will behave under certain environmental conditions. A genotype might be a Norwegian propensity for blonde blue eyes and large bone structure. Under certain clinical conditions, this information might be useful. As a general concept applied to all aspects of culture including what constitutes "racism", maybe not so helpful.

I think there is a built-in tendency toward "racism", "violence" or "addiction" but as homo sapiens, we might have been biologically equipped to deal with their negative aspects.

Just an opinion. Can't verify it scientifically.

Frank

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 10:18 AM

Actually, it does have a scientific application. Tracking the flow of hereditary traits, especially such simple ones as control some factors of appearance, can tell an anthropologist a great deal about the flow of people. For example, the Negrito hunter-gatherers of China are very distinct from the majority Chinese population. However, they share many physical traits with the people of some Indonesian islands. This, along with linguistic information, can tell anthropologists not only where the Austronesian and Hanese racial groups moved, but when, and under what motivating force. This is not necessarily dividing into races, but it is a division based in large part on physical traits.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Wolfgang
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 09:51 AM

If you walked from Kerry to Capetown or Vladivostock (with the odd boat ride on the way, you'd see people changing all the way, but in a gradual kind of way. (McGrath)

Just for the fun of it, let's apply this type of argumentation to colours. Well, if you gradually 'walk' (you could do it with your computer) the colour scale from barely visible deep purple to barely visible dark red you'll see easily that there are no clear boundaries but only a gradual kind of change. So the concept of distinct colours has outlived its usefullness and we should give up using words describing different colours.

However, as for scientific application, I concur with McGrath. Same as in science words like 'red' and 'blue' are hardly used anymore (except in communication with nonscientists) since the knowledge about the underlying wavelengths was available, the concept of 'races' with its very crude and often varying definitions isn't usefull any longer since we know about differences describable in genetic terms.

And, BTW, an unbiased observer walking actually from Kerry to Capetown couldn't miss the fact that the gradient of change was much steeper for a few hundred miles of her walk, e.g. from the North of Tchad to the south of Tchad. Most of the whole change on the way would come within quite a small area south of Sahara.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 08:32 AM

I would assume that it has a useful scientific application

I would question that very much, and I think most modern anthropologists would as well. People vary, but not in great quantum leaps like that - they are artifacts created by vastly increased access from one part of the world to another, and by artificial mass movements of population, such as the slave trade and the American migration.

If you walked from Kerry to Capetown or Vladivostock (with the odd boat ride on the way, you'd see people changing all the way, but in a gradual kind of way.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Bugsy
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 02:27 AM

Indescriminate Shagging. That should fix it in about 5 generations. Plus it will bring us all a lot closer.


Cheers


Bugsy

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 10:34 PM

We are all basically social animals, ON A SMALL SCALE. Once you start looking at people you don't know, humans by nature start becoming xenophobic. Racism is the most convenient way to differentiate people, because a "black" looks different than a "white" or a "Hispanic." The concept of races, outside ethnography and anthropology, is just a fiction useful for making categories. If we eliminate the idea of races, we might start using nationalities again, or political ideologies. People will discriminate, and there isn't much that can be done about it.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 09:46 PM

Frankham-
No, but abolishing religion would get rid of Crusades and Jihads.

If racism disappeared, there'd still be prejudice against foreigners, or banjo players, or short people or whatever. People are always looking for someone else to blame.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Frankham
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 09:16 PM

Dick,

The only sure way to end racism is to abolish race. the same way that the only sure way to end crime is to make everything legal."

Funny :) Does this mean if we abolish religion, we can make people holy? :)

I think I go with McGrath on this one. Race is a concept created by anthropologists. Caucasion, Negroid, Mongoloid etc. and I would assume that it has a useful scientific application. "Racism" however is a different thing altogether.

"Racism" may have more to do with cultural bias than race itself.

One great healer is music. It can bring people together. (Unless it's some musicians on a gig fighting about what chords to use or who is keeping time. :)) One of the reasons I got into folk music to begin with is it's social healing power...by this I mean bringing people together from different cultures. Of course there is a tendency in some folks with certain musical interests to exclude others. Even so, in my experience when musicians from different cultures get together, or people who share songs from different places congregate, the walls generally come down. Music is pretty much something that everyone can understand to some degree regardless of where it comes from. Even when we make arbitrary names up for it such as "traditional" or "folk" or "commercial" or "pop" etc.

I think if we dig deep enough in all of us, there might be elements of "racism" that we haven't learned to come to terms with. They might even be on an unconscious level. But regardless, there's something about the power of music that transcends this in my humble opinion. It highlights the fact that we're all human and are basically social animals (otherwise we would have been extinct long ago.)

This is one of the reasons that I think folk music is so important.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Cluin
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 08:21 PM

But what if the "clannish behaviour" is an inherent part of their "culture"?

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: CraigS
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 07:54 PM

There is a way to abolish racism, which is to abolish all groups which practice clannish behaviour, right up to the nation level. It won't work - it leads to secret societies. Where is the healthy balance? It is not in Islam, because Islam is intended as a way of life, and includes a legal system intended for 1200 years ago. Who in his right mind would sanction cutting pieces off people and stoning them to death? The only people I can think of are the Son of a Bush and the mad Islamists! maybe that's why they can't see each other's point of view!

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 07:38 PM

" What difference does it make who started a thread or why?".....well, like Burke says.....

*shrug*...I have no objection to a serious discussion of racism, I just get tired of mindless repetition, like those holding up those signs at sporting events with a bible verse noted.

Must be the curmudgeon in me....

(I have several pet issues, myself....population control, for example...and traffic problems...and immigration policies.....shall I do a monthly 'leafleting' here? )

I try to bring up my issues in a context, not just gratuitous posting because I can.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 07:37 PM

Slavery, horrible as it always is, normally has little to do with "race". Slaves in Roman times, for example would have come in all colours, and so would slaveowners, and that would have been true in most societies where slavery has existed, or where it continues.

The peculiar feature of slavery as it was invented in the wake of the European seizure of America, and more especially in the territory of the United States, was that slavery became totally tied in with notions about colour and "race".

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Burke
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 07:05 PM

A monthly post, apparently.