In Memoriam - Karen Carpenter

Subject: In Memoriam - K.C.
From: Fiolar
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 08:12 AM

Today February 4th marks the 20th anniversary of the death of Karen Carpenter, who to my mind had one of the sweetest voices ever to grace this planet of ours. Every time I hear one of her numbers, I feel like crying at the terrible waste of such an artist to be cut down so soon. God Bless dear Karen. "It's Yesterday Once More."

Subject: RE: In Memoriam - K.C.
From: JudeL
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 08:35 AM

She had such talent and a family that loved her, it seems unreal that someone with so much to live for could be lost to anorexia nervosa. The media and society in general promotes such unrealistic expectations of body shape, even some medical "experts" are far too narrow in their definitions of what is "normal" and "acceptable". It all combines to rob many of their self-confidence or even, such as Karen, their health and their lives. It is society's shame and I mourn not just for Karen but all the others and also for all we lost because she did not have the time to explore and further develop the fullness of her talent.

Subject: RE: In Memoriam - Karen Carpenter
From: GUEST,joe clone
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 10:19 AM

Title changed to full name in order to avoid confusion with Mudcatter whose real name is KC.

joe clone

Subject: RE: In Memoriam - Karen Carpenter
From: alanabit
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 10:33 AM

I was not a great fan - I admired her excellent singing rather than enjoyed it. It was a terrible waste of a life to be lost to this form of mental illness.
Having said that, I would not want to go along with Jude's comment that society's attitude to body shapes was the culprit. In fact, far more lives have - and will be lost to obesity, heart disease and panchreal disorders due to the excessive consumption of sugar and fat. Watching my mother's life drip away three years ago (probably from panchris cancer - which is very dificult to detect) I would not wish such an end upon anyone.
I felt the sadness at the waste of Karen Carpenter's life as I would at any loss of life. As I would in any case, I would have helped her if I had been in a position to do so. But no, I am not to blame and on the whole society is innocent of this charge too.

Subject: RE: In Memoriam - Karen Carpenter
From: wysiwyg
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 10:55 AM

In the context of the times, I think body image is a fair culprit in Katren Carpenter's case, at least as one of the major factors which, when combined with others particular to her life, proved fatal. Anorexia was seldom discussed, and bulimia never, in that time. She was like a barometer for the times, in that respect. Without the information we have now about eating disorders, for sufferers as well as families, it's not right to hold them responsible for decisions when they could not know what they were seeing, experiencing, and causing.

~Susan

Subject: RE: In Memoriam - Karen Carpenter
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 11:14 AM

(quote)
"The media and society in general promotes such unrealistic expectations of body shape, even some medical "experts" are far too narrow in their definitions of what is "normal" and "acceptable".

Whoa. Obesity is on the rise as alanabit rightly calls attention to.
While I agree I was appalled at the Fashion industry's crossing the line in its promotion machinaery promoting the suggestively drug-induced appearance of the"emaciated waif" look ( not my term of art ) "no one" can argue against the "equally" legitimate
"look of health" that is the state of the over-worshipped women atheletes that made such cultural in-roads starting in the 70's.
Women gymnast and figureskating stars for openers. They "worked" to acheive the same body classification as "dancers" physiques from the "my body is my instrument" school of thought. This attention to "balanced" health has also paved the way for "accomplished" in everything from Martial Arts to Yoga.
So to say that the promotion of certain "body types" as "purely" a product of the ( marketplace ) media and society ( in particular the "women" whom continue to "support" all of the Celebrity tabloid trash along with the "beauty secrets"of Hollywood air-heads,their cosmetics ,and the cosmetic surgery industrial complex ) is clearly "not" telling the whole story by any measure.

(quote)
"It all combines to rob many of their self-confidence or even, such as Karen, their health and their lives. It is society's shame..."

I'm sorry , but Karen "chose" to be in that limelight, willingly made $millions$ from that same Media & Society, and to shame
all of society for its "continued" collective participation in the wanton "ignorance" of just what true health is , at this late date , just falls to me.

BTW: It was equally as sad to see the Olympic track star Florence Joyner ( Flo-Jo ) ,certainly "not" a walking ( or running ) stick figure by any measure ,to suddenly die of heart failure still in her 30's with the apparent 'abuse" of "steroids" as the cause.

Bottomline: Obesity is "never" a healthy body-type and hardly "unrealisitc" as something to be advised against.

Subject: RE: In Memoriam - Karen Carpenter
From: Peg
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 11:21 AM

Taliesn:

you just don't get it.

Anorexia has nothing whatsoever to do with obesity or health. And it has been proven that media images of women which portray impossible standards of beauty are the direct causes of young girls dieting and starving themselves to be thinner. This is true now of cultures where being fleshy is usually a sign of beauty (the Phillipines, Fiji and Malaysia are but three examples); but since the importation of American television females from these countries are dieting and trying to be thinner. Today, the percentage of teenage girls who are "on diets" is skyrocketing; these girls aren;t even finished growing yet. And it isn't the obese teenagers engaging in this behavior, either. Something wrong with this picture.

Subject: RE: In Memoriam - Karen Carpenter
From: Bagpuss
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 11:28 AM

I wouldn't say the media images are a direct cause of anorexia - but they certainly are a big influence - they are also an influence on obesity. They lead to an unhealthy obession with food and weight which can contribute to rates of obesity. They lead to an obsession with dieting, which often does more harm than good, and leave people with a low self worth which often contributes to their weight problems.

Subject: RE: In Memoriam - Karen Carpenter
From: Beccy
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 11:32 AM

Peg- While what you say is to a great extent true, there is another contributing factor to Anorexia Nervosa and Bulemia that no one here seems to have addressed.

When therapy with a patient who deals with an eating disorder is effective, a great portion of these patients will tell you that their disorder only started as an attempt to lose weight. It became an obsessive compulsive driven attempt to control something. Most patients have an overwhelming feeling of not being in control of anything in their lives and weight control is an easy, satisfying way of controlling something. What is more, once they saw that that one vestige of control they had produced visible results, they continued with the problem even more aggressively.

Most of the women (let's face it, it's mostly women who deal with this) who have anorexia or bulemia realize they are thin, but do not realize quite HOW thin they are. That's where the perception problem and our societal obsession with reed thin/emaciated models comes in. If you look at yourself in the mirror, and you see a thin person, then you turn on the t.v. and see, oh, Calista Flockheart being touted as a paragon of beauty- you don't see a problem with your thinness. You probably figure you can control your weight down a little more, get the pleasure from the sense of control you have, without risking anything.

My two cents... From someone who knows!

Subject: RE: In Memoriam - Karen Carpenter
From: Amos
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 11:46 AM

The cases I have known who got sucked up in the bulimia loop were in each case deeply concerned about the problem of control in the face of extremely authoritarian, arbitrary, or otherwise obsessive parents, and as Beccy says, the body control was a retreat to a place where at least something was theirs to manage. I think variations on this theme can be found behind most obsessive developments such as anorexia/bulimia -- something prior to the condition throws the ordinary balance of the human perspective out of whack, usually something in the form of human oppressive treatment, extreme stress, trauma or loss. FWIW.

A

Subject: RE: In Memoriam - Karen Carpenter
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 11:49 AM

Fiolar,

You said it all in a nutshell.

Subject: RE: In Memoriam - Karen Carpenter
From: saulgoldie
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 12:42 PM

From what I have heard and read, it seems very much like anorexia and obesity are at least in large part (or totally?) a response to childhood abuse by trusted adults. One more case as to why improved mental health care should be made available for everyone--the abusers and their victims as well.

BTW (on the off-color side), If Karen Carpenter had eaten the same ham sandwich that Mama Cass choked on...

Subject: RE: In Memoriam - Karen Carpenter
From: Beccy
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 01:01 PM

Saulgoldie- not sure where you read that, but it's pretty inaccurate. Most anorexics or bulemics are definitely Type A personalities. Most cases have nothing to do with childhood abuse, but rather are a reaction to current environmental stimuli/stress, etc... I'm sure there are cases such as those you described, but it's far from being a root cause or even a common denominator in most cases.

Many patients describe their genesis into the disorder as being the death of a parent/friend/family member, too many demands placed on them with no knowledge of how to say "no" to people, rejection by a romantic partner, oversensitivity, being ignored, and/or a combination of those things.

Subject: RE: In Memoriam - Karen Carpenter
From: Peter T.
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 02:21 PM

Anybody know if she could drum at all? (I know nothing about drumming)yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: In Memoriam - Karen Carpenter
From: banjomad (inactive)
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 03:23 PM

Ah but what a voice.
Dave

Subject: RE: In Memoriam - Karen Carpenter
From: Deda
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 03:33 PM

I agree, I loved her voice. Still do, it positively leaps out at me -- her voice had a quality that I haven't heard from anyone else, except maybe in moments from Emmy Lou. She didn't think of herself as a singer who played the drums, but as a drummer who also sang. And I think I read that she was from a family in which she struggled to find any sense of freedom. ("Dysfunctional family" -- what does that mean anymore?) But she also spent years on the circuit of fame and riches, which has extreme stresses of its own.

In any case, she died much too young. Requiescat in pace.

Subject: RE: In Memoriam - Karen Carpenter
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 03:50 PM

Oh m'dear Peg....;-)


(quote)
"Taliesn:
you just don't get it. "

Well , perhaps in your "world according to Peg", but I will try to re-educate you on the points you chose to posit as proof that somehow you do "get it"

(quote)
"Anorexia has nothing whatsoever to do with obesity or health."

Well you fail to make this presumption stand since the root cause of all 3 even "you" chose to site was "Media influence"; as in your very next sentence..
(quote)
"And it has been proven that media images of women which portray impossible standards of beauty are the direct causes of young girls ..." and so on .
Thus anorexia,obesity , and any number of media-cultural induced self-destructive behavior
( smoking & drug-taking made fashionable & cool ) ,or any health awareness ,or abyssmal lack thereof, have "everything" to do with one another within the context of this thread ;namely the parts played by "Media & society" reinforcement. Media marketing constantly reinforces conflicting messages to
over-indulge in whatever is being sold.
Sounds like a little ginko-stimulated "reading comprehension' wouldn't hurt for someone who apparently suggests that they "get it".

(quote)
" This is true now of cultures where being fleshy is usually a sign of beauty (the Phillipines, Fiji and Malaysia are but three examples)"

Well perhaps the work of even Margaret Mead could back me on this one, but the reason for the more corpulent look being another culturally renforced "perception of beauty" is becuase to be "fleshy" means that you come from some measure of wealth becuase you cna afford regular , even sumptuous, meals; thus a sign of social "status" on the foodchain.
Obversely skinny means impoverished. It's as basic as that throughout   Eurasian culture.
However the role of the "skilled & practiced" warrior or athelete ( indigenous peoples as the American Indian fr'instance ) as the alternative symbol of "health" is as time honored as far back and across as many latitudes & longitudes as you care to address.

(quote)
"but since the importation of American television females..."

Oh that would be the late-60's post-Twiggy phase wouldn't it ; the androgenous British import when London fashion was all gear and Fab and taking American youth media market by storm. Remember the Shrimpton's , the Penelope Tree's , the Anita Pallenbergs followed by the David Bowie's & Jagger/Richard's androgony parade?
American models "were" fleshy until these wastrels started rolling their bones onto Madison Ave.

(quote)
"Today, the percentage of teenage girls who are "on diets" is skyrocketing..."

First off all let us not forget the original point that Karen Carpenter was an adult near 40 ,if not over, when her pychological pathology wasted her life the way Elvis, the blimp's, drugging, whoring ,and eating disorder wasted his.
2nd it "was" skyrocketing during the "emaciated waif" period of cocaine chic-become-heroine chic. The more alarming statistic is the rise of what's still the most common 'dieting' method of choice among teens: smoking cigarettes to kill the appetite. ( DAMN that demon tobacco! )

Meanwhile, looking at the , to my mind, equally brainstem appealing roll-models of the "crotch-grinding " dancing women-objects of RAP videos a reasonably aware person can't help but observe that they are definitely "not" emaciated. Buxom bums and thunder thighs are what's so gratuitously paraded as "desireable".
For that matter the thoroughly mindless images of Britany Spears & Christine Aguillera are hardly emaciated either. Britanny went for the Bob Fosse flash-dancer look while Christine is obviously for the more "corpulent'" ghetto slut look.
All the while the reigning queen ,Jennifer Lopez , defintely made the more "full-bodied" look a high-powered fashion image and she outsells both these MTV brats combined musically. Forget her line of clothes,cosmetics, and fragrances.

Gee, for someone who implies that they "get it" you appear to not grasp the entire picture of the contemporary media culture. But then , why should you. You apparently already "get it".

Coming from the Madison Ave profession I know more than a little about Media & Society and how each affects the other in "marketing". I am in no way condoning or sanctioning the image marketing machinery and take a back seat to no one in taking it to task for all of the body/mind/spirit "unhealthiness" it promotes for a profit, but I also can 'not' sanction this temptation to promote that it's alright to then swing to the other extreme that panders to lazy frumpiness as if "that's" a more balanced model of health. ( " Go on, you "can" still eat crap at MacDonald's. It's what regular folks do". )

Bottomline: The "body is my temple, is my instrument" is the truest model for body/mind/spirit health to aspire to as any artist could understand and appreciate if not always embrace.
When "that" standard finally catches on all then all of the covers of all of the "Cosmopolitan" and "The Inquirer"women & men can not put Humpty together again.
Now "that'" would be a sign of health.

Subject: RE: In Memoriam - Karen Carpenter
From: Peg
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 10:16 PM

Amos and Beccy, good point, this is a psychological disorder above all. I should have clarified that the roots of eating disorders can be very much affected by seeing such imagery...and research done in third world countries has upheld the idea that girls are influenced by contemporary American images.

BTW, Mama Cass did not die from choking on a sandwich: urban/folk legend.

Taleisn: huh?
Sorry but I did not even understand half of what you seem to be trying to say. You DO know that I am a professor who teaches media and film studies, yes? I could type out my thoughts in lecture form but it would take a lot of time...

What I think you don't "get" is that blaming an individual for her own illness (these behaviors are the result of a psychological disorder) when society sanctions and to some extent causes that illness shows a distinctive lack of compassion and understanding.

Your comments about any and all "media-culturalinduced self-destructive behavior" as having everything to do with each other in the context of this thread does not really make sense.

One does not smoke cigarettes, drink alcohol, or take drugs to live: one must eat to live. The psychological deterioration necessary for a human being to starve herself to death voluntarily and willfully is a far sight more drastic than the damage induced when one voluntarily, willfully ingests or smokes poison.

Subject: RE: In Memoriam - Karen Carpenter
From: GUEST,Jim Clark..London.England
Date: 05 Feb 03 - 01:40 AM

I too love the sound of Karen Carpenter,and think she was realy unique...such a clear exquisite vocal delivery...and such wonderful songs....when you've heard her singing you can just never forget it....From the documentaries i've seen of her life...it rather struck me that the one thing missing in her life was love...she needed a totaly unselfish man in her life who cared for her enough to be there for her whenever she needed intimate emotional support...It seems such a tragedy that this beautiful woman wasnt able to find such a person in time to save her life,but the roller coaster life of a succesful high earning performer qiute obviously must make finding such sincere love even harder than for us ordinary mortals....

Subject: RE: In Memoriam - Karen Carpenter
From: alanabit
Date: 05 Feb 03 - 03:21 AM

A good point Jim. It seems that some gifted or prominent people have exceptional needs as welll as exceptional talents. Was not the cellist Jacqueline du Pre´a similar case? At the end of the day, as I stated earlier, I think the problem lay more with the woman's personal make up and circumstances. Of course society has some influence. I don't think anyone is disputing that. The debate will always be about just how much this is to blame.
To some extent my own contempt for fashion makes it extremely hard to acept that people can allow themselves to be so influenced by it. There is evidence to contradict that. I have always sees fashion as the most expensive form of ugliness which is currently being sold. I guess this is not true for everyone!

Subject: RE: In Memoriam - Karen Carpenter
From: Cappuccino
Date: 05 Feb 03 - 05:36 AM

With regard to 'a totally unselfish man...'   I have always wondered whether Karen Carpenter suffered from being the junior member in the act, under the rule of a dominant brother.

Or is this unkind?

-IanB

Subject: RE: In Memoriam - Karen Carpenter
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 05 Feb 03 - 05:47 AM

(quote)
"I have always wondered whether Karen Carpenter suffered from being the junior member in the act, under the rule of a dominant brother."

You're joking, right ?
I mean this is now pure celebrity tabloid navel-gazing at this point. It's been 20 years for crying out loud.
We're in the 21st century now.
She was a pop-singer / song writer and those who enjoy it still have her music that lives on.
I'm sorry , but I just can't share in all this tabloid ruminating on the personal problems some celebrity dead 20 years ago.
The music made is what matters without which you wouldn't have had any reason to want to continually look into Carpenter's private wolrd 20 years after her passing.
Let the music live and let the dead rest.

Subject: RE: In Memoriam - Karen Carpenter
From: GUEST,Jim Clark..London.England
Date: 05 Feb 03 - 01:52 PM

I dont think all or possibly many cases of anorexia are neccessarily driven by media images of slim young models...anorexia also affects men..I have always been on the portly side simply because of my love of food...in my mid twenties I fell in love with a girl who was very slim and I quickly lost weight myself....I seemed to have had a desire to want to be like her..though alas, my love was not returned..I went from being a big eater to a somebody who watched and counted every calorie I eat....I looked pretty good being thinner although many who knew me thought I must have contracted some terrible wasting desease..I went from being a podgy person that enjoyed eating to one that almost enjoyed feeling hungry...it makes you feel light headed..exhilerated even punchy...Now I certainly wasnt influenced by the modeling industry..my deire to be slim was to be like somebody I thought I was in love with, and had much more to do with issues of my own self esteem.....Anyway when the spell passed and I moved onto to somebody who realy was worth my affection I gradualy got back to my more normal (for me) big eating ways...These days i'm podgy again,but i'm happy...I dont worry about my body shape..i'm fat and i'm content..I suppose partly through the feeling that I have somebody in my life who cares a jot about me....I wonder if Karen Carpenter's anorexia was perpetuated by similar lonely feelings of self loathing...luckily for me i'm not an international superstar with millions in the bank and leeches waiting to latch onto me for my money on every corner...surely for somebody in need of simple unconditional love possibly like Karen Carpenter needed,their high position in life can bring almost insurmountable problems

Subject: RE: In Memoriam - Karen Carpenter
From: Naemanson
Date: 05 Feb 03 - 01:59 PM

I remember listening to The Caprenters when I was in the Navy. I particularly remember one warm night at the Philadelphia Naval Shipyard lying in the grass in the middle of the drill field with my portable cassette player (remember the big ones?). I watched the stars and listened to Karen and wished I was anywhere but Philadelphia.