Help: Please Identify This Song-Red Rosy Bush

Subject: Help: Please Identify This Song
From: pyewacket
Date: 18 Apr 03 - 03:06 PM

Can anyone identify this song and perhaps supply additional lyrics?
Thank you.

I'll plant me a red and rosy bush
I'll plant me a green willow tree
To prove to all, who come this away
That you have forsaken me
That you have forsaken me.

O hush lest you, break my heart
For no one will I cry
Ten thousand lovers, have already parted
So why not you and I
So why not you and I.

AT

Subject: RE: Help: Please Identify This Song
From: Allan C.
Date: 18 Apr 03 - 04:03 PM

A recording I have of a very similarly versed song is called "It' Hard To Love" and was collected in the Appalachians. The notes I have say that it is common to use any number of "floating verses" to fit the lovely tune. I'll post the lyrics I have in a separate posting.

Subject: RE: Help: Please Identify This Song
From: Allan C.
Date: 18 Apr 03 - 04:07 PM

See also The Red Rosy Bush in the DT.

Subject: Lyr Add: IT'S HARD TO LOVE
From: Allan C.
Date: 18 Apr 03 - 04:25 PM

IT'S HARD TO LOVE

It's hard to love when you can't be loved,
It's hard to love in vain.
But the worst of love is a broken heart,
Did you ever feel the pain?
Did you ever feel the pain, dear one?
Did you ever feel the pain?
The worst of love is a broken heart,
Did you ever feel the pain?

Look up, look down this lonesome road,
Hang down your head and cry.
The best of friends must part sometime,
So why not you and I?
Why not you and I dear one?
Why not you and I?
The best of friends must part sometime,
So why not you and I?

____________

As sung by Eunice Yeatts MacAlexander at her home in Meadows of Dan, Patrick County, Virginia August 22 1980

(Notes as found on CD titled, "Far In the Mountains" Vol I & II -- available through CAMSCO
___________

The tune for this is somewhat different from that of "The Red Rosy Bush".

Subject: RE: Help: Please Identify This Song
From: pyewacket
Date: 18 Apr 03 - 06:16 PM

Dear Allan;
Thanks so much for your help! I suspect though that "It's hard To Love" is not the same song as I do know the melody of our song in question and it just doesn't seem to fit. This is also the case with
"The Red Rosy Bush" in the DT. I don't know if it would help anyone but I heard the song sung on an episode of "the Waltons" many years
ago.         
pyewacket

Subject: RE: Help: Please Identify This Song-Red Rosy Bush
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 06:08 PM

I crosslinked the Red Rosy Bush songs, but talke a look at Malcolm's post in the Little Turtle Dove thread. If it confuses Malcolm, it HAS to be confusing! The "Red Rosey Bush recorded by Belafonte and Jo Stafford is quite different from this "Rosy Bush."
I don't think I'm going to attempt cross-links on "turtle doves" yet.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Help: Please Identify This Song-Red Rosy Bush
From: masato sakurai
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 08:21 PM

Google searches for plant me a "red and rosy bush" and hush "lest you break my heart" led me to the same three Waltons sites, where the origins (title and other info) are not identified. The song seems to be found in The Waltons only, at least on the web. The lyrics below are copied from The Walton's Mountain Songs, Poetry, and Prayers.

I plant me a red and rosy bush,
I plant me a green willow tree.
To prove to all who come this way,
That she has forsaken me.

When I was young and I was gay,
I loved her long and well.
But the sum that loving has brought me,
No human touch can tell.
Oh, seen yond lonesome little turtle dove,
He is swinging on that yonder vine.
As I do mourn for mine,
Oh, hush you lest you break my heart.
For no one will I cry.
Ten thousand lovers have already parted,
So why not you and I.

~Masato

Subject: RE: Help: Please Identify This Song-Red Rosy Bush
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 08:34 PM

Bless you, Masato.

Good night, John-Boy.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Help: Please Identify This Song-Red Rosy Bush
From: Little Robyn
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 08:42 PM

The second verse of Allan C's version has words from
"Lonesome road" or "Long Lonesome Road".
Both are in the DT but slightly different from the one I remember in the early 60s. I just can't remember who the singer was then.

Subject: RE: Help: Please Identify This Song-Red Rosy Bush
From: Allan C.
Date: 19 Apr 03 - 10:57 PM

Ah...clear evidence of the folk process!

P.S. to LR: Lots of people have released "Lonesome Road" over the years. In the '60's Duane Eddy had an innovative instrumental version and Don Gibson had a nice one just a bit earlier. Jim Neighbors even sang it on "The Andy Griffith Show".

Subject: Red Rosy Bush?
From: pyewacket
Date: 20 Apr 03 - 02:44 AM

My thanks to all who contributed their generous efforts in helping me to discover the origin of my song search and some additional verses.
I cannot decide whether to title it "Red Rosy Bush" or as I have always thought of it, "Forsaken."
Good night, Mary Ellen!

Subject: RE: Help: Please Identify This Song-Red Rosy Bush
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 20 Apr 03 - 11:53 PM

http://www.the-waltons.com/season1.html#The_Love_Story

It appears to have been written by Jerry Goldsmith
THE LOVE STORY (18 Jan 1973)
Writer: Earl Hamner
Director: Lee Philips
Music: Jerry Goldsmith

http://us.imdb.com/Credits?0068149

Other music credits for the first season are given to:
Alexander Courage (some episodes)
Jerry Goldsmith (theme) (some episodes)
Arthur Morton (I) (some episodes)

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Help: Please Identify This Song-Red Rosy Bush
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jan 13 - 12:23 PM

I remember it well from "The Love Story" episode 17 season 1 of the Waltons--Richard Thomas (John Boy) sang it with the dulcimer to Sian Barbara Allen (Jenny) his first love. It was very poignant. She was in the Thanksgiving episode as well.

Subject: RE: Help: Please Identify This Song-Red Rosy Bush
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 12 Jan 13 - 12:32 PM

You waited 10 years to tell us that ?


Dave H

Subject: RE: Help: Please Identify This Song-Red Rosy Bush
From: Stringsinger
Date: 12 Jan 13 - 09:15 PM

Jerry Goldsmith's daughter Ellen is a folklore student. She plays the autoharp.
I played autoharp on the very first episodes of the Waltons, also the pilot, The Homecoming (A Christmas special). She played on the series later.

Jerry would have been familiar with folk song material. He could have easily put together a song.

Subject: RE: Help: Please Identify This Song-Red Rosy Bush
From: GUEST,Guest_M
Date: 28 Dec 16 - 05:08 PM

John Jacob Niles recorded a song called "The Turtle Dove" that contained these lyrics:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o87otpnlGmQ

Subject: RE: Help: Please Identify This Song-Red Rosy Bush
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 05:42 PM

Hii !!! The song is turtle dove by John Jacob niles !!!

Subject: RE: Help: Please Identify This Song-Red Rosy Bush
From: leeneia
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 11:24 AM

Thanks for the info, Guest and Guest M.

I thought I'd try to get the right lyrics from that video, but I give up. Sometimes the words are completely unintelligible. And the melody - hard to believe that a simple country person created that.

I found a tune on ABCnotation.com that seems related, and it's free of the copyright problems that I find with Niles' things. I've made a MIDI of it and will transpose it down. (The highest note is the A above the staff. What!?)

Subject: Lyr Add: Turtle Dove (John Jacob Niles)
From: cnd
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 12:09 PM

Leenia, here's what I heard from the YouTube video linked by Guest_M on 28 Dec 16.

Turtle dove, turtle dove, oh my little turtle dove
The one whose song you sing
Reminds my heart of that pretty, pretty girl
Who wore my love's* silver ring
Who wore my love's* silver ring

I'll plant me a red and a rosy bush
I'll plant me a weep' willow tree
To prove to all who come this way
That she has forsaken me
That she has forsaken me

When I was young and I was gay
I loved her long and well
But the sorrow this loving brought
No human tongue can tell
No human tongue can tell

Oh, sing, yon lonesome little turtle dove
He swings on yonder vine
Lamenting for his own true love
As I do mourn for mine
As I do mourn for mine

Oh hush you lest you break my heart
For no more will I cry
Ten thousand loves have parted
Then why not you and I
Then why not you and I

*I have doubts that he says "love's silver ring" -- the verse sounds more like "blue silver" or "luve silver" or "lusilver" but "love" makes more sense than any of those to me

Subject: RE: Help: Please Identify This Song-Red Rosy Bush
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 01:11 PM

Sounds like he's saying 'wore m'Iza's silver ring. (My Iza's.) It's a tough one.

Subject: RE: Help: Please Identify This Song-Red Rosy Bush
From: BrooklynJay
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 06:05 PM

In another recording by Niles on YouTube here it definitely sounds to me like he's saying "little silver ring".


Jay

Subject: RE: Help: Please Identify This Song-Red Rosy Bush
From: leeneia
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 11:18 PM

I hear it as "good silver ring." I recall people using the phrase "good jewelry" to mean fine and expensive.

I think the second line is "the mournful song you sing."

Over here we have a bird named the mourning dove, so the word mournful isn't that unexpected.

Subject: RE: Help: Please Identify This Song-Red Rosy Bush
From: BrooklynJay
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 01:33 PM

Check out the other YouTube link I posted above. It is a different recording by Niles, and (IMO) the words are easier to make out.

The second line is definitely "mournful song".

And I stand by my opinion that it is "little silver ring".

It's always helpful to have another recording of the same song, by the same artist, to compare.

Listen to both of them. You may agree with me (or you may not).


Jay

Subject: RE: Help: Please Identify This Song-Red Rosy Bush
From: leeneia
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 11:29 AM

I am more convinced than ever that it's good silver ring. But either word works.

Subject: RE: Help: Please Identify This Song-Red Rosy Bush
From: chrisgl
Date: 18 Aug 21 - 02:55 PM

Not to muddy the waters but I have just come across this version of "Let No Man Steal Your Thyme"

Look at the last two verses

Come all you lads and lasses gay,
That flourish in your prime, prime,
Beware, beware, keep your garden clear,
And let no man steal your thyme, thyme,
Let no man steal your thyme.

For when your thyme is past and gone
He'll care no more for you, you.
And every place that your thyme was waste
Shall all spread o'er with rue, rue,
Shall all spread o'er with rue.

The gardener's son, being standing by,
Three flowers he gave to me, me.
The pink, the blue and the violet too
And the red, red rosy tree, tree,
And the red, red rosy tree.

Now I'll pull off that red rose cup
And plant a willow tree, tree,
That all the world may plainly see
How my love slighted me, me
How my love slighted me.

Unknown Singer (Patrick Green of Ballinalee, Co. Longford

Here he is singing it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUTK--Xyp9g

chris :-)

Subject: RE: Help: Please Identify This Song-Red Rosy Bush
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Aug 21 - 11:54 AM

Precisely, Chris
And this song is British and can be traced back to the seventeenth century at least. See my recent article on its evolution on Mustrad,
The Seeds of Thyme.
Someone should write an appendix to the article mapping out all of the other places the stanzas have spread to, as in this case.

Subject: RE: Help: Please Identify This Song-Red Rosy Bush
From: leeneia
Date: 20 Aug 21 - 12:06 PM

Thanks Chrisgl. The idea of the lover replacing the red bush with willow to show abandonment makes sense. Willows are often associated with sorrow or death. Better yet, a weeping willow.

Do the British Isles have crepe myrtle? I think of it when I hear this song.   Here's an image:

hope this works