BS: Mark Twain on War

Subject: BS: Mark Twain on War
From: michaelr
Date: 04 Mar 03 - 08:59 PM

A friend just e-mailed me this. Although this was written nearly a century ago, it still rings frighteningly true now...

The Loud Little Handful (Mark Twain)

The loud little handful - as usual - will shout for the war. The pulpit will - warily and cautiously - object... at first. The great, big, dull bulk of the nation will rub its sleepy eyes and try to make out why there should be a war, and will say, earnestly and indignantly, "It is unjust and dishonorable, and there is no necessity for it."

Then the handful will shout louder. A few fair men on the other side will argue and reason against the war with speech and pen, and at first will have a hearing and be applauded, but it will not last long; those others will outshout them, and presently the antiwar audiences will thin out and lose popularity.

Before long, you will see this curious thing: the speakers stoned from the platform, and free speech strangled by hordes of furious men...

Next the statesmen will invent cheap lies, putting the blame upon the nation that is attacked, and every man will be glad of those conscience-soothing falsities, and will diligently study them, and refuse to examine any refutations of them; and thus he will by and by convince himself that the war is just, and will thank God for the better sleep he enjoys after this process of grotesque self-deception.


Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Mark Twain on War
From: Amos
Date: 04 Mar 03 - 09:26 PM

Holy Moly!! That's an almost one hundred per cent accurate prediction from the other side of the grave!! Like, wow.

Seriously, ya gotta respect the old cynic for his precise acquaintance with the dull edge of human nature!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Mark Twain on War
From: *daylia*
Date: 04 Mar 03 - 10:27 PM

Hmmm - maybe the old cynic was William Shakespeare in a future incarnation?

Thanks for posting this Michael. Did you see Mark Twain's War Prayer yet? I posted it on another thread a while back. The final couple paragraphs really hit home too.   :(

Subject: RE: BS: Mark Twain on War
From: michaelr
Date: 04 Mar 03 - 11:12 PM

Whoa Nelly! Daylia, dat's a doozy. Do you or Amos know what war Twain was writing about? Spanish-American? WWI?

Twain doesn't strike me as a cynic, though; more as a disappointed idealist (not always the same thing). Ambrose Bierce, now there's a cynic...

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Mark Twain on War
From: *daylia*
Date: 04 Mar 03 - 11:42 PM

Michael, according to this link he wrote it in March 1905, outraged by plans for American military intervention in the Phillipines.

Hundred years later, still no-one's listening ... or maybe it's just those who have the gold and make the rules who are permanently deaf ...

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Mark Twain on War
From: GUEST,Astorsen
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 09:31 AM

A fantastic quote from a immense man. THanks for having posted this text.

Even though from the eastern side of the big pond and of the channel, I am a great admirer of Mark Twain's work.

Salut,

JLuc

Subject: RE: BS: Mark Twain on War
From: Amos
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 09:56 AM

I think the war effort he was protesting, the invasion of the Phillipines, was the last time this great country of ours launched a premeditated and gratuitous attack against a foreign nation uninvited.
Maybe they had weapons of mass destruction, like groves of bamboo or something...


A

Subject: RE: BS: Mark Twain on War
From: GUEST,Casual Observer
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 11:44 AM

Those who think war never solves anything, should think again. Granted, it doesn't always render the solution everyone wants. But don't any of you remember a little thing called the American Revolution? That solved the question of America's independence. The War of 1812? That solved it a second time and got rid of the British once and for all. And the Civil War? That solved the question of Black America's independence.

And World War II? If I'm not mistaken, it ended the reign of an evil little man.

Would a war with Iraq solve anything? I don't honestly know. I'm still cogitating on that one.

Subject: RE: BS: Mark Twain on War
From: *daylia*
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 12:23 PM

Casual Observer, seems you've made a very valid point. Sometimes there is indeed good reason to make war.

"For everything there is a season, and a time for every purpose under Heaven."

It's hard for a peacelover like myself to say that! But I do - because it's true.

I was thinking yesterday about hatred and love. Seems that everytime I hit a deeper level of being angry with or 'hating' another, I have to work harder to find reasons to forgive that person and let it go (unless I like wallowing in negative destructiveness, which I don't). And every time I discover those reasons, and work to realize them within myself and in my life, I develop deeper levels of love, compassion and tolerance.

If I never hated anyone, could I grow in my ability to love? There wouldn't be any reason to! It's like I have to dive into ever deepening depths of 'darkness' so that I can bring up more 'light'. It's probably the same with war and peace too, unfortunately. The more horrible the wars, the more wonderful and lasting is the peace that follows or something?

Hmmm - not sure if history backs that up though ...

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Mark Twain on War
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 01:05 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Mark Twain on War
From: GUEST,Casual Observer
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 01:09 PM

oops, that was me just then - hit the wrong button - sorry

Sometimes there is, sometimes there isn't. The Bible chapter from which you just quoted does indeed say, very clearly, there is a time for war and a time for peace. The world is a series of pairs and opposites, and one cannot exist without the other. There cannot be joy without suffering.

I don't believe that anyone, except for perhaps a very tiny, very loud handful, ever WANTS war, ever WANTS conflict. But sometimes the conflict is inevitable. Sometimes the conflict can be used for the common good. Sometimes people have to give their very lives for this.

Is Iraq a threat to the United States? Maybe, maybe not. Is Iraq a threat to the Middle East? Probably. Is Saddam Hussein a threat to the people of Iraq? Most definitely.

Subject: RE: BS: Mark Twain on War
From: Amos
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 01:38 PM

The apparent dichotomistic nature of the universe is one the key components of the average illusion of things, but is not an inherent truth. It gets brought into play by mechanisms of resistance and fields generated by decisions not to know. The wide-spread popularity of these illusions is what gives rise to stellar failed philosphies like dialectical materialism, and is also the trick behind the doublethink of big-brother ("War is the Way to Peace") thinking.

You don't need to have a bout of hatred in order to expand the horizons of your deep tolerance. But it does look that way from within the machinery. It's just not very robust machinery.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Mark Twain on War
From: gnu
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 06:48 PM

CO said "The War of 1812? That solved it a second time and got rid of the British "

Another uneducated ? Better read up on some history bucky boy. The "British" (not) kicked as in that one. And they don't hold a grudge, as apparently, you do.

Subject: RE: BS: Mark Twain on War
From: GUEST,Casual Observer
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 06:59 PM

Andy Jackson defeated the British in New Orleans on January 8, 1815. Their army never attacked the US again after that. And no, I don't hold a grudge.

Subject: RE: BS: Mark Twain on War
From: gnu
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 07:12 PM

Well, in the war of 1812, we kicked your ass, burnt your White House, and, generally, sent you packing. Ever hear of General Brock ? As for what you did with the British in 1815, who cares ? Oh, gosh ! Did I not mention that you were fighting the Canucks in the war of 1812 ? Perhaps that's your lapse of history ? Oh. By the way, would you like to buy your Presidential Tea Service back ? We were thinking of taking out of our museum of natural history and selling it on e-bay. Again... Better read up on some history bucky boy.

Subject: RE: BS: Mark Twain on War
From: Amos
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 07:38 PM

Gnu:

I'm sorry to say that the War of 1812 was not won by the British, although it is true they did some fine ass-kicking for a while there. But overall I'd say it was a draw -- can you say "Champlain"? Sure you can. Erie? Gooood! How about "Fort George"?

The Treaty of Ghent, if memory serves, was a negotiated peace treaty, not a surrender by either side. It restored holdings to the ante-war status on both sides.

It was actually signed two weeks before the Battle of N'Orleans.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Mark Twain on War
From: GUEST,Casual Observer
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 07:47 PM

Maybe so, Gnu, but it is generally recognized that the Americans WON the War of 1812. This is why we have dollars in our pockets, instead of pounds, and drive on the right-hand side of the road, and spell color without the letter u. And we practice instead of practise.

War of 1812

Now then. I believe this thread was about Mark Twain's comments, and the necessity (or not) of war.

Subject: RE: BS: Mark Twain on War
From: gnu
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 08:05 PM

Point well taken. Especially if you believe it was a real war rather than an attempted invasion of Canada. Anyway, no doubt you defended your ground, as we did ours. As for winning, I agree with you that noone did, really. As for the future, ours is yours and yours is ours. We are linked by our common heritage, as distasteful or as encouraging as that may be at times. We stand on guard for thee, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Mark Twain on War
From: Amos
Date: 06 Mar 03 - 01:21 AM

ANd, even when we have a mad cowboy running loose in Washington, we appreciate the brotherhood. SO there you go!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Mark Twain on War
From: GUEST,Casual Observer
Date: 06 Mar 03 - 09:53 AM

Fair enough, Gnu. Peace. :-) I do wish we had kept the tradition of tea time, though. I enjoyed afternoon tea very much when I was across the pond. (I guess there's nothing stopping me from having my own.)

Speaking of Mark Twain, Ken Burns' documentary is worth the watching. It's aired on PBS already a couple of times, and is probably available for the renting just about anywhere. During his lifetime, Twain saw a lot of technological advancements, and earned and lost a few fortunes. He had a chance to invest in the telephone and didn't, because he couldn't imagine that it would be an everyday gadget.

Subject: RE: BS: Mark Twain on War
From: *daylia*
Date: 06 Mar 03 - 11:22 AM

CO, you said "... it is generally recognized that the Americans WON the War of 1812."

Yet the very first paragraph of the article you linked us to states "The offensive actions of the United States failed in every attempt to capture Canada. On the other hand, the British army was successfully stopped when it attempted to capture Baltimore and New Orleans."

Sounds like a pretty ambiguous victory to me!

Gnu, thank you for pointing out that the Canadians (who weren't really to be 'Canadians' for another 55 years) successfully ousted the Americans back then. If they hadn't, there wouldn't be a Canada today. I was going to set CO straight too, but got sidetracked in the philosophy of it all. The US never attempted another military invasion of the Great White North after that war, and we have remained 'the true North strong and free'. Well, kinda.

Not sure that victory had much to do with the British here though. Without the help of the Six Nations, we'd probably have been slaughtered like sheep. Maybe that's why the Americans won the Battle of New Orleans - the Six Nations were quite content to stay home! So let's give credit where credit is due.

Does it matter much though, considering that although Canada was not defeated militarily we have certainly been thoroughly 'Americanized' culturally and economically? Kinda like been sat on by an elephant who isn't even aware we exist and couldn't care less anyway.

Most of the world considers Canada the 51st state. The US says "Jump!" and we say "How high?" So what did we 'win'? The right to live in country where every violent jerk isn't allowed to tote a gun, where you can't be put to death for breaking the law, where you can see a doctor without going broke, where you get to waste a lot of time finding the English directions for heating a TV dinner buried among the French etc.

Well, I guess that's something.

And CO, although WWII did oust an 'evil little man', it also resulted in the production of the atom bomb, the slaughters of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and the continuing threat of global nuclear annihilation.
Wow, that's really booty to boast about - NOT! Why do you mention only the questionable, so-called 'benefits' of war and ignore the overwhelming losses?

As Mark Twain says in "The War Prayer",

"If you beseech a blessing upon yourself, beware! lest without intent you invoke a curse upon a neighbour at the same time ...
ignorantly and unthinkingly. When you have prayed for victory, you have prayed for many unmentioned results which follow victory."

The seemingly endless wars inflicted by the US upon it's neighbours near and far are nothing but a curse for everything and everyone living in the rest of the world. And for the American people themselves. We really need to grow out of primitive lust, avarice and barbarism if we are to survive as a species at this point.

It's now or never, IMO.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Mark Twain on War
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 06 Mar 03 - 11:54 AM

On the site that GUEST,Casual Observer gives War of 1812 it states that Hull invades Canada. Was the invasion led by John9 mounted on Punch the Horse ?

Subject: RE: BS: Mark Twain on War
From: Kim C
Date: 06 Mar 03 - 01:33 PM

Well, just speaking for myself, even if the War of 1812 was technically a "draw," so to speak... the British left us in possession of the field, and we got to keep New Orleans, so in a way, we did win. We got to keep what we won in the Revolution, and the British didn't invade US shores again, till the Beatles came along. ;-)