Folklore: woad. Caesar. Celts

Subject: Folklore: woad. Caesar. Celts
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 12:51 AM

We are going to sing the woad song (see the Digital Tradition)for the St David's Society, and I need some background about Celts (if any) painting themselves blue.

I thought that Julius Caesar said in his "Gallic Wars" that the Celts painted themselves blue for battle. Strangely, enough my encyclopedia doesn't mention this in the article on Caesar. So I would like to ask:

Did this quotation really come from Casesar's Gallic Wars?
What do the surviving manuscripts actually say?
Did he ever get to Britain (i.e. did he ever see any blue warriors with his own eyes?)

Over the years, I have read that the reference really means that they wore woollen clothes, they had tattoos, or they wore war paint.

I have seen the SCA site which discusses tattoos,Priteni and Picts, and I have read the Mudcat threads on the history of the song. I just need info on how the legend of blue warriors came about.

Thanks.

Subject: RE: Folklore: woad. Caesar. Celts
From: Cluin
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 01:18 AM

It must be true. That paragon of historical accuracy, Mel Gibson, did it in "Braveheart".

Subject: RE: Folklore: woad. Caesar. Celts
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 03:37 AM

Don't forget that in the film "Goldfinger" it was made clear that completely covering the body with paint leads to death (although in this case Gold paint). For this reason it was common to leave the spine un-painted.


Hence the origin of the 'white line down the middle of the woad' *BG*

Nigel

Subject: RE: Folklore: woad. Caesar. Celts
From: greg stephens
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 03:44 AM

"Woad's the stuff to show men
Woad to scare your foe-men
Boil it to
A brilliant hue
And rub it on your back and your ab-domen"
(Old Scouts song, to the tune of "Men of Harlech")

Whether J Caesar saw it, I dont know. But he certainly invaded Britain in 55BC and fought the ancient Brits

Subject: RE: Folklore: woad. Caesar. Celts
From: greg stephens
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 03:47 AM

I dont think Mel Gibson actually used woad, it isnt that colour. I think it was some emulsion from B&Q they'd acquired free for product placement. Otherwise, of course, Braveheart was 100% historically accurate.

Subject: RE: Folklore: woad. Caesar. Celts
From: daithi
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 04:15 AM

The ancient Britons were in the habit of fighting naked. Given the British climate, you can see whay they looked blue....

Subject: RE: Folklore: woad. Caesar. Celts
From: greg stephens
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 05:39 AM

Contributions to this thread confirm an interesting fact,which was unfortunately unknown to those romantic Celts. They were successively defeated by the waves of additional newcomer Celts, then the Romans, then the English. And all the while they kept painting themselves blue under the impression they were intimidating the enemy. They never realised that woad, like farting and slipping on banana skins, is actually funny.

Subject: RE: Folklore: woad. Caesar. Celts
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 06:13 AM

The Romans had just landed on the British shore and were all lined up. Suddenly a single Celt stuck his head round the corner of the cliff, shouted some rude words in Latin, made obscene gestures and mooned at them, before dodging round the corner again. "Go and capture that man" ordered the Roman general. A single Roman soldier was dispatched to do so. There were sounds of blows and yells, then silence, and again the Celt appeared and repeated his performance. The Romans then dispached two maniples of men after the offender. Again there was the noise of conflict, then silence and the cheeky Celt appeared yet again. This was too much for the Romans and they sent a centurian with his hundred men. Again noise of great battle, silence, and a single badly wounded Roman soldier managed to crawl back round the corner. "It's a trap - it's a trap", he gasps, "There's two of them !".

Subject: RE: Folklore: woad. Caesar. Celts
From: Micca
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 06:36 AM

Woad, derived from the plant Isatis Tinctoria which is a fairly non-descript yellow flowered plant( seeds are obtainable in the UK from Many seed merchants) is an incredibly effective tissue dye,( I KNOW this from experiment) and if you get it on Body parts it will persist until it wears off and the skin replaces itself, this can be up to 2 WEEKS , If you are really unlucky, and you paint patterns in Woad on your person and it is Sunny, the woad selectively absorbs UV and after the blue has gone you can have the patterns in bright red SunBurn ( tan, if you Tan) on your person, visible for MUCH longer.
Also the preparation of the Woad dye can Make you VERY unpopular with the neighbours as it involves boiling the plant in urine( altho' dilute Ammonia works as well,it hardly improves the effect) the effect on your neighbours can be easily predicted.

Subject: RE: Folklore: woad. Caesar. Celts
From: Rapparee
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 07:26 AM

Ah! What we have here is the muddle of the woad!

Subject: RE: Folklore: woad. Caesar. Celts
From: GUEST,T-boy
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 07:39 AM

I approve of this fighting naked, it's a great idea. All wars should be fought naked, and all armies should have men and women.

Subject: RE: Folklore: woad. Caesar. Celts
From: HuwG
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 08:27 AM

Dave Bryant, [nitpick] A maniple was actually two centuries, the word meant "handful". A Tribune or General could send forward one century while keeping the other in reserve; then send forward the second while the first retired to regroup and draw breath; then the first would relieve the second and so on.

Perhaps you meant to say, "two contubernia". A contubernium was a tent, and in Roman military terms was equivalent to an eight-man section, occupying a single tent when encamped. Normally, ten contubernia made a centuria.[/nitpick].




I have a copy of Julius Caesar's "Conquest of Gaul" somewhere home, I will read it when I have the chance. Unfortunately, I'm performing (musically, I hasten to add) tonight.


Legionaries, from the right, number !

Eye
Eye-eye
Eye-eye-eye
Ivy
V
V-eye
V-eye-eye
V-eye-eye-eye
Eye-X
X


etc. (with apologies to Frank Muir, Frankie Howerd and anyone else who has performed this ancient routine).

Subject: RE: Folklore: woad. Caesar. Celts
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 09:05 AM

It sounds like we have a couple people who have actually studied something from the era (viewing Braveheart doesn't count) and one person who has handled woad. Promising.

There is a website which purports to have the text of De Bella Gallico, but I can only get to Book I, which doesn't have the word blue in it. My public library doesn't have the book.

Daithi: "The ancient Britons were in the habit of fighting naked." This is so unlikely. Who says?

Micca, are you a dyer? What do you do? I love fabrics and sewing.

There is a website which purports to have the text of "De Bella Gallico," but I can only get to Book I, which doesn't have the word blue in it.

Dave Bryant: I loved your joke.

Subject: RE: Folklore: woad. Caesar. Celts
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 09:33 AM

Sorry HuwG, I'd always assumed that a Maniple was five men ie the number of digits on one hand.

Subject: RE: Folklore: woad. Caesar. Celts
From: Jeanie
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 09:43 AM

Have a look at this: a href="http://www.hippy.com/albion/woad.htm">Woad and its Mis-Association with Pictish Body Art

which contains the Latin reference you are looking for, and also various interpretations of it.

I loved that joke, too !

- jeanie

Subject: RE: Folklore: woad. Caesar. Celts
From: Jeanie
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 09:47 AM

Sorry, attempt II at the link (appropriately woad-coloured this time, I hope !)
a href="http://www.hippy.com/albion/woad.htm">Woad and its Mis-Association with Pictish Body Art

- jeanie

Subject: RE: Folklore: woad. Caesar. Celts
From: MMario
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 09:50 AM

Woad and its Mis-Association with Pictish Body Art

Subject: RE: Folklore: woad. Caesar. Celts
From: Jeanie
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 09:53 AM

here goes... a href="http://www.hippy.com/albion/woad.htm">Woad - Attempt III

If the Woad-coloured clicky doesn't work this time, sorry folks, I did try...It's worth reading that webpage, even if it means you have to take the scenic route to get there..

- jeanie

Subject: RE: Folklore: woad. Caesar. Celts
From: Micca
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 01:16 PM

leenia, No I am not a Dyer, but I have studied Chemistry,and have a little knowledge of the Chemistry of dyeing. In my youth was conned into doing some experimental woad preparation and Body art hence the personal knowledge of the effects referred to above. The Woad used came from a museum specimen in the Pharmacy dept at a London University college, and was, therefore, the REAL thing!! The effects were as noted above, and as observed in the linked article, it had a powerful astringent effect the skin!! the Sunburn was very painful and the tanned/burned pattern took several months to completely disappear!!

Subject: RE: Folklore: woad. Caesar. Celts
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 10:00 PM

Thanks for the link, Jeanie. I enjoyed the site, both the text and the art. It was nice to see the actual quotation from Caesar.

I think we should start a Mudcat in-group thing where blue clickies are referred to as woadlinks.

Meanwhile, does anybody know if Julius Caesar ever actually got to the British Isles?

Subject: RE: Folklore: woad. Caesar. Celts
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 10:17 PM

Yes, of course he did; in 55 and 54 BC. His visits were not long, nor his travels extensive; but he did at least cross the Thames on the occasion of the second invasion.

Subject: RE: Folklore: woad. Caesar. Celts
From: NicoleC
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 10:27 PM

During the invasion of 55BC, JC did indeed go to Britain unless a lot of historians have got it really, really wrong.

Perhaps you are confusing Julius and Ireland?

Subject: RE: Folklore: woad. Caesar. Celts
From: Cluin
Date: 10 Apr 03 - 01:04 AM

I thought the term "blue clicky" already WAS a Mudcat in-group thing. I haven't seen it called that anywhere else.

Subject: RE: Folklore: woad. Caesar. Celts
From: Chip2447
Date: 10 Apr 03 - 02:25 AM

Its my understanding that fighting unclothed was due to the extreme lack of personal hygiene when it came to clothing. Wounds were less likely to get infected...

Chip2447

Subject: RE: Folklore: woad. Caesar. Celts
From: mouldy
Date: 10 Apr 03 - 02:52 AM

Not only that, but woad has antiseptic/astringent properties, and might possibly help in the wound department (although I think it would struggle in the decapitation/disembowelling area!) Possibly the Britons discovered this by happy accident.
According to Culpeper, "An ointment made of the leaves stanches bleeding...is good in such ulcers as abound with moisture, and takes away the corroding and fretting humours; it cools inflammations..." Another book I have (Mrs Grieve, 1931) quotes Culpeper, and then says that it is too astringent to be taken internally. The RHS Encyclopaedia of Herbs says that Caesar and Pliny both wrote that the Britons painted themselves blue with woad. It was first mentioned in Chinese medicine in the 1590s, "and is often prescibed in large doses with apparently no ill-effects. In practice, high doses are needed to maintain high levels of active ingredients. Recent research suggests pronounced anti-viral effects."

By the way, the smell of its fermentation in the dyeing industry was so bad, that Elizabeth 1 banned the process within 5 miles (8km) of any of her palaces. I had some years ago in the garden. It has the most beautiful black seeds! It also got a bit straggly.

Andrea

Subject: RE: Folklore: woad. Caesar. Celts
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 10 Apr 03 - 07:39 AM

Legionaires, from the right, number:
The fourtth has to report: Eye-eye-eye-eye! The correct Latin writing of the number four was always IIII, the IV is an invention of idle clockmakers along to the correct IX (ten less one). The use of the lesser numbers subtracted from a higher right one is an invention of modern centuries; so 1994 is not REPEAT NOT MXMIV, but MDCCCCLXXXXIIII.

Tissue dye rubbing off to the hide can be seen still today with the Tuareg, called the "Blue People", nomads in the Northern Sahara.

Fighting "naked" may mean "without protective gear", if you consider the protective cuirasses, shin protectors, helmets &c. of the average Roman heavy infantery of the line.

And now I'll look up Caesars Commentaries of the Gallian war, may last a time.

Wilfried

Subject: RE: Folklore: woad. Caesar. Celts
From: HuwG
Date: 10 Apr 03 - 08:29 AM

The "other" Caesarian joke has already been flogged to death in another context in the Pirate Jokes thread; but here goes anyway ...


Julius Caesar and his legions are approaching the shores of Britain. On the beach can be seen several dozen Britons, capering about starkers, waving spears and shouting defiance. The legionaries are pale and tense, and their knuckles show white as they grip their spears more tightly.

Caesar turns to his servant, and orders, "Bring me my red cloak !"

"The red cloak ? Isn't that a trifle loud for an occasion like this ?" asks the surprised servant.

Caesar replies, "If I should be wounded, the blood will not show on the red cloak, and my men will not be disheartened."

The first ships take ground, the gangplanks splash into the water, and the legionaries start wading ashore. Instantly, from behind every bush and from every gully, thousands upon thousands of naked Britons charge towards the shore, making a horrendous din with their warcries.

Caesar turns to his servant, and orders, "Bring me my brown trousers !"

Subject: RE: Folklore: woad. Caesar. Celts
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 10 Apr 03 - 08:44 AM

Hi, leeneia -

And here finally is the answer: In his 5th commentary Caesar describes the Britons (ch. 12), the lay of the land (ch. 13), and the more civilized Kentians (ch. 14) compared with the people living in the inner parts of the Isle.
In the 14th chapter he writes:
"Omnes vero se Britanni vitro inficiunt, quod caeruleum efficit colorem, atque hoc horribiliores sunt in pugna aspectu"
Indded all Britons apply woad upon themselves, which gives a blue colour, and so they are pretty horrible to look at in combat [my translation].
About fighting naked I didn't find a reference in Caesar's commentaries, neither here nor in the report about his first invasion (4, 20-26).

About the rubbing off of woad colour: I'm not so sure about it anymore; woad was the cheapest dye in Germany, too, but I never heard of peasants with blue hide over here - but God knows best. So let Caesar's observations stand as they do.

Wilfried

Subject: RE: Folklore: woad. Caesar. Celts
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 10 Apr 03 - 08:47 AM

Bloody hell, scratch Indded, put Indeed

W

Subject: RE: Folklore: woad. Caesar. Celts
From: Jeanie
Date: 10 Apr 03 - 10:14 AM

Aaah, but the Pictish Body Art link (see above) which gave the Latin quotation, also suggests alternative translations and interpretations: - 'vitro' may not be referring to woad at all !

First meaning of 'vitro -i' is 'glass'. Alternative suggestions from the Body Art webpage are that the Latin is referring to 'glaze', or else that the 'inficiunt' may be a mis-transcription for 'infect', then giving the meaning that they 'infect themselves with glass' - which would leave a permanent raised pattern of scar tissue on the skin, as is also practised in other parts of the world, such as Africa.

- jeanie

Subject: RE: Folklore: woad. Caesar. Celts
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 10 Apr 03 - 11:20 AM

Thanks for all the responses, especially those that involved some thinking.

Malcolm: I appreciate your answering the question of whether Julius Caesar actually reached England, but I resent the "of course." There is no "of course" about it. He could have been called back to Rome and been writing the bits about Britain secondhand.

But, armed with your information that he crossed the Thames, I can tell the St David's members that he entered Britain, discovered that there no vineyards, no pizza, and that the pasta was consistently overcooked, and so he returned to Rome. It is a Noson Lawon, after all.

Nicole: Rest easy. I know the difference between England and Ireland.

Wilfried: Thanks so much for looking up the original. I agree with the theory that "fighting naked" meant "fighting without armor." It makes a lot more sense.

I think we've about covered the subject here. Not that I'm dropping a hint that we stop posting.

Subject: RE: Folklore: woad. Caesar. Celts
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Apr 03 - 11:29 AM

As all enthusiasts of '1066 and all that' know, there are only two memorable dates in English history: 55BC and 1066. In the book they admit to having included a third date in the early drafts but had to withdraw it on the grounds it was not truly memorable.

Subject: RE: Folklore: woad. Caesar. Celts
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 10 Apr 03 - 11:48 AM

Jeanie, do you have the slightest imagination how expensive glass was in those times? Where could those remote natives of Old Britain raise the money to buy it for scratching their leathery hide?
Vitrum (vitro is the ablative) may mean glass also, but when used with colouring you are on the safe side if you presume that it means woad. In all his commentaries Caesar uses the word vitrum only once, viz. in the chapter I gave above, and there it clearly means woad.
Inficere means "to put on, in". It fits here well for putting on a dye. Other suggestions remind me of my early theological and juridical studies, where words and meanings were bended to the extremes just to have a support for thoughts which couldn't be proved otherwise.
Caesar was an old sweat in the army and reported mostly correct what he saw, except where he relayed on hearsay (comm. 6, 27: the elks in Germany). I think you should believe what he wrote down.

Wilfried

Subject: RE: Folklore: woad. Caesar. Celts
From: HuwG
Date: 10 Apr 03 - 02:09 PM

You might try these two sites:

The Roman Army of the Late Republic ; this has a vaaaaast list of Roman military terms;

Caesar's Commentaries translated (or mistranslated).


Incidentally, the term "Old Sweat" might not be correct in this context; Julius Caesar was indeed an experienced soldier, but his first military appointment was as a Legionary Tribune, which might equate to a Major in present-day armies; the system by which men of suitably fortunate birth in the Roman Republic were appointed to military and civil posts was both very rigid and very complicated.

An "Old Sweat", in British Army usage, is usually a long-serving ranker or Junior NCO, with long experience of soldiering but no aptitude for promotion. i.e. the opposite of the young Julius Caesar. (I never heard the term used in anger, and rarely see it in literature except in the context of World War One, or peacetime service between the two World Wars).

Subject: RE: Folklore: woad. Caesar. Celts
From: GUEST,arnie
Date: 10 Apr 03 - 02:34 PM

I know Julius Caesar landed in Britain 'cos his first footfall on our shores was about 2 miles from where I'm sitting now - at least that's what the English Heritage notice on the beach says!

Subject: RE: Folklore: woad. Caesar. Celts
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 10 Apr 03 - 03:40 PM

Some historians have made the assumption that Caesar was referring to the Picts being dyed with the woad plant, Isatris tinctoria, but this is by no means a proven fact. It could have been another dye altogether.

Vitrum is most commonly translated as glass, but Caesar could have been referring to the use of flint or other glassy material for scarification.

Vitrum also is in Latin dictionaries as woad, or dyestuff. When did vitrum adopt this meaning? Was this post Caesar's time?

Subject: RE: Folklore: woad. Caesar. Celts
From: Strick
Date: 10 Apr 03 - 04:33 PM

"I approve of this fighting naked, it's a great idea. All wars should be fought naked, and all armies should have men and women. "

But where are you going your canteen? Oh yeah? For how long?

(Alan King routine circa 1968)

Subject: RE: Folklore: woad. Caesar. Celts
From: Jeanie
Date: 11 Apr 03 - 04:33 AM

Everything has to remain supposition until it is proved true by incontrovertible evidence. A lot of the supposition by historians and archaeologists on all kinds of subjects is being increasingly proved/disproved as testing of finds becomes more sophisticated. So much more is going to be discovered about the past through the use of DNA testing, for example.

Tests have been done, for instance, on the body of the Lindow Man (the Bog Man of Manchester, found in 1984) who died between AD 50 and AD 100. Tests found iron or copper pigments had been applied to his skin, but tests for vegetable dyes were negative. However, fabric remnants found with him did show evidence of having been dyed with woad. Tests on other bog people also show that a variety of metal-based pigments were used to decorate the skin, not only producing blue colours but also greens, yellows and reds.

- jeanie

Subject: RE: Folklore: woad. Caesar. Celts
From: Mr Happy
Date: 11 Apr 03 - 05:44 AM

WOAD-THE SONG OF THE ANCIENT BRITONS [to tune:'Men of Harlech']

W. Hope Jones was a master at Eton, and wrote the song, c.1921, for the college's Boy Scout troop. ("Gilwell Camp Fire Song Book"]

What's the use of wearing braces
Hats or spats or boots with laces
Coats and vests you buy in places
Down on Brompton Road

What's the use of shirts of cotton
Studs that always get forgotten
These affairs are simply rotten
Better far is Woad

Woad's the stuff to show men
Woad to scare your foemen
Boil it to a brilliant hue
And rub it on your back and your ab-do-men
Ancient Britons never hit on
Anything as fine as Woad to fit on
Neck or knees or where you sit on
Tailors, you'll be blowed

Romans crossed the English Channel
All dressed up in tin and flannel
Half a pint of Woad per man'll
Clothe us more than these

Saxons you can keep your stitches
For making beds for bugs in britches
We have Woad to clothe us which is
Not a nest for fleas

Romans, save your armours
Saxons, your pyjamas
Hairy coats were made for goats
Gorillas, yaks, retriever dogs, and llamas

March on Snowdon with your Woad on
Never mind if you get rained or snowed on
Never need a button sewed on
W! O! A! D! Woooad!!!.

Subject: RE: Folklore: woad. Caesar. Celts
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 11 Apr 03 - 11:35 PM

"Tests have been done, for instance, on the body of the Lindow Man (the Bog Man of Manchester, found in 1984) who died between AD 50 and AD 100. Tests found iron or copper pigments had been applied to his skin, but tests for vegetable dyes were negative. However, fabric remnants found with him did show evidence of having been dyed with woad. Tests on other bog people also show that a variety of metal-based pigments were used to decorate the skin, not only producing blue colours but also greens, yellows and reds."

Thank you, Jeannie, for that information. I've been leaning towards the idea of tattooing or body paint here, and this gives some confirmation. (I wonder why Manchester United hasn't taken it up, now that they have a precedent.)

As for the word "vitrum," perhaps it is related to our term "glaze."

The St David's Welsh Society will be pleased to hear that the song was written by a man named Jones. In order to get the proper military effect, we are reviving the "snare drum" made by laying dry linguine in a bodhran and tapping on the rim. I believe Jones would have approved.

Every time I sing the words dealing with braces,shirts, and studs, I think of Bertie Wooster and his man Jeeves. Men in those stories often suffered mishaps involving studs.

Subject: RE: Folklore: woad. Caesar. Celts
From: Amos
Date: 12 Apr 03 - 12:02 AM

If we adopt the suggestion about naming HTML links for this blue stuff, then the whole internet becomes a long, long Woad a -winding. Isn't that right?

I am sure this will breed a song challenge with such entries as "Country Woad, Take Me Home", and the vege-alcoholics' theme song, "On the Woad Again"....

(Siggggh).


A

Subject: RE: Folklore: woad. Caesar. Celts
From: Micca
Date: 12 Apr 03 - 04:46 AM

Perhaps a revival of the old Elvis track "Woad-en Heart?

Subject: RE: Folklore: woad. Caesar. Celts
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 12 Apr 03 - 07:11 AM

HuwG - thanks for the correction; I'm eager to learn more of the right use of military terms in a language not my own. I should have used the term experienced staff officer and general instead.

Jeanie - Due to my standard Latin dictionary (Big Georges') vitrum means 1. glass; 2. woad. Nothing about glaze. Here a Roman would use nitor.

Wilfried

Subject: RE: Folklore: woad. Caesar. Celts
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 12 Apr 03 - 02:57 PM

The Romans were famous for their glass, the term vitrum for it appears in other works that Caesar's.
Dictionaries, unless supported by dated entries (like the OED), are useless in determining when a meaning was in use. The appearance of "woad," or "dyestuff," as a definition of vitrum in abridged modern Latin dictionaries does not mean that the word had that sense in ancient Rome. Many additional definitions were added in medieval times.

Subject: RE: Folklore: woad. Caesar. Celts
From: pavane
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 05:04 AM

Just a footnote. Yesterday I found myself at an 18th birthday party in Chicago Rock Cafe, Swansea (daughter of a friend, I'm not that young myself!).

This party was fancy dress, and we had

1. Anthony & Cleopatra (i.e a Roman)
2. A Chicago gangster, complete with white braces and spats
3. An ancient Celt, with blue face paint

Who could resist this opportunity?

After the presents and speechs I performed a rendition of the Woad song (Shouted rather than sung, because of the ongoing rock music) complete with these supporters.

I was unable to find a Saxon warrior, but a tall girl dressed as an Indian squaw stood in.

If I can find a picture, I will post it.

Subject: RE: Folklore: woad. Caesar. Celts
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 08:33 AM

After Julius Caesar forded the Thames, he subdued Cassivellanus, who ruled around the area roughly corresponding to Hertford.
Ancient Britons usualy fought stripped to the waist, but some did so entirely naked, to emphasize their ferocity and strength. Perhaps virility as well. Greek and Roman imagination was quite taken by this, note the statues of naked Celts, such as the famous Dying Gaul.
Caesar's books are unreliable when it comes to motives and interpretation of events, but factual details can usualy be trusted (as far as any eye-witness accounts can be).

Subject: RE: Folklore: woad. Caesar. Celts
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 09:55 AM

But not the cock-and-bull stories about the jointless moose in the Hercynian Woods!

Subject: RE: Folklore: woad. Caesar. Celts
From: GUEST,DB
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 11:57 AM

Apparently woad was grown in the Fens (near Spalding, Lincs., I think) until the 20th century. The dye was made by fermenting the leaves of the plant. Eventually the trade died (gedditt? Dyed/died - oh well, please yourselves! Actually, it's not funny at all - don't know why I started this!) as a result of cheap imports of indigo ... from India (oh noooo - that's not funny either!!!).
Anyway, along with some of the previous posters to this thread, I grew some woad plants (Isatis tinctoria) in the garden - but I never did manage to extract any blue dye from them.

Subject: RE: Folklore: woad. Caesar. Celts
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 03:00 AM

In my state's open air museum there is a dyer showing his profession, using woad. You can't extract any blue from it. You soak the fabric in a liquid made from woad, then you let it dry. The oxidation gives a light shade of blue. The more often you repeat this process, the darker the blue will be.
Masking parts of the fabric with a stuff I don't know and washing it out after the process will give you patterns, similar to the use of wax with batik.

Subject: RE: Folklore: woad. Caesar. Celts
From: GUEST,DB
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 05:30 AM

Thanks, Wilfried - that's very interesting. So how did the ancient Brits, and some previous correspondents, manage to dye their skin's with it (if the ancient Brits did use it for skin dye, that is); there's something here that doesn't quite add up.

Subject: RE: Folklore: woad. Caesar. Celts
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 08:49 AM

Don't ask me, I'm no expert. As the Arabs say: Wallahu a'lam -but God knows best.

Subject: RE: Folklore: woad. Caesar. Celts
From: Paul Burke
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 08:51 AM

The blue thingy link's buggered. so you'll have to cut and paste:
http://www.cyberpict.net/sgathan/essays/woad.htm

Subject: RE: Folklore: woad. Caesar. Celts
From: MMario
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 08:59 AM

When the dye is reduced you end up with a yellowish-green liquid dye bath. if applied to the skin and then exposed to the air (oxygen actually) such as would occur when the liquid dried on your skin, the pigment goes blue.

Subject: RE: Folklore: woad. Caesar. Celts
From: Jeri
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 09:14 AM

Pavane, that must have been hilarious - not only the woad song story, but that there's a place called the 'Chicago Rock Cafe' in Swansea. Also, possibly the picture in my head of a bunch of people nodding off, only to suddenly wake up two years later to resume the former conversation.

Subject: RE: Folklore: woad. Caesar. Celts
From: Snuffy
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 09:35 AM

Jeri,

Chicago Rock Cafe is a well-known chain of cafe-bars in Britain. Most towns have one, but if you look at their website, you may work out why I've never yet been to one. :-)

Subject: RE: Folklore: woad. Caesar. Celts
From: pavane
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 10:05 AM

It went down well with the kids at the party, anyway.

FYI:
Next week's liuve act there is apparently Dr & the Medics (the real ones, not a tribute band).

(I have only been there twice, both times because I was invited to parties. It's not really my kind of place)