5th String Capo

Subject: 5th String Capo
From: JedMarum
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 09:29 AM

Well, I did it. I bit the bullet today and ordered a 5th string capo for my Vega longneck.

I've been queazy about doing anything so permanent to it, cuting, driling, etc ... so instead I've been twisting that 5th string up and down into keys it ought not to go (Bflat, even C, once or twice). But I'm tired of having sigificant retuning efforts, every time I twist that sucker up to B flat - and down to F.

Any experience with installing the 5th string capo? Any comments about using 'em?

Anyone want to commiserate about "a banjo tuner's work is never done?"

Subject: RE: 5th String Capo
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 10:32 AM

Jed,

My sumpathies.

I've waffled about this for years. I've used 5th string capos. I can't remember the brand of the first and the second was a Schubb. I installed both and both got the job done.

I haven't put a 5th string capo on my current main banjo for several reasons, but mostly because I've decided I like the sound of a retuned string better than the sound of a capoed string. I don't use a capo for the other strings either.

If I were to go back to capoing, I'd probably go to railroad spikes. That's what all my old time banjo playing friends use.

Subject: RE: 5th String Capo
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 10:42 AM

I've had a Shubb sitting in my banjo case for a couple of years. But then, my banjo has been sitting in its case for a couple of years! I must take it out and give my guitar a rest. I only bought the capo because someone (and she knows who she is!) would insist in singing in awkward keys like G#; sincewe don't sing together much now, I'll leave it a bit longer. And anyway, I'm frightened todeath of drilling holes in muy banjo!

Steve

Subject: RE: 5th String Capo
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 10:46 AM

Hi Jed. I've owned three Shubbs, and mis-drilled TWO of them! (pure dumbness!)

The railroad spikes were the best 50 years ago, and they're the best today.

Hope all is well.

Luv

Rick

Subject: RE: 5th String Capo
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 10:52 AM

They're easy to install. Just drill 2 small holes. Shubb provides clear instructions with their products and I'm sure the other manufacturers do likewise. But, if you have any doubts, take it to a luthier/repairperson.

Expect it to be "in the way" for a few days until you get used to it being there, especially if you play up the neck a lot. After a while your fingers just seem to naturally avoid it. The hardest part of using a 5th string capo is remembering to move it back to "neutral" when you de-capo the banjo. Nothing quite like kicking off the next tune, in G, and hitting a 5th string that's still capoed up to Bb.

Bruce

Subject: RE: 5th String Capo
From: chip a
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 11:22 AM

I put an extra long Shubb on my banjo after snapping a little bitty drill bit off in the neck (okay, I snapped two of them) while drilling for railroad spikes. It seemed in the way at first but now I don't even know it's there. It's quick and easy to use. In the past, I've had some trouble with spikes causing the strings to buzz. With low profile frets this can be a real nuisance.
If you're playing Old Time, the purity police will give you a hard time for not using spikes.
:-),
Chip

Subject: RE: 5th String Capo
From: ex-pat
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 12:47 PM

I use spikes at the 7th and 9th frets. Still have to tune down a mite when I use them. Too true, a banjo players work is never done!

Ollie

Subject: RE: 5th String Capo
From: X
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 12:49 PM

I fret the fifth string and I even slide on the fifth, not fun with the RR spikes.

Subject: RE: 5th String Capo
From: DonMeixner
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 12:54 PM

Jed,

I've used spikes and a Shubb on my Ode Long Neck. Ever torn up a finger tip on a spike? I have. The Shub is just the nutz as far as I'm concerned. Retuning is less of an issue. Obvious ly you need to be careful about location and how you predrill the holes. One of the screws for the capo is an "eye" screw and I use that for a strap anchor.   10 years and no worries.

Don

Subject: RE: 5th String Capo
From: Leadfingers
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 01:01 PM

I have a Professionally instaled sliding capo on my Maya,but nothing on any of the others as I make 5th string capos myself for my banjos
Very cheap and very easy.If any one PM,s me their e-mail address I
will e-mail the 'blueprint'to them.Just a heavy duty box staple and an elastic band.

Subject: RE: 5th String Capo
From: Charley Noble
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 04:51 PM

And if you must have the real railroad spikes, I still have a vast supply. I'll mail you 12 for a dollar, and refills if you want. PM me for details, I am to please.

It is useful to pre-drill the fingerboard before hammering in the spikes, but try not to drill all the way through.

Cheerily,
Spike Noble

Subject: RE: 5th String Capo
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 05:42 PM

Jed, I've had an extra long Shubb on my long-neck Vega Folk Ranger for about 15 years (I've had the banjo since 64). I special ordered it in unfinished brass to allow it to age along with the other appointments. It has worked well though I have made a couple of adjustments over the years.

1. Since I long ago lowered the fifth string at the bridge to about 3/8ths lower than the other four strings (it doesn't affect the picking but does allow for strumming ala tenor banjo) my fifth string rides closer to the neck. When I put the Shubb on, I filed back the length of the capo arm to allow for chord slides up the neck, so that it just extends over the fifth string by about a 1/4 inch.

2. When I mounted the capo I moved the rail further down the neck to start just at the sixth fret. That way when I play in G/C I clamp the capo down at the 8th fret (and my banjo capo is at the 3rd fret). The idea is to have your fifth string capo at the same position from the fifth fret as your banjo capo is from the nut on the whole neck. Thus, when I drop to F, both capos drop two frets. When I go to E the fifth string capo is at the end of it's travel and is open, and the banjo capo is off the instrument. The space saved near the fifth string nut gives you two additional keys at the top end.

3. Finally I use a Suzuki violin tuner attached to the fifth string just past the bridge and before the tailpiece. This allows me to quickly tweek the tuning, just like fiddlers. You will find that the tension you apply to the Shubbs tuning knob can change the strings tuning slightly, thus the Suzuki allows you to compensate and you are much faster in changing to odd keys than any other method.

Finally I use the GHS medium gauge strings (#180s) which work far better on a long neck than any others I have tried and keep the fret buzz down on open tunings.

Good Luck!

Subject: RE: 5th String Capo
From: DonMeixner
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 09:03 PM

Claymore,

I have tried the GHS Strings and found them awful at best. But thats is a matter of taste more than anything else. I really miss those Vega Extra Longs, little heavier gauge on the un wound strings. I have lately been using the long neck set supplied by Deering and find them to be pretty OK.

Don

Subject: RE: 5th String Capo
From: JedMarum
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 09:35 AM

Good advice here. Thanks.

I did order a Schub from Deering (for the long neck), and a box of string sets too (Mediums cause they sound best).

I too like the sound of the uncapoed string, but I've been working some folks from time to time who switch from Bflat, to G to A to F etc, and even with an electronic tuner I'm finding it tough to make the switch as gracefully as I'd like. I usually plan out my songs based upon banjo retunings, when I have a say-so about it!

I know with the 5th string capo there will still be the fine retunings, but these are a lot easier.

I considered spikes, but that seems even more invasive a surgury, and disfiguring to the neck. I can't call myself an old timey player. I suppose I'm still just another guitar player with a banjo, but I love the instrument. I use my right hand my the way I do for guitar, some 3 fingered pickin', and some brushing - no picks just long nails. So I have a sort of bastardized style - but it works.

Subject: RE: 5th String Capo
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 09:43 AM

Naive question: how can model railway spikes be more "authentic" than a capo?
(I only ask!)

RtS

Subject: RE: 5th String Capo
From: chip a
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 10:13 AM

The old dead guys used them. At least I think that's the criterion.
:-),Chip

Subject: RE: 5th String Capo
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 10:44 AM

....and little teeny tiny John-boy Henry swung his nine ounce hammer and jes' hammered those model train railroad spikes in!

Subject: RE: 5th String Capo
From: DonMeixner
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 01:06 PM

I believe that Pete Seegar in his little red Banjo Book said to use very tiny screws. And then he said to make one out of a clock spring. The Shubb works just fine and Grover has a real cheapy slide bar thing that worked OK on my Harmony Sovereign Back-a-lite Beauty.

Don

Subject: RE: 5th String Capo
From: clansfolk
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 02:35 PM

Have Shubb 5th string capos on all my banjos both acoustic and solid electrics - might even start fitting them to me guitars - they're so good :-) have tried other makes but always ended up taking 'em off again.

Take your time when fitting and make sure the 5th string is near the edge of the fretboard and parallel or it can slip from under the capo bar.... otherwise no problems and you can play better with them funny vocalist that love obscure keys.... what's wrong with straining - that's what I say


Pete

Subject: RE: 5th String Capo
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 03:10 PM

The Shubb fifth string capo is wonderful. The combination of it and a Kyser Qyuick Change Capo makes for speedy, minimal adjustments between songs.

The hell with tradition. Go for the convenience. There's enough suffering in the world.

Subject: RE: 5th String Capo
From: DonMeixner
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 05:10 PM

McGrath,


I know how Bakealite is spelled, I am just trolling for you.


:-))))

Don

Subject: RE: 5th String Capo
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 03:15 AM

Invented by Dr Baekel, so even he spelled it wrong!

Subject: RE: 5th String Capo
From: GUEST,banjoman
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 06:16 AM

I have used a 5th string capo on all my banjos, and found them fine. I appreciate the problem of drilling into a decent instrument, but its best done with a model makers drill which will give very small pilot holes. My real problem has been taking the thing of to transfer to a new banjo, as it leaves two holes in the kneck. A bit of filler and a dab of a polish restoring crayon usually works fine. To avoid any rattle from the disengaged capo, I usually leave it on at the second or third fret and de-tune the fifth string to its normal pitch. Gives some nice unusual effects.

Keep on picking - strumming - whatever

Subject: RE: 5th String Capo
From: JedMarum
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 09:06 AM

I just had a scarey thought! My banjo case is tight - I wonder if the banjo will fit the case with the 5th string capo added?

Well< i'll update this thread when the capo arrives and I've had a chance to see how it all works out!

Subject: RE: 5th String Capo
From: Pied Piper
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 10:23 AM

I'm not a Banjoist but I assume the capo is for the drone sort of string nearest to the player's head. I've seen people use those clips used to keep the paper in position for technical drawing. The clip goes over the 5th string and under the rest, it seems to work well and I assume is cheaper than a specialist capo.
Sorry if I've got the wrong end of the stick.
All the best PP

Subject: RE: 5th String Capo
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 10:31 AM

I got your e-mail, Leadfingers... thanks. It looks like it would work, but I think you need English staples... Amurican ones is too small. I've used small screws, and they work fine... just haven't gotten around to putting one in my newer banjo... the trick is finding screws small enough. I have a couple that I took out of the face of an old clock.

Somewhere..

Thanks for the suggestion, Lead..

And who ever came up with all the bad jokes about banjo players? That's DEFINITELY a Brit thing. There's a Charlie Brown cartoon where Charlie is talking about all the problems and sorrows in the world, and Linus says "Every baby should be given a banjo when they're born."

I second that emotion.

Jeryry

Subject: RE: 5th String Capo
From: Leadfingers
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 01:25 PM

Any thin metal strip will do.I suggested a carton staple as they are easy to bend to shape and one staple will cut in two to make one capo.
I have also successfully used the metal strip out of a dead car windscreen wiper though these are harder to cut.

Subject: RE: 5th String Capo
From: BanjoRay
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 07:42 PM

Before you decide to install a Shubb fifth string capo, make sure the side of the neck is still vertical to the fingerboard at a point 1cm back from it, because that's roughly where you drill the holes, and if the capo metal strip does not sit vertically, then the bit of metal that holds the string down sticks a bit too far up in the air. I first used my Shubb on a Deering Sierra, and the curvature of the side of the neck caused that to happen. The 7th and 8th frets were OK, but above that the capo was useless. I have since had spikes installed on my three banjos, and they're fine.
Cheers
Ray

Subject: RE: 5th String Capo
From: JedMarum
Date: 22 May 03 - 09:30 AM

I just recieved my stuff from Deering (Chubb), read the instructions, looked over the kit and decided it really was simple enough for a do-it-yourself project. So, of course I brough it in to the shop for a pro to do! I just don't have the balls to to cut my own banjo neck! Even these three teeny tiny little screw holes. So for $40 my local, talented guitar repair man will put the thing on for me.

I bought a Chubb capo while I was at it. My Keiser just pushes the strings too far out.

This is a major expense for a part-time banjo, full-time guitar player! But I can't wait to try my new toy!

Subject: RE: 5th String Capo
From: Frankham
Date: 22 May 03 - 04:33 PM

Jed,

I had a sliding capo on my banjo and had to take it off. As soon as I started frailing at a good clip with volume, the string would invariably slip out from under the sliding capo. I went back to the spikes and haven't had a problem with this since. I think that's why the old-time players like the spikes.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: 5th String Capo
From: GUEST,Egal
Date: 22 May 03 - 05:23 PM

Railroad spikes, get em from Sully's banjos in Macclesfield

same set been in my instrument for more than four years. I tried the slidey up Shubb thingy but found it near impossible to fret the fifth
with me thumb, and a bloody nuisance when playing descending licks.

Subject: RE: 5th String Capo
From: Charley Noble
Date: 22 May 03 - 05:44 PM

And my offer for genuine VARNEY railroad spikes still stands: 12/$1 with a stamped self-addressed envelope. At the rate they are flying out the door I'll still have a supply in the year 3000.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: 5th String Capo
From: smokeyjoe
Date: 22 May 03 - 11:06 PM

I currently have a 'shubb' sliding capo on my Vega. It's alright -not great. It's not *that* hard to get used to, but as BanjoRay stated above, it's not as simple as Shubb would have you believe to install either. Probablt the best capo I've ever used on a banjo was a 3/8" stove bolt. Slip it in between the string and the neck just behind the desired fret and voila! Make sure you get one that has a shank wide enough to clear the fret. The thread on the bolt holds the string nicely in place and prevents lateral movement.
Of course, you may ask why I ultimately went for the shubb....... well, so do I.

Subject: RE: 5th String Capo
From: JedMarum
Date: 22 May 03 - 11:57 PM

Well, I'll find out tomorrow. The banjo man called and said it's on. I'll pick it up tomorrow and play it tomorrow/tomorrow night.

I don't frail. I use a four fingered roll style, with some brushing mixed in - real bastardized, I know, but it works for me. I don't think I'll have a problem with pulling too hard on the fifth string, since I'm pretty much down stroking with my nail. I don; fret the fifth string, hardly - I suppose I will have some adjusting to the bar being there ... we'll just have to see.

I'm anxious to try it out. Could be a lot of banjo played tomorrow night!

Subject: RE: 5th String Capo
From: GUEST,Englishjim
Date: 09 Jun 22 - 08:21 AM

Hi all I’m new to using a capo
What I don’t understand is are the finger positions the same when playing in another key
Eg,if I put my capo on the second fret to play in A
Do I still play a c chord in the same place as in g
It’s baffling to me
Does anyone know of a book I could buy to learn about the chord placements in different keys
Thanks
Jim

Subject: RE: 5th String Capo
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 09 Jun 22 - 12:57 PM

This (nearly 20 year old) thread is about 5th string capos on banjos - the 5th string on a banjo isn’t as long as the rest so it needs a capo of it’s very own - but I think you’re actually asking about capos on ordinary instruments with all strings the same length.

The principle of capoing is simple. All you’re doing is raising all the strings by the same amount which enables you to play in a multiplicity of keys without all the bother of learning all the chords. Each fret up the neck you pit the capo on raises the key by a semi-tone so, if you stick a capo on the first fret and play the chords you’d use in the key of C, you’ll actually be playing in the key of C#. Stick it on the second fret and you’ll be playing in D.

Most people simply use a capo to adjust the key of a song to better fit their vocal range; i.e. if a song is too low for you to sing without a capo, stick one on and gradually move it up the neck until you find a key you can sing it in.

Subject: RE: 5th String Capo
From: Stringsinger
Date: 09 Jun 22 - 01:16 PM

I like the Shubb capo installed on my Gibson LN 175. Tuning is essential for any banjo player and I find the Shubb fast from one tuning to another. I use a surgical hose on a spring capo
to slide into different keys.

The main thing the banjo plays is the old Asian tune:   Tu--ning.

Subject: RE: 5th String Capo
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 09 Jun 22 - 04:04 PM

While everything Ray said is true, I use a capo on the first fret when I want to play in flat keys. So, instead of E-A-D-G-B-E, I have F-Bb-Eb-Ab-C-F. If you take the capo off, blow on it, and put it back on, you can have A#, D# and G# instead of Bb, Eb, and Ab. I sometimes leave the capo off when I play in F so as to have the Dm chord in first position with the open D and A strings. I leave it on if I want to be able to play the low F without fretting. I rarely have the capo on any other fret, not being a singer.

> The main thing the banjo plays is the old Asian tune:   Tu--ning.

There are special kinds of guitars now that never need to be tuned.



Unless you want to play in tune, of course.

Subject: RE: 5th String Capo
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 10 Jun 22 - 06:48 AM

> There are special kinds of guitars now that never need to be
> tuned.

Mebbe we should get one of those for our youngest grandchild. He has the impression that playing their family ukelele is done exclusively by twiddling the tuning knobs, otherwise what would they be there for?

Subject: RE: 5th String Capo
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 10 Jun 22 - 06:58 AM

I think the tuning knobs on ukeleles are only there for decoration.

Subject: RE: 5th String Capo
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 10 Jun 22 - 08:24 AM

> I think the tuning knobs on ukeleles are only there for
> decoration.

Surely they also help the grip when used to whang a banjo player about the lug'oles?

Subject: RE: 5th String Capo
From: GUEST,Don Meixner
Date: 11 Jun 22 - 10:46 PM

I posted about the Shubb slider years ago. I still strongly recommend them. Let me suggest a product called Earls Suspenders. The best I can say is I have one and it works. Best just Google them to see what they are.

Don

Subject: RE: 5th String Capo
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 11 Jun 22 - 11:11 PM

I considered buying this but I won't drill holes in my banjo. I hardly ever play the fifth string, though.

I do have a Shubb capo for each of my instruments which can be used with a capo (i.e., not my trumpet or accordeon), because I don't like readjusting them. They are excellent products and I wouldn't be without them.

Subject: RE: 5th String Capo
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 11 Jun 22 - 11:12 PM

"I considered buying this ..."

I meant the Shubb slider. Don't know the other.

Subject: RE: 5th String Capo
From: GUEST,Thebarleymow
Date: 13 Jun 22 - 05:42 AM

I fitted a long Shubb 5th string banjo to my banjo years ago. Absolutely brilliant. One of the simplest and most efficient little gadgets. Always there when you need it.