BS: Bush ist ein lustiger mann . . .

Subject: BS: Bush ist ein lustiger mann . . .
From: KarlMarx
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 11:13 AM

A posting, with much mileage on the internet . . .

Dear President Bush,


Remember back when you were first running for President and you had that interview where you made that joke about the death row inmate who begged you for her life. But then you killed her anyway? Well, some people didn't find that funny, but I found it really funny! I think we sort of have the same sense of humor. It's a little dark, but it's FUNNY, isn't it? Here are some of my favorite jokes of yours:


What I think is really funny is 3,000 cruise missiles being launched into Iraq within the first 48 hours of the war. The idea that you call that "precision bombing," boy, that's funny.


And this is hilarious, the first Gulf War killed 205,500 Iraqis, three-quarters of the dead were civilians, including 74,000 children. More than 100,000 died of postwar adverse health effects. That's so funny. I just look at that line that says "74,000 children" and I'm laughing again, and I bet you're laughing too. Admit it, you're grinning a little. Come on, 74,000 children killed. Do you feel that smile coming on? Yeah.


And you know that's peanuts compared to the can of whoop-ass you're about to unleash on those kids, what do you call it, "Shock and Awe" as in "Awe there just went my baby girl, I'm covered in her blood, awe there just went my legs." See, that's funny.


Now, it's also sort of funny that in the US-Afghan war, the US military killed 3,400 civilians. That's almost equal to the 3,700 civilians killed in the World Trade Center. I admit, it's more of a dry, ironic kind of humor, but come on, killing innocent people to get back at someone for killing innocent people, that's rich. "Killing innocent people is bad, let's go kill innocent people." If someone said that on "Married With Children" it would get a real big laugh.


Now, I know this cracks you up because it cracks me up – the UN sanctions against Iraq, begun by your dad and continued by you, didn't do a thing to Saddam, but they did manage to kill 5,000 children under the age of 5 every month! Every month! 5,000 children dead! It upsets you so much you're launching 3,000 cruise missles and blowing more kids up now. Talk about not leaving a child behind, har, har, har. ("Awe, there goes my mom!")


What's really funny is that Kofi Annan estimates that this new war could swell the number of displaced people in Iraq to 2 million and create a million refugees. A million! It doesn't get any funnier than that! What, are they all gonna have little sticks and bandanas tied up with food in 'em? Oh, that's right, they won't have any food. And the joke's on them, because they didn't even vote for Saddam.


What's really, really funny is that you even use the word "terrorist." Aw, man, you're killing me.


Sincerely,

Toby Barlow

Subject: RE: BS: Bush ist ein lustiger mann . . .
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 11:51 AM

whoa! That is too funny. So funny it makes me cry.
That letter should be sent to Bush if it hasn't yet. I was watching the CBS morning show this morning and they showed an old interview with Bush, before the elections and he was saying, "I think it's wrong to force other countries to be like us" People sure change when they get power don't they.
Thanks for the laugh KarlMarx.
Peace. Rustic

Subject: RE: BS: Bush ist ein lustiger mann . . .
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 11:52 AM

Hey Toby. Are you the same Toby Barlow who wrote this:

the development of a solar infrastructure

Subject: RE: BS: Bush ist ein lustiger mann . . .
From: KarlMarx
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 12:26 PM

Alas, I can not take credit for this letter. I discovered this post at a site entitled http://www.alternet.org/

Subject: RE: BS: Bush ist ein lustiger mann . . .
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 12:45 PM

Ah well. I loved that solar infrastructure piece. I'd like to spread that one around too.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush ist ein lustiger mann . . .
From: Mrrzy
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 10:46 AM

And I thought this was going to be about the Germans making fun of Kennedy's bad German by wearing t-shirts saying things like Ick Bin Ein Amerikaner...

Subject: RE: BS: Bush ist ein lustiger mann . . .
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 06:28 PM

"the first Gulf War killed 205,500 Iraqis, three-quarters of the dead were civilians, including 74,000 children."

KarlMarx you are a liar...

Subject: RE: BS: Bush ist ein lustiger mann . . .
From: KarlMarx
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 06:48 PM

To the guest who accused me of being a liar: I am simply posting a letter that of which I saw on the internet. If you dispute the numbers, you must take up the issue with Mr. Toby Barlow, the original author . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Bush ist ein lustiger mann . . .
From: Troll
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 08:02 PM

If you post a lie, expect flack. Always check the facts. Just because an article agrees with your predjudices, doesn't mean it's true.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Bush ist ein lustiger mann . . .
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 08:10 PM

From what I've seen on a google search no one agrees on what the losses were. The government apparently fired one of its people because of what he might have known about such numbers. Humanitarian groups put the numbers much higher than do military authorities. It does seem to be an agreed point though that 5,000 Iraqi children die each month because of sanctions in place for many years.

Also, if one is going to accuse another of lying, the accuser should cite a source.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Bush ist ein lustiger mann . . .
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 06:51 AM

kat,

Statistics relating to Iraqi Population 1989 to 2003

Iraq's population, as pointed out by yourself has grown:
1989 - 18.1 million
1997 - 21.2 million
2003 - 23.3 million

From 1991 to 31.12.1999 - 1,200,000 deaths reported

2,300 civilian deaths directly attributable to Desert Storm Operations

20,000 deaths in Iraqi military attributable to Desert Storm Operations.

480,000 children dead due to effects of UN Sanctions (5000 per month since sanctions were introduced - 1991 to end 1999. Note, this figure is NOT verified). It should also be noted that Saddam Hussein could have caused those UN sanctions to be lifted at any time during this period had he complied with UNSC Resolutions, as he agreed to do in 1991.

717,700 Adult deaths in Iraq since 1991 to end of 1999, not directly attributable to Desert Storm. The cause of these deaths will range from:

Natural causes;

Shia fatalities relating to the time that Saddam put down their revolt after Desert Storm;

Kurdish fatalities in conflicts with Saddam and other Kurds;

Executions of criminal and political prisoners;

Female relatives killed by male relatives in the name of honour (perfectly allowable under a 1990 decree issued by Saddam and the boys, on paper the decree allowing this practice was repealled in 1991, another report says 1997, at a UN Human Rights conference held in Cuba in 2000 the UN representative responsible for monitoring human rights violations in Iraq stated in his report to the conference that this practice continues in Iraq to date);

Road traffic accidents & other accidental deaths;

Suicides;

Women accused of prostitution and summarily executed (public beheading) without recourse to any judicial process;

US & UK bombing related to No-Fly zone incidents and Desert Fox.

So in the time frame being discussed (1991 to 1999) the Iraqi population grew from 18.88 million to 21.9 million - or by 3.02 million, around 17%, despite 5.48% of the population dying during the same period. The population figures do not include the hundreds of thousands of Iraqi's who have fled the country to escape from Saddam Hussein - their countries of refuge include Iran, Jordan, Turkey and various European countries.

I would like to see Mr Barlow's sources - During the final stages of the "Desert Storm" campaign some US military spokesmen estimated some very high casualty figures. These estimates however proved to be incorrect. They related to Iraqi military losses, not civilian, at the cessation of hostilities the numbers given by the Iraqi Order of Battle at commencement of "Desert Shield" were cross referenced with the Iraqi Order of Battle at the end of hostilities. The difference was then adjusted by deducting the number of prisoners taken - the remainder represents the true casualty figures, although amongst this number there will be those who successfully deserted.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush ist ein lustiger mann . . .
From: Amos
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 10:02 AM

As to the "Deaths caused by sanctions", how is it to be understood that the nation of Iraq cannot support itself? Prior to the industrial revolution, it survived (as far as food and water and medicine) as well as any other third world nation. It has plenty of energy, far exceeding its requirements. The Tigris and Euphrates both run through the country. What is all this? How is it these sanctions are said to be causing deaths, exactly? Honestly, I don't get it. IS this a description of ground turh, or a stance?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush ist ein lustiger mann . . .
From: Bagpuss
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 11:27 AM

It's about the number of deaths that would have been prevented if sanctions were not in place. So many medicines did not reach those who needed them, due to snactions and therefore people died that wouldn't have died without sanctions. And I believe a lot more dirty water being drunk because chemicals needed in water purification are withheld. And it is a silly argument to say that people survived before the industrial revolution, because prior to the industrial revolution there was a much higher mortality rate than today - ie many people *didn't* survive. And maybe in byegone days, most countries had a strong agricultural base, so that the country could survive on what it produced, but in these days of free trade countries are encouraged to produce only what they are best and cheapest at producing and import the rest from elsewhere. Under these circumstances, the agricultural skills, personnel and even land are lost and you can't just suddenly go back to being self sufficient.

I'm writing this off the top of my head, but I am sure their are many sources (eg UNICEF) can give you a more detailed breakdown of the causes of these deaths and the reasons for their occurrence.

bagpuss

Subject: RE: BS: Bush ist ein lustiger mann . . .
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 03:56 AM

Bagpuss,

As I pointed out in my post above, those sanctions could have been lifted at any time. All Saddam Hussein had to do was comply with UNSC Resolutions - so the cause of those deaths should probably have been better described as deaths due to Saddam Hussein's non-cooperation and not due solely to UN Sanctions.

Another factor, regarding water and food. When Saddam went on the rampage against the Shia muslems in southern Iraq after the end of "Desert Storm", he deliberately set about draining the marshlands of southern Iraq to drive the Ma'dan off their land. What water he could not drain, he poisoned. The drainage schemes and depopulation resulted in the loss to Iraq of a fishing industry (traditionally Ma'dan) that supplied 60,000 tons of fish a year.

Thank you Amos for reminding me that in the evolution of mankind, it was in the area of the Tigris and Euphrates basin that mankind took its first steps from being solely "hunter-gatherers" to developing "agrarian" society.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush ist ein lustiger mann . . .
From: Wolfgang
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 07:04 AM

Effect of sanctions (for me the first time I see what I consider an honest attempt to scrutinise the data and their origin)

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Bush ist ein lustiger mann . . .
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 07:22 AM

Thanks Wolfgang, very interesting article.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush ist ein lustiger mann . . .
From: Bagpuss
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 07:28 AM

I wasn't addressing the question of blame in the sanctions issue - merely attempting to answer Amos' question about how sanctions can have a negative effect on the population, even though the country has been self sufficient in the past.

But while we are on the subject - of course the sanctions could have been lifted if saddam had complied. But the very fact that they never were meant that they were hitting the wrong target, and I believe should have been revised on the grounds that the effects were being felt by innocent people (regardless of whose fault it was). We all know Saddam is a bad man, that doesn't absolve us of our responsibility to choose our actions to avoid harming, directly or indirectly, innocent people.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush ist ein lustiger mann . . .
From: KarlMarx
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 08:38 AM

I must agree with Bagpuss. The people of Iraq have suffered terribly over the last twenty-five years. They were cannon-fodder for Saddam's war against Iran, in which, according to Gabriel Kolko's study, 370,000 people died - 262,000 Iranians and 108,000 Iraqis (though the Iranians claim 800,000 dead). The Iraqi war effort was supported in large part by the United States, who had nothing to say when Saddam was launching chemical weapons assaults against Iran. Then the Kurds, who have repeatedly rebelled against Baghdad, seeking greater autonomy, suffered horrendous chemical attacks from Saddam's forces. Many Iraqi soldiers and civilians died in the second Gulf War, though casualty figures have never been firmly ascertained, in part due to Saddam keeping that information from the UN, as well as due to the news blackouts that then Secretary of Defense Dick Cheney ordered, because he argued that there must not be a repeat of the "rogue news reports which were rife during the earlier Vietnam War," which eventually swayed public opinion against that conflict. Norman Solomon writes of this issue in his excellent Target Iraq - What the News Media Didn't Tell You. Many more die even today, due to disease and malnutrition (children and the elderly being most vulnerable). The water and electrical systems of Iraq were destroyed by allied bombs in 1991, and are still in extreme disrepair. Also, the effects of DU (depleted uranium) shells are having a deleterious effect upon the people of Iraq, (as well as the people of Kosovo and Serbia, who experienced NATO air attacks in 1999). The UN sanctions did not harm Saddam, but have continued to injure the civilians of Iraq. Both Saddam and the nations who have called for continued sanctions - principally the United States and the United Kingdom - have equal responsibility for the humanitarian crisis that exists in Iraq today. My only hope is that people of Iraq will be spared too much more suffering, as it seems that the war is now just hours away . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Bush ist ein lustiger mann . . .
From: Wolfgang
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 08:48 AM

For Germany I can say that it is often the very same people who have been for the UN sanctions against South Africa and are now against the sanctions against Iraq (and vice versa, of course). Then, people coming more from the political right said that the sanctions only affected the poor black people and the pro-sanctions people (then from the political left) said the sooner the regime collapses the better for the poor people and that they therefore supported the sanctions.

Am I too cynical when I think that the general political stance is the main reason why people are in a certain situation pro or contra sanctions and that all the talk about human lives is mainly propaganda?

Sanctions are one of the very few weapons of the UN. I personally prefer a strong UN to a weak UN. A general stance against sanctions helps in the long run Bush's politics of weakening the UN.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Bush ist ein lustiger mann . . .
From: Bagpuss
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 09:07 AM

I think sanctions are a difficult tool to control. It depends on what you prohibit and how that affects the particular country concerned. If your sanctions are placing too much burden on the innocent people of the country, you have to think again about how they are implemented, and try to target them better against the ruling elite.

In the case of SA, I would say that the main effect of the sanctions was to raise the profile of the situation, and in the end it was the raised public profile that changed the situation.

Bagpuss

Subject: RE: BS: Bush ist ein lustiger mann . . .
From: KarlMarx
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 09:17 AM

I understand your argument, Wolfgang. I agree with you that a strong UN is important and essential, as a brake to unilateralism (though it has thus-far failed to curb Bush's abrogation of broad international consensus). But I think that sanctions, by their very nature, do target civil populations. There are those who take a cynical view that sanctions will provoke the people to rise up against their oppressors. How often have sanctions accomplished this goal? I am not sure. What are the alternatives to sanctions? Again, I am not sure. But the failure of the sanctions in Iraq must give us all pause . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Bush ist ein lustiger mann . . .
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 09:20 AM

KarlMarx: I would advise you to read the article linked in Wolfgang's post above.

1. "The Iraqi war effort was supported in large part by the United States,"

Got anything that substantiates this statement. Support from the USA was minimal and amounted to provision of intelligence. Check out what support Iraq received from France, Russia and China on the otherhand and then tell me who supported who in the large part. The Iran-Contra scandal was over USA supplying weapons to Iran during the same conflict - that was in the form of military hard-ware.

2. "...who had nothing to say when Saddam was launching chemical weapons assaults against Iran. Then the Kurds, who have repeatedly rebelled against Baghdad, seeking greater autonomy, suffered horrendous chemical attacks from Saddam's forces."

Condemnation at the time was universal, unfortunately this was via the UN so, as usual, nothing was done about it.

3. "Many Iraqi soldiers and civilians died in the second Gulf War, though casualty figures have never been firmly ascertained,"

20,000 military and 2,300 civilians.

4. Saddam spurned the food-for-oil programme for six years

5. As Saddam's Regime does not let UN humanitarian agencies operate inside Iraq (and never has) distribution of the food aid is through the Ba'athist regime. Once it arrives in Iraq where it goes is anybody's guess - but the Marsh Arabs around Basra aren't getting much of it.

6. "Both Saddam and the nations who have called for continued sanctions - principally the United States and the United Kingdom - have equal responsibility for the humanitarian crisis that exists in Iraq today."

The UN collectively imposed the sanctions and maintained them.

Saddam can't fix water treatment plants, because of sanctions - but he can import 382 rocket motors inspite of sanctions - the problems of the Iraqi people lie firmly at the door of Saddam Hussein and his order of priorities - unfortunately the Iraqi people have never featured as being one of Saddam's priorities.

7. "My only hope is that people of Iraq will be spared too much more suffering, as it seems that the war is now just hours away . . ."

The anti-war-peace-at-all-costs movement have illustrated clearly that they do not give a flying fig about the Iraqi people, so your statement, quoted above, amounts to nothing more than crocodile tears.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush ist ein lustiger mann . . .
From: Bagpuss
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 09:29 AM

"The anti-war-peace-at-all-costs movement have illustrated clearly that they do not give a flying fig about the Iraqi people, so your statement, quoted above, amounts to nothing more than crocodile tears."

Just an observation, but the people i know involved in anti war movement are the same ones who have been involved with human rights issues for decades. I know very few people (though there are some) who have been involved with these human rights causes who are supporting this war. The vast majority of anti war activists are hugely concerned with the well being not only of the people of Iraq, but also of all the other countries with atrocious human rights records who are happily tolerated and often supported by our lovely democratic governments. They are also concerned with the wider consequences of allowing the US to make unilateral decisions about who it can attack, and the future suffering of those who happen to be in the way. Although there are some people who have been persuaded by the human right aspect for going to war, the human rights of the people of iraq is only a pretext for war and is being used in a hugely selective manor.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush ist ein lustiger mann . . .
From: Bagpuss
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 09:31 AM

or even manner...

Subject: RE: BS: Bush ist ein lustiger mann . . .
From: KarlMarx
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 10:20 AM

A few points of clarification: the Russians and the French called for the end to sanctions against Iraq, but both the United Kingdom and the United States threatened vetos. Also, again citing Gabriel Kolko's excellent scholarship, the United States not only provided the Iraqis intelligence data, but also weapons and munitions. The US also helped Iran (through the so-called "arms for hostages" fiasco of the Reagan era, as well as CIA intelligence data) to prolong the war, in hopes of destabilizing the Iranian regime through bloody attrition.
   As far as the casualty estimates (I have seen those numbers, and many journalists and ground soldiers who were in Kuwait and Iraq at the time dispute these figures), I will include a portion of an article by Patrick J. Sloyan, which should cause serious doubts as to the veracity of official estimates, particularly if they come from the victorious governments, who certainly have reasons to underestimate these statistics . . .

"Bodies? What Bodies?"

by Patrick J. Sloyan,
November 25, 2002

Leon Daniel, as did others who reported from Vietnam during the 1960s, knew about war and death. So he was puzzled by the lack of corpses at the tip of the Neutral Zone between Saudi Arabia and Iraq on Feb. 25, 1991. Clearly there had been plenty of killing. The 1st Infantry Division (Mechanized) had smashed through the defensive front-line of Saddam Hussein's army the day before, Feb. 24, the opening of the Desert Storm ground war to retake Kuwait. Daniel, representing United Press International, was part of a press pool held back from witnessing the assault on 8,000 Iraqi defenders. "They wouldn't let us see anything," said Daniel, who had seen about everything as a combat correspondent.


The artillery barrage alone was enough to cause a slaughter. A 30-minute bombardment by howitzers and multiple-launch rockets scattering thousands of tiny bomblets preceded the attack by 8,400 American soldiers riding in 3,000 M1A2 Abrams main battle tanks, Bradley fighting vehicles, Humvees, armored personnel carriers and other vehicles.


It wasn't until late in the afternoon of Feb. 25 that the press pool was permitted to see where the attack occurred. There were groups of Iraqi prisoners. About 2,000 had surrendered. But there were no bodies, no stench of feces that hovers on a battlefield, no blood stains, no bits of human beings. "You get a little firefight in Vietnam and the bodies would be stacked up like cordwood," Daniel said. Finally, Daniel found the Division public affairs officer, an Army major.


"Where the hell are all the bodies?" Daniel said.


"What bodies?" the officer replied.


Daniel and the rest of the world would not find out until months later why the dead had vanished. Thousands of Iraqi soldiers, some of them alive and firing their weapons from World War I-style trenches, were buried by plows mounted on Abrams main battle tanks. The Abrams flanked the trench lines so that tons of sand from the plow spoil funneled into the trenches. Just behind the tanks, actually straddling the trench line, came M2 Bradleys pumping 7.62mm machine gun bullets into the Iraqi troops.


"I came through right after the lead company," said Army Col. Anthony Moreno, who commanded the lead brigade during the 1st Mech's assault. "What you saw was a bunch of buried trenches with people's arms and legs sticking out of them. For all I know, we could have killed thousands."


A thinner line of trenches on Moreno's left flank was attacked by the 1st Brigade commanded by Col. Lon Maggart. He estimated his troops buried about 650 Iraqi soldiers. Darkness halted the attack on the Iraqi trench line. By the next day, the 3rd Brigade joined in the grisly innovation. "A lot of people were killed,"' said Col. David Weisman, the unit commander.


One reason there was no trace of what happened in the Neutral Zone on those two days were the ACEs. It stands for Armored Combat Earth movers and they came behind the armored burial brigade leveling the ground and smoothing away projecting Iraqi arms, legs and equipment.

Is this the stuff of which crocodile tears are made . . . ?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush ist ein lustiger mann . . .
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 11:31 AM

Iraqi casualty figures were issued from:

Iraqi Order of battle before the start
Iraqi Order of battle on cessation of hostilities
The number of prisoners taken

The campaign lasted approximately 100 hours

It is a bit more factual that "For all I know", or "I estimate that"

Subject: RE: BS: Bush ist ein lustiger mann . . .
From: KarlMarx
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 11:46 AM

Perhaps, but, those people were there. They know the grim reality of combat. And their descriptions and impressions of the battle sites are a lot more compelling than the dry figures that are oft-times bandied about as reasons for, or against, going to war . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Bush ist ein lustiger mann . . .
From: Wolfgang
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 03:09 PM

World wide poll shows: America'sa image erodes

Well, this is of course a pre-war deep, but I guess some of it will remain for long after the war.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Bush ist ein lustiger mann . . .
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 09:12 AM

KarlMarx,

Your point is well taken and from personal experience, what you say with regard to those who know the grim reality of combat, I have never yet met any serviceman, or woman, who was eager to go to war.

What I do object to is where things like casualty figures based on comments prefixed by such as "For all I know" or "I estimate that" are taken as being factual in order to prove a particular point. Instead of actual figures resulting from factual evidence gathered after cessation of hostilities.