BS: France

Subject: BS: France
From: GUEST,Freedom Toast With Vermont Maple Syrup
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 09:17 AM

France is the only country that ever lost two wars to Italians. The French have gotten the surrender business down to a science. To save time, they figured out a way to surrender even before a shot is fired. Nobody ever aimed even a bow and arrow at Paris but the Germans looked like they were going to do it and the French immediately gave up the city. The last French general who won any wars was Napoleon, but he was not a Frenchman, he was a Corsican. The first Muslims to ever defeat a western army since the Crusades were the Algerians, who kicked the French out of their country. The only war France ever won was the French Revolution and that's because they were fighting against themselves.

In the Second World War, when the Americans liberated Paris it was a culture shock to French women finally to be sleeping with men who didn't call them "Fraulein." We all remember that the French shaved the hair off women who had slept with the German occupiers, but they had to stop the hair cuts since the country was about to go into the history books as being the only nation of bald-headed women.

With or without the French, America will quickly conquer Iraq. The French are undoubtedly concerned that when the fighting is over, and all the missiles and all the other weapons that the Iraqis said do not exist show up, they probably will have "Made in France" stamped all over them.


Americans should boycott French products. The fact is, because of French cowardice the lives of American soldiers are now at greater risk. There are many items that we as Americans could do without because of their French origin. The reason the French invented perfume was that they stink, but other countries also make colognes. We all ought to walk by the counters selling Christian Dior, Chanel and Cartier. We should not take Club Med vacations nor go anywhere on Air France.

We have been indoctrinated into believing that anything with a French name has some special mystique. If you take the same garment and instead of the label saying Christian Dior, it says Hymie Lipschutz, nobody would buy it. In fact, they would probably cut off the label. Evian water is basically only as good as tap water. If you put bubbles in it, you would have seltzer, but nobody would drink it with that name. If it were called "Seltzier," seltzer would become a major hit.

Subject: RE: BS: France
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 09:19 AM

you're a fucking idiot

Subject: RE: BS: France
From: GUEST,Big Mack Sennett
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 09:24 AM

Quick! Call the Keystone Kops, somebody stole Greg's sense of humor.

Subject: RE: BS: France
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 09:26 AM

Apparently the people who were resonsible for stalling the diplomatic process have now said that if Saddam Hussein uses chemical or biological weapons against US and UK forces - they will join the coalition and send troops - That's big of them

I always said that if this issue goes live, the French will scramble around like crazy in an attempt to jump on the band-wagon. On this occasion they should be told in no uncertain terms to bugger off.

Subject: RE: BS: France
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 09:31 AM

Greg, in this case, I have to disagree with you. I'm sorry, as we are in general agreement in most cases but here, no. I would say that this guy is a Complete ass and a total fucking idiot.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: France
From: GUEST,Inspector Clouseau
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 09:38 AM

I found Greg's sense of humor. It was in a mushroom patch outside of the city. Spaw's was there too.

Subject: RE: BS: France
From: Mark Clark
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 09:44 AM

I'm so proud of the French I ordered an expensive French wine with dinner in NYC last week just in their honor.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: France
From: Kim C
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 09:45 AM

J'aime Francais.

Subject: RE: BS: France
From: Dead Horse
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 09:46 AM

I could say quite a lot in defence of the French, but I wont bother, as it will only be seen as an attack on other nations.
If the USA & UK believe they are justified, then they will go ahead on their own. They certainly are not being assisted by the bigotry shown by the vocal minority of jingoistic idiots that think their voice counts for anything in this world.
I hope that history will prove we did the right thing, whatever that may turn out to be.

Subject: RE: BS: France
From: curmudgeon
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 10:18 AM

Prior to WWI, what we call'French toast" was known as "German toast."

Vermont is French for green mountain.

And rather than judge a people on the basis of bellicosity, consider Voltaire, Rousseau, Diderot, Descartes, Moliere, Dumas, Hugo, Verne, Zola, Lumiere, Melies, Monet, Manet, Gauguin, Baudelaire, Rimbaud, Gide, Renoir, Toulouse-Lautrec, Sartre, Camus, Truffaut, Deneuve, Bardot, Depardieu, et al.

And I do believe that Spaw and Greg are being to kind to the instigator of this thread. Had its guesticular polemic been directed toward members of a race or religion, it would not have seen the light of a monitor.

Vive la France -- Tom

Subject: RE: BS: France
From: KarlMarx
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 10:24 AM

Perhaps the 900,000 casualties at Verdun, in 1916 - counting both French and German youngsters - should give rest to the charge of French cowardice . . .

Subject: RE: BS: France
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 10:25 AM

And I do believe that Spaw and Greg are being to kind to the instigator of this thread. Had its guesticular polemic been directed toward members of a race or religion, it would not have seen the light of a monitor.

Obviously, you have a short memory about what sees the light of a monitor at Mudcat.

thread.cfm?threadid=33702

Subject: RE: BS: France
From: Mrrzy
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 10:30 AM

Vive la France! Nobody else has the high moral ground now!

Subject: RE: BS: France
From: Beccy
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 10:36 AM

curmudgeon- Rousseau was a boob. His major accomplishment was to send loads of noble folk sobbing into the woods and make people summon nervous afflictions on command. The rest of your list is pretty good, though...

Beccy

Subject: RE: BS: France
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 10:37 AM

Its even worse than that, Tom. This whole anti-France hysteria is etirely bogus and based on a BuShite Junta lie.

France never maintained, and does not now maintain, that it would unconditionally veto the use of force against Iraq, only that it would do so if a resolution was presented before the inspectors were allowed to complete their work and before peaceful options were exhausted.

Can we add the BuShites to the "lying sack of shit" thread?

Subject: RE: BS: France
From: KarlMarx
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 10:49 AM

I can't agree that France is on any high moral plateau for opposing an attack upon Iraq, though I do agree France was right in doing so, but for a different reason. Unfortunately, the French do have a poor track record in international affairs, as the terrible wars in Algeria and Indochina demonstrate. They also shared much of the blame for the outbreak of World War One, along with the other nations who engaged in that horrendous struggle, as well as for the harsh peace at Versailles, that allowed, in part, the Nazis to come to power in Germany. But I believe that it is precisely this track record that has given impetus to the people of France, as well as Germany, to oppose a war at this time in Iraq. Both France and Germany know what price unilateralism, projected on the point of military adventurism, brings . . .

Subject: RE: BS: France
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 10:52 AM

Dear Karl Marx;

It is not that I do not respect the French, I do. They have suffered greatly from war and perhaps may be credited with having an understanding of its horrors that Americans, fortunately, have been spared. However, you facts regarding Verdun are way off. The Majority of caualties were British(and her colonies, especially Canada).

Subject: RE: BS: France
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 10:54 AM

By gar, you guys get my dander up some good eh? Tabarnack, you Henglish always be wondrin' why we French Canadian trappers are always mad eh? Well, now you know!

Stop callin' us names like "Freedom" Canadians, and stop stealin' our delicacies like Poutine with "Freedom Fries"!

You want rid of dat Sadam feller? Just put him in a dogsled and send him up to me. I'll skin him like a beaver! (shut up Spaw)

Jaques Le RubberBoot

The Mad Trapper with the outdoor crapper

Subject: RE: BS: France
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 11:04 AM

And I do believe that Spaw and Greg are being to kind to the instigator of this thread. Had its guesticular polemic been directed toward members of a race or religion, it would not have seen the light of a monitor.

Hey Curmudgeon, I guess it's perfectly all right to bash America at Mudcat, but not sacred France. Check out this CURRENT thread if the Jewish jokes weren't enough for you.

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=57719

Subject: RE: BS: France
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 11:05 AM

thread.cfm?threadid=57719

Subject: RE: BS: France
From: KarlMarx
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 11:08 AM

Dear guest - the battle of Verdun was fought between the French and the Germans, beginning on 21 February, 1916, and ending in December, 1916, as the French poilu recaptured the last forts taken by the Germans in their earlier assaults. The French lost half a million men, the Germans, around 400,000. The French and German soldiers suffered constant bombardments - as many as 40 million artillery rounds had been fired - along with frequent attacks with poisonous gas. A frightful spectacle. Anyway, any good general history of The Great War will give you these facts. I, incidently, taught classes in the world wars in college . . .

Subject: RE: BS: France
From: curmudgeon
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 11:19 AM

Guest -- i checked out the two threads you posted; they were about JOKES!
There was not one iota of humor in the opening salvo of this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: France
From: GUEST,Lenin
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 11:21 AM

As usual, Marx plays loose with the facts and figures.

Not to belittle the losses on both sides, Marx greatly exagerates. The true figues are available here.

http://www.war1418.com/battleverdun/slachtoffers.htm

Subject: RE: BS: France
From: GUEST,Freedom fries with my Big Mac
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 11:28 AM

Guest -- i checked out the two threads you posted; they were about JOKES!

Oh yeah, Mudacatters have such a great and funny sense of humor about Americans or Jews. There are some great ones...

You can always tell when you're in a Jewish neighbourhood - padlocks on the dustbins, and toilet paper hung out to dry...

The opening post in this thread was satire. To create satire, you take a kernel of truth and create an exageration. Try Humor 101 at your local junior college.

Subject: RE: BS: France
From: beadie
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 11:36 AM

The US has lined up this impressive list of allies to prosecute the war in Iraq:

Afghanistan,         Albania,
Australia,         Azerbaijan,
Colombia,         Czech Republic,
Denmark,         El Salvador,
Eritrea,         Estonia,
Ethiopia,         Georgia,
Hungary,         Iceland,
Italy,                Japan (post-conflict only),
South Korea,         Latvia,
Lithuania,         Macedonia,
Netherlands,         Nicaragua,
Philippines,         Poland,
Romania,         Slovakia,
Spain,                Turkey,
United Kingdom, Uzbekistan.

Aside from the Brits, the Aussies and the South Koreans, who among these have the reputation that our GUEST seems to be looking for? The Spanish, fer cryin out loud, haven't won anything since before theit armada met up with Sir Fracis Drake. Hell, they even needed help to win their own civil war!

Some of these nations were barely in existence at the time of the last Gulf Go Around. Others have a history of fearsome prowess in war, only that it was 3 and a half millennia ago (Macedonia).

Subject: RE: BS: France
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 11:38 AM

Isn't this sort of stuff called having an inferiority complex?

We might perhaps expect it from the USA, since it must be irritating for a hyperpower to have any kind of non-conmpiance - but the sickening thing is that now the politicians in tbe UK have now joined in, trying to use France as a scapegoat, because the French Government did what it had said it would do all along (unlike the UK government) - along it would appear with most of the rest of the Secutrity Council, refused to go along with stopping the inspections and with rushing into war to suit Washington's timetable.

When in trouble, play the xenophobic card, as so many times before.

Subject: RE: BS: France
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 11:44 AM

Oh, it's satire....humor.......Geez, I completely missed it somehow...........Say, if it's humor, why not send it to maybe the Montreal Gazette or somebody like that? I'm sure they'd get it!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: France
From: KarlMarx
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 11:59 AM

My figures are from, in part, some reputable historians of The Great War: Churchill, Horne, Marshall, et al. As for playing loose with the figures, you do not know me well enough to make such a personal supposition. But I do find it interesting that people argue casualty figures, as if 337,000 odd here, as opposed to 500,000 there, is not so bad. What is the point? Does that make war more palatable, that there were only 337,000 odd dead, wounded, missing, as opposed to half a million . . . ?

Subject: RE: BS: France
From: artbrooks
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 12:06 PM

I agree with 'Spaw, and will add that the original poster, and his/her/its return with different names, is a troll. Don't feed the delusional bugger.

Subject: RE: BS: France
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 01:26 PM

I've never particularly liked the french or at least most the ones I have known but I totally understand their not supporting the imminent conflict - most of this country don't support it either but Blair won't listen to us so why should we expect him to listen to the French!

Subject: RE: BS: France
From: X
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 01:41 PM

...The ladies in France don't wear any pants....

Subject: RE: BS: France
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 02:04 PM

That kind of stuff about casualty figures in the Great War is very reminsicent of the type of thing Holocaust deniers go in for.

Those who sneer at the French for being defeated in 1940 generally seem to forget that the Channel (and the Atlantic for that matter) come in very handy in those kinds of circumstances.

Subject: RE: BS: France
From: Wolfgang
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 02:48 PM

That kind of stuff about casualty figures in the Great War is very reminsicent of the type of thing Holocaust deniers go in for.

This is the second time I read this extremely unfair guilt-by-comparison argument from you, McGrath, though you thinly disguise it by a qualifier like 'reminiscent'.

You should be able to see a huge difference between a scholarly debate among historians about casualty numbers (in the holocaust debate, the numbers of Jews killed I have seen in serious debates vary between 4.5 and 6 million) and a total denial of casualties. The equivalent would be that someone tries to tell that no more people died in the battle of Verdun than can be expected among young people exercising a couple of months in fresh air.

If you don't like discussions about casualty numbers that's fine but please keep your arguments in proportion.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: France
From: DougR
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 03:22 PM

Greg F. I assume you mean "before the inspectors were finished" (according to when the French believed that to be the case)and before peaceful options were exhausted (again from the POV of the French).

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: France
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 03:33 PM

No guilt by comparison intended - just another way of making the point that Karl Marx made there - "But I do find it interesting that people argue casualty figures, as if 337,000 odd here, as opposed to 500,000 there, is not so bad. What is the point? Does that make war more palatable, that there were only 337,000 odd dead, wounded, missing, as opposed to half a million . . . ? "

Some of the people who try to play down the Holocaust are subtle enough not to try to deny that there were deaths, but rely instead on trying to whittle down the figures. And yes, there is a valid historical place for trying to get accurate figures, rather than treating a guesstimate as untoucheable, and that is somethimg very different.

The point is, the detailed figures in themselves are a secondary thing, and don't alter the horror of what happned. And that goes for catastrophes like Verdun as well.

Subject: RE: BS: France
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 03:41 PM

No, Dougie, I meant precisely what I said, not your skewed re-interpretation of what you thought you'd like to pretend that I said.

But for the benefit of clearing up any possible (intentional?) misunderstanding: it is from the point of view of the United Nations and that of most of the rest of the nations and peoples of the world.

Subject: RE: BS: France
From: Wolfgang
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 03:46 PM

You did use the words 'holocaust deniers' which I have yet seen only used for those (Zundel etc.) who claim that there wasn't a holocaust at all.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: France
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 03:54 PM

I'm pretty sure I've seen it for the ones who downsize the figures and imply that that makes all the difference. I think David Irving would come into that category.

Subject: RE: BS: France
From: Troll
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 04:46 PM

Beadie, I think that you will find that Lithuania once ruled a Grand Duchy that stretched from the Baltic to the Black Sea. The Netherlands had a fleet that ruled the sea and that once kicked the bejeezus out of the British fleet. Turkey is what is left of the Ottoman Empire that ruled from the Med to the Caspian. The Polish cavalry charged German tanks with lances during WWII. They knew that they would die but they had to try. The Polish Air Force flew with the RAF and racked up a pretty good score. The Hungarians faced the Russian tanks in "58 with rifles and Molotov Cocktails.
I could go on but I think you may be starting to get the idea. Our Allies are not the bunch of losers you seem to think they are.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: France
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 05:24 PM

The Hungarian Uprising was 1956, not 1958.

What does "Japan (post-conflict only)" - what's a post conflict ally? A new one on me.

One South American country, and two Central American...An impressive line-up of absentees in that list. Including almost all the Security Council, apart from the UK, the USA and Spain. No wonder they didn't risk putting that second resolution to the vote.

I'm puzzled why on Earth there should be all the onus against France? The suggestion appears to be that gratitude for World War II somehow come into it. I mean, if it was a question of helping America repel an attack, fair enough, it isn't.

The idea that gratitude should oblige you to help the person you are grateful to when they are engaged in attacking some third party seems highly questionable. You don't show your gratitude by helping your friends commit what you believe to be a terrible mistake.

Subject: RE: BS: France
From: KarlMarx
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 06:12 PM

Goodness gracious! From the battle casualties of Verdun to the numbers of victims of the Holocaust! These discussions certainly make interestng turns. McGrath makes a good point about casualty figures, though. Whether military or civilian deaths in war, or the victims of genocide, mortal statistics have their political and social uses. The 337,000 casualties attributed to the French Army during the Battle of Verdun was part of the official history of the war that was published in 1936. Churchill, in his "The World Crisis," set the number at 469,000. But 150,000 more bodies and body parts, as gruesome as it is to recount, were found after the battle, and indeed, up to the present day, causing historians to revise upwardly the numbers of dead and injured at Verdun towards the 500,000 mark. The bodies were interred in a vast Ossuaire at the site, as recounted in Horne, The Price of Glory. Horne suggests that the French High Command had it in its best interests, as well as that of the government to whom it served, to keep the reported casualties as low as possible during the war. Civilian and Poilu morale depended upon it. The French Army mutiny of 1917, brought on in part by the murderous Nivelle Offensive that cost France 120,000 casualties, demonstrated that the wasteful blood-letting of the war could spark active rebellion by the troops. The Germans, by the middle of the war a military dictatorship under the rule of Hindenburg and Ludendorff - with the Kaiser a useful figurehead - had somewhat similar concerns, though not to the degree of the French . . .

Subject: RE: BS: France
From: SINSULL
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 06:33 PM

I respect the French for having the courage to disagree with the US, or at least the President of the US. I do not believe that the American people support this war.

Now to more serious business: French Fries are now Liberty Fries. French Toast is Stars and Stripes Forever Toast. What is the politically correct name for the previously called French Kiss...or are we now patriotically to abstain? There is some urgency in getting an answer.
SINS

Subject: RE: BS: France
From: KarlMarx
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 06:36 PM

Baiser de Français . . .

Subject: RE: BS: France
From: gnu
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 07:05 PM

Let us remember that France is doing what the rest of the "allies" are doing, which is to wait until the US/Brits clean up what they sold to Saddy before they join in. As a matter of fact, France was the FIRST to pledge support if Saddy used WMD upon the "allies".

Subject: RE: BS: France
From: robomatic
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 09:12 PM

I am in support of the American actions in the Middle East and I hope she succeeds in getting Saddam out of there.

I am also in support of French humor, music, science, her great culture. I think her government is making some serious policy errors, but it's her government.

The U.S. wouldn't be here without the French, and it was not for nothing that one of the WW I Yankee shouts was: "Lafayette we are Here!"

The U.S. and France and Iraq's people will survive the coming strife. A shitty dictator will not.

a bientot

Subject: RE: BS: France
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 09:43 PM

From McGrath: "What does "Japan (post-conflict only)" - what's a post conflict ally? A new one on me.

I believe that, under the terms of the treaty that ended World War Two, the Japanese are prohibited from taking part in any armed conflict except to defend Japan itself from invasion. They are allowed to participate in post-conflict peace-keeping efforts, but not the war itself.

Bruce

Subject: RE: BS: France
From: DougR
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 01:43 AM

Greg: I do believe, based on what Colin Powell has stated on several occasions on TV that you are misrepresenting the French position. According to Powell, the French made it clear that they would veto ANY U. N. Resolution that called for an armed force to enforce the Resolution in the event Iraq did not comply. That being the case, why offer the Resolution?

I think once the conflict is over, we will see the French dashing in to participate, on some basis, so that they are not left out when it comes to designing Iraq's future. They have too much at stake financially to stay away after all of the other countries involved have fought the battle to free Iraq. I think they should be told to f--k off!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: France
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 02:45 AM

KarlMarx,

The casualty figures given by Churchill in The World Crisis were the total allied losses on the Western Front - not solely those lost by the French at Verdun.

In the web sites visited regarding Verdun figures used to describe French or German losses include - those taken prisoner, those wounded, those missing and those killed.

Subject: RE: BS: France
From: JudyR
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 03:02 AM

From a French antiwar site: in honor of the Americans, the French are now calling the film "American Pie," and "American Beauty" "Pie," and "Beauty." When asked what they would rename American cheese, they all replied at once, "What cheese?"

Subject: RE: BS: France
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 04:23 AM

I'm not sure if this link will work, but there was a good 'French' cartoon in Sunday's Telegraph. Matt Cartoon 16/3/03
Nigel