Are all folkies over fifty?

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: GUEST,Dawnna
Date: 20 Apr 03 - 03:21 AM

Some younger people like folk music. My fifteen year old daughter likes Celtic folk music, in addition to the top 40 stuff! She performed a folk song for her high school talent show. She has also had two recent opportunities to sing in front of her peers, and chose to sing folk songs (Celtic) both times. The kids listening to her seem to like it. It's not much, but it is surprising, isn't it?

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: mutineer
Date: 20 Apr 03 - 03:56 AM

Yeah, I'm a folkie and I'm only 18.
I have a Celtic folk band going as well and we're all 18 & 19. Check us out : http://www.mutinymusic.cjb.net

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: Gillie
Date: 20 Apr 03 - 04:09 AM

I haven't quite reached 50 yet. My view is that it is up to us to pass the music down to the next generation/s. They are tomorrow's future. Look at the Brat Pack for instance up and coming they certainly are. People like Oige, Damien Barber, Kate Rusby, Mike Newman etc. Etc. Yes folk is still alive!!

Go to a folk festival and see how many young people there really is - O.K. the over 50's still go and they probably out number. Remember the slogan for the Musician's Union "Keep music alive" It is up to us.

It was the best thing that happened to me at the age of 17 and I'm still enjoying and revealing in the music that is still around today. More than likely I'll go out singing!!

Regards,

Gillie

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 20 Apr 03 - 04:49 AM

I'm another who thinks that there may be a shift in interests within folk music amongst younger people rather than a decline in numbers of younger people.

I think that the folk club scene is less appealing and that traditional ballad singing may be loosing out but the instrumental side is perhaps gaining. There seems to me to be far more people looking beyond singing and strumming chords on guitar now. Sessions also seem more popular.

I went to a session a couple of weeks ago where I'd guess I was one of two over 40s in the room and the majority were in thier 20s. I didn't feel as if I was being looked upon as an "old fart" so I don't think there is any reason to believe the younger ones don't want the older ones around - just a case of enjoy thier music and session for what it is. This (almost entierely instrumental) one had Irish, English, French, blues, etc.

If there really are shifts, perhaps it is because a greater range of folk music and of instruments are easily accessible rather than an age thing. Perhaps people are finding some of the tunes and dance music more exciting than traditional ballads. Perhaps people are finding joining in more pleasurable than performing a spot of 3 in a folk club. I know I do.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 20 Apr 03 - 11:27 PM

At 57 I qualify as an old folkie, and most of the people who gather at O'Hurleys who are of that certain age know the Folk Scare songs word for word. But I do notice that Old Time music is bringing a whole new generation into the fold, and our contra dances are so full of the local high school and college students that we now have to pipe the music into the lower floor of our dance hall, in order not to violate the fire regulations. And our Irish and OT jams are evenly matched throughout the ages. The fiddler taking a cut against my banjo or guitar can be anywhere from 15 to 50. And those who don't play, are clogging up a storm. (In fact, our best local clogger is now teaching a class with a bunch of the youngsters, just prior to the jam on Thursday nights).

It may be that the words of most of the protest songs which made up so much of the music of that era, now sound so dated, whereas the music is ageless. And if they feel like it, the youngsters can make up their own words...

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: Gurney
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 12:24 AM

Does it really matter? Any music survives purely by its merit and popularity, and I mean it's popularity with singers/players.

Songs like 'Pearly Shells' and 'Ten Guitars' achieved huge popularity with (some) audiences, but are there any performers who will do them, except on request?
I feel that a lot of songs that 'we' like have too much relevence and power to ever completely die, and even if clubs and festivals go under, someone like Lonnie Donovan will start the circle over again. Hope the Mudcat lyrics are on hard-copy, acid-free paper for the researchers, supposing the spoilers have wrecked the Web by then.

This missive is a little disjointed. I'm trying to say that I think folk performers will go on doing their thing, and the VENUES will change. Hope it is less generational in future.
Chris, WELL over 50.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: alanabit
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 03:42 AM

I am glad to hear it is happening in some other places. I know that it is alive among some of the ethnic minorities in Germany. If there is a wedding, say Greek, Turkish or Polish, they are likely to have music and dancing from their culture. German folk music is the last thing you would expect to hear at a German wedding - and sadly, the idea of hearing English folk music at an English wedding would raise only a snigger of ridicule.
I have made it clear enough elsewhere that I have no nostalgia for the Irish Pub scene. One thing did impress me though. If you get a group of Irish guys sitting around after hours, they are quite likely to start singing some of their songs. Some will be old and some will be new. The tradition is alive and well there because it is something which has remained unbroken in their culture. Get a group of English people sitting around, and most would be embarrassed to admit that they knew even one folk song. They usually regard it as quaint and silly.
The practice of coming together and making music - learning old songs and tunes, changing them and adding new ones is practised by only a tiny minority. It is encouraging to hear that it is flourishing in other parts of the world, but I don't see much evidence that it is surviving in Germany or England, the two countries which I know best. I do not really want to get all my music from machines - but it puts me in a very small minority!

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 04:57 AM

Granted, it's a subculture in England, but it's a lively enough subculture, involving several generations - when people who are involved in folk music have weddings it's pretty common for the music to be actively present. And that doesn't even just mean people who are active performers.

It's a hybrid sort of music, with the different traditions mixing in, but that's how its always beeen really.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 05:37 AM

I'm over 50 and organize a folk club in the USA. You cannot "run" a folk club - you need too much help.
Our problem is that there is such an enormous wealth of talent out there looking for places to play, it makes it difficult to decide who to hire. We try to balance our program between young/older/male/female/traditional/contemporary performers so that we can present the broad spectrum of acoustic music. In the past year 66% of our performers were under 50. 45% were under 40. 17% were under 30.
The music is alive.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: GUEST,tooligan
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 06:17 AM

I listen to my son's band writing their songs and can't help thinking this is Folk Music of today, even though it is electric and loud. The Beatles wrote great folk songs and presented them in the style of the day as have many other bands. The English traditional songs are will survive if people want them to survive just like most other things in life. Here in Scotland, we don't have a problem, we just play music and are proud of our culture from wherever it came.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: fiddler
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 06:45 AM

Young folkies do exists - Look a tthe british festival scene, I judged some excelent music in St albans recently all musicians and singers under 25.

AND

As I reach 50 next week then I'm not over 50 for another year and a week!!!!

Not Desponant but despotic of Reading UK!

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: Mugwump
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 06:46 AM

No - I am 47!

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 07:01 AM

folk music doesn't come and go it just changes shape. as it did in the forties fifties and sixties and is still doing. i'm just some punk that sees the same in leadbelly, pete seeger, pentangle and james yorkston, godspeed you! black emperor, lambchop. In my experience, the over-50s 'folkies' are the ones who appreciate tradition over innovation. fair enough, but folk music is the music of the here and now, of people in their everyday, in their human condition. and always was. and as we change the music changes. but ultimately it will always come back to somebody expressing their situation with a song that is easily understood. like the new Good Charlotte song.
Age 23 1/2

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: GUEST,connie
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 08:33 AM

No, I'm 49! I recently became introduced to folk music & love it.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: GUEST,Eliza C
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 08:47 AM

I think if you like folk music you are a folkie no matter what age you are. It is pretty confusing to start giving every new generation a new "tag", and stops the continuity that people who are interested in traditional music want and promote.
Guest who was complaining about British singer-songwriter antipathy-The British folk scene has resisted the introduction of singer-songwriters because it started from an interest in the traditions of this country, and to a larger extent believes quite rightly that singer-songwriters can get their platform anywhere, whereas that is not the case with our endangered traditional music. The scene has now moved on and changed with the times as it was bound to all along and there are still some people who wish it wasn't so; I am afraid that although I don't always agree with them I can't blame them and neither should you.
When it becomes easier to sing trad songs at your average open-mic night we will all shut up. Til then, if no-one makes the distinction and speaks their mind about it we could inadvertantly lose a lot of material and take ourselves back forty years to when information about our culture was extremely hard to come by. The trade of the singer-songwriter is also much more reliant on the cult of personality, the ego, and some think that traditional music is antithesis to that.
Surely that doesn't deserve that kind of antagonistic post? If you think about it it makes sense.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: GUEST,angel
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 09:15 AM

Sharyn, I'm wondering if the Scottish tunes you learnt were accompanied by dance as well. Dance music always seems to be me to be a bit repetitive (I used to be a techno DJ too), but I guess that's because it is something to shake your booty to, rather than sit and ponder the inner depths of. Its not meant as a criticism, bits and bobs just lose their original meaning/effect when taken out of the context they were written in.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: CET
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 09:45 AM

It's interesting how the bigotry and small-mindedness is coming not from the "elitist" traditional music gang, but from people like GUEST who seem to be bubbling over with contempt for anyone who prefers traditional music. Speaking for myself, I gravitate to traditional music because it is more interesting, more beautiful and more powerful than most stuff available now. However, it's important to stress the qualifying word "most". All the great traditional songs were created by somebody, even Lord Randall. As somebody else pointed out, the traditional songs we know today have survived because they were important enough to somebody to learn and pass them on. There are fine songwriters active today, just as there have always been, and I will go out of my way to listen to them, and I will spend more money than I should on their CDs. However, what I do not have time for is the whiney, self-indulgent, tuneless, and musically ignorant type of musician that is so common at some festivals. These are the folks that, if you ask them if they know any traditional songs, would look at you as if you had suggested they might want to indulge in unnatural acts with small, furry animals.

I also don't understand why, to follow up on an earlier post on this thread, if you like Ricky Skaggs, Roseanne Cash or Kathy Moffat (as I do), it should be necessary to denigrate sea shanties or traditional music from, say, the British Isles or New England.

Anyway, back to the thread topic. I have sometimes found it depressing to find myself, at 46, among the younger crowd at folk events. We don't have too many folk clubs in Canada, so I can't comment on the folk club scene, but I have noticed the phenomenon at various festivals. However, there are some encouraging signs too. If you want to see a good mix of ages, go the Celtic College in Goderich, Ontario in August, and the Celtic Roots Festival that follows immediately after. I heard fabulous traditional music in the Orkney Islands played by people of all ages. Lots of people in this thread have had similar experiences.

I think if people who know traditional music care enough to pass it on to their children, or to younger musicians and singers, some of the seeds will take root. My father listened to classical music, not folk, and I resisted. I didn't understand it. Now I occasionally amaze myself by realizing that I like listening to opera. I love the singing of Carlo Bergonzi and Jussi Bjoerling. I would walk barefoot through the snow for a ticket to a Bryn Terfel concert.

The days of the great folk scare are never coming back. That's OK. The music hasn't gone away, and I doubt that it will in the future.

CET

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: Schantieman
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 09:53 AM

Well said, Eliza.

I'm in my mid forties and am usually one of the youngest at the Bothy. We do sometimes getr yougsters coming along but they don't usually stay.   There *are* youngsters about - my daughter is seven and occasionally sings, my friends eldest son is 23 and sings and plays a lot. Then there's Hekety.   And so it goes on.

Steve

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 09:57 AM

"people like GUEST" - there are nine posts in this thread from "GUEST", so there's no way if there's one of them or nine of them, so it's no point getting into arguments with them/him/her.

.. if you like folk music you are a folkie no matter what age you are. It is pretty confusing to start giving every new generation a new "tag", and stops the continuity..." Absolutely.

And it's just not true that there's any antipathy in the folk scen in England to people who write songs. New songs with roots in the folk tarditions are coming through all the time, and good songs too - but the focus tends to be on the songs rather than the singer. More often than not people don't have a clue who actually wrote a song, or who famous has recorded it. And that's how it should be.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: Jim Colbert
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 10:12 AM

I'm 41, and in my area seems like the bulk of them are in my age range- tend to be a bit older crowd at the more traditional stuff, a bit more of a mix for some of the more contemporary folkies, say, Peter Mulvey or Richard Shindell.

I think some of the younger people I know who do enjoy folk/acoustic, have parents that have exposed them to more than just the flavors of the week... in fact some of them have quite diverse tastes, and I think that's a great thing.

Bearded, balding and bellies comprises the bulk of the people I see around me at the average area show though!

jim

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 10:22 AM

I'm 15. I know a LOT of teens who play music and dance. And a lot of my adult friends have little kids who are growing up in the culture. It isn't going to die, if that's what you want to know. Although I do speak for the traditional northern (in New England, the Irish and New England music/dance) folk scene mostly.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: Bernard
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 11:09 AM

Whilst it's certainly true that there aren't as many thriving folk clubs in the Manchester (UK) area as there used to be, there are enough left to demonstrate that us 'bearded balding bellies' have left a legacy that the young 'uns are picking up on.

The Railway folk club in Heatley, for example, is still thriving after over twenty years, with weekly audiences in excess of forty (people, not age!). Singers' Nights attract a fairly even balance of performers and listeners, and the age range of regulars is from 16 to 80!

A good balance of traditional and contemporary music is essential; I'm not keen on some singer-songwriters who seem so conceited as to think an audience will put up with their own material for the whole evening - they should really intersperse their own stuff with tried-and-tested material... but that's just my opinion...!!

Vin Garbutt is a good examples of someone who writes good songs, but is prepared to vary his material with that of others; Pete Coe is another...

Harvey Andrews is a good example of someone who can carry the evening entirely with his own high quality material; Allan Taylor is another...

I'd rather not cite any bad examples here, though...!

Spiers and Boden are a duo whose repertoire is almost entirely traditional music, but with their own individual interpretation, and their combined age doesn't add up to 'over fifty' yet! They are able to appeal to the older folkies, whilst encouraging the youngsters to have a go. If you haven't seen them yet, it's time you did!

I suppose my anser to the question 'Are all folkies over fifty' really depends on the actual definition of 'folkies'. If folkies are those who were around folk clubs in the 1960s (as I was), then the answer has to be 'yes'.

If 'folkies' are those who enjoy good folk music, then the answer must be 'no'.

In defining 'folkies' I don't believe that we should differentiate between listeners and performers; nor should we differentiate between those who perform traditional songs, tunes and poetry and those who write their own material. To do so suggests some form of 'elitism' which has been seen to be destructive in the past... and which still exists in some clubs.

The only criterion is the style of the music... if it is in the folk idiom, or not. There are some performers getting gigs in folk clubs whose material is anything but in the folk idiom...

But that's another debate...

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: Kate
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 11:19 AM

I'm 23 and have a passion for folk music. I particularly enjoy singing traditional English music, and the appeal is not so much about performing but listening and learning about the music. I also love going to traditional jamming sessions (although I don't play), and I have even fuelled my dads interest in it. I'd label myself a folkie, although many of my age group would be surprised to hear this. I think many of them imagine folkies to be dressed in tie-dye, cardigans and sandals! They'd certainly not expect someone who also likes Drum and Base, House (yes those 'repetitive beats'!) and the odd bit of pop music to be into folk music. On the one hand I've had my peers look at me with disgust when they hear I like folk, but on the other -I know of many young folkies and the number of them is gradually rising.

I think in attracting younger folkies into the scene it's important to be positive about the music - not dwell on the fact there aren't so many of our age group. There is nothing better than hearing what inspires people about the music and it's origins. Also I believe that you can't be too purist about the folk music scene. There are definitely sessions that benefit from being purely traditional, but gigs and festivals that includes more modern twists to the genre play there part. I have many friends that have been to a good Roots gig with bands like Shooglenifty and Rory Mcloud (apologies to name only a couple) and have been persuaded to branch into the more traditional side of things. This is the way many revivals have started!

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: wilco
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 11:45 AM

The situation in urban UK is very different that in USA.
    I have eight children (16 -32) and 3.5 grandchildren. Young people love some kinds of "folk" music. Little children like all of the old stuff. Teenagers like it too. if it's done to their tastes.
    Some of what I see is a folk "elitism," that is very exclusive.
New people, new music, new arrangements aren't wanted or encouraged. We have that identical problem here in our local folk music association; it's like a private club where the sixty-year-olds play the same music to the same crowd that dwindles every year.
    My approach has been to tie the music with history, personalize it with genelogy, and make it fun and relevant to young people.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: Bernard
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 12:26 PM

Glad to hear it, Kate! Enthusiasm for one music style should never preclude enthusiasm for any other style. My own musical tastes are very wide and varied - people who ride in my car never know what to expect to hear on my car stereo! Jimi Hendrix, Beethoven, Dire Straits, J.S. Bach organ music, Fairport Convention, Amy Grant, Jane and Amanda Threlfall, Bluegrass banjo... I enjoy variety.


wilco48: yes, exactly - just the elitism I was referring to.

It's one thing to keep traditions alive, and another thing to kill them off through resistance to change.

Folk music is a living tradition, which is why the apparent oxymoron of 'modern folk' must be nurtured. But it should not be nurtured to the exclusion and eventual loss of tradition... a fine line.

But what counts as 'modern folk'? Here in the UK, Country and Western, Jazz, and Blues all seem to creep into folk clubs, and I'm not so sure that it is appropriate... yet some - but by no means all - Beatles' songs (and others) seem to fit into the 'folk genre' quite comfortably... possibly because us fifty-something folkies also grew up in that era.

'Folk' is a very wide term which can legitimately be applied to many forms of music on the premise that it is 'music for the people'. NOT my own opinion, BTW. Just quoting.

The danger with becoming too diverse is a loss of identity. Strange how so many non-folk people here in the UK equate 'Folk' with 'Country and Western', yet the two are really poles apart.

I am classified as a 'Folk' performer, yet my repertoire includes not only traditional and contemporary 'folk', but also Bluegrass, Music Hall and, yes, even some Beatles' and Stones' songs...! In some cases it is the style of performance, rather than the music itself...

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: Marje
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 12:57 PM

One point that's been touched on but not developed is that a lot of the 50-plus - oh, OK let's say 40-plus - folkies are relatively new to the scene. While there are many who've been involved continuously since the 6os revival, there are also many who've only taken up an instrument or found their voice in middle age. I used to find it a bit worrying that sessions and clubs are so middle-aged, but now that I realise there are still new people coming in, the idea of the "silver session" doesn't fill me with the same despondency.

Instrumental music seems to appeal more than song to the younger people in the UK. There are some strong solo singers, but the idea of singing together in a crowd seems a bit alien to most of the younger folkies, which is a shame.

There have been a couple of strange comments to the effect that you can't find people playing or singing English music in pubs or at weddings nowadays - well, you can in Sussex, and I know you can in other counties too.

And as for weddings and special parties, barn dances are extremely popular in England even among those who don't normally get involved with folk music. The music played is predominantly English dance music, probably with a bit of Irish, Scots and American. The sad thing is that most of the guests won't even realise it was English music they were dancing to, and will tend to assume it was probably Irish.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 01:28 PM

Ref: Marje. What you say about older people being new to the scene is interesting. When people stop working they look for an occupation and for some this can mean taking up an instrument and/or singing. I've noticed myself, in England anyway, that a lot of people, often couples, who went to clubs in their younger days, are returning. Having spent the last 20 years or so in raising families and being committed to work, they now have more free time to go out, to pick up where they left off playing their instruments and singing years ago, and also just to go out for an evenings entertainment. This is good, but I do notice that their material is often set back in the period in which they left off! But, hey, they are making live music and that has got to be good.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: Kim C
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 02:31 PM

I'm 35, Mister is 47.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: GUEST,Peter from Essex
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 03:17 PM

A Scottish university hired a coach for IVFDF so the younger people are around. The average age at Knees Up Cecil Sharp last Friday was way lower than at any song club.

Us old farts in the song clubs have just got to admit that we are no longer the young, radical cutting edge of folk music.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: GUEST,Folk Music Society of Huntington, New York
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 03:28 PM

Folk Songs have no age. We do concerts a month and get over 100 people for each one. We have singer songwriters, who are younger, and performers who do the traditional songs.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: harvey andrews
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 03:47 PM

Eliza I find your antipathy to British "singer-songwriters" depressing.
McColl, Tawney, McTell, Garbutt,Bogle,Caddick,etc, etc. surely they have graced the folk music scene of the past 40 years?
Why do you feel the need to defend the shunning of their contribution and to consign them to the dustbin.
Every folk song was written by a singer/songwriter at some time in history. Songs are not written by committee and do not appear from thin air. Surely someone who understands British traditions and history should write the songs for our generations that are not just Tin Pan Alley "lurve" songs?
Believe me as a writer of song stories about the lives of "ordinary" people for 40 years it is just as difficult to get a platform as it is for a purely traditional performer.
Or does the term "singer-songwriter" now mean something different to you than it does to me and my generation?
I think those I've named above have made a massive contribution to the body of British song. So what are we supposed to call them and do you count their contribution and that of others of their ilk as naught?

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: Deckman
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 03:58 PM

I have been enjoying this thread. What I'm going to post doesn't answer the question directly, but I do think you'll find it interesting and germaine to the point. My friend Don Firth and I were very active singing in the coffee houses in Seatle in the late fifties. This year The Pacific Northwest Folk Life Festival contacted us about doing a concert. We have been doing some planning with them and we have been able to locate and round up about a dozen other performers from those years. As a result, we are all going to paraded on stage for a two and half hour concert and reunion sing thing. I'm sure there will be quite a collection of wheelchairs, walkers and canes! I did suggest the concert be titled "The Olde Fartz Concert," but I don't think that title will make the program! Oh well. CHEERS, Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: GUEST,baillie
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 04:30 PM

...No, I'm only 48!!!

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: chip a
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 04:43 PM

Don't know about "folk" .... what is that anyway? Just kidding! There are LOTS of young people into "Old Time". I'm in my late fifties and I'm generally older than most at jams and festivals. I think the younger ones are much more likely to be pickers and/or singers than just listeners.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: Beccy
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 04:48 PM

I'm 28.

(Yes- that's all...) I have Robert Service syndrome (was a chef, worked in advertising, a dental office, a sneaker store, a Christian camp (well, okay- my Dad ran that- but I still pulled a paycheck...) a Chinese restaurant and an ice cream shop and if I'm not better for it, at least I'm crazier!) I started working early in life and now I'm home with my 3 (soon to be 4) kids. I was raised on folk music and now I perform it despite having focused on jam bands for a long time.   I think my life experience makes me not an old folie, but a folkie from way back :-)

Beccy

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: John Routledge
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 06:58 PM

The further away from "folk" the younger the audience. Discuss :0)

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: cobber
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 07:05 PM

Thanks for all the responses. I don't feel so alone and maybe I'll lumber happily towards extinction now. Cheers

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 07:24 PM

God preserve us from the assumptions which a phrase like "the young, radical cutting edge of folk music" threatens to unleash, if it is not understood in a context that also values the old radical foundations of folk music. Radical implies roots.

New ways of interpreting music, and new tunes and new songs - they are fine. But they are part of a broader picture, and they grow out of a rich tradition. They need that, and we need it. And that's what I took Eliza as implying.

Imagining that there has to be a choice, as if holding to the old involved rejecting the new, or vice versa, is dangerous nonsense. Yes, individuals will focus their attention on one aspect rather than another, but that's entirely a different thing. I write songs and more often than not I sing them rather than traditional songs - but an evening which is just made up of people singing new songs to each other can be a very dispiriting thing.

I was at an event not that long ago, and in one room there was a session going, with a mixture of traditional music and traditional songs, and new songs - and in the room across the passage there was a dedicated open mike for singer-songwriters. I sang in both - but the session was so much more alive and exhilarating. The old and the new need each other, and the fact that this is understood is what is so precious about folk music, wherever it takes place.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: harvey andrews
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 08:10 PM

Agreed McGrath. But Eliza... "Guest who was complaining about British singer-songwriter antipathy-The British folk scene has resisted the introduction of singer-songwriters because it started from an interest in the traditions of this country, and to a larger extent believes quite rightly that singer-songwriters can get their platform anywhere"... seemed to be espousing exclusion not inclusion, with which I totally agree.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: graywolf1980
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 08:52 PM

22 here and love old time country/mountain music (listening for over 5 years). Just got the 7 CD set of "Kentucky Mountain Music," and it is worth every penny!!!

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: GUEST,walkerandandy.com
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 09:01 PM

Kids, guess what! We are a folk band and our age is 110 and there are only TWO members! Here is the fun part, we play a few original things but when we do MTA, Greenback Dollar, JetPlane, or Rustin In The Rain, the younger people eat it up. We always ask if they know the songs and if they say no then we tell them we wrote every
dang one of them!

We are playing all summer and fall in the Smoky Mountains and would love to have anyone who likes us "older" folks music to drop by.
If you can, visit walkerandandy.com and check out DeadBeat Petes, that is where we will be and it has all the info on how to get there.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: Melani
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 10:07 PM

I actually know one who is only 19--of course, she's my daughter!

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 10:26 PM

G'day all,

Well, I've just come home from the (Australian) National Folk Festival, over Easter in Canberra, Australian Capital Territory. I got to see lots of my old friends ... some even older than me and I've been active in the "Folk" scene for more than 40 years.

I also got to see some great young players and groups ... of course the peak might be young people like Nancy Kerr and James Fagan (I've known Jame's parents since he was a small ankle-biter!) ... even younger great players. The most noticeable to me, perhaps, were associated with people I've known for many years, but there were also fine young players I've never heard before - playing new and interesting music as well as enjoying fine old songs and music from what is the distance past ... even to me!

The group of friends, with whom I camped at the (A)NFF mostly had some of their children with them ... because they wanted to be there ... enjoying folk songs, traditional music, dances from Australia's past ... and the many traditions that have blended to form Australia.

I think there is an illusion caused because, as we age, we concentrate on our contempories - and don't see where the tradition has gone.

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: Cluin
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 12:09 AM

Not yet. Give me another 10 years.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: Marje
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 04:33 AM

With regard to trad versus recently-composed songs: Eliza had some very wise thoughts to offer about the value of traditional material. This doesn't mean that nothing recent has any value, but singer-songwriters who are in the music scene are capable of promoting their own songs. The traditional material no longer has a live composer around to help it along, and so it's more vulnerable.

It also seems to me that the folk process has preserved only the best of the tradtional songs. Songs with bad lyrics or a dull tune tend to get dropped from the repertoire, or else people adapt them by putting them to new tunes and pruning our the worst lyrics, perhaps adding new verses or fusing two versions to come up with one, better one.

Now, this doesn't happen so easily with new songs. Some of the songs that are newly-written are wonderful stuff which is quickly assimilated and passed on by lots of singers. But many more are either flawed or complete crap. The songwriter who carries these songs may not be able to distinguish between the good and the bad, and will continue to inflict third-rate material on the audience. And others will hesitate to alter material that is, either formally or implicitly, the intellectual property of the composer. There's a sort of natural selection process that applies itself to folk song, weeding out the weaker stuff, and the newer material hasn't been subjected to this. This doesn't make it all bad, but leaves a higher proportion of rubbish around than soome of us would wish.

When we look at the respected songwriters mentioned by Harvey, to some extent the selection process has already been at work on them. Countless other songwriters of the 60s and 70s have sunk without trace. And it's probably the case that even the successful people have written songs that are now, with good reason, forgotten. Forty years is a long time, even in folk music, and that's why the songs that survive from early in the revival are, on the whole, robust, memorable songs that are worth singing, just like the best of traditional songs.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 04:59 AM

Re Harvey Andrews having a go at Eliza C and her alleged antipathy to singer-songwriters. No-one (well, hardly anyone) obects to singer-songriters as such, and of course we all value Cyril Tawney songs etc etc. The "anitpathy" only happens when the songwriters become a dominant and defining majority in whatver group is making music. At that point it may become of no interest to those interested primarily in folk. I loved folk clubs when they had mostly tradtional material, enlivened by new songs, flamenco guitairst, ragtime pianists and fiddlers who could play "The Flight of the Bumble-bee" amazingly fast. A Pigeon Fnciers Club can easily and enjoyably accommodate a vistor who brings a budgerigar...but when you get to 70% budgerigars the original Pigeon Fanciers will start to fold their tents and slip away.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 05:07 AM

It's when people start bringing their ferrets it really gets dodgy...

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: MikeofNorthumbria
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 09:40 AM

My dear friends,

Why do we music-lovers spend so much time and energy hurling insults, cliches (and, I admit, occasional words of wisdom) at each other?

Why don't we apply these valuable resources to playing and singing the music we love, to whoever may be interested - old, middle-aged or young - in any accessible venue - folk-club, pub-session, festival campsite or front-parlour get-together?

Yes, I know that by adding to this thread I'm sawing off the branch I'm sitting on ... but come on ... haven't we had of these sterile disputes over the past decades? Let's argue less, and sing and play more!

Wassail!

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 11:00 AM

To some extent it's ceremonial. Morris dancers perform by way of ritualised battles. We use arguments instead of sticks, that's all. Of course it can get rather bloody at times, in both cases.

Subject: RE: Are all folkies over fifty?
From: Marje
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 11:20 AM

To Mike of Northumbria: Look, this is a discussion forum. That's what it's for, talking about things. Last night I played some music but you didn't hear me; all you'll get on a discussion forum is - well, discussion. It doesn't mean we don't like or respect each other or that we don't want to make music, just that there are issues we like to talk about together, and maybe even disagree about from time to time. I don't really know what you expect to find happening here if we're not allowed to have a bit of an argument about the things that matter to us. Go on, join in and provoke us a bit! Or was that what you were doing? :-)