BS: Justice Discovered In the Universe !

Subject: BS: Justice Discovered In the Universe !
From: Amos
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 07:31 PM

For those of you who have always wondered about the injustices so manifest in human affairs, take comfort. New scientific evidence has arisen which demonstrates that fairness does make a difference!

---

Detrimental effects of sanctions on human altruism




ERNST FEHR* AND BETTINA ROCKENBACH?



* University of Zürich, Institute for Empirical Research in Economics, Blümlisalpstrasse 10, CH-8006 Zürich, Switzerland
? University of Erfurt, Nordhäuser Strae 63, D-99089 Erfurt, Germany



The existence of cooperation and social order among genetically unrelated individuals is a fundamental problem in the behavioural sciences. The prevailing approaches in biology and economics view cooperation exclusively as self-interested behaviour--unrelated individuals cooperate only if they face economic rewards or sanctions rendering cooperation a self-interested choice. Whether economic incentives are perceived as just or legitimate does not matter in these theories. Fairness-based altruism is, however, a powerful source of human cooperation. Here we show experimentally that the prevailing self-interest approach has serious shortcomings because it overlooks negative effects of sanctions on human altruism. Sanctions revealing selfish or greedy intentions destroy altruistic cooperation almost completely, whereas sanctions perceived as fair leave altruism intact. These findings challenge proximate and ultimate theories of human cooperation that neglect the distinction between fair and unfair sanctions, and they are probably relevant in all domains in which voluntary compliance matters--in relations between spouses, in the education of children, in business relations and organizations as well as in markets.

(From Nature journal of 13 March 2003.)

---

There! Doncha feel better?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Justice Discovered In the Universe !
From: *daylia*
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 07:40 PM

Uhh ... ummm ... I think I'm gettin a headache ...

Subject: RE: BS: Justice Discovered In the Universe !
From: michaelr
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 08:38 PM

Amos, why don't you tell us what this means to you, and why you see it as proof that there is justice in the universe?

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Justice Discovered In the Universe !
From: Amos
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 08:57 PM

Well, the summary makes it clear that the traditional model of human interactions -- that they are driven by personal self-interest -- is actually inaccurate in an important respect.

What this paper asserts is that people stop altruistic cooperation to the degree they perceive unfairness in the sanctions of the justice process, or the rules of play. The authors extrapolate that this princiople works in all domains of human relationship -- people are less willing to play if they perceive injustice in the rules.

This is a significant piece of work because it lends some scientific credibility to the concept that there is an inherent sense of justice in human makeup.

Well, I see it as significant anyway! :>) Sorry I don't have access to the whole article, or I would be able to be more precise. Please ask Wolfgang not to beat on me! :>)

A

Ashes to ashes, and dust to dust
God may be Big, but Man is Just!

Alexander Amos Pope

Subject: RE: BS: Justice Discovered In the Universe !
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 09:16 PM

That sounds worth reading.

Here's an earlier work which has the same essential conclusion - Mutual Aid", by the anarchist thinker Piotr Kropotkin, one hundred years ago this year..

Subject: RE: BS: Justice Discovered In the Universe !
From: *daylia*
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 09:18 PM

"... God may be Big, but Man is Just!"

Hmmm, are you
Sure about that Amos?

Justicia is watching you ...

;)    daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Justice Discovered In the Universe !
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 10:46 PM

I got it Amos! I've been barkin up that tree alot through the years, and I keep getting chased away by darwinist competition junkies... But I inevitably keep trotting right back. Statements like "United We Stand" take on a whole new (vibrantly powerful) meaning!

While the "incentive" of big bucks may inspire some inovation, I am instinctively certain that a great deal of 'appropriate technology' comes from good company, good food, and some spare time puttering around the shop... just for the satisfaction of making life a higher quality experience for everyone! All the Best! ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Justice Discovered In the Universe !
From: Amos
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 11:20 PM

Daylia:

In my lexicon, as in that of most English-speakers for the last thousand years, the term "Man", especially when capitalized, refers to the bipedal human species, which like most mammalian species has two genders in it.   There is also a second definition, of course, referring to the subset with the dangly bits, but that isn't the definition I was referring to, which is clear from context, I think.
Thanks for that link -- I expect that Goddess' name was pronounced "Deekeh" or perhaps even "Theekeh" in the original tongue, but I had not been aware of her before!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Justice Discovered In the Universe !
From: Amos
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 11:25 PM

(Actually, I need to add that I greatly appreciate the reminder that the Greeks had, at least, enough sense to elevate justice to a high level of divinity -- Titannesses! The couplet I threw off up above was scribbled down when I was much younger, in a fit of pique against the vengeful image of God portrayed int he Old Testament.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Justice Discovered In the Universe !
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 11:30 PM

ttr-If people are telling you that Darwinism doesn't allow for cooperation, they don't understand what "fittest" means. In many cases, the best able to survive and reproduce are those who cooperate for the greater good.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice Discovered In the Universe !
From: michaelr
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 03:11 AM

...people stop altruistic cooperation to the degree they perceive unfairness in the sanctions of the justice process, or the rules of play.

So you're saying there is such a thing as altruistic cooperation outside of the Mudcat Forum?

...people are less willing to play if they perceive injustice in the rules.

Might this explain why nobody votes anymore?

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Justice Discovered In the Universe !
From: Wolfgang
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 06:43 AM

Whole article (at the time of my posting; Nature articles are elusive on the web)

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Justice Discovered In the Universe !
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 06:50 AM

Justice...as I've gotten older I've become less enthralled with Justice and more with Mercy -- on a personal level, that is!

Subject: RE: BS: Justice Discovered In the Universe !
From: DonMeixner
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 08:13 AM

Amos,

Maybe in the universe but rarely in New York and never in Texas.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Justice Discovered In the Universe !
From: Amos
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 09:04 AM

Too true, Don. But ya gotta grab hope where you can find it , eh?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Justice Discovered In the Universe !
From: *daylia*
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 09:12 AM

Yeah Amos, the more virtuous of human qualities were more often personified as Goddesses than Gods in ancient times, ie. the Muses and the Graces of ancient Greece. Even today we have the female Statue of Liberty!

With the onset of patriarchial religions, however, Her many names often were slanderized in an attempt to oust Her from people's affections.

For example, Hathor, the great Mother of Egypt, became "whore".

Bast, the cat-headed Sun Goddess of music and fertility became the root of "bastard".

And the Greek Dike came to mean a woman displaying the not-so-feminine and threatening (to men) qualities of Conan the Barbarian.

Oh well. There's Justice for ya ... NOT!

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Justice Discovered In the Universe !
From: Bagpuss
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 09:46 AM

From etymology on-line:

bastard - 1223, from O.Fr., "child of a nobleman by a woman other than his wife," probably from fils de bast "packsaddle son," meaning a child conceived on an improvised bed (saddles often doubled as beds while traveling), with pejorative ending -art. Alternate possibly is that the word is from P.Gmc. *banstiz "barn," suggestive of low origin. Not always regarded as a stigma; the Conqueror is refered to in state documents as "William the Bastard." Figurative sense is from 1552; bastardize is from 1587.

whore - O.E. hore "prostitute, harlot," from P.Gmc. *khoraz (fem. *khoron-) "one who desires," a common Gmc. word (cf. Dan. hore, Du. hoer, O.H.G. huora (Goth. has left only the masc. form hors "adulterer, fornicator"), from PIE *qar-, a base that has produced words in other languages for "lover" (cf. L. carus "dear," O.Ir. cara "friend," Skt. kamah "love, desire" -- the first element in kamasutra). The verb meaning "to have to do with whores" is from 1583. M.E. whoreson (often used affectionately) translates Anglo-Fr. fiz a putain.

dyke - 1931, Amer.Eng., probably shortening of morphadike, dialectal garbling of hermaphrodite, but bulldyker "engage in lesbian activities" is attested from 1921, and a source from 1896 lists dyke as slang for "the vulva."

Subject: RE: BS: Justice Discovered In the Universe !
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 09:56 AM

Isn't "morphadike" is a great sounding word.

Saddle as a bed? I imagine the kind of saddle involved would be more like a folded blanket, not the kind of shaped leather contrivance we associate with the word these days.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice Discovered In the Universe !
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 10:01 AM

There is great philosophical debate over whether true (as in 'pure') altruism ever exists. It may be like a vacuum, in that forces are constantly at work to make it unstable.....but it is nice to see occasional attempts--which often accompany relative justice.


"The rain, it raineth every day,
Upon the just & unjust fella;
But more upon the just because
The unjust hath the just's unbrella."

Lord Bowen

(many, many variations on this)

Subject: RE: BS: Justice Discovered In the Universe !
From: *daylia*
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 04:12 PM

Bagpuss, thanks for the etymology. I was duly inspired to find an on-line reference to support my claim, but to no avail!

I first heard about the various names of the Goddess being 'bastardized'(?) while studying ancient religions with a group of (decidedly feminist) neo-pagans. It's 'common knowledge' in those circles, anyway. And although my hunch is that they are correct, I should know better than to post unsubstantiated claims on Mudcat by now! I messed up there - sorry.

daylia

PS did I get my just deserts??? ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Justice Discovered In the Universe !
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 05:53 PM

"False etymologies" are quite fun, and there's a lot of them around that are "common knowledge".

Here is a site with a quiz about that kind of stuff.

My favourite one is the "curmudgeon" one chronicled in Brewers. Dr Johnson in his dictionary wrote, quite correctly, that it was derived from the French expression "coeur mechant" and credited it to "unknown correspondent".

A contemporary Dr Ash rushed out a rival dictionary, ripping off Dr Johnson's left right and centre - and he gave the game away when it came to his definition of curmudgeon - "coeur" - unknown, "mechant" correspondent, so that the whole word was taken to mean "unknown correspondent.

Talking of curmudgeons, which we weren't, but I've got round to it now, here's a site which I just found which could be interesting for some Mudcatters, I think: The Folk Curmudgeon Review

Subject: RE: BS: Justice Discovered In the Universe !
From: *daylia*
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 08:45 AM

Kevin I love the links, especially the "Folk Curmudgeon Review"!

"When we connect with an audience we can feel them transported, when we do them right. That gets back to the point of slow songs and tragedies being the heart of the music for me. Our friend, Art Thieme, explains the term comic relief as being just that: relief from the tragic bits."

Is this Mudcat's very own Art Thieme being referred to?

As for the quiz, just looking over the list I'm discovering how little I know about etymology! Sheesh I wasn't even sure what the word meant till yesterday ... think I'll study a bit before I take it! ;)

I'm still a bit amazed at the way my about-to-be-proven-questionable - and perhaps gender-biased? - claims about the Goddess were so quickly routed! JUSTICIA RULES indeed, bless Her!

As to the original debate re Justice, I find Amos' words hopeful indeed: "What this paper asserts is that people stop altruistic cooperation to the degree they perceive unfairness in the sanctions of the justice process, or the rules of play. -- people are less willing to play if they perceive injustice in the rules."

But here's a question - if that is true, now that so much evidence exists about the birth defects, disease, starvation and death suffered by a half million Iraqi children as a result of the first Gulf War and UN sanctions, then why oh why are so many still willing to cooperate with their gov'ts in playing that horrible game? Is the current situation not convincing proof that the innate human tendency toward "altruism" and "justice" rank much lower that self-interest as the underlying motivation for human social behavior?

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Justice Discovered In the Universe !
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 08:51 AM

Two things, daylia -- lack of knowledge and lack of immediacy (the kids are in Iraq, not Ohio).

Subject: RE: BS: Justice Discovered In the Universe !
From: Amos
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 09:07 AM

In order for this principle to have a significant impact on the public zeal, they would have to perceive the unfairness in the process. The sanctions against Iraq have always been remediable, as far as I know, requiring only a pro-active disarmament. Just as President Bush makes all Americans look like loose cannons and bullies to some overseas perspectives, so does Hussein's intransigence make it seem like the priveleges of fairness were withdrawn for fair reasons -- treacherous and destructive misconduct.

The fact citizens are suffering is kind of obscured by the presentation of "Evil Leader", partly because of the Bush PR machine, and partly because of truth.

Also, your question supposes that the evidence yyou mention _is_ widely known. In fact a lot of people are happily ignorant of it.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Justice Discovered In the Universe !
From: *daylia*
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 09:28 AM

Well thanks to places like Mudcat, hopefully the word will spread - and quickly too. And I certainly don't mean to exonerate Saddam's (alleged?) refusal to comply with the UN's demands by saying that!

I think that the only way to get Saddam and others like him to disarm is for the UN to pass resolutions requiring everyone, and I mean everyone to disarm, however gradually. Especially the US and Israel. But I know how naive and far-fetched that sounds ...

*big sigh*

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Justice Discovered In the Universe !
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 03:39 PM

daylia...I knew a guy once who fancied himself a 'soldier of fortune' and immersed himself in things military. We were talking one day about 'war' and it's gory glory, when I facetiously suggested that I'd like to see disputes settled by issuing each soldier a bag of marshmallows to throw, and have a rule that you were 'out' when you had a certain number of dusty 'hits'.

"Yeah", said my friend, "that might be ok...for awhile, but then some son-of-a-bitch like me would come along and put a rock inside each marshmallow....and off we'd go again!"

I suspect he was a LOT closer to the truth than I like to think about.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice Discovered In the Universe !
From: Kim C
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 03:58 PM

I never heard of the Greek Dike. I have heard of Nike, though...

Subject: RE: BS: Justice Discovered In the Universe !
From: Amos
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 04:27 PM

I have been told that all those Goddesses look alike in the dark, but I do not believe it for a minute! :>)

A

Subject: RE: BS: Justice Discovered In the Universe !
From: *daylia*
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 01:38 PM

Your hunch is right on, Amos! You wouldn't want to meet these divine Ladies on a dark night!

The Erinyes, or the Furies, Greek goddesses of battle and vengeance.

SEKHMET
lion-headed Egyptian Sun Goddess of wrath and divine justice. For more about her click here.

And this is a rather chilling (?) story of the Hindu Kali Ma, consort of Shiva (the Destroyer aspect of the Hindu trinity). She is often pictured with multiple arms and legs, devouring the bodies of her victims.

A far cry from the sweet little sex-kitten Aphrodite!
Here she is as the Roman Venus. (One of my favourite classical paintings!)

Well, Justice sure has "Her" darker aspects, eh?

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Justice Discovered In the Universe !
From: Amos
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 02:29 PM

I guess one lesson we're slow to learn from history is that when you insist on luck and virtue coming from external icons, you screw them up big-time. Maybe we'd be better off maturing somewhat and deciding to take responsibility for and make our own justice, virtue, luck, and magic personally instead of running around like minicephalic neanderthals trying to pin such things on the cosmos. Sheeshe!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Justice Discovered In the Universe !
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 11:06 AM

Absolutely correct, Amos (referring to the original point of the thread).

When people have genuine respect for each other, and genuine liking for each other, and respect and love for those in authority (whatever that authority may be), then altruism becomes quite evident in their behaviour.

Why? Because of love. People are naturally altruistic when they feel love for others, and they generally feel love for others when those others treat them fairly, kindly, and with respect and consideration.

Thus a system which encourages altruism brings forth altruism, which is natural in people.

A system which encourages ruthlessness, force, dishonesty, coercion, and so on tends to eliminate altruism in almost everybody, because it extinguishes love, hope, and goodwill.

To base a system merely on direct personal gain is a lazy and almost unutterrably stupid approach to building a society, and it leads to a downward spiral into worse and worse forms of behaviour, because it denies love.

So much for Darwinism. It is fit for gangsters and brutes, but not for evolving human beings.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice Discovered In the Universe !
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 11:52 AM

Aw Little... You are all over it... again! Nice to have you back! ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Justice Discovered In the Universe !
From: Amos
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 12:59 PM

LH:

Darwinism merely stipulates that better survival rewards the form and activity that brings it about -- and it is liekly, in my view, that intelligent altruism is in fact a key to better survival, longer life, less distress at the cellular level through the yearts, and therefore an important Darwinian vector.

The big error is to confuse it with dialectic materialism, which is, indirectly, a stupid kind of Darwinism that focuses only on mechanism and material change and ignores adaptations born in compassion or a sense of higher orders of value.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Justice Discovered In the Universe !
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 05:18 PM

We don't get by as individuals, we get by as groups - families, neighbourhoods, societies. And cooperating with each other is the main mechanism by which we do that.

And it even goes beyond this, we aren't just members of one isolated individual species, we're part of a whole ecological community.

Once again, Kropotkin said it first (probably), at a time "Social Darwinism" was all the rage.

(And "Social Darwinism" is a better term for that kind of thinking than "Dialectical Materialism", I'd suggest, given that the most influential people who think and behave like that aren't the kind of Socialists who revered "Dialectical Materialsism", but today's red-in-tooth-and-claw Capitalists, who really believe that stuff.)

Subject: RE: BS: Justice Discovered In the Universe !
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 06:10 PM

Agreed, Amos! Well said. Intelligent altruism is the key to health, prosperity, peace of mind, and all things good in this life.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice Discovered In the Universe !
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 06:10 PM

Thank you, Amos, though unfortunately natural selection rewards those who reproduce more successfully, not simply those who survive best. That unfortunate difference explains a number of problems for individual well-being: living too long is inconvenient for the kids. If I recall correctly, Social Darwinism was actually the belief that societies followed natural selection, and thus that the reason European society flourished was that it was inherently superior.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice Discovered In the Universe !
From: The Pooka
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 06:42 PM

Well, now, in Fairness, which is what this thread is about: *some* of the more politically-successful (naturally-selected??) Dialectical Materialists got rather scarlet-in-the-fangs-and-talons themselves, Mr. McG.; and all in the name (supposedly) of humankind's collective cooperative wellbeing. V.I. Lenin, for one example amongst several. However.

This theory is indeed very encouraging, Amos. Thanks. It's nice to find out that something we *want* to believe, just might be objectively true! / Also encouraging is the knowledge that there are still mammalian bipeds capable of writing: "...make our own justice, virtue, luck, and magic personally instead of running around like minicephalic neanderthals trying to pin such things on the cosmos." Wow. Now that is eloquence evoking Shock & Awe. Seriously, A. (Where's that Book?)

Cheers,

~ Pike
   Demigod of the Microgenitalian Firbolgs
    Croagh Magnon, Ireland

Subject: RE: BS: Justice Discovered In the Universe !
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 07:42 PM

Well these days, Pooka,it seems it's the "free market" capitalists who are the main purveyors of that way of seeing the world, now that state capitalists (such as Lenin) are out of the picture, for the time being at least. Neither variety really seem to pay much attention to cooperation and mutual aid as the way to do things better.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice Discovered In the Universe !
From: Amos
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 09:22 PM

Dang, Pooker, ya made my day again saying those nice things. Now I'm all swole up from the neck up!

Thanks,


A

Subject: RE: BS: Justice Discovered In the Universe !
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 11:04 PM

Yeah, McGrath, and is the free market really the free market anymore when it is dominated by a consortium of giant multinational companies that drive local small business under and answer to no one? I don't think so. I think it's a capitalist oligarchy very similar in effect to the communist oligarchy...massive centralized power seeking to perpetuate and enlarge itself, and dehumanizing life and destroying nature in the process.

It's outer style is different, that's all. The capitalist oligarchy markets flashy consumer goods, credit, and excess while seeking military supremacy. The communist system dispensed political propaganda and a certain dull, basic level of material security while seeking military supremacy.

Obviously, flashy excess sells better, so the Communists lost out. Both of them, however, enslaved people quite effectively in their own inimitable fashion.

I believe in neither of them, and support neither of them. I put up with them as best I can They can't control my thoughts or change who I am.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice Discovered In the Universe !
From: *daylia*
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 08:59 AM

Amos said " Maybe we'd be better off maturing somewhat and deciding to take responsibility for and make our own justice, virtue, luck, and magic personally instead of running around like minicephalic neanderthals trying to pin such things on the cosmos. Sheeshe!"

I don't think that focusing on the ancient God/desses appeals to only "minicephalic neanderthals" who try to "pin such things on the cosmos".
On the contrary, the timeless divine archetypes provide valuable insight into the mysteries of human nature, and the nature of life itself. They often serve to personify the very character traits that are most difficult to recognize in oneself and in one's culture (ie. rage, destructiveness, greed).

By "exteriorizing" those traits in the form of 'gods' and 'goddesses', a measure of objectivity and emotional detachment is created, enabling one to 'step aside" and look at those aspects of human nature more 'logically', understand them more deeply, recognize them more honestly.

I think that this is the reason for the creation of the myths and god/dess-forms in the first place! Not to "blame" the divine archetypes/personifications for all one's ills (that IS minicephalic!)
but to provide a colorful, often exaggerated image of those very tendencies which prove most difficult to understand, recognize and deal with in oneself. So that we can learn to control them, to use them more beneficially and constructively.

I think that's why Joseph Campbell made it his life's work to study the myths of the world and deepen understanding of them today.

I don't feel I did justice to the great Hindu Goddess of death, the Kali Ma, with the rather frivolous story about her I linked you to above. This one offers a much better image and explanation of who She was (is).

And I say "is" because "Her" influence is still very much alive and most important in India today. Did you know that Mother Theresa, who is due to be beatified by the Pope next year, built her Home for the Dying on the grounds of the ancient Hindu Temple to the Kali-Ma, the Kalighut Temple in Calcutta? Information here.

The animal sacrifices are still made to the Goddess of Death in that Temple daily, and are used to feed Calcutta's starving. Mother Theresa's mission of hope, love, and dignity to the dying continues there today as well. So the "Goddess of Death" is the very same as the "Goddess of Love and Charity", and "She" knows no religious bounds or restrictions. Imagine, a Catholic, Christian mission being established on the very 'grounds' of the Hindu Goddess!

Facts like these give me hope that Justice is not just "Discovered", but truly manifest even in the midst of the darkest, most horrific of human experiences today. And that the ancient divine "personifications" of human nature still have a most vital role to play in the making of a better world, and thus in the process of human evolution itself.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Justice Discovered In the Universe !
From: Amos
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 09:18 AM

I have LITTLE problem with using mythic figures as words in the language of metaphysics.

But it is highly bewildering to newcomers who are barely old enough to have some idea what a "person" is, to then have to wrestle with the corruption of "archetypal metaphor" into a projected "person" which exercises a lot more power over "you than you do over your own life. Isn't that a rather debilitating disservice to someone trying to learn how to manage existence in the middle of a drunken midden? Attributing the situation of the individual and the group in the complex of forces and flows of life to embodies verities, it strikes me, is at best a rather egoistic shorthand and at worst a complete betrayal of trust to those who need to learn what gives.

In their origins, faced with highly complex systems and equipped with very little workable insight into them, the development of divinities strikes me as so much science-fiction -- a creative exercise in wrassling with the unknown. But I don't think people should worship science fiction, whether Kali, Blavatsky, Dianetics or more mainstream figments.

Sorry if I have stepped on any toes here. I do not intend to offend, merely to offer an alternative point of view.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Justice Discovered In the Universe !
From: *daylia*
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 10:11 AM

Amos the value of the myths, and how they are used, depends entirely on one's needs, desires and ability to perceive/understand the truths they embody. I for one am most grateful for the "roadmap" they provide, both of my own inner nature/experience of life and of the nature and development of all human civilization(s) and cultures.

And no, my toes aren't feeling trampled - I do enjoy debating these things too - for awhile, anyway!

daylia