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Subject: BS: butt and ben From: mack/misophist Date: 22 Apr 03 - 06:07 PM This is a phrase that irritates me because, although I know what it means, I can't for the life of me figure out what the individual words mean. Since there are a number of Scottish persons here, perhaps some one could enlighten me. Google's no help. It's from a well known little poem. Up the close and down the stair, Butt and ben with Burke and Hare. Burke's the killer, Hare's the thief, Knox the boy that buys the beef. Any suggestions? |
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Subject: RE: BS: butt and ben From: Metchosin Date: 22 Apr 03 - 06:20 PM Who said google can't do it. About 50 years ago, the farm houses in the county of Ayr [adjacent to Lanarkshire on the west] were despicable hovels; many of them were built in part, and some altogether of turf, or of mud plastered on stakes and basket work... That part of the building which served the family for lodging, sleeping, cookery, dairy &c, denominated the "in-seat", was about 12 or at most 14 feet square, with the fire either in the centre, or in the gable, without "jambs" or "smoke funnel". On larger farms, another apartment, of nearly the same dimensions, and which entered through the "in-seat", was called the "spense", in which were stored the "meal chest", "sowen-tub", some beds, a cask into which the urine was collected, known by the name of the "wash-tub", spinning wheels and reel, when not used, and the goodwife's press, if she had one. The other part of the building was occupied by the cattle, which generally entered by the same door with the family; the one turning to the one hand, by the "trans-door" to the kitchen, and through it to the "spense", and the other turning the contrary way, by the "heck-door" to the byre or stable. The "trans" and "heck" doors were in the centre of the partitions, so that the people in the "in-seat" saw "butt" to the byre, and the inhabitants of the byre and stable, could look "ben" to the "in-seat"; hence, houses built on that construction were said to consist of a "butt" and "ben". |
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Subject: RE: BS: butt and ben From: GUEST, heric Date: 22 Apr 03 - 06:22 PM Looks like they're beef : http://www.cruachan.com.au/html/body_monarch.htm |
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Subject: RE: BS: butt and ben From: GUEST,Melani Date: 22 Apr 03 - 06:22 PM Well, I'm not exactly Scottish, but my guess from years of reading in context is that a "close" is what we Yanks would call and alley, and I think "Butt and ben" is front and back, but not sure. |
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Subject: RE: BS: butt and ben From: GUEST,Melani Date: 22 Apr 03 - 06:23 PM Wow, that was quick. Three other people answered while I was typing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: butt and ben From: GUEST, heric Date: 22 Apr 03 - 06:26 PM or maybe not. |
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Subject: RE: BS: butt and ben From: Metchosin Date: 22 Apr 03 - 07:11 PM Or you can go to Mudcat Quick Links for the Scots Terms http://www.mudcat.org/scots/index.cfm "ben" - inside(a room) "but(t)" - outer |
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Subject: RE: BS: butt and ben From: kendall Date: 22 Apr 03 - 07:18 PM In the song, "Lassie with a yellow coatie" the sutor is telling her what he has to offer; "I've a butt and ben foo genty and I'd give it all to thee" |
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Subject: RE: BS: butt and ben From: Little Robyn Date: 22 Apr 03 - 08:52 PM I thought it meant in and out - butt and ben was out and in. Butt and ben wi' diddle doddle, Tommy gars my tale toddle. |
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Subject: RE: BS: butt and ben From: mack/misophist Date: 22 Apr 03 - 09:42 PM Thank you, all. Strange that I couldn't find it in the Scotts glossary. |
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Subject: RE: BS: butt and ben From: Alba Date: 22 Apr 03 - 10:30 PM A But an Ben is a Scot's expression for a two roomed dwelling or cottage if you like. A kitchen and a parlor. A Scot's dictionary can be found at www.scots-online.org If seperated the two words are: but...external- Ben internal. Hope this helps A:>) |
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Subject: RE: BS: butt and ben From: GUEST,ozmacca Date: 22 Apr 03 - 11:36 PM And you can also go, or come, "ben" into the room, as in the line from The Laird of Cockpen, "When she cam' ben, she bobbit." |
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Subject: RE: BS: butt and ben From: GUEST,Boab Date: 23 Apr 03 - 03:07 AM Hey, Metchosin! When the heck was this piece written ---"50 years ago the houses..."----"Ayrshire--adjacent to Lanarkshire"....Is this a piece by McGonigle? Can't be; not even the genius who wrote about the Tay Bridge Disaster could possible rant on about the state of the farm houses being thus "50 years ago". Could have been Blind Harry, or Edward the Confessor, maybe? Mind you, I will say this---the housing described does come close to the conditions found in the West Highland "black-houses", the demise of which was fairly recent. The cattle and the human family did indeed shelter under the same thatch. The fire was usually in the middle of the floor, and there were seldom any chimneys. The smoke [I am assured] formed a layer which didn't come below head height, and percolated through the thatch above. This had the effect of ensuring a completely bug free environment. I vividly remember visiting a preserved example of a black-house near Kingussie, and standing next to an old lady who actually dissolved into tears over her happy girlhood memories of her own "black-house" home. Hey, there can be no finer space-heaters than a couple of old highland cows munching away just behind the wooden divider! |
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Subject: RE: BS: butt and ben From: Dave Bryant Date: 23 Apr 03 - 12:18 PM I always thought that a "Butt and Ben" meant a small cottage with a "lean-to" extension. |
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Subject: RE: BS: butt and ben From: GUEST Date: 23 Apr 03 - 03:30 PM It does Dave, read the second post on this thread. |
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Subject: RE: BS: butt and ben From: Susanne (skw) Date: 23 Apr 03 - 07:00 PM It doesn't have the same 'solid' meaning in my native Low German, but we also say 'buten un binnen' for 'outside and inside', which is close enough to follow the language's migration from the Saxon shores to the Scottish Borders! More importantly: What misophist quotes is not a well-known little poem but the chorus to a well-known Edinburgh song. However, looking for a recording of it is driving me round the bend! Can anyone guide me to one? I once heard Nancy Nicolson sing it, but as far as I know she still hasn't recorded it. Robin Laing's song of the same title is a self-penned one. Where, oh where ...? |
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Subject: RE: BS: butt and ben From: Metchosin Date: 24 Apr 03 - 03:26 AM don't know if it will help much, but there is a tune file for it in the DT. |
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Subject: RE: BS: butt and ben From: Dani Date: 24 Apr 03 - 04:20 AM I seem to remember that that little bit that Robyn quotes above is rather risque, though I know nothing of the language. I thought the phrase was a euphemism (or something like) for what the singer was doing with Tommy! Dani (way in over her head) |
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Subject: RE: BS: butt and ben From: Little Robyn Date: 24 Apr 03 - 06:18 PM Right Dani - it's a naughty little song. Same as Woody's Relativity song - 'but I can go in and out!' |
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Subject: RE: BS: butt and ben From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 24 Apr 03 - 08:56 PM Fear not, Boab. We knew that "50 years ago" was a quotation from an old source. I read in a book somewhere that the smoke-filled black houses caused cancers of the eye in some of their unfortunate inhabitants. Makes sense to me. Long-term exposure to burned organics is nothing you'd want to risk. Good thing the black houses are gone, bugs or not. |
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Subject: RE: BS: butt and ben From: GUEST,Michele Date: 11 Jan 04 - 10:47 PM I'm trying to find out if Lassie wi' a Yellow Coatie is a Burns' tune or not, since I need to sing at a Burns' supper, and am tired of the standards usually sung. Anyone out there know if the song is too old or by someone else? Thanks much, Michele Buchanan |
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Subject: RE: BS: butt and ben From: Peace Date: 11 Jan 04 - 10:55 PM This site says Author Unknown. www.vogie.com/whatis.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: butt and ben From: GUEST,Van Date: 12 Jan 04 - 02:51 PM Michele Are you not missing the point - whatever "the standards that are usually sung" are if you wish to sing at a Burn's supper you sing a Burns song. To find them you look in one of the many collections of his poems and songs. If you don't like any of them go find another gig. |
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Subject: RE: BS: butt and ben From: kendall Date: 12 Jan 04 - 03:52 PM A "ben" is also a mountain, is it not? |
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Subject: RE: BS: butt and ben From: akenaton Date: 12 Jan 04 - 05:15 PM I was born in a two room cottage in the West of Scotland . I still live there although it is now modernised. Alba is right in her definition of kitchen in one end and parlour in the other,with sleeping accomodation in the attic. The cottage was referred to as "but and ben". When my grandparents were in the kitchen ,they would refer to the parlour as " ben the hoose",and vice versa....Ake |
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Subject: RE: BS: butt and ben From: GUEST,weerover Date: 13 Jan 04 - 11:31 AM "Lassie Wi' the Yellow Coatie" was not written by burns. wr |
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Subject: RE: BS: butt and ben From: GUEST,weerover Date: 13 Jan 04 - 11:33 AM Sorry, that should have read "...by Burns". In Scotland a burn is a small river, so it may actually have been written by burns, if you see what I mean...okay, get my coat. wr |
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Subject: RE: BS: butt and ben From: Kim C Date: 13 Jan 04 - 12:08 PM I thought you were talking about Jennifer Lopez and Ben Affleck........ |
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Subject: RE: BS: butt and ben From: Jim McLean Date: 14 Jan 04 - 05:32 AM In Paisley, where I was born, we never used 'ben' for 'come in'. To go 'ben the room' was to go into the other room (we only had two). You could say 'come on ben the room' meaning 'come with me into the other room'. Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: butt and ben From: 8_Pints Date: 14 Jan 04 - 06:01 PM Hi Dani, Yes it definately is rude!!! I know and occasionally sing "Tail toddle" which contains the chorus Tail toddle, tail toddle Tammy get me tail toddle Butt and ben and diddle doddle Tammy get me tail toddle I believe that there is tale of a rather posh lady asking (Hamish Henderson?) what a tail toddle was and he replied "It is a woman's pudenda" I think she just sort of spluttered! Sue vG |
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Subject: RE: BS: butt and ben From: Joybell Date: 14 Jan 04 - 06:50 PM Pretty much covered but they're both also in Child's glossary. but = towards the outer apartment or kitchen, without, and out - as it occurs in three different ballads. ben = towards the inner apartment of the house. Joy |
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Subject: RE: BS: butt and ben From: GUEST,BOAB Date: 14 Jan 04 - 07:32 PM Still common usage in most of sou-west Scotland---ben the room, ben the kitchen,ben the hoose, "come ben here", etc.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: butt and ben From: robinia Date: 15 Jan 04 - 03:18 AM It isn't just Scottish. I seem to recall the term being used in a small book about traditional Cape Cod houses; a "but and ben" was one of them . . . |
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Subject: RE: BS: butt and ben From: Little Robyn Date: 15 Jan 04 - 04:28 AM The words for Tail Toddle are in the DT. Robyn |
