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folk song politics
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Subject: folk song politics From: Fay Date: 12 Apr 03 - 02:39 PM Folk music/song seems to be heavily linked with politics. The folk club movement was dominated by people with a strong political stance, and many songs rebelling against political movements are labeled 'folk songs'. What has this got to do with the 'traditional' material which was being revived and why/when was it decided that politics and heritage should linked. I'm basically asking why are these two bodies of material, which differ greatly in their style/reason for being(?) are put in the same category of 'folk music'. |
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Subject: RE: folk song politics From: Felipa Date: 12 Apr 03 - 03:00 PM good question I imagine it has to do with traditional songs being music "of the people" in a way that classical or commercial pop isn't There is some traditonal work song which is political in nature songwriters such as Joe Hill or Woody Guthrie or Bob Dylan often put their lyrics to traditional tunes, often well-known ones politically oriented singers such as Woody Guthrie and Pete Seeger and Dick Gaughan (etc) would sing both traditional folk song and newly-composed political songs there are of course other people who are interested in only one or the other side of the coin |
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Subject: RE: folk song politics From: InOBU Date: 12 Apr 03 - 03:09 PM Dear Fay, Folk music is not a musium where our songs are placed behind glass. The traditional songs were about the issues of the day often made dangerous to sing. Tradition is also not static. I write in a tradition passed down in our family for centuries. My father was a singer and poet, as was his father, but at some point in order to create a clasical movement in folk, those who were selling it, not writing it, decided it was anonimous and old, rather than alive and identifiable. All the best Don't fear the bearer of ill news Larry |
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Subject: RE: folk song politics From: Deckman Date: 12 Apr 03 - 03:24 PM Hmmm ... one of the more interesting threads I've seen in some time. After some sleep, I'll look forward to posting> CHEERS, Bob |
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Subject: RE: folk song politics From: GUEST,Q Date: 12 Apr 03 - 04:15 PM Many ideas get coalesced when "folk music" is discussed and much depends upon definitions. We are, as you say, in some ways still in the shadow of the protest singers of the first half of the 20th century and perpetuate some of their politics. The protest songs of a Woody Guthrie are the songs of a minority. Were these songs ever the expressions of the mass of the people? In America, disadvantaged groups are always minorities. Their goals are different and often clash. The farmer in Kansas would never have the same opinions as the garment industry seamstress in New York and neither would care much about the problems of the other. Can these protest songs be grouped with the story, play-party and general amusement songs preserved in the Appalachian and elsewhere, even if, in some cases, both types of song were sung by the same balladeer? This ought to loosen a few of the cobblestones in the street. |
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Subject: RE: folk song politics From: Amos Date: 12 Apr 03 - 04:37 PM The theme of protesting human misconduct -- especially by governments and power groups-- has been a common one in folk music since "London Bridge" was written -- and those who, conversely, spend their days pursuing power and gain at the expense of others do not usually have the sensibility to be musicians, or the time to sing folk music. So the two threads are natural kissing cousins. Sure there are lots of other themes in folk music -- love, bad guys, adventures with drink, being broke, and war come to mind. But protesting the inequalities of life has always been among them. Perhaps historically there is also a class distinction between those who could use other media -- such as parchment and quill -- compared to those who could only use their natiral talent for song, being not educated in literary arts. I think the link between folk music and protest is a natural one. A |
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Subject: RE: folk song politics From: The Pooka Date: 12 Apr 03 - 04:46 PM I don't know how you can reasonably separate the "traditional" from the "political" -- they are too interwoven -- but even if you can I don't see why you should. Then again, let us remember (as always) the wisdom of Tom Lehrer: "The reason most folk songs are so atrocious is that they were written by the people." :) But now that I've offended all egalitarian sensibilities, here's the Left's chance to strike back: Why are there so few Conservative "political" and/or "folk", songs? Is it that rightwingers can't carry a tune? Or, something deeper & darker? I don't think it's that the conservatives have nothing to protest. They're always griping about something or other. Listen to Talk Radio. / On the other hand, is the premise simply untrue -- a definitional mirage? What about country music's rightist-populist-patriot subgenre -- does that count? |
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Subject: RE: folk song politics From: The Pooka Date: 12 Apr 03 - 05:00 PM I guess the Amos Parchment-and-Quill Principle :) is one good answer to my ideological-imbalance question. I dunno, though; the modern-day conservatives (so called, or miscalled) do Protest an awful lot, and not always with the greatest of erudition either. And they are by no means confined to society's Upper Crust. |
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Subject: RE: folk song politics From: dick greenhaus Date: 12 Apr 03 - 05:19 PM Folklore has, for the past several centuries, been a popularization tool by one or another political groups. In the early 1900s, Henry Ford was plugging American Square Dance as a demonstration of "down-home" right-wing values. In the late 1930s and 1940s, the Communist Party made a concerted effort to push "songs of the people." The paucity of right-wing songs is due more to the selectivity of collectors than the political leanings of the bulk of the "folk"--witness the general slant of country songs and popular hymns and gospel. It's hard to be more overtly conservative than "Farther Along" |
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Subject: RE: folk song politics From: mack/misophist Date: 12 Apr 03 - 05:51 PM Ignatius Loyolo said "I don't care who writes the speeches as long as I can write the songs". The wealthy pursue political ends with the tools they know best, influence and money. The poor are stuck with whatever they can find. In the last hundred years, I've heard of only 2 investment bankers who persued careers in music. |
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Subject: RE: folk song politics From: Amos Date: 12 Apr 03 - 05:52 PM I suggest a contest to come up with names for Conservative Folk Songs by today's standards, such as: I Walk the Bottom Line My Company, Right or Wrong They Don't Think Like We Do, And They're Wrong Follow the Leader This Land Is My Land When the Prices Go Up, Up Up.... Take Me Back to Wall Street Your Foolish Broker Will Call On You (Adding to that) Nashville Skyline Well, you get the idea. Seems to me they generally have different things on their mind! A |
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Subject: RE: folk song politics From: The Pooka Date: 12 Apr 03 - 06:02 PM Amos - LOL! hee hee (aaah, and if only 'twere still true that the Right is confined to the Rich -- they wouldn't win so many elections) Subterranean Bunker Blues (or, Saddam's Lament) |
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Subject: RE: folk song politics From: GUEST,Q Date: 12 Apr 03 - 06:07 PM Are there any folk songs for or by: The guy who runs a service station? A laundromat? A plumbing service? Chef at a restaurant? Accountant for a clothing store? Real estate salesman? Owns a used car lot? Technician in a power plant? Engineer in an oil refinery? Triple-XXX sex shop manager? Druggist at a Wal-Mart? Etc. |
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Subject: RE: folk song politics From: GUEST,Clint Keller Date: 12 Apr 03 - 06:12 PM As Amos says, "those who spend their days pursuing power and gain at the expense of others do not usually have the sensibility to be musicians, or the time to sing folk music." But they will use a song if they can. This Land is Your Land is a smugly conservative or a radical protest song depending on whether you sing the "no trespassing" and "shadow of the steeple" verses or not. But a folk song has to be singable primarily. Music first, philosophy second. I don't know how many folk have to sing a song before it qualifies, though. Clint |
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Subject: RE: folk song politics From: Rick Fielding Date: 12 Apr 03 - 06:41 PM Some of us here could ramble on for literally a book's worth. It's a noble and much-discussed subject, but let me just go way back to when I was about 14. I found an odd little 45 by Burl Ives called "Rodger Young". I really didn't know a whole lot about New York Folk Music politics at the time (in the next year I learned a TON!) Well....Burl Ives was obviously a folksinger, 'cause he'd sung dozens of trad songs on other records my parents had. Rodger Young was a decorated American war hero, so the song "glorified war". It was a catchy song....I liked it and played it over and over again. Within a year, I'd learned about the blacklist, and how Burl had "named names" to save his movie career. I also learned that many establishment Americans AND Canadians supported Hitler big time, and how everyday citizens refused to help many thousands of Jews who were running for their lives. I learned that the Communists and Socialists were the ONLY organized groups in America that were trying to put an end to lynchings and segregation. Boy, stuff like that will make you head towards Pete, Woody, and political music damn fast...Ha Ha! Simply a choice.....and the next step was making my OWN music. Cheers Rick |
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Subject: RE: folk song politics From: Amos Date: 12 Apr 03 - 06:45 PM Rick: Rodger Young was one of my favorites as a sprat, too. But I never got into the political curlicues behind it. I must take exception to the notion that Communists and Socialists....oh, wait...it was humor, no?? Or are you counting the ACLU and all the Nawthern Grden Clubs among the pinkos? Sigh...just keep thrashing the Beast and celebrating victory, amigos.... A |
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Subject: RE: folk song politics From: GUEST,Juanando del Castro Date: 12 Apr 03 - 06:46 PM The Right doesn't protest; it whines and postures. It's called Country Music. Strutting macho-men who somehow never served and women who dress like 24 hour bowling alleys were still around congratulating themselves on their patriotism and family values. |
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Subject: RE: folk song politics From: Rick Fielding Date: 12 Apr 03 - 06:52 PM Hi Amos. I spoke a bit too quickly there. The Communist Party and various Socialist parties are the only ones that I PERSONALLY had heard were trying for dis-armament, integration, and an end to the lynch laws. Certainly they are where Jewish folks felt most comfortable. Fill me in a bit about other GOOD alternatives if they're at yer fingertips. Cheers Rick |
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Subject: RE: folk song politics From: greg stephens Date: 12 Apr 03 - 07:01 PM You would expect folk music to be egalatarian in tone, given where it comes from. But it is often extremely bellicose, which you would also expect; and here it does tend to part company with song-writers in the folk revival, who tend to come mainly from the vaguely anti-war left. Woody Guthrie sang with perfect sincerity of Flying Fortresses and Uncle Sam, but he was more or less the last of the old school. Those who have followed in his footsteps (in terms of writing songs with guitars) tend to a quite different set of political values. The modern "folk-singer" has never been happy with the gung-ho songs (or the hunting songs, for that matter), however much they suited the "folk" a generation or two back. |
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Subject: RE: folk song politics From: Gareth Date: 12 Apr 03 - 07:12 PM So far a very American view point. This side of the pond, well tends to be more historical perspective. Try ( and I've just done a 15 hour shift and am too 'knackered' to put up the Blicky's) The Blackleg Miner Byker Hill Cosher Bailey Three Score and Ten Greshford The Colliers Wife etc And theres that Max Boyce classic " Diuw its Hard" (Correct spelling) all of wich are in the DT Thats leaving out the McColl classics on Joe Stalin and Uncle Ho ! Possibly, and it's only a thought, was Folk Music in it's basic form the only means of getting the point over ? Gareth " We're going to hang out the washing, On the Siegfried Line |
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Subject: RE: folk song politics From: The Pooka Date: 12 Apr 03 - 07:37 PM Q - still tryin' to loosen up those cobblestones, eh? :) "Are there any folk songs for or by: The guy who runs a service station? A laundromat? A plumbing service?...[etc.]" Naaah; those boring guys don't Protest, they just Whine and Posture. See, true Folk music is always for *my* Folks. If *your* folks take a different view, well, y'know, then they just ain't the real Folks. :) You gotta keep up on which foot is currently shod. Not to mention whose ox Al gored. / Woops! LOOK out! Peasants with Pitchforks, comin' over the hill!! Clint Keller - "...But a folk song has to be singable primarily." Hey! What you got against early Dylan? :) |
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Subject: RE: folk song politics From: GUEST,Q Date: 12 Apr 03 - 07:38 PM "Where Jewish folks felt most comfortable." The Jewish people of the 1940s-1960s I was aware of were solidly middle class and conservative in their politics (albeit with a Democratic Party flavor). This was in mid-America, but I don't believe the American Jewish middle class anywhere (except their sometimes wayward kids) ever had anything to do with the parties and programs of the extreme left. |
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Subject: RE: folk song politics From: The Pooka Date: 12 Apr 03 - 07:41 PM Who's this Kosher Bailey? One of the Dublin Red-Diaper Babies, is my guess... |
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Subject: RE: folk song politics From: The Pooka Date: 12 Apr 03 - 07:46 PM Q - I think Rick Fielding may be referring primarily to politics in & around the New York City Jewish community, and going back further than the '40s. If so, I think he is quite right. And that poltical-cultural legacy continues, albeit in a diluted condition, today in groups such as Arbeiter Ring/Workmen's Circle. |
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Subject: Lyr Add: NATIONAL BROTHERHOOD WEEK (Tom Lehrer) From: Gareth Date: 12 Apr 03 - 07:50 PM Mmmm ! Lehrer Anybody ?? Oh, the white folks hate the black folks, And the black folks hate the white folks; To hate all but the right folks Is an old established rule. But during National Brotherhood Week, National Brotherhood Week, Lena Horne and Sheriff Clark are dancing cheek to cheek. It's fun to eulogize The people you despise As long as you don't let 'em in your school. Oh, the poor folks hate the rich folks, And the rich folks hate the poor folks. All of my folks hate all of your folks, It's American as apple pie. But during National Brotherhood Week, National Brotherhood Week, New Yorkers love the Puerto Ricans 'cause it's very chic. Step up and shake the hand Of someone you can't stand, You can tolerate him if you try! Oh, the Protestants hate the Catholics And the Catholics hate the Protestants, And the Hindus hate the Moslems, And everybody hates the Jews. But during National Brotherhood Week, National Brotherhood Week, It's National Everyone-Smile-At-One-Another-Hood Week. Be nice to people who Are inferior to you. It's only for a week, so have no fear; Be grateful that it doesn't last all year! Pooka - Shame on you - Click 'Ere Gareth |
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Subject: RE: folk song politics From: The Pooka Date: 12 Apr 03 - 07:58 PM YES!!! Hurrah for Tom Lehrer; for Cosher Bailey (and his Daughter :); and for Gareth who put up the Blickie despite bein' in his Knackers!! Thanks Gareth. Yer right, we were being altogether too USA! USA! in our analyses, here. |
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Subject: RE: folk song politics From: Leadfingers Date: 12 Apr 03 - 08:02 PM The oldest REAL folk song in my rep is The Cutty Wren which dates back to Wat Tyler and the Peasants Revolt of fourteen ninety or whatever. How political do you want to get with the tradition ? There has always been a strong element of 'Social Comment' in the tradition. And the revivalists of the fifties and sixties (at least in U.K.)just happened to be somewhat leftwing. There are still writers like Ron Shuttlelworth who lean very much to the right in the songs they put out. The folk song movement has always been (and I hope will continue)very political. |
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Subject: RE: folk song politics From: GUEST,Q Date: 12 Apr 03 - 08:06 PM "You gotta keep up on which foot is currently shod." Yer right, I wouldn't want to step in the big middle of a cowpie with the wrong (er, right?) foot. I think I had better effect a retreat before I say something that gets me flamed by a methane explosion. |
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Subject: RE: folk song politics From: The Pooka Date: 12 Apr 03 - 08:30 PM "...retreat before I say something that gets me flamed by a methane explosion." What, is Mr. 'Catspaw going to join us on this thread? :) Leadfingers, hey thanks. Fifties & sixties revival, certainly same here in the U.S. I'd say. Ron Shuttlelworth, that's interesting indeed - see, I talk through me hat a lot, but I didn't know of him. Is his material on the web? |
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Subject: RE: folk song politics From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 12 Apr 03 - 08:50 PM That Cuttie Wren link with the Peasants Revolt is I believe extremely suspect. We've had at least one thread about it here, and there seems no real reason to believe there is any connection. Still it's a good song, and the story adds colouyr to it when it's been sung. In fact by now the story is part of our folklore, so we should cherish it. Trying to read long past history in terms of the left-right political sprectrum is also pretty suspect at times. You can't really neatly allocate disputes about religion and national identity in that kind of way, and you get all kind of odd combinations and mixtures. A lot of Black Americans and Native Americans fought against the American Revolution, for example. At various people struggling for workers rights have been viciously opposed to immigrants of the wrong racial make-up, "coolies" and suchlike, and this gets reflected in the songs sometimes. The same goes even more extensivekly for sexist attitudes. People make up songs about what is important to them and to the people to whom and with whom they sing. Songs normally aren't about "politics" as such most times - what they do tend to deal with in this way are the hardships associated with struggles of one sort or another. The political labels and connections are pretty secondary. Most of those mill-owners would probably have been Liberals. |
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Subject: RE: folk song politics From: The Pooka Date: 12 Apr 03 - 08:54 PM Nice, McGrath. Irrefutable, as usual. Thanks. |
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Subject: RE: folk song politics From: Padre Date: 12 Apr 03 - 09:07 PM The political use of folk music is one of the reasons I have always liked old time string band music, and especially Blind Alfred Reed. |
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Subject: RE: folk song politics From: GUEST,Clint Keller Date: 12 Apr 03 - 09:11 PM Pooka 30-odd years ago I used to sing my kids to sleep with Blowin' in the Wind and Mr Tambourine Man; would that be early Dylan? And if it is does it tell you something about singability, or something about my singing? Maybe it just means I had strange kids.They also liked Naomi Wise and Nobody Knows You when You're Down and Out... Clint |
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Subject: RE: folk song politics From: The Pooka Date: 12 Apr 03 - 09:23 PM Clint - HAR HAR! It tells me you had good taste & I bet your kids do too. As the Twig is Bent...Good lullabies - "...With all memory and fate, driven deep beneath the waves, let me forget about today until tomorrow..." Wife & I always sang our darling Onlychild to sleep, 20-odd years ago, with "Will Ye Go Lassie Go", which I think qualifies as Nonpolitical. One night, around the age of 3, doesn't he suddenly join in for the first time & sing the whole thing with us, letter-and-note-perfect! // Now he's 21, graduating college, and building his Love a bower near yon pure crystal fountain... |
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Subject: RE: folk song politics From: toadfrog Date: 13 Apr 03 - 12:52 AM I agree with Dick Greenhaus. The people who revived folk music and linked it with the Left accomplished marvelous things, but they did not prove that folk music and the Left are identical ideas. Earlier in the Century, it was linked with Nationalist movements, the nationalists also accomplished a great deal. Sharp was greatly pleased to discover traces of old England in Appalachia. Lomax was pleased to find Black influences. Both accomplished great things. But as for Larry's view that songs are folk music, regardless of their origin, solely because he likes their political tendency -- Foo! |
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Subject: RE: folk song politics From: Gurney Date: 13 Apr 03 - 07:10 AM The folk lot have always been political protesters, always mostly left, in my experience, although mostly only protesting in song. Not always, of course. Is Ron Shuttlelworth the same bloke as Ron Shuttleworth, longtime Bagman for Coventry Mummers and doyen of 'Attics to Addicts,' the concertina dissemination movement? |
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Subject: RE: folk song politics From: InOBU Date: 13 Apr 03 - 07:27 AM Folkies.. for an example of living folk tradition, see the post about the New Song for NY Firefighters... Larry |
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Subject: RE: folk song politics From: belfast Date: 13 Apr 03 - 08:17 AM A thread about folk song and politics and no one has yet mentioned Ireland? For this relief much thanks and let us be grateful for small mercies. |
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Subject: RE: folk song politics From: The Pooka Date: 13 Apr 03 - 09:39 AM belfast - yer welcome. :) |
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Subject: RE: folk song politics From: dick greenhaus Date: 13 Apr 03 - 09:44 AM It's difficult to find a more conservative body of song than the repertoire of the Copper Family. |
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Subject: RE: folk song politics From: Fay Date: 13 Apr 03 - 10:18 AM I think maybe the scenes in England and America are quite, quite different. There doesn't seem to be the same emphasis on pre revival material on the American side of the pond. I agree, the Coppers were/are quite conservative in their material, and are certainly not protesting in a direct or strong way in any particular direction. I don't agree that folk music is, by nature, linked with the left(ish) politics. I think it is associated with that group of people now, due to cultural circumstance and the associations they have given the genra making it less appealing for other groups to take it on. Looking at the scene and cultural setting of the music (which is surely what defines it as 'folk muisc') rather than the material in itself we can see differences over the years which indicates to me, that this liberal link is a phase which could easily pass, rather than a real bond. The men only venues (ie the pub) for singing sessions in East Anglia in years gone by are hardly a liberal all welcome setting. Fox hunt dinners run by the hierachy in rural communities, are neither earth and peace loving in structure or reason for meeting. Etc... Will we just gain a new body of material from this phase and watch the folk tradition wend its weary way forward into areas and social scenes? |
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Subject: RE: folk song politics From: Fay Date: 13 Apr 03 - 10:25 AM Just thought - to add to that last idea, In England there is a common cry of where are all the young singers? There are loads of young singers around, I am one of them, and am quite bored of people ignoring that we are all here. What there is a dearth of, however, is young singer-songwriters, and those that there are aren't writing particually political stuff. Is this a sign that change within the scene is already happening? |
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Subject: RE: folk song politics From: Leadfingers Date: 13 Apr 03 - 10:26 AM Gurney--- Yes he is. |
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Subject: RE: folk song politics From: Hester Date: 13 Apr 03 - 01:59 PM Very interesting thread. Just a couple thoughts: Greg said: >>>The modern "folk-singer" has never been happy with the gung-ho songs (or the hunting songs, for that matter)<<< Historian Roger Manning, in his book "Hunters and Poachers" notes that poaching was often a form of social resistance and protest to hierarchical land-use practices in the late medieval and early modern period in England, and this political perspective made its way into many of the hunting ballads (and of course, the Robin Hood ballads). And while I'm aware of the Left's involvement in the folk-revival movement in Britain in the 50s, there is also, unfortunately, sometimes a frightening nationalist/racist fringe attracted to concepts of "folk" and "tradition". Certainly, the Nazis drew upon Germanic "folk" traditions and imagery. I run an on-line Robin Hood discussion group and I'm horrified that, on a couple of occasions, white supremacists have tried to join the group, perceiving Robin as a racially specific "Anglo-Saxon" hero. Ick! And, as a pagan, I'm always leary of those who insist on practicing a supposedly "pure" religious tradition, such as Asatru or Odinism, rather than a more eclectic, cross-cultural one. And then, there's the infamous misogyny of Cecil Sharpe (although I've read somewhere that the "all-male" Morris stance actually came not from Sharp himself, but from an associate who had links to the Nazi party -- sorry, can't remember the man's name -- does anyone know who I'm thinking of?). Indeed, recent academic research, such as some of the papers collected in the bookStep Change, suggests a link between Nazi folk "scholarship" and the English Folk Dance revival. Cheers, Hester |
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Subject: RE: folk song politics From: GUEST,diggy-lo Date: 13 Apr 03 - 02:24 PM One of the first songs I ever learned was 'Which Side Are You On' by Florence Reese about miners trying to unionize. It was based on a traditional Gospel song.I hardly think of either as a folk song. Wouldn't most people have learned either from books? Hardly part of the oral/aural tradition. bev |
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Subject: Lyr Add: THE ONE ON THE RIGHT IS ON..(Johnny Cash) From: GUEST,Bardford Date: 13 Apr 03 - 02:50 PM Here's Johnny Cash on the topic:
THE ONE ON THE RIGHT IS ON THE LEFT
1. There once was a musical troupe,
CHORUS: Well, the one on the right was—on the left,
2. This musical aggregation
CHORUS: Well, the one on the right was—on the left,
3. When the curtain had ascended,
CHORUS: Well, the one on the right was—on the bottom,
4. Now, this should be a lesson:
CHORUS: Now, the one on the left works in a bank, |
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Subject: RE: folk song politics From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 13 Apr 03 - 03:40 PM Rolf Gardiner was involved for a while in the Morris revival, and certainly had strong links with the pre-war extreme Right. He was never an officer of the (all male) Morris Ring (he did speak at a couple of meetings), if my recollection of the interminable and sometimes strident correspondence on the subject in English Dance and Song during the '80s and '90s is accurate, and after a while he wandered off into Ruralism and neo-Paganism (Odinism, I think, but I could be wrong about that). In the 1930s, a great many people dabbled in various mixtures of nazism and fascism, into which all sorts of otherwise innocent things like paganism, Morris dancing and even nudism were often dragged, until the cold light of reality intervened. Sharp himself was not guilty of this. Although, like us all, he had his share of faults, I wouldn't characterise Sharp as particularly misogynist -though it has been fashionable to accuse him of all sorts of things in the past, his political leanings were more-or-less Christian Socialist- and he died ten years before the foundation in 1934 of the Morris Ring. His famous falling-out with Mary Neal was a conflict of personalities, not sexes. Georgina Boyes has done valuable work (and Step Change is very much worth consulting), but I can't help but feel that her attitude to Sharp is distorted by her political viewpoint, as was Dave Harker's. To an extent, the anti-Sharp stance was a typical iconoclastic reaction against the unqualified admiration of his followers (in particular, his biographer, Maud Karpeles), but he is beginning to be re-evaluated. There does seem to be some way yet to go before a properly objective assessment is arrived at, but see for example Mike Yates' article, Cecil Sharp in America at the Musical Traditions website. |
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Subject: RE: folk song politics From: Rick Fielding Date: 13 Apr 03 - 04:02 PM My God Malcolm "Nude Morris dancing"?! It's not just the sticks and swords that concern me, it's all that violent "up and down" jumping! On the other hand....I can picture a rather fascinating variation on all that "handkerchief grabbing". Cheers Rick |
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Subject: RE: folk song politics From: Roughyed Date: 13 Apr 03 - 04:57 PM A rough and ready definition of traditional 'folk' songs is that they are peasant or workers songs (I don't want to open up any cans of academic worms here. As such they reflected the realities of working peoples lives. That included in England strikes, riots, Peterloo, but also the sort of stuff that still fills the tabloids such as 'orrible murders and idealised views of things such as war, hunting and so on. I think that in England the revival that happened in the fifties and sixties, which is still what formed the bulk of our current clubs and festivals, was left wing generally. I think this is partly due to good old commies like Ewan McColl and A L Lloyd but also to the way that young people at the time tended to be on the left. Certainly when I was becoming aware of folk music in the late sixties, the fact that it was working class music was of interest to me as a socialist, but the main thing that hit me was its sheer beauty. I don't think we should overemphasise the political side - hey, I love Wagner's music. |
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Subject: RE: folk song politics From: Hester Date: 13 Apr 03 - 05:12 PM Hi, Malcolm: Thank you! Yes, it was indeed Rolf Gardiner I was thinking of (glad to know it wasn't some strange false memory). Poor Odin -- he tends to attract some less than desirable worshippers even today. So then, would you say it was the later "Morris Ring", rather than Sharp, who were responsible for the "all-male" rhetoric? And not specifically Gardiner as I'd previously read? I'd like to learn more about the Sharp-Neal fallout and its ramifications for the folk movement. Can you suggest some reading on the topic? Off to read your 'Sharp in America' link now. Cheers, Hester |
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