BS: No free speech for cops?

Subject: BS: No free speech for cops?
From: Marion
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 01:19 PM

When I was out postering for the anti-war demos I got into a conversation with a street-crossing guard who said that he was opposed to the war and was very worried about Iraqi children, as he had children of his own. I suggested that he join the march on Saturday, and he said that he couldn't because he's a crossing guard. He went on to explain that anyone with a policing-type job is not allowed to take part in demonstrations, even on their own time and out of uniform, or they would lose their job.

It doesn't seem right to me that cops have to waive their right to peaceful and legal free speech - they're still citizens of a democracy, aren't they?

Marion

Subject: RE: BS: No free speech for cops?
From: Kim C
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 01:28 PM

It may depend on if he works for a non-profit organization or not. I don't see how they can tell you what to do on your own time - but I know that having non-profit status requires neutrality in political matters. For instance, the agency I work for cannot endorse political candidates, or take a stand on the war issue. As an employee, I can, but I have to leave my employer out of it.

Subject: RE: BS: No free speech for cops?
From: Troll
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 01:30 PM

Police and suck must remain neutral politically as much as possible. They cannot otherwise perform their duties evenhandedly. At one time, the US military could not vote in national elections because they could be voting against their Commander-in-Chief. That seems a little silly now but it does make sense.
When you have taken an oath to serve and protect, you cannot be seen to show partizanship.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: No free speech for cops?
From: InOBU
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 01:37 PM

Dear Troll... yeah right! yuck yuck yuck yuck... next time a killer cop is tried ... notice the lack of a partizan demo by his co-workers. Also, I would be more generous than you, not all cops suck.
Cheers
Larry
I know people in glass houses, but how could i resist. When are you going to be in New York again!? There is dust on the seats of our restaurant!

Subject: RE: BS: No free speech for cops?
From: Jeri
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 01:42 PM

Jeez, Larry. If anybody ought to be forgiving of other people's typos, it's you. He meant "Police and SUCH," I believe.

Subject: RE: BS: No free speech for cops?
From: Jeri
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 01:46 PM

Interesting Troll - when was it the US military couldn't vote? I've never heard that. Military folks CAN attend demonstrations, out of uniform, and so long as it's a peaceful demonstration and doesn't advocate anything illegal. I don't know if US cops are allowed to do the same.

Subject: RE: BS: No free speech for cops?
From: Jeri
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 01:53 PM

Then again, it looks like SOMEbody missed SOMEthing, but it wasn't Larry. Sorry. I got a whole cable full of either things blowing up or people talking about things blowing up.

Subject: RE: BS: No free speech for cops?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 02:50 PM

A street crossing guard? Is that like of our lollipop ladies and gentlemen, on crossing patrol outside primary schools? I don't think they are customarily seen as any kind of police.

Subject: RE: BS: No free speech for cops?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 02:53 PM

I know that during the Civil War the troops could vote in the national election. Don't know if there was a period before or after that when they couldn't.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: No free speech for cops?
From: beadie
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 03:45 PM

In the 1960's an Army Dermatologist named David Levy was assigned to go to a field trauma and surgical hospital Vietnam after being identified as one of the participants in a peaceful, off-base, off-duty, protest in El Paso. He was out of uniform and not distinguishable as military (other than perhaps by his haircut) when on the march.

Aside from the questionable usefullness of having a dermatologist in country (and at a trauma facility set up to handle triage and treatment of transient surgical cases, no less), the Army was very up front about why they chose him as the next doc to go . . . he had pissed them off.

When he made a stink, contested his orders, and (horrors) went public to the N Y Times with his story, they court-martialed him (bringing discredit on the service). He ended up doing a year in Leavenworth rather than at some detachment outside of Da Nang.

Freedom of Speech? I think not.

Subject: RE: BS: No free speech for cops?
From: beadie
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 03:48 PM

. . . But then again, as Robert Sherrill titled his book (which includes a retelling of the Levy story), . . . . "Military Justice is to Justice as Military Music is to Music."

Subject: RE: BS: No free speech for cops?
From: Kim C
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 03:54 PM

Beadie, the military has their own set of rules. While you or I (or Natalie Maines) could go out in public and say what we think of the President, it's different for them, and they know that going in. Don't you remember awhile back, there was a fairly high-ranking officer who got in trouble for making disparaging comments about the President? Honestly I don't remember if it was W, or Clinton, but he was, at the very least, reprimanded.

Subject: RE: BS: No free speech for cops?
From: InOBU
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 04:35 PM

Hi Jeri... note the people in glass houses instant appology... but WHO could resist, eh? Cheers, more breast beating... Larry

Subject: RE: BS: No free speech for cops?
From: Sorcha
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 04:36 PM

Since Mr. is a cop, I went and asked our Chief of Police. He says this is not true, at least not in our department. Brian's off duty time is his own and he may do anything he likes as long as it is not illegal or a "morals" offence. I suppose it may vary from department to department.

Subject: RE: BS: No free speech for cops?
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 05:31 PM

Judges are also not allowed to make public partisan statements, whether it's a sign on the lawn or a signature on a petition. It's because of the need for impartiality.

Subject: RE: BS: No free speech for cops?
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 05:45 PM

Bogus.

Surely you mean the need for the appearance of impartiality?

Just because judges or cops or sanitation workers don't make public statements or demonstrations doesn't preclude bias or insure political neutrality.

Quite the opposite in most cases.

Subject: RE: BS: No free speech for cops?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 05:57 PM

A crossing guard!!?? Marion is referring to a Canadian. Seems ridiculous doesn't it? A person who's job is herding children every day, might well be sensitive to kids gettin' bombed, no matter what their nationality. I strongly suspect this person has been TOLD that, but if they're an immigrant, or god forbid, a Muslin, they may be keepin a low profile these days....even in Toronto.

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: No free speech for cops?
From: GUEST,Marion
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 06:09 PM

Yes, McGrath, I mean the folks who supervise big intersections near schools at the relevant times of day. I never thought of them as cops either, but I do know that they're hired by police departments, as I once got an autodialer message from the police soliciting people to apply for the job.

Marion

Subject: RE: BS: No free speech for cops?
From: Sorcha
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 06:51 PM

Crossing Gaurds are NOT cops here, they are Parent Volunteers.

Subject: RE: BS: No free speech for cops?
From: GUEST,Marion
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 06:55 PM

Sorcha, I'm curious about your phrase "as long as it's not illegal or a morals offence." What's a morals offence? Do you mean that the cops have a list of things that they consider immoral though not illegal?

Marion

Subject: RE: BS: No free speech for cops?
From: RangerSteve
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 08:02 PM

I can protest if I want to, but not in uniform. I can only wear the uniform when I'm on duty, and then I have a job to do and protesting isn't part of my job. I'd be really careful about what I'm protesting, though, since someone could recognize me and make my live hell.

Subject: RE: BS: No free speech for cops?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 08:39 PM

"Military Justice is to Justice as Military Music is to Music." I've always thought that is unfair to army bands and army bagpipers and so forth. They can make some pretty good sounds. If we ever get to living in a happy world without armies, I want to keep the army bands anyway.

"While you or I (or Natalie Maines) could go out in public and say what we think of the President, it's different for them, and they know that going in." So would they get into trouble for saying what they thought of the President, if they thought he was any good? And if not, why not?

Subject: RE: BS: No free speech for cops?
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 09:07 PM

Hey, dring the D.C. March against the war last weekend, there was a clean cut guy standing on a newpaper box with a sign that read "D.C. Cop Against the War". Well, I'll tell ya what. That cop had a line of folks wanting to press flesh with him, me included.

Yeah, he might not be a cop today, but he sure was last weekend!

And I tried to make as much eye contact with the cops along the march route and got enough *quiet* looks back that I know that lots of cops are with us... Lots...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: No free speech for cops?
From: Cleanhead
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 06:45 AM

Having been a proud member of the LAPD for 30years. And also having been a folkie since the 60's (oxymoron huh like military intelligence) and having never killed anyone and having carried a gun for 30 years and it never killed anyone either. I have a different take on cops. Cops can and do contribute to the political process as long as they are not in uniform, having said that, if your a cop marchin in a peace march, being policed by your own department you just ain't to darn smart. Let's say some innocent protester starts throwing bricks(which by the way hurt like a SOB),and the off duty cop gets caught in the middle, so he has to explain to his department what he was doing at the riot. And he gets fired and his family leaves him and now he can go to any march he wants cool huh. But now I'm retired so I can go to any march I want.

Subject: RE: BS: No free speech for cops?
From: Sorcha
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 12:38 PM

By a "morals" offense I meant that if he had a very public, very messy affair, he could be fired, but might not. Or, if he had sex with a student, even if she was 18............stuff like that.

Subject: RE: BS: No free speech for cops?
From: Marion
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 04:10 PM

Interesting... thanks especially to Cleanhead and RangerSteve for your insights.

Marion

Subject: RE: BS: No free speech for cops?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Mar 03 - 03:31 PM

Political ralliea and such aren't the only places where trouble can flare up. Why's that different from going to rock concert where people get out of hand, or a sports event where a battle royal develops, or just a bar where a fight breaks out? Would being present at the scene of something like that be grounds for dismissal of an officer who hadn't done anything illegal?

If an off-duty police officer can't go anywhere where crowd violence could possibly happen, that must restrict his or her social life rather drastically.

Subject: RE: BS: No free speech for cops?
From: beadie
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 12:13 PM

Kim:

Subject: RE: BS: No free speech for cops?
From: MMario
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 12:18 PM

McGrath - it probably depends on the police department - but yes...

Just as my being present at a bar where my crew-members were drinking was grounds for dismissal at one company I worked for (specifically stated in company handbook) - we were expected to leave immedieately if members of our crew entered a bar where we were...

Subject: RE: BS: No free speech for cops?
From: beadie
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 12:21 PM

Kim:

   I was not arguing that there ought not be a regimen of discipline, only that the "different set of rules" applied to military personnel (and not a small number of civilian protective services folk) should respect the rights guaranteed to "all citizens." An opinion unspoken is sort of like wearing a dark blue suit and wetting your pants . . . . you get a warm feeling, but nobody knows about it.

McGrath:
    I agree. Military bands (and especially pipe ensembles) are definitely music to inspire. I don't think that the author of this old saw meant to disparage the quality of military music, only to say that it is categorically different from the rest.