Does it get easier??? (singing)

Subject: Does it get easier???
From: Zany Mouse
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 11:56 AM

After a gap of a few years I've tried to get back into singing to find that I am suffering horribly from nerves. I love singing, I love the songs that I sing and think they should be preserved (and sung), BUT - (and it is a very big BUT) - I find the pleasure of singing is taken away by the sound of my knees knocking!

My partner and singing friends tell me it gets easier - is this true or are they just being nice to me? Any hints? I am actually thinking of calling it a day and just being audience.

ZM

Subject: RE: Does it get easier???
From: Alice
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 12:00 PM

It does get easier. If you keep singing with friends and in small groups, you will eventually feel so comfortable that you won't hesitate to sing. You can work into it gradually, if that helps. Sing along with others and then take a solo on a verse or two, gradually getting more comfortable with it.

Alice

Subject: RE: Does it get easier???
From: Maryrrf
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 12:06 PM

Yes, yes, yes!!! It gets easier every time you do it. And there are few psychological tricks to help you along. Think to yourself, what is really going to happen if I mess up? The answer is nothing. In most cases people will empathize and it would have to be a very rude person indeed to insult or criticize you - therefore their opinion has little value. There will be plenty of people who will encourage you and like what you do. I assume you are singing on an informal basis and not getting paid, but even people doing paid gigs have an off night, make a mistake, start out in the wrong key sometimes, etc. None of these mistakes have horrendous consequences. If you enjoy your singing and your songs, chances are others will too. So force yourself to perform and the nervousness WILL go away.

Subject: RE: Does it get easier???
From: alanww
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 12:39 PM

Stick at it Zany Mouse, its worth it. Nothing terrible happens if it all goes wrong. I've seen a well know and paid shanty singer twice stop a song which he forgot and start another song in a wrong key all during one set - so what! We all do it sometimes and in my case many times!   When the "so what factor" gets into your brain, some (but only some!) of the nerves disappear and the quality of your singing improves!

"Dancing and singing, bell ringing ...!"
Alan

Subject: RE: Does it get easier???
From: Kim C
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 12:50 PM

Emerson once said, that which we persist in doing becomes easier, not because the nature of the task has changed, but because our ability to perform it has increased. :-)

Subject: RE: Does it get easier???
From: Leadfingers
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 12:50 PM

Cant argue with any of the above. It DOES get easier the more you do it and by the same token,the more you do it the better you will get,
assuming that is you do have SOME talent.Any muscle not used will not get stronger and that applies to your performing muscle as much as any other.I do remember a top Pro performer who said 'When you Stop being nervous is the time to stop peforming,because you are TOO confident then.

Subject: RE: Does it get easier???
From: MMario
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 12:50 PM

speaking only for myself - no - it doesn't get any easier - but my coping mechanisms get a lot more practice, and yes, it is worth it.

Subject: RE: Does it get easier???
From: Amos
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 12:56 PM

Well, I've found it gets easier as the years go by. Knee-knocking is a byproduct of putting more attention on self than on the song. You're okay -- for one thing you're showing the strength to sing out loud -- so focus your attention on the song and making sure it reaches those hearing it.

And do MORE of it. (Singing). More ya do, easier it gets.

A

Subject: RE: Does it get easier???
From: Roger in Baltimore
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 03:25 PM

Zany Mouse,

It gets easier. The symptoms of nervousness get lessened, but they never go away. They are always there at the start for me, but by song #2 or #3 they are gone.

Roger in Baltimore

Subject: RE: Does it get easier???
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 03:50 PM

Zany Mouse,

Sing as much as you can within the context of groups of singers and musicians instead of in front of an audience of non-performers.   Outdoor music festivals are great for building up your confidence. At a campfire session or in the festival jam tent you get to sing among your musical peers instead of for an audience. The psychological fence that sits between performer and audience is not quite so high if you know that the people listening spend a lot of time on your side of the fence. And there's no confidence builder quite like a sincere compliment from another performer.

Bruce

Subject: RE: Does it get easier???
From: Kim C
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 03:55 PM

I'm always nervous before a show and I've been performing for almost 30 years! (yes, I started at age 6) But it isn't usually nervous in a scary way - it's usually nervous in a high-energy, let's go get-em and have some fun way.

Subject: RE: Does it get easier???
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 04:24 PM

Zany:

You're nervous because you're thinking of all the things that could go wrong. Evntually, if you sing long enough, all of these things will go wrong and you'll discover that when something goes wrong you do not get struck by lightning and neither does the earth open and swallow you up.

We used to be amazed to watch someone perform two or three sets without making a mistake. We thought we could never do that. Then we discovered that everyone makes mistakes but some people carry them off much better than others. Once we lost the fear of making mistakes, we made less of them. Sometimes we actually do perform two or three sets without a mistake but most of the time we don't.

So, keep doing it and we promise it will get easier and easier.

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: Does it get easier???
From: Maryrrf
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 05:13 PM

Yes, that's a good point about mistakes. Performers make them all the time and most of the time other people don't take notice, because the performer has learned to glide over it, make light of it if it is too obvious to cover up, but above all not get upset and let it interrupt the performance flow. Good suggestion also about performing for your peers. There's always that adrenalin rush when you go up on stage but if you persist it should turn to more of a feeling of excitement and anticipation rather than fear. I think this comes, in large part as Bev and Jerry said, from messing up sometimes and realizing nothing bad is going to happen. I think it's rare for a performer to get pelted with eggs or rotten tomatoes!

Subject: RE: Does it get easier???
From: John Routledge
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 05:25 PM

Hi ZM

I started singing again a couple of years ago after a complete gap of almost 30 years.

At first it was really nerve racking but it is now much easier MOST of the time.

Trying to rationalise one's fears takes a long while and may not be successful.

The easiest way to overcome your nervousness about singing is to do it.:0)

Please keep at it - it really does get easier.

Subject: RE: Does it get easier???
From: SeanM
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 05:31 PM

I'm with MMario (hiya!) on this one. It never gets "easier", so much as you get accustomed to it and figure out ways to cope with the stress. Even after years of singing, you can still find that stage fright if you look inside yourself deep enough. Not that this is anything remotely resembling a good idea to do, of course.

You might want to consider hitting the local library for some books on public speaking. In all honesty, while the "performance" is different, the stagefright is the same. What works for one will normally work for the other.

Personally, I was blessed with starting relatively early (22ish). I solved my dilemma by getting staggering drunk before singing. Didn't hurt that I was with a bunch of other folks either drunk or pretending to be so in order to sing "creatively" rather than "well". By the time I got around to needing to sound better, I'd a thick layer of coping mechanism left for when the alcohol haze cleared.

Not that I've stopped drinking for shows or anything - a pint a set, that's all we ask...

M

Subject: RE: Does it get easier???
From: JohnnyBeezer
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 10:48 AM

Zany Mouse

As with Athletics or other sports, it helps to have a little Adrenalin and nervousness going at the start of a gig. It tends to focus the mind and prevent you from being too blase or complacent.
It soon disappears as you warm to the audience and vice versa. And always remember, people want you to do well. You're among friends in this lovely little business.

Shalom
Johnny N

Subject: RE: Does it get easier???
From: Firecat
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 11:06 AM

It DOES get easier the more you do. I find, as quite a shy person when around strangers that if I just imagine myself in a situation that I feel comfortable in (eg bedroom), I get the confidence to give a good performance.

Subject: RE: Does it get easier???
From: Deni-C
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 11:27 AM

The sound of knocking knees is great. Your own percussion.

it does get easier, but I think you should kee a little bit of adrenalin-charged stuff to make you perform well. Channel it into beating each challenge and it'll soon become a positive help.

Good luck and enjoy.....

We're all on your side.....

Best Wishes
Deni
Mad Rush

firecat. I can think of plenty of people who get nervous performing in bedrooms.

Subject: RE: Does it get easier???
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 12:11 PM

It does get easier. Then I found I didn't get quite so nervous and didn't perform as well as I wanted to. Getting nervous keeps me on my toes. My only real problem (and it could be my age, girls) is that I go scarlet. I'm becoming so self conscious about it, it makes it worse. Any ideas as to how to prevent this from happening?

Sal

Subject: RE: Does it get easier???
From: Peter T.
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 12:14 PM

As a novice, and someone who is terribly nervous about this new embarkation, I have found in my few times out there that (to add to Amos' remark) what really helps is to think of yourself (if you are a folkie doing trad stuff) as simply a vehicle for the song -- which you are. The song is way more powerful than you are. If you focus on the song -- I want them to hear the song, respond to the song, how can I interpret it best, teach it to people who have likely never heard it before, hey, this is really interesting music -- "You" sort of disappear in performance. I don't know if that is all blather, but it works. I borrowed it from the theatre -- when you are doing Shakespeare, it is great to be able to be an instrument for getting Shakespeare across to people. You feel like part of something bigger than you are, and you relax about yourself, while becoming energised to "sell" the stuff. On the other hand, you get nervous about betraying the material, but that is easier to deal with, as far as I am concerned.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Does it get easier???
From: Roughyed
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 01:56 PM

I think that's really good advice from Peter T. I find that it helps people who have to speak in public if they stop thinking of it as "all those people looking at me" and think of it as "I've got something to tell these people", which in our case is the song.

If you want look at an audience you can focus on a spot in the middle of their forehead. It looks to them like you're looking right in their eyes but it doesn't distract you the same. Some people look just over the audiences heads and others pick one person to sing to (who can get very paranoid). See what helps.

In terms of whether it gets better, you'll find that there is a wider and wider area where you are comfortable and hardly nervous at all. After thirty odd years I still get nervous in new situations or with a larger audience than I am used to. It's just that I don't let them know now because over the years I've learned to keep the symptoms hidden. Nobody knows what is going on in your head unless you tell them or let your voice wobble. Breathe deep, relax your throat and enjoy the song.

Subject: RE: Does it get easier???
From: aussiebloke
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 02:18 PM

A wise woman once told me that you never quite make the butterflies in the stomach go away completely, but over time you do get them to fly in formation. Persist.

Cheers

aussiebloke

Subject: RE: Does it get easier???
From: Cas
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 03:21 PM

Fly in formation!! I like that!!!

I found that having a "secruity blanket" to hold onto was useful, only in my case it was the words because I have terrible CRS (Can't remember s............tuff). I can perform without it, but it shows and I try not to.

LTS masquerading as Cas....

Subject: RE: Does it get easier???
From: Zany Mouse
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 12:38 PM

Hi Catters

Many thanks for all the help, advice and encouragement. I even managed one song at the Runswick Rescue Boat session yesterday!

I love the comment about flying in formation.

Catters rule again!

ZM

Subject: RE: Does it get easier???
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 12:53 PM

A fellow at Banjo Camp North last year told me about attending an all-day event at (I think it was) Lincoln Center, where Yo-yo Ma, the famous cellist, played all (I think it was six) Bach unaccompanied cello sonatas in one day. Just him, the riveted center of attention for maybe four hours.

This guy (forget his name now) had a chance to speak to Yo-Yo Ma, and asked if that concentrated attention to him, playing some of the most complicated music there is, didn't give him a fit of nerves.

Yo-Yo Ma said, "Not at all. I take the attitude that I have something to share, and nothing to prove."

When one suffers from stagefright, it's because he's worried about people's attitude toward himself; he's not focusing on what he should, which is (in our case) the song.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Does it get easier???
From: Mr Red
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 07:06 PM

I invariably semi-sit on the back of a chair. It takes the weight off my legs while leaving the sola plexus unconstrained by a folded midriff. The first half pint is good for nerves too, but not necessarilly the next few. Knowing that the reason for shaky legs (and the larynx as that is a muscle too) is adrenaline also helps - you know what to aim for in reducing the effect. Alcohol lessons that. Telling a joke before you sing (short ones) can help get you and your audience started but chose jokes wisely, humour is all about context, if it falls flat it will unsettle you more! Chose chorus songs a lot - it helps when they are singing along to prepare for the next verse (another adrenaline moment).

Subject: RE: Does it get easier???
From: vectis
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 07:25 PM

I adore the flying in formation idea :-) Very OZ goodonya

Someone once said
The time you're not nervous is the time you give a bad performance
It was someone famous but I've forgotton who. He was right though. A little nervousness gives your performance an edge and the day you lose it is the day you become complacment, followed by becoming boring.
Keep performing and you'll improve and IT WILL get easier; just don't get too relaxed or you risk losing that important edge which makes you work hard to entertain others.
Mary

Subject: RE: Does it get easier???
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 09:41 PM

I belong to a church choir, and I'm never nervous when I'm in the group. It gives me a chance to hide behind somebody.

For solo work, consider singing songs which are funny or unique. Somehow, people will forgive a singer anything if the song is funny.

If you are singing something unique, then you can tell yourself that your singing is the only way the people will ever hear this work of art, so it doesn't have to be performed perfectly.

Another thing that helps in a session is for the leader to say, "Let's share pieces we're working on." This brings out a lot of pieces from shy people, because everyone understands that the pieces aer not perfected yet.

Subject: RE: Does it get easier???
From: My guru always said
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 05:28 AM

ZM: very glad you're trying to get back into singing, you've got a lovely voice & a marvellous collection of songs that need to be aired - go for it :-)

butterflies flying in formation = Red Admirals?

Subject: RE: Does it get easier???
From: GUEST,ivor hugerhampton
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 05:59 AM

A piece of advice I was given many years ago.

When you get up to sing,imagine the audiance are sat down doing a collective dump. That should do it!! nerves dissapear, but beware!!!!! some times replaced by an overwhelming urge to laugh, then forget the words, then you are in trouble

Subject: RE: Does it get easier???
From: wilco
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 09:02 AM

I'm a part-time bodybuilder, weighing about 250 pounds. I play with a lot af brand new musicians who are very nervous. I often tell the audience that I am going to deliberatly insert a few "off-notes, go flat occasionally, or sneak in the wrong chord, just to see if they are paying attention." Then, I tell them that, "...if they hear any of them, I'll meet them out back after the show, and we can talk about it!" I've never had any problems. Works every time.

Subject: RE: Does it get easier???
From: Zany Mouse
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 12:43 PM

WILCO! Wow, 250 pounds - MY HERO! Are you tall too??? [Giggle].

Guru: Thanks for the compliment - as one of my best friends I think you might be a tad biased. But thanks anyway.

ZM

Subject: RE: Does it get easier???
From: radriano
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 04:44 PM

What's with the three question marks in the subject header?

Subject: RE: Does it get easier???
From: JulieF
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 09:29 AM

Speaking as someone who has been so nervous she forgot to breathe and shook severely on every occasion I agree with most people. It does get easier and its best to start singing with an informal group rather than in front on a nonparticipating audience.

I found that suddenly just after Christmas something changed for me and I was much, much better. Either it was a reaction to other events in my life - ie 'if I can cope with that then what am I worring about here?' or the St John's Wort was really kicking in at that point.
I can now go into pubs on my own and sing with and to people I don't know. Still nervous but only shake slightly and can breathe better!

I don't recomend such major upheaval as a solution to nerves but it show that if you keep at it may just change like that for you as well.

All the best
Julie

Subject: RE: Does it get easier???
From: MMario
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 09:35 AM

y'know what the funny thing is? I often find it much easier to sing to total strangers then I do to people I know!

It was MUCH easier to get up on stage at the Getaway and sing solo to the audience then it was to join with Eammon's Kitchen for a number at their bbq in Texas.

And even though I botched it - again, it was easier to sing a duet with the performer on stage at the Scarborough Faire (having to have my part prompted...*blush*)then it was to attempt a gaelic chorus in front of Aine

Subject: RE: Does it get easier???
From: Jim Colbert
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 10:08 AM

I never sang in public until 2 days before my 40th birthday. I've always been self-conscious about my voice, but I just reached the point where I said, I am going to try this. What's the worst that could happen? I make an ass out of myself. Done that before, I'll do it again. No biggie. It was like I had just scaled a huge wall, reaching the point of feeling like, I can try this. I opened by saying "I'm somewhere between scared shitless, and I don't give a shit." Kinda broke the ice. So I did a set of mostly originals and got a standing ovation!

But I think it's a great observation that what really improves is your coping skills after you continue to go out there and do okay. Heck, I sure ain't never gonna be a great singer, but I feel relatively confident now that I can get the point of my songs across. If I have the chance to sing now, I just do it.

And one other thing too that might help- there's usually always at least one person that is there to listen, no matter how rowdy or indifferent the crowd. Sing it to them.

I think it was Christine Lavin that made the joke about having heard that picturing her audience naked would make the performer at ease, but she tried it with a folk crowd and had to run off screaming...!

jim

Subject: RE: Does it get easier???
From: Bernard
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 01:54 PM

I remember the first time I performed in public, around 35 years ago. I froze. Very embarrassing.

Yes, it does get easier - these days I have no nerves at all, and can sing and play to any size of audience.

One little word of advice... it is far harder to sing in front of friends and family than in front of complete strangers!!

Stick at it - you will be rewarded!

Subject: RE: Does it get easier???
From: Jim Colbert
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 02:01 PM

Interesting, Bernard... I find it easier to sing to strangers! But we've each got our own comfort levels. Where are you guys on this thought? I mean, theoretically I should be more at ease singing to my wife, but I ain't!

jpc

Subject: RE: Does it get easier???
From: Jazzyjack
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 03:01 PM

Here's something to think about. LIVE IN THE PRESENT. If you decide to sing in public, you must do it to enjoy the moment. It is a collective joy for you and your listeners and not an anxiety filled experience.
I have found that my initial nervousness has been chanelled into an adrenaline rush as I take the stage to enjoy performing what I consider to be meaningful songs appropriate for that audience. Have this confidence. Folk singers are always prepared with a repertoire much better than singers in other genres. I have enjoyed many barely acceptable voices singing interesting songs. Besides, you can chat up the audience to relieve some of the tension. They want to know about you, your experiences and why you are singing that song.
One other thing. A good performance lies somewhere between emotional outpouring and control. Don't get completely carried away. YOU ARE IN CONTROL. This is your gift to your audience.

Subject: RE: Does it get easier???
From: Beccy
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 10:38 AM

At the risk of sounding ambivalent... It does get easier AND it doesn't.
I think the thing that gets easier is that you learn how to cope with the nervousness. I had a theatre prof who told us that she used to vomit before ever single show she was in. She stopped vomiting, but she still got visibly nervous. She came to the conclusion that if she was nervous it was because she was so eager to do a good job. Eagerness is not a bad thing, eh?

I think that if you have an innate nervousness performing in front of people that may not change, but you can train yourself to channel that nervousness into energy for your performance.

Buck up. You'll do great!

Subject: RE: Does it get easier???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 08:42 PM

Yes! It gets easier. In fact, it becomes pure joy as time goes by.

Subject: RE: Does it get easier???
From: GUEST,d28 doug in N FL
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 09:58 AM

Sure it gets easier. If you have a good voice it will get real eazy. You know how they describe some voices like the wood in a guitar. If you have a rosewood or mahogany or spruce voice that's great but even people like me who have a voice like plywood seconds can learn to do it right.

I agree with the do a funny song bit, or if the audience is right do something a little off color. Laughter covers a lot. Always be ready to laugh at yourself. (hey I already did that verse...)

doug

Subject: RE: Does it get easier???
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 10:33 AM

I got more confident as I got older, alas, I don't get any better, I just have no shame any more! Chutzpah no substitute for talent!
RtS
(informative introductions, shame about the singing!)

Subject: RE: Does it get easier???
From: Zany Mouse
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 10:55 AM

Thanks to all your kind encouragement I am pleased to report that I sang one song at the Runswick Bay Lifeboat event and managed TWO yesterday at the Manchester event. [Big grin]

ZM

Subject: RE: Does it get easier???
From: Harry Basnett
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 11:17 AM

Hi, Zany....

       And a damned fine job you did at the Open Door Extravaganza...'twas a pleasure to hear you!!

Love and best wishes.........Harry.

Subject: RE: Does it get easier???
From: My guru always said
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 06:37 AM

So glad you're getting back into singing Zany, relax and air those songs!!!!

Subject: RE: Does it get easier???
From: GUEST,Peter from Essex
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 05:08 PM

The most difficult thing I found was admitting to myself that when it comes to singing, I'm a bloody good dancer.

Subject: RE: Does it get easier???
From: Zany Mouse
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 05:11 PM

Ha ha. I can't even dance, Peter.

Harry and Guru: Many, many thanks for your lovely words of encouragement. Maybe I just ought to sing more.

Thanks everyone who added to this thread - I am on my way back now.

ZM

Subject: RE: Does it get easier???
From: InOBU
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 05:14 PM

Take it easy and enjoy yourself, if anything goes wrong, be the first to laugh and the audience will also laugh and you'll go on with the song.
Cheers
Larry

Subject: RE: Does it get easier???
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 05:15 PM

The more you do it, the easier it gets, no matter if you are just first starting out, or coming back to it.