Tech: Lets Talk Sound

Subject: Tech: Lets Talk Sound
From: GUEST,lloyd64
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 12:06 PM

1. What is the difference between "volume" and "Gain"?
2. I have a very good recorder, but it does have the ablity to add a reverb to the recording, any suggestion as to how this could be done. I would like to add a little "Richness" to the recording. At this time I am running the recorder off my sound system to add a touch of reverb, but that does not work to well when "field recording".

Subject: RE: Tech: Lets Talk Sound
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 12:30 PM

Volume and Gain

Subject: RE: Tech: Lets Talk Sound
From: Amos
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 12:50 PM

Reverb is easily post-processed using computerized sound editing SW.

A

Subject: RE: Tech: Lets Talk Sound
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 12:56 PM

Volume is loudness. In an amp it usually controls the output level to the speakers. It is one kind of gain.
Gain is the amplification factor of an electronic device and is usually measured in decibels. (db) Gain is the opposite of attenuation (loss) in a circuit. Most electronic devices have several different stages of gain and loss. An equalizer, for example , is a circuit that intentionally introduces loss to selected frequencies. If it is an active ( amplified equalizer) it will have gain to overcome this loss . The end result may be the volume staying the same but the frequency response being changed. Gain may or may not be controlled by a manual knob. Gain may also be at frequencies far above, and sometimes below the audio range.

Subject: RE: Tech: Lets Talk Sound
From: Jim Colbert
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 01:06 PM

Great little link, Lloyd! I kinda knew the difference, but not well enough to explain it so succinctly.

jpc

Subject: RE: Tech: Lets Talk Sound
From: NicoleC
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 01:33 PM

Llyod, I strongly suggest recording clean, then adding reverb later if you desire. Once it's recorded you can't take it away, but if you have a clean recording you can add varying amounts or change the kind of reverb to your heart's content.

Subject: RE: Tech: Lets Talk Sound
From: GUEST,lloyd64
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 09:47 PM

How do I add reverb to a clean recording? What type of device do I use to accomplish this? Maybe if I play it back thru my amp then record the output that would work. I'll try that.

Thanks for the Gain link. It was a great help.

Subject: RE: Tech: Lets Talk Sound
From: NicoleC
Date: 21 Feb 03 - 12:23 PM

Generally, you have a recrding and then an external reverb device. It might be physical, or it could be a software unit if you are editting and mixing on a computer.

For example, dump the recording into your digital editor.
Save a clean copy.
Experiment with different effects on another copy and save the mixes.
When complete, burn to your final product, like a CD.

It'd help, Lloyd, if you tell us what equipment you are using?

Subject: RE: Tech: Lets Talk Sound
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Feb 03 - 11:00 PM

I have a Moranz(?) recorder and a Techtronic Mike. the result is a very clean recording. I use to record old timers here in the North Carolina Mountains. I am trying to preserve the old montain music and stories. Most of the folks I record will not be with us very much longer. As a reult of this project I have written Musical about the mountain folks. It is call "This Mountain is my home", but that is for another link.

Thanks to all for your help.

Subject: RE: Tech: Lets Talk Sound
From: Cluin
Date: 21 Feb 03 - 11:19 PM

Yes, thanks for the link. I always thought gain was simply a post-EQ & Effects volume control while the volume controlled the amplitude of the signal pre-EQ. That clarifies things.

Subject: RE: Tech: Lets Talk Sound
From: NicoleC
Date: 21 Feb 03 - 11:56 PM

Marantz makes all kinds of recorders. CD-R, Cassette, Mini-disc, hard disk recorders (aka solid state), and DATs. Do you know which kind of media or recorder you use?

I'm glad to know folks are still recording the old-timers. All the more reason to record as cleanly as possible so you get an accurate record of what they sound like. Make 'em sound good later. Preservation of those recordings is a whole other huge issue!

Is this a hobby or hopeful profession? I wonder if Folkways would be interested in mastering and publishing your recordings?

Subject: RE: Tech: Lets Talk Sound
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 07:57 AM

More technical information;

I use a Marantz PMD101 field recorder and an Audio-technica 800 Series Microphone. The sound is great, but as stated earlier, I would like a richer sound. This recording thing started when visiting mountain churches to play Bluegrass. Each church has an old Timer who sings the old mountain songs. Because I'm retired, I also play in Nursing homes and found many who should be recorded. The mountains of North Carolina are rich with local flavored music. Some times they sing the same songs with little different words, reflecting the local history.

This project has grown into a passion. I find myself sitting, long hours, with old folks just recording the stories and songs.   Next week I'm driving 75 miles to visit with an old Timer who is in his last days. He has worked and hunted in the mountains near franklin NC his entire life, he has great stories about logging the mountains.

One visit, which was not recorded, was with Ruffis Jackson. A third generation, Pine Tar still operator. He boils down Pine Tar in a Still to make, Turpentine, a gum used in blasting power, and "Rosen for the Bow". I wrote a song about him which is featured in a Mountain Musical I wrote, which is schedule to be released this summer.

Well that enough about that, Thanks you for your interest.


Lloyd64 of North Carolina USA

Subject: RE: Tech: Lets Talk Sound
From: Willie-O
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 09:26 AM

OK, I looked up the Marantz PMD101. It's a professional-grade, MONO portable cassette recorder, the kind radio journalists would have been using until a few years ago--and some probably still are. Now available for about $225 U.S. It has dual speeds and pitch control, and it doesn't appear to have any Dolby noise control.

Really, Lloyd, don't worry about reverb. To do the important work you're doing, with this machine, here's a few tips to get the cleanest sound.

Always use the faster tape speed, don't try to save tape by using the half-speed option.

Keep using the external mike, don't use the built-in mike on a cassette machine (motor noise).

A lot of the folks you're working with won't be used to microphones, but get the mike as close to them as is feasible/comfortable. If the mike is far away, you get more of that background noise.   

Ultimately though, you're ending up with monaural cassette masters, which aren't really a good format for masters any more. That machine is really good for learning music with due to the double speed and cue and review features, but for recording music that will be copied and listened to, and is of historical significance, you should maybe look into mini-disc recorders. A stereo mini-disc recorder is about the size of a Walkman and will give you a great quality digital recording.   Stereo will also give you a richer sound.

Nicole is talking about transferring your tapes to your computer, and editing them as sound files on the computer using various types of software. That's a good suggestion, but it sounds to me that your time is best spent following your passiona and local knowledge, doing the actual field recordings.

What you should perhaps be doing with your cassettes is: find a recording engineer in your area who works with acoustic music, take some of your tapes, and ask them to edit them to enhance the signal quality, and burn them on CD. When you have some on CD you will get an idea if the sound quality is acceptable. (Compare the sound with a recent release of a folk-music recording).   I think mini-disc might be the way to go.

Good luck, keep doing this very important work.

Willie-O

Subject: RE: Tech: Lets Talk Sound
From: lloyd61
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 09:48 AM

Thanks for the tips. I have a local recording studio which I'm sure will be able to take the tapes and enhance them, that was a great idea.

What would a "Good" CD recorder cost me?, and what could get for this Marantz?

Lloyd61 (who is now 64 years old. Time files when you are having fun. I'll try and change my cookie.)

Subject: RE: Tech: Lets Talk Sound
From: NicoleC
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 12:51 PM

Ditto to everything Willie-O said.

I just bought a Sony mini-disc recorder for $200. The machine sounds amazing, but it isn't perfect. The buttons are small and difficult to use quickly, and you can't adjust recording lev els on the fly. I don't like that it doesn't have a digital output, although it has a digital input. And you need to buy a separate mic -- I bought a cheapie for $30 but it leaves much to be desired. A nicer mic would make the unit sound much better.

For heavy use on field recordings and to avoid the challenges I face, I'd suggest a high-end Sharp (MT 770 or 880) for $300-350. You can use your existing mic, but you'll need adapters and a pre-amp (to use the line input instead of the mic input), so you might as well buy a small condensor mic instead. like a Sound Pros T mic ($80?)

Marantz makes a portable pro CD-R recorder (CDR300) for $775-ish. It has an internal mic or can use an external mic including the one you have now. If you can swing the cash, that'd probably be the best and easiest solution for you, and the CDs will play in any computer hot off the machine.

Subject: RE: Tech: Lets Talk Sound
From: lloyd64
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 03:09 PM

I think you are right a CD recorder would be best.

Thanks.

lloyd64

Subject: RE: Tech: Lets Talk Sound
From: Willie-O
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 10:21 AM

Whatever you can get that will make the job easier, and get you digital field recordings, is the right choice.

W-O