Folk Clubs- We need them!

Subject: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: Strupag
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 07:04 PM

I got a pm recently from a very talented lady across the pond looking for gigs in Scotland and it made me realise, that although the music scene here is buzzing, there is a dearth of venu's and opertunities for the solo performers, particularly those who write and sing their own material.
I feel that the demise of Folk Clubs is a big factor- BUT - The demise came through a lack of attendence to the venues.
Is this the the case throughout the Mudcat world?
It's a tough one, I know, but perhaps one worthy of debate

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: vindelis
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 07:39 PM

I don't know what sort of catchment area Strupag is talking about, but I can say that, the folk club on Portland (UK) folded, as above, through people singing the same songs to the same people week after week. I don't feel that the drink-driving legislation has helped a lot, (combined with the two mile beach road, between Portland and the 'mainland'). Two miles may not seem much to some people, but somehow it seems to be a psycological barrier, both for 'them over there' and 'us' on the island. There are occaisions, when events on 'the mainland' are not supported by 'us', for the same reason! The other problem that seems to rear its ugly head from time to time, is folk club 'politics' - you know 'A' falls out with 'B' over some relatively small point, because the indestructable force has hit the immovable object. I apologise for my ramblings. V.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: Leadfingers
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 08:00 PM

It all seems to be in patches and very cyclic. Round here (UK West of London) we have a good choice of clubs with some very good local singers and musicians,but still some clubs fade away and other are revitalised.It doesnt take many people to relocate (jobs or whatever)
to either kill a club or bring it back to life.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: Strupag
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 05:49 AM

I'm in the North West of Scotland vindelis and I don't know of any folk clubs in the whole Highland area. There used to be dozens.
I dont think there is any alternative to a FC for allowing new artists to face an audience and learn all the relevent skills but perhaps we, the public, are no longer willing to sit and listen to someone learning any more.
The Feis movement up here is growing tremendously and we have many very tallented youngsters playing instruments extremely well. It's just the perfoprmance thing and rapor with and audience that is lacking.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: Bernard
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 05:59 AM

Sadly, if people don't attend folk clubs it means they aren't needed. Here in Bolton, Lancs, there hasn't been a decent folk club for many years - the one I ran in the mid 1980s had to close through lack of support, and a few others suffered a similar fate.

Things like Karaoke (literal translation 'empty orchestra'!) have been contributory factors to the unwillingness of people to give proper attention to those with musical skill and a good singing voice...

Ho hum...

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 06:33 AM

I'm in the same area as Leadfingers, and from what I see around the clubs that do well tend to be the ones that "look after their audience". Let's face it, the majority of attendance at most local clubs is at least 2/3 (and as much as 90%) singers. And it's not hard attracting local performers, but to make the thing pay you need listeners.

But exclusive tactics and practices, "clicky" attitudes etc, where they occur - and they do occur unfortunately - all work against the need to attract new bums on seats. There are happy exceptions (the Herga and Maidenhead clubs are good examples in the area, do visit them). But I have also been in clubs where the organisers will crack one in-house joke too many at the expense of audiences, turning them off and effectively shooting themselves on the foot.

At the end of the day, clubs need organisation, and that means both energy and imagination. Clubs blessed with such organisers will in the end do well, provided they pay attention to the needs of the audience.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: Deni-C
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 07:13 AM

Here in the Plymouth area of the Southwest of England, we have two local clubs, the Hyde and Folk on the Moor.

Ours is the Hyde, which attracts around 40 listeners and players per week. Sometimes we get an influx of students from language school and the university, and sometimes we get as many as 60 people, but I have noticed that most of these want to perform, and on guest nights the attendance drops to around 30. This despite the fact that we only charge £2.50 or £2.50 as gust nights are subsidised by the club. We still feel it's worth putting on guests however, for the liteners and for the fact that if folk clubs don't book guests then who is going to.... I alsways tell guests is nothing personal when only 30 people show up, but they often think this is a good-sized audience compared with audiences elsewhere.

What winds our club members up more than anything is performers with an 'adore me' attitude. Audiences are willing to be won over, but they won't automatically like a performer just because they are good at what they do (that being kind of taken for granted). Therefore the stagecraft angle is essential. Clubs are a valuable training ground. Maybe they should get a grant from the education authority.....

What we need to remember is that a lot of guests we'd consider well-known, are unknown to people who don't read the folk press, follow festivals etc.... I've found when we stopped using the word 'local' in publicity, more listeners turned out for say, a regional guest.

The image we portray is in our hands. People will come if you promote it in the right way.
Deni
Mad Rush


http://www.beehive.thisissouthdevon.co.uk/hydefolk

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 07:16 AM

There are only sessions and singarounds here in Shropshire and the Welsh Borders. (There is a folk club in Hereford and another in Monmouth) but the woods of the West-Midlands are full of 'em.

Sal

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: Mr Red
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 07:59 AM

the Woods of West Midlands are full of a lot of things - like motorways and old cars. for the FC's a good palce to start is cresby.com

The dance scene seems more boyant these days.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: GUEST,Lowkey
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 08:07 AM

Here in the N.E Scotland there are quite a few clubs, but a lot seem to be run by and for the committee. Strangers are not made to feel really wellcomed only tolerated, persevere and go back a few times and as your face gets known attitudes change. I don't know the answer to the problem.
Bill

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: Harry Basnett
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 08:09 AM

The Open Door in Failsworth struggles manfully on despite only having a handful of regulars...we have guest nights (pretty high quality if you check out the website) once a month and a couple of Extravaganza's every year..sort of mini-festivals, all funded by weekly raffles as we don't charge on singers nights. However, as I stated before, the club is struggling with a dozen or so regulars who provide the weekly contributions which subsidise our £2 - £4 admission charges on the Guest nights. The organizers, Pauline and John have done a wonderful job keeping the club together but it sometimes feels we're beating our collective heads gainst a brick wall.

The rise of the festivals in recent years has no doubt contributed somewhat to the decline of the folk club but without the clubs most festival 'stars' could not have learnt their trade.

Good luck to every folk club organizer and thank you to everyone who makes an attempt to support their local club...to those who make no effort to attend or support clubs in their area...one day it might be too late!

Best wishes................Harry Basnett.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: Deni-C
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 08:24 AM

Lowkey -

We've tried to make sure visitors get a welcome by appointing someone to Meet and Greet. She's very charming and a couple of the committee sit near the door to catch the stragglers. The only danger is they'll feel TOO welcome and be terrified off. during the breaks we all circulate chatting, mainly becuase we're nosy and want to know whether they play and their shoe size....

You can just imagine.
Sinister voice, creepy smile,

'come IN my dears, sit DOWN, be welcomed to the Hyde Folk Clb.... '

we even have a mascot called....Jekyll.

Best Wishes

Deni

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 08:55 AM

A very good idea, the "meet and greet", Deni - something other clubs could usefully emulate.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: Sooz
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 09:00 AM

Good clubs, well attended (mostly) in Lincolnshire and South Yorkshire - all with their own individual features and all very welcoming.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: vindelis
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 07:24 PM

The clubs around Dorset, that seem to be doing well, are all monthly events; namely: Royal Wessex Hotel Dorchester, The Elm Tree Langton Herring, The Weaver's Club Sherbourne, and others at Fifehead Magdelene and Winterborne St. Andrew. The attendance at the weekly session at The Cove Inn on Portland and the sing-around at The Ship Inn, in Weymouth tend to fluctuate a bit, but as with all events of this nature there is always the hardcore of dedicated people to keep everything ticking over. Each locality has its own dedicated group of singers and musicians. There is another small group of people who seem to stray from 'their' patch and 'do the rounds' on a regular basis, visiting all of the clubs in the county, breathing fresh air into them. I just wish that there were MORE younger people in the clubs, we do have one or two youngsters, but the vast majority in the Weymouth/Portland/Dorchester/Langton Herring area are forty+.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: vectis
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 09:10 PM

We are so lucky down here in Sussex. There are several clubs that book guests and survive on a shoestring budget. Performers who are willing to string a line of us together and stay on the road for several nights with us providing accommodation are what keeps us afloat.
It is really difficult to get people out to see new or unknown acts so it is hard work to find the funds to pay them a decant wage. On the other hand the performers need the clubs willing to take risks on unknown acts to become known and, therefore, better paid.
We all walk a tightrope and try furiously to balance the books enough to keep going in order to encourage the next generation of new performers who will become tomorrows stalwarts, stars and well loved performers.
Clubs and performers need each other to survive.
We'd all love another revival :-)

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: selby
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 05:04 AM

We ran a Folk Club for many years and although there was and still is a thriving folk scene in our area we found that people wanted to play in sessions went to see who they wanted at festivals as well as what has been said by other people.
Personaly I think it is a great shame that our tradition has lost it venue's, where performers did their apprentiship.
We recently went to see a young star very good performance etc but something lacking and a fortnight later was entertained by a old star who had learn't is trade in the folk clubs. I think thats what we are losing at the moment.
Keith

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: breezy
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 01:19 PM

I run a folk club, yeah big deal.

I visit clubs and sessions and invite people I hear who if I think are up to it to come and play at the club.
I am also fortunate in organising a 'pub lounge' gig that can accommodate floor spots, then I also run-MC a singaround session where anyone can play.
This is how we have built a sound basis of quality residents and how we have booked some lesser known artistes.
Our audience depends on my judgment.
If I expect the audience to pay I must give them good value in return.

I think the way ahead is to book a Name, and a lesser known performer as a support act plus 2-3 residents per evening.
Unless I know the artist, I would want to hear them perform first.

My major discoveries include: George Papavgeris, singer-songwriter of the highest calibre, whose songs are creeping into the repertoire of among others Martyn W-R
Brad Bradstock for M-Keynes, and the living archive tradition
and Hilary Ward, the 'Linnet from Luton' ex Luton Girl's choir , remember them?
There are others too

Yes there is a place for folk clubs and we must support them and each club must support other clubs too.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: phil h
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 02:17 PM

But aren't 'Folk Clubs' still full of the same people who started them 40 years ago? People who are trapped in time & are just nostalgic for the music that was around when they first got laid, who would as soon sing everly brothers songs as traditional material. Don't folkies under the age of 50 choose to go to sessions & singarounds instead?

Phil

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 02:24 PM

Phil - I think you're right

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: GUEST,returnee
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 02:39 PM

I said it before and i'll say it again - "folk" clubs will have to loosen up and become more welcoming and ACCEPTING to the whims and wiles of younger folk. cos when the older "hard core"(sic) folkies
pass behind the veil, there will be no-one to carry on? the tradition.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: breezy
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 06:10 PM

Phil, ours isnt.
however
There are many performers who are trapped in a 'time warp'
but
Many fine songs have been written since those days and are being written now and they are 'folk-songs' in the true sense of the word.
also
There are many fine folk artistes too.
we dont have to compromise
the younger folk will find it if its good enough
last week we found a couple and the rendition of Lord Bateman was highly recommendable
the singers name?
Dylan
from Hemel Hempstea?d

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: Walking Eagle
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 06:27 PM

Lack of folk clubs may be part of the problem. I think another part is that no one just sings for the fun of it anymore. Also, very few people just have informal jams anymore. These jams could include young folks and experienced folkies could sing young folks songs or make them up as they go. Creativity is what's needed. Young folks will respond if something is provided for them.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: Mr Red
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 06:59 PM

I used to try and make people feel at home at my regular club (of the time) but there is a balance that you can never get exactly right - to appraoch and be friendly or to intrude. Only the people involved know which that is. I erred on the side of bothering - most club members were passive. I was never part of the "organisation" but as a club member I regarded the wellbeing of the club part and parcel - we take-out so we put in.

I think it is more correct to say FC's need us rather than the other way round.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: vectis
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 07:29 PM

The other thing Folk Clubs have definately lost over the last 30 years is
AUDIENCE
clubs are full of performers but very few listeners.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: Bernard
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 09:15 PM

Yup. Performers often make poor listeners!! Unfortunately I have to include myself in that comment... :^/

I'm also involved with the Open Door (see Harryoldham above), and the Railway, too... Singers' Nights are predominantly performers, but Guest Nights are different - the Open Door tends to be the same group of people as Singers' Nights, but the Railway is almost a totally different audience.

Open Door website...

Railway website...

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: Deni-C
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 03:27 AM

Being in a city, we do OK for young performers. We've got an acoustic guitar school around and our festival links with one of their major concerts of the year. We also run a songwriting comp for new folk songs and a few younger ones go in for that. But a lot of the performers who are actually pro standard are out earnng money and if clubs won't pay them, there's stacks of venues and private funcitns that will. Some of our local bands tour abroad too. Thailand, Europe and US being the most recent I can think of.



Best Wishes Deni
Mad Rush

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: Alio
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 05:12 AM

Folk Clubs are struggling round our way also - Saddleworth side of Manchester. Geoff and I attribute it to the vast number of session / singaround clubs where audiences don't have to pay, so they don't like the idea of being charged even £5.

Our Cross Keys is an excellent pub, but I know that Jim Schofield has very low audiences some weeks, even though the guest list is pretty impressive. I ran it for 6 years, and some weeks I was panicking about finding the money to pay the artists - it's no fun to keep having to dip into your own pocket!

I also agree with Harry - the surge of numbers of festivals has also made an impact. We tend to go to more Festivals than folk clubs at some times of the year.

Well, what can we do?????

Ali

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: GUEST,returnee
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 05:55 AM

Well, perhaps it's the ambience - or lack of it.

I don't think there is a "definitive" answer.

Why not have a brainstorming session - if you get 100 suggestions and only one is workable/feasible - it's a jolly good start!

Problem with certain clubs is that it's (usually) all left to the MC to arrange everything, so the obvious answer is to get the members off their (petite) arses and become pro-active!

You never know - change just might be a good thing.

Jim Schofield is a star!

Ret.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 04:57 PM

Down in East Kent you could go to a different folk club every night of the week (if you had the energy). The folk club I attend has been going for 20+ years, moving from pub to pub when the landlord has kicked us out!! We've had the usual peaks and troughs but still carry on and at the moment have a pretty healthy attendance. Financially, we manage by holding 3 singers nights a month followed by a guest night. Of course some members sing the same old songs (I'll admit to that one - can't find the time to learn new ones!) but non-regulars & visitors to the area are always dropping in to add a bit of variety. We also tend to visit other nearby clubs, and their members visit ours - that way we all help each other out so maybe that's the way to survive....

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 04:40 AM

I agree with Mr Red - the clubs need us, rather than the other way around. And I also share "Returnee's" concern - what happens when the old folks, who comprise the majority of attendance, pass on? Finally, I agree with Vectis too - we need more AUDIENCE.

I can't help feeling that we need some sort of affirmative action to increase the size of audiences and to bring in "new blood". And no doubt some of that affirmative action will meet with resistance from the diehards. But if we want another revival, that's what we need to do. After all, revivals by nature represent a degree of discontinuity: something NEW needs to happen.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: Mr Happy
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 05:18 AM

i'm in chester uk.

there's only one surviving folk club in the town, but many sessions & singarounds.

the audience numbers at the folk club have been decreasing greatly both on singers nights & also when they have guests, & this has been the trend over the last 5 yrs or so.

i run a weekly singaround which is usually very well attended, with audience numbers almost always above the fc attendees.

as mine's run as an open & informal gathering, there's no hard & fast rules about musical content- with the major exception that it must all be acoustic, no mikes or amps.

as regards musical content, i find that while 'folk' audiences like to hear stuff either traditional or in the genre,general pub audiences are more attracted to & feel more comfortable with the sort of songs & music that everybody knows.

as a consequence, each weekly gathering is different, with 50's, 60's, 70's etc rock, soul, pop songs, trad & contemporary folk, bluegass, sean nos,other unaccompanied floor singing, & jigs, polkas, marches etc from manifold tunesmiths.

on other nights, me & musical hums go to other local gatherings & this also provides an opportunity for publicising our gathering, so from one week to another, there's often performers & audients travel from near & far to participate & enjoy.

in conclusion, i think some reasons for demise of folk clubs is that
they can be too exclusive & narrow in their content, and as mentioned by others above, the 'prima donna' syndrome can creep in with resident bands, having the effect of alienating audiences & other participants alike.

i think the natural evolution of 'folk' singing & carrying on a tradition of people enjoying singing & making music together must move with the times, & not exclude any 'non folk' people from it.

& that's my 2p worth!

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: Pied Piper
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 09:05 AM

I've said this before and I'll say it again, most of the people I no would rather have there fingers nails extracted than go to a Folk club, this includes a lot of good traditional musicians.
Isn't it better that Traditional music be played in the community not behind closed doors?
I think Phil is right about a lot of clubs.
I think we need to get together and get some of that Lottery and Arts Council Money to help expose people to the Heritage of their own roots music.

All the Best

PP

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: Orac
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 09:51 AM

I agree that too many in folk clubs are stuck in a time warp. There are still too many "singers" (using a word very loosely) who stand up, stick one hand over an ear and go into some strange nasal unintellible voice that would frighten off any budding "folkie" for good. On the other hand there are also too many "singer/songwriters" who write self-induldent crap that bores the arse off any audience. Is it really any wonder that many clubs faulter. In many cases its the organisers of these clubs that set themselves up as the "residents" despite the fact that they are completely tone deaf and wouldnt recognise a song worthy of going to the trouble of learning even if it bit them. These people also seem to attract others just like themselves and just drive away others who cant share their limited taste in "music" .. (again using a term loosely)

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: breezy
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 10:16 AM

What would happen if 'free singarounds' charged attendees per visit.
Then there would be money to pay for pro performers to play.


This would attract audience.

Theres a lot of take and no give.


Sessions are O K but they are insular 'going nowhere' but fun for the participants, with a lot of 'pants'.
Its usually a them and us situation.

Too many below par floor-singers in the name of 'folk' giving 'folk' a bad name and frightening off potential audience.
Not knowing words or in some cases a complete song.
Under-rehearsed, ill-prepared, and apologetic.

Sessions that are 'open to all' should be held behind closed doors and not imposed on the general public.

People will come out for the quality artist, but would you pay to go and hear rubbish

Sessions undermine Folk Clubs

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: Orac
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 10:47 AM

I agree, fun though sessions may be, they only exist for the pleasure of the participants and have little to do with Folk Clubs. Many artists must despare at the floor singers they have to sit though. I really think that club organisers should think hard about what they inflict on a paying audience. If "floor singers" don't come up to a certain standard (including themselves) they should restrict them to "singers nights" ... (again using a term loosely. How on earth can you expect people to cough up good money to sit through an hour of complete dross every time they turn out for a guest night. Professional artists rely on a viable club for their livelihood, they don't need crap floor singers driving away the punters.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: Harry Basnett
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 10:51 AM

As I said before...once a month at the Open Door we have a guest artist and floor-singers...the rest of the month it's a sing-around with everyone who wishes being able to play, sing, join in, whatever, (albeit, behind closed doors) so what are we? a folk club or a session?

Hey-ho.....

Harry.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: Orac
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 11:04 AM

You are a Folk Club. Sessions only play tunes.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: Pied Piper
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 11:13 AM

"exist for the pleasure of the participants" I should bloody well hope so. I would disagree with the use of "only". I know lots of people that enjoy listening to sessions as non-combatants, the idea that because the performers enjoy what they do this excludes an audiences enjoyment is silly.
There are lots of sessions here in the Manchester area that regularly pull in punters, and one of the contributory factors is that they are allowed to have a conversation whilst the music is playing and don't have to show inappropriate reverence for the performers.
Folk clubs are basically middle class ghettos, riddled with obsequious mard arses who'll sit through a bungled amateurish murder of a traditional Ballad and clap the louder for it at the end, in a futile attempt to cover up their imbursement.
This kind of masochism doesn't suite most people and so they stay away
What a surprise.

PP

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: GUEST,noddy
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 11:50 AM

It is not so much that we need Folk Clubs its that they need US.
We are the ones who do or do not go to a club and make it succeed.
No matter how good an act is it will not survive without an audience and.
So get off your bum and go to a club. Or am I preaching to the converted.

why Book a name and bankrupt the club Surely the best policy is to use up and coming acts who dont charge as much are just as talented and entertaining. You can always see the Big Name at a festival.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: jonm
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 12:59 PM

Most teenagers, in my experience, start learning an instrument in order to start a band. Thus the band exists before they are competent. They then go looking for paying gigs as soon as they have a repertoire, because that's part of the dream. There are plenty of music venues who will give a teenage rock band a gig on the strength of a short demo tape, so surely anyone who plays for free must be cr*p - there goes the logic.

Few people play or sing purely for pleasure these days. Those who do need not only to gather in a supportive environment to share the experience but also to encourage others that this sort of thing is fun!

I have been to traditional folk clubs and enjoyed the experience but been certain that I would never bring a non-folky friend to the club. I have been to other clubs with a welcoming atmosphere and an enthusiastic attitude to newcomers and variety. The buzz of the place draws both audience and performers, but the range of music and the corresponding clientele requires the traditional folkies to be more broad-minded. If young newcomers are welcome to play (acoustic)versions of the songs they like, they will also hear more folk music in the same place and may well come to understand what we are all about.

The first time I ever took an acoustic guitar to a folk club, I was sixteen, playing electric guitar in a nascent rock/blues band and so I played four songs, a mix of contemporary rock songs adapted for the acoustic (played pretty competently), traditional material learned off my father (played very badly) and one I had written myself (which was, with hindsight, total crap). The stuff I did in among all the other performers obviously split the audience into "contemporary cr*p" and "nice to hear something different" camps. And one guy came up to me at the end and spent half an hour with me taking my song apart, salvaging the good bits and improving the rest. That was 20 years ago - the guy in question is now a respected songwriter and performer.

Recently, I went to a club (I've been to others in the intervening decades) where, despite arriving with a concertina and a guitar, I was told where to sit and not invited to perform. The organiser had a programme of which of his regulars would sing, despite some of them being dire. He joined in with them randomly, with three chords, loudly and with no sense of fitting the accompaniment to the song, then seemed to share the credit and applause for the performance. It was obvious that some of these performers were singing the same song/s they did every week. I have not and shall not be back.

It appears that the dyed-in-the-wool traditionalists are now running the clubs for the benefit of like-minded individuals but at the expense of new blood and fresh ideas. The folk scene will continue to die out if this continues.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: vectis
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 05:30 PM

Come to my club jonm. Anyone who can play both guitar and concertina is guaranteed a spot: especially if he can play them simultaneously :-)

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: Jazzyjack
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 11:20 PM

Come to Vancouver Island for a visit. There are monthly open stages followed by featured performers at the Nanaimo, Sooke, Brentwood Bay, Deep Cove, Errington, Gabriola, Cowichan and Mill Bay Folk Clubs plus weekly performances at the Victoria Folk Club. And these are all within 150 km of each other- a folk singers paradise.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 08:10 AM

No, Jonm, not all clubs or all folkies are closed-minded, but I agree that there are plenty who are, and so your experience does not surprise me. But it should not deter you.

I don't want to sidetrack the thread with a discussion about retaining the tradition versus opening up to new sounds, but I can name at least three clubs in the area (St Albans, Maidenhead and Herga - a club with a heavy trad reputation) that welcome any new performer; why, they even welcomed some silly twit with an unpronounceable surname with a distinctly Mediterranean culture, and made him one of their own!

There is great folk music being written all the time, and some of it is written "outside" the folk clubs, I know. Off the top of my head, I can think of at least 3 comparatively recent songs of Mark Knopffler that would do any folk club proud, from Sailing to Philadelphia, to Prairie Wedding...and my daughter's boyfriend (himself a rock band member) plays some mean acousting versions of Metallica and Green Day ballads, that I'd just love to get him to sing in one of our clubs. And I will (drag him there). It may not be what he wants to do long term, but I feel the folk clubs are the poorer for not hearing these songs.

So, don't give up. Smile inwardly at stupidity when you come across it, and treasure the good moments and worthwhile acquaintances. There are plenty of the latter to make the effort worthwhile, trust me on that. I may be the wrong side of 50, but I'm on the side of the young'uns, where it matters.

And if you're ever anywhere near the Maidenhead-StAlbans-W.London triangle, let me know. I want to hear you.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: Folkie
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 08:17 AM

Not all folk clubs have crap floor singers. Come and try Cheltenham Folk Club. It's one of the best I've ever been to.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: GUEST,returnee
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 08:33 AM

*jonm* That is my experience too. (was this club in the southwest?)
no don't answer that one!

Mr Happy is on the right track , i would advise anyone in the vicinity to go for a play or sing at one of his sessions,- most enjoyable.

Still leaves the problem of the artist who wishes to earn a living from ""folk"" music.
I know there is certainly one folk club in Wales that receives a grant in order to put on paid guests, perhaps grants are available
in the rest of the UK??? That would take the pressure off organisers to book only "well known" artists and give prospective new faces a bite of the cherry, and a reason to continue playing in the ""folk"" genre.

How does Westhoughton do it? they only ever have guests?

I'll get me coat.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: Steve Benbows protege
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 03:12 AM

El greko i live on the west london triangle. I play with steve (During interval time) down at the Brewery tap on a Friday and Sunday. If you feel like coming down then please do. Leadfingers is a regular.
I find the folk clubs round here too stuffy for my liking. The Cabbage patch is too cliquey and the railway at Teddington the same.   
   I went to the railway with Johnny joyce a couple of years back and we were refused permission to play because we were not regulars. The standard of musicianship was to say the least; bad. I can't understand how people can play for thirty years (plus) and still be crap.
But that is one of the reasons why young people get put off. Folk clubs are cliquey and the proficiency of the artist they self promote is bad.
That is why I stay out of them or go to an acoustic session. I do go however, if there is a high calibre artist who challenges my thought of performance and mainly presentation. By presentation I mean the way the song is arranged, sung, performed etc.
However, that is my personal view.
   With regards.
    Pete.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: alanabit
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 03:36 AM

I remember Hamish Immlach's comment some years ago that many folk clubs were mutual admiration societies. That was always bound to end in disaster. Where is there an audience anywhere that wants to sit and meekly admire committee members narcistically performing for each other? That was always going to kill folk clubs. Hamish complained that after a procession of floor singers, he was put on so late that the audience had to start leaving when he started his set.
The same thing happened to me at one of the British Forces clubs. It was a weekday gig at Güttersloh and I got on for my second set sometime after eleven. The poor sods had to get up at five the following morning! I didn't have a chance and neither did they. It is also worth noting that many of the forces clubs were better run than the folks clubs in the UK. I tend to the view that a folk club is best run by a benevolent dictator. The best I can remember is Chris Smyth at the Cap and Gown in Reading during the seventies. Everyone was welcome. Floor spots were varied (in both quality and style) and the club was run strictly to serve the needs of the audience. That's why it had one.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 04:37 AM

Steve Benbows Protege, I'm sorry that your experiences at the Railway, Teddington and at the Cabbage Patch were not to your liking. I can't believe that you and Johhny Joyce could'nt get on at the Railway simply because you wer'nt "regulars" - it is far more likely that they had more floor singers turn up than they could comfortably get on. Did you turn up a bit late, maybe? However, the standard of musicianship there is pretty low, but then that venue caters to those people who want to make music socially and are not too good at it. You have to accept that. There has to be some place for that level of skill and they do have a right to play.You did the right thing to vote with your feet and to seek out places that match up to your own, higher level, of musicianship. Also, I seriously doubt if anyone there would be aware of who Johnny Joyce is or of his reputation. Sad, but there it is.
As regards the Cabbage Patch,it is currently quite a nice club and if you want to join the clique then you need to go down there and work on cracking it by being friendly. All clubs, however cliquey, will always eventually accept good quality performers, but you do have to WANT to be part of the club. It sounds to me like the place you go to on Sunday nights sounds more fun for you anyway. Onwards and upwards, Good luck!

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: breezy
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 05:34 AM

El Greko goes to St Albans most Fridays,well He hasnt missed one yet!
Sat 5th April he'll -all being well- be at the Blue Anchor in St Albans where we'ld be very happy to let the protege expose himself to us and our regular audience.
Thats fixed then, be there SBP by 8.00 then we'll tell you.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 06:42 AM

That's right, Pete SBP, come along to the Blue Anchor Sat 5 Apr and try us out. If you don't enjoy it, your drinks are on me. If you do enjoy it, I've hooked you and buy your own bl***y drinks ;-)How's that for "friendly" now, can't say fairer eh?

And just in case an army of hopefuls turns up pretending to be SBP for the free drinks - the first one gets the offer, so be early. I'll be the one hiding behind the 12-string guarding my pennies.

Or come to one of the Maidenhead folk club Singers Nights, and the offer stays the same. Maidenhead fc is on Thursdays at the Ferry Inn, Cookham. Come to think of it, there's a Singers night tonight; I'll be there, so come and claim your drink. I' ll be the fat bloke sneaking off for a smoke every 30 mins or so. Or the smooth and sophisticated charmer accompanied by the most beautiful lady north of the South Pole - it all depends on your perspective.

C U there?

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: breezy
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 07:40 AM

Lets here em play first,yes go to maidenhead then El Greko will tell you if the Bluesforyou

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: GUEST,Vince
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 08:13 AM

I'm not a regular 'floor-singer', in fact i'm a definate beginner and i'm 51, but they say its never too late. I was dead nervous as i sing un-acompanied but always wanted to 'av a go' cos i like the songs and love to hear a good audience joining in with a good chorus song or just enjoy the song with me. So as i was invited, i went for it and got a fairly good reception (could've bin politeness i suppose) but as i've been offered the opportunity since.....well who knows. Don't think i'd sing if it was a guest night tho for reasons previously stated unless they were desperate! Tho i understand many of the previous arguments, there must always be room for floor-singers
good or not-so-good aswell as guests. That, in my opinion is what 'folk clubs' are all about! Finally i think regular floor singers on guest nights should still pay the entrance fee! (sorry, i'm sure they all do).

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 08:19 AM

Don't withdraw your previous offer now, breezy, you already invited Pete to come at 8pm on Sat 5 Apr; your belts-and-braces are showing...(he-he!) Auditioning before giving a floorspot - ouch! What a name to have... Also: Maidenhead and other clubs exist in their own right, and have done so for 30+ years longer, they are not there to audition for the Blue...

Pete - breezy is a softie really, once you've bashed him over the head with a skillet a few times. Come along, man, and you'll get a spot.

But you might not get a second spot if you're better than us...;-)

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: phil h
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 08:28 AM

It seems to me that it's the folk who enjoy singing and playing that keep folk music alive not those who try to make a living out of folk (singer songwriters or not). They need folk clubs, sessions and singarounds will do fine for the rest of us.

Phil

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 08:30 AM

Agree, Vince, everyone should pay; and everyone should be allowed a go in a folk club, otherwise the folk club becomes elitist (which is an oxymoron, in my book).

Problems however arise when those who had a go, but were not good enough, later demand regular "goes" and generally expect equal rights with the better singers. This should not be allowed, because we must consider the wishes of the audience; without an audience we are dead in the water...

Unfortunately too many floorsingers don't hold an accurate perception of their own worth, and expect to be given equal merit or even preference because of their longevity, regular appearance, club committee membership, baking prowess etc etc. And that's when the fun starts:-(

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: GUEST,steve benbows protege
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 08:33 AM

Breezy, if El Greko wants to come out with us lot that's down to him NOT you. Also I dont "EXPOSE" myself, Please refrain from such slander. Secondly as in the other thread ( WHICH YOU NEVER ANSWERED!) If i don't drive how are you expecting me to get to your club?
Is the Ferry inn is where Johnny silvo played last year. I am not shure if I am supposed to be working with him this time.
As for an army of me, I seriously doubt it. If I could make it then El Greko I will p.m you and give you a secret password only you and I will know. Also, remember I am 22yrs old. Who can fake that?
As for teddington folk club; John and I were there at the beginning of the evening. Twickenham's cabbage patch I will give a go again.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 08:39 AM

Mmm, partly true, Phil. I agree that it's those who enjoy singing and playing do most to keep folk music alive; but then very few make an actual living off folk music, and the two categories are not exclusive.

But sessions and singarounds are not enough - they tend to be attended by "practitioners" rather than audience. Folk clubs have (and supposedly cater for) audiences. And for me, the audience is key to the survival of folk music - or any music.

Because music is simply a form of communication, and needs both transmitters and receivers. And we could sing our heart out in the desert, but if nobody hears us, no message is passed - the communication lines are cut.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 08:50 AM

Yes, Pete, The Ferry is indeed where Johnny Silvo played last year.
Sorry I'd missed the 22 year old bit; agree, it's hard to fake (though I know a few who try). Me, I'd be happy to fake 40; I guess I have to be content with being %£$ - sorry, keyboard gone funny.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: GUEST,Phil H (at work - no cookie)
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 09:01 AM

OK El Greko maybe I exagerate to make a point but an audience turns the singing/playing into a 'performance' & the performers start not only to rehearse but to 'arrange' the material (& I don't just mean putting theimselves into it). I avoid folk clubs because I don't want to be 'entertained' by the couples - she sings, he plays guitar or worse still he sings & plays guitar & she has a shaky egg so as not to feel left out. Sessions / singarounds are incredibly variable but there is less 'club politics' & nobody says "quiet now lads there's a lady trying to sing here" yeuch.

Phil

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 09:13 AM

I see where you're coming from, Phil (love the shaky egg reference by the way, you had me giggling to myself there), and I understand. Yes, there are far too many club politics and hidden agendas for my liking too, but then that's human too and I generally put up with it, while hopefully not contributing to it.

I have felt the need to "perform" too, generally when there is a "name" guest or when I have a spot at some new (to me) club. But at my regular clubs on singers nights I don't feel that; the other members have been too open and friendly and forgiving of my mistakes in the past for me to feel any pressure. And that's when I enjoy singing most, indeed - when I'm offering the song to friends rather than performing it.

Indeed, at Herga we often find the singers nights are the most enjoyable, precisely because of this freedom. And of course we are blessed with a great set of residents, at least three of them "names" themselves, but when we are together they're "just friends".

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: My guru always said
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 09:19 AM

Hey SBp, shame you can't drive - the St Albans on 5th April is gonna be a good one - maybe a friend could bring you. We're a friendly crowd & try to welcome folks who are friendly to us! Keep cool on thread though, the black & white on the screen can be easily misunderstood :-(

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 10:32 AM

Vin Garbutt didnt drive to play to us and neither will Martin Carthy and Dave L always comes by train.


I say El ,theres Kitty, Johnny, Graeme, Mike Sparks and YOU, thats 5 'names'.
And Tim

And
Singers nights are usually more pleasurable .

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: GUEST,steve benbows protege
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 10:53 AM

If someone can get me there then i will come. Might bring Steve with me. That would shut breezy up. I don't know why he has it in for me?

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 11:08 AM

Vin Garbutt has a roadie

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: My guru always said
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 11:13 AM

SBp: Am certain Breezy doesn't have it in for you & he doesn't always need shutting up, honestly! Sometimes it's easy to rub each other up the wrong way on these threads & Breezy sometimes types faster than he thinks :-)

Breezy: have you forgotten to take those tablets again? I'll bring my scarf *g*

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: GUEST,noddy
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 11:57 AM

According to the photos in the Open Door Folk Club page Haggard and Tight have a Roadie. an Artistic Director and a Fen Shui Consultant with them?????
dont miss their extravaganza this weekend . Lots of good stuff on.
Unfortunately I cant go.

Oh yes back to original topic...What was it again?

Is folk music still trying to fight off the image of Fair Isle jumpers ,fingers in ear and nonny nonny no as though by the younger generation. Or is the gulf between Pop and Folk a lot wider than we care to admit. All theses overlapping acts are just flash in the pan compared to the big picture.
OOps to many cliches there could be a song there.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: John Routledge
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 01:45 PM

This is such a depressing thread. So much of what has been posted is regrettably accurate :0)

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: breezy
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 03:06 PM

please bring the scarf, I like the smell!!

We got enough zimmer - singers as Roy Bailey calls em without any more, really, can he still get it out? of its guitar case.

This thread is not depressing, which makes a change from some evenings
think I'll stay in tonight.

See y'all 2 morrow at the Comfort For Leon Rosselson,its promising to be another quality evening with Paul Scouring pad playing his melodeon to meet and greet, and Josie on the raffle!

Scarf

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: Mr Happy
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 05:04 PM

'course, it all depends how you define what 'folk' is.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: breezy
Date: 23 Mar 03 - 10:04 AM

by the people ,of the people, of what the people do and have done to them and what the people think.
So we need folk clubs cos its the only environment where songs can be listened to in the company of others, and where a writer can hhave his songs heard.
There will be a clutch of new songs this Thurs27th March when the maidenhead Folk Club holds its song competition.
All songs are being performed for the first time.

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 23 Mar 03 - 11:01 AM

Well said, breezy.
The Maidenhead songwriting competition is a biennial event, and this year there are 19 entries. I am aware of at least three Mudcatters who will be competing, and probably more. Although I have never been there before, judging by the quality of some of the 2nd and 3rd runners up of previous competitions, it should be a cracker...

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: breezy
Date: 23 Mar 03 - 01:12 PM

will there be heats?
Are there categories?
Can I have a lift please?
can we hear any of the songs in St Albans?

Subject: RE: Folk Clubs- We need them!
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 05:03 AM

Breezy

Heats - no, unless my sensuous singing raises the temperature; but I have to watch it, blue rinses are susceptible to high temperature.

Lots were drawn last Thursday for the sequence; I don't know anyone else's, 'cos I was down with some minor lurgy, just mine (about 1/3 of the way in, which gives me time to get sozzled afterwards).

Vanessa will be driving, and Tim will be coming too; you're welcome for a lift, then, but be at our place by 7pm

I am sure we can hear several of them at Snollbuns - Hovering Bob's, Mike's, and mine for a start (certainly mine this coming Friday). And we can ask some of the others to come too, sometime.