BS: What if the protests stopped the war

Subject: BS: What if the protests stopped the war
From: Troll
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 11:55 AM

Here's a little something to consider. This was taken from the program notes of Neal Boortz, a Libertarian talk show host.
"Imagine, for a moment, that George Bush suddenly appears on television to announce that the anti-war
demonstrators have made him change his mind. He is going to call for an immediate cease fire and withdraw
all troops from Iraq and the Middle East. Can you just imagine what would happen next? Saddam would be
emboldened beyond measure, as would other dictators of his ilk. France and Russia would become the
dominant world political powers and the United Nations would be under their control. And that's just for starters.
In the months or years to come the United States would face a war for survival that would make this Iraqi action
look like a simple yard cleaning exercise."
Or maybe that's what the protesters want

troll

Subject: RE: BS: What if the protests stopped the war
From: DougR
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 11:56 AM

Could be!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: What if the protests stopped the war
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 12:10 PM

what protesters wanted was a complete exhaustion of peaceful avenues to the disarming of iraq and war used as the last resort. instead, we have an aggresive war that short circuited the process that may have led to a peaceful outcome. what protesters want now is to express strongly their disagreement with such a policy based on unilateral force and policies of pre-emption and pre-eminence. it is their right as americans to do so. it is your right to cook up fantasy scenarios that put unpatriotic doomsday type results as the goals of the protesters but it doesn't take a degree in logic to see these ideas for what they are.

Subject: RE: BS: What if the protests stopped the war
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 01:34 PM

Troll-Why would it be such a bad thing for France and Russia to have power? And how would we "face a war for survival?"

Subject: RE: BS: What if the protests stopped the war
From: Troll
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 01:57 PM

For an example, take a look at the way France treats anyone who isn't French; in particular people of colour from its former colonies. Ask the Algerians if they want the French in a position of power. The Russians treat anyone not Russian as a distince second-class citizen. Ask a Ukranian. Witness their treatment of the Chechens, the Tatars, or the Buryats, to name just a few. On the basis of human rights alone, Russia and France would be a disaster. And if you think the US is so bad, then tell me why people risk their lives sometimes to come here. Go find a few genuine refugees and ask them. Their answers may enlighten you.
If China, for example, thought that we were weakened sufficiently, they might decide to try to take us out. North Korea is another possibility. Use your imagination.
Guest guest, would you mind telling me how much more completely exhausted the avenues of peaceful disarmament could have become? I mean, after 12 years of the same old stall, stall, stall by Iraq, just what more should the US have done. The inspectors were a joke. Saddam would give them a morsel now and again to keep them happy and ,sure enough, they would report that Iraq was cooperating. And then back to the same old stall for time. How long should we have waited, until they tested a nuclear device?
Until it was too damn late to do anything about it? On whose hands would the blood be if we had heeded the protesters and waited until Saddam blew away one of his neighbors?
Well?

troll

Subject: RE: BS: What if the protests stopped the war
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 02:02 PM

Troll-look at what we're doing now. We're flouting international law to make war. WE may not have the worst human rights record in the world, but we don't have the best, either. As far as China taking us out because we stopped a war, remind me when the leaders of China became suicidal? We have the largest store of nuclear weapons in the world, and Dubya has said he would be willing to use them even without prior use of WMDs. Do you honestly think the Chinese hate us so much, or view us as so much a threat to them, that they would risk Mutual Assured Destruction?

Subject: RE: BS: What if the protests stopped the war
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 02:09 PM

The US record is so much better, eh? From two-faced West:

(my emphasis)

The West supports Saddam Hussein in his war with fundamentalist Iran between 1980 and 1988. The US shares CIA and Pentagon intelligence with Iraq and in 1987 US ships confront Iran directly. Other Western powers are outraged by the massacre of Kurds with chemical weapons. But the US remains aloof, exporting advanced technology with possible military use. On 1 August 1990, the day before Iraq invades Kuwait, the US approves the sale of $695 million worth of advanced data transmission devices.

Sources: Amnesty International annual reports; Human Rights Watch World Report 1990; Third World Guide 93-94.

Subject: RE: BS: What if the protests stopped the war
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 03:19 PM

When you're halfway down the ski-jump, it's pretty damned hard to stop. My immediated reaction to this is that now that Bush and his Merry Men have got us into this mess, we'd better finish it. Much of what happens in the rest of this century will be determined by how well the follow-up and rebuilding of Iraq is handled. Our record in Afghanistan so far doesn't make the outlook too promising. And if Bush, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Ashcroft, Perle, and the rest press on with their explicitly stated program of American world domination, look for more wars to follow.

Unless, of course, we get our act together and toss them out in 2004. It's not to early to get started on that!

And the perpetual attempts to impugn the motives of the anti-war, pro-peace activists and protesters by those whose political views are formed by Rush Limbaugh and the Fox News Channel is not only dead wrong, it's downright offensive.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: What if the protests stopped the war
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 03:21 PM

On the mark, Guest/Guest. If protesting can make this country take stock of its goals and means, just maybe they will start exploring other means.

I still deeply disbelieve the figures given in the polls: "70% of the American public support the war"? Why don't I know any of those people? (This figure only coincidentally is the same as given in another thread of the percentage of British against the war.)

troll, some of you keep harping on all the diplomatic means that were used during those 12 years. Then you turn around and totally dismiss the UN as an effective body. But they're the ones who were exploring the diplomatic means. How can you use them as an example of diplomacy experts and on the other hand trash them? Make up your mind.

As an aside, perhaps the United Nations has proven ineffective, just as the League of Nations did. But the world needs, and will continue to need, an entity that will give voice to each signatory in the world- if the UN goes down the tubes we'll still have to create another. Why not work with what we've got?

And just maybe if the USA had respected and supported the United Nations during the years instead of withholding its dues until the delinquent amount came to astronomical figures, the UN would have become and remained a more effective body.

Subject: RE: BS: What if the protests stopped the war
From: DougR
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 04:24 PM

How typical, Ebbie. Now the U. S. is responsible for all of the ills of the U. N. because we witheld dues? Downright funny.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: What if the protests stopped the war
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 04:53 PM

Not just because the United States has been the United Nation's biggest deadbeat member. The U. S. refuses to support the U. N. in a myriad of ways, and always has. It has a vested interest in undercutting the authority of the United Nations right now, because an effective U. N. would be inconsistent with the goals of the New World Order enunciated by the guiding policies of the Bush Administration. Of course, I can see where conservatives would favor this policy, but let's call it what it really is: Empire America. World colonization, by political and economic means if possible, by military means if necessary.

The Forever War. This, of course, has the additional advantage of providing an excuse to set aside Constitutional guarantees indefinitely in the name of "national security."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: What if the protests stopped the war
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 05:16 PM

Once again a quotation which I've previously posted, but which I feel is worth keeping in mind when people get too uptight about criticism of powerful people:

"As far as criticism is concerned, we don't resent that, unless it is absolutely biased - as it usually is."

Words of John Vorster, Prime Minister of South Africa in Apartheid times.

Subject: RE: BS: What if the protests stopped the war
From: InOBU
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 05:20 PM

Troll:
Ya won me over. I agree, the French, the Russians, the rest of the planit sucks. So, keep up the great work, 7th Calvery, cause after Iraq Troll and I are going to send you to France, then Gremany, then Russia, than Scandinavia (effing Danes... teach the effers to make soft cheese!) don't forget ALL of Africa, South America, those a-holes in Canada with there damn eh? this and eh? that! Then, lets see, oh yeah, bloody Japanese... ever had a miso when your are cold and hungry? Then China! Teach those effers to mistreat Panda Bears! Over the mountains to sort out India and Pakistan... then, Tristam de Cuna and their effin stamp industry... don't forget Pitcarin Island, effin mutineers! ANTARTICA! Who the F**K NEEDS THOSE PENGUIN EATING BASTARDS!!!!
Lets go get em, Troll
not...
Cheers pal,
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: What if the protests stopped the war
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 05:30 PM

And don't forget those creepy guys in Liechtenstein, who are threatening to try to beat the English national soccer team next Saturday. At a time like this, trying to humiliate Bush's most loyal ally. How disloyal can you get? That definitely should qualify for being part of the Axis of Evil.

Subject: RE: BS: What if the protests stopped the war
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 06:42 PM

Well, troll, there are a lot of folks that won't let Bush "change his mind". He's a lot like a guy who has borrowed monet from the Mob and, well, he ain' the brightest guy around, but he knows that he'd better not miss any of the payments either.

Speaking of payments, take a good look at the New World Order (The Endless War). It's really a pretty smart *Boss Hog* plan for income distribution. The working class folks are not only the ones dieing in their *Endless War* but also gonna get socked with paying for it. And who benefits? Hmmmmmm? See what I mean. The working class is getting a good old fashion Boss Hog Gang Bangin' and, from reading what some folks thing here in the Catbox, are loving it!

Go figure?

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: What if the protests stopped the war
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 06:58 PM

troll, no we should not have waited until the iraquis exploded a nuclear device. we should have waited until the time requested by the inspectors which, as i recall, was a matter of weeks. at such time the UN should have evaluated the results, decided on a course of action (which may have included military force) and proceeded. in that case i think we may have been able to keep world opinion with us and avoided the resentment we've stirred and still have dealt with saddam in a timely fashion. instead we've launched an unprecedented and illegal aggressive war. time will tell the truth of what our governments agenda is but the manner in which it has acted makes me very suspicious. that, and the new american century document which clearly is a blueprint for american primacy in the world at the expense of others. a reprehensible and truly unamerican manifesto.

Subject: RE: BS: What if the protests stopped the war
From: Gareth
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 07:11 PM

Mmmmm ! The coalation farces may cease fire - bur will the Iraqui's ???

Or will the Iraqui Armwy advance all the way to the Meddireanean, and the Red Sea ??

Arrrgh, I was forgetting this would damage French financial interests.

Perhaps Henry V - Monmouth Hal - got it right.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: What if the protests stopped the war
From: InOBU
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 08:49 PM

HEY McGRATH! What do ya mean US? After we beat the hell out of Lichstinstien... the USA is coming after England AND Ireland! No where to run, pal, we know the only way to be safe from weapons of mass destruction is for there to be one and only one mean assed son of a bitch in the valley! TRUST NO ONE! Bloody cricket playing **^%#*&%)(*@&%*&$^%&*$^!
Drink warm beer will ya!
When we sort you out, you will brink cold weak beer and COKE!
Cheers
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: What if the protests stopped the war
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 10:56 PM

"How typical, Ebbie. Now the U. S. is responsible for all of the ills of the U. N. because we witheld dues?"

What Don Firth said.

"Or will the Iraqui Armwy advance all the way to the Meddireanean, and the Red Sea ??"

I know, Gareth, I know. Hussein has been warring outside his borders, and we have to put him back.

Subject: RE: BS: What if the protests stopped the war
From: Troll
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 12:19 AM

Ebbie, if you think that 12 years of abject failure on the part of the UN to get Iraq to respect the terms of the cease-fire that it signed signifies expertise in diplomacy, so be it. I respectfully disagree.
GUEST guest I don't know how many times the inspectors told us that the Iraqis were starting to cooperate only to have something go wrong. Saddam would accuse some of the inspectors of being spies or of trying to getinto someplace he said they couldn't go and we were back to square one.
Saddam is a master at the game of stall and buy time and he did it for 12 years. The one thing the inspectors DID find, a number of tons of anthrax, have never, to this day, been accounted for.
Blix's statement that the inspectors were only a few weeks away from completing their job sounds more to me like the wish being father to the deed than anything based in fact. Considering what Saddam had done every other time the inspectors thought they had something going in the way of cooperation, I don't think he had any reason to be even remotely optomistic.
Saddam himself stated that his tactic was to stall and buy time until the Bush-Blair coalition fell apart.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: What if the protests stopped the war
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 12:58 AM

it doesn't matter how many times saddam stalled as far as my point in my previous message. i think we were in a situation where he had been pushed to the brink, was surrounded by the mighty US military, and the world was aware that this was the last go-round. he was contained, being inspected and watched over by our mighty surveillance devices and could not have pulled off any action against us in this state. had we waited the extra few weeks we would have brought the rest of the world along with us and showed good faith with the UN. the way we have acted, however, illustrates the neo-cons hunger to destroy the UN as an effective mediating source as well as instituting their plan for american primacy. the rush to war with the poor excuses we've been sold makes their agenda pretty clear to anyone who hasn't bought their phony bill of goods.

Subject: RE: BS: What if the protests stopped the war
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 01:00 AM

PS why do you believe what saddam says when it fits your argument and consider him to be lying when it does not?

Subject: RE: BS: What if the protests stopped the war
From: Troll
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 02:01 AM

Because the things that he said that I believe fit the facts. He has used the stall tactic for years and it has worked.
As far as the UN being an effective mediating source, when? Israel? Kosovo, Afghanistan and the Russians? The Sudan? Rwanda? Oh, I'm sure there must be an instance or two that can be dug up, but from what I've seen over the last 40 years or so, it's done little but talk and pass resolutions that are largely ignored.
I understand that the Turks have sent troops into northern Iraq.
Quick! Call a special session of the Security Council and pass a resolution condeming their action.
And see how much good it does.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: What if the protests stopped the war
From: *daylia*
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 03:01 PM

This is from Mad Kane's website. Thought some of you would appreciate it...

"In honor of Dubya's disdain for peace demonstrators, I offer

"Bush Don't Need No Demonstrations."
(Sung to "Another Brick in the Wall," by Pink Floyd).

Bush don't need no demonstrations.
He don't need no 'pinion polls.
No dark forecasts of gloom and war doom.
Peaceniks! Leave George Bush alone!
Hey! Peaceniks! Leave George Bush alone!

Oil sweet oil! Oh don't you tell me Bush is like Gore.
Oil sweet oil! George claims it's not his motive for war.

Bush says he's helped education.
What he wants is thought control.
And religion throughout our classrooms.
Preachers! Leave our kids alone!
Let teachers help kids' minds to grow.

Stand up tall or yet another right takes a fall.
Heed the call or let our freedoms ring never more.

© February 25, 2003 Madeleine Begun Kane. All Rights Reserved.



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