How does my capo change my key

Subject: Tech: How does my capo change my key
From: GUEST,IanN
Date: 17 Jul 03 - 10:25 AM

Advise please!

I need to know how my capo affects the key I play in. I often play with harmonica players who want to know what key I'm in. It's easy when I'm not using a capo but I've no idea how it works when I put the capo on. They usually work it out eventually but it would be nice to be able to tell them straight away.

Any advice?

Cheers, Ian.

Subject: RE: Tech: How does my capo change my key
From: Noreen
Date: 17 Jul 03 - 10:33 AM

Each fretmoves the key up a semitone, Ian.
So playing in G (G shapes) with capo on 2nd fret will sound as the key of A.

Subject: RE: Tech: How does my capo change my key
From: GUEST,mink
Date: 17 Jul 03 - 10:36 AM

The capo just raises the tone by the number of frets you position it at. And each fret raises the tone by one semitone.

Hence - if you play a C chord without capo, then the same shape chord with capo at fret 1 makes it a C#, at 2nd fret it is D and so on.

Similarly, because all the notes are raised by a semitone per fret then it follows that the same applies to the key. So a song in C when played open is in D if capo at 2nd fret, is in E if capo at 4th fret, and is in F if capo at 5th fret.

Subject: RE: Tech: How does my capo change my key
From: Noreen
Date: 17 Jul 03 - 10:39 AM

...because there are two semitones between G and A
i.e. there's a semitone between G and G# then a semitone between G# and A.

Semitones:
G G# A A# B C C# D D# E F F# G

Does that make sense?

Subject: RE: Tech: How does my capo change my key
From: M.Ted
Date: 17 Jul 03 - 10:43 AM

Basically, the capo raises the key by however many frets you've capo'ed up--say you are playing in E--Capo on the first fret means your playing in F, on the third fret, you're in G, on the fifth, you're in A--Playing in D, first fret is Eb, third is F, fifth is G--

Part of learning to play the guitar is knowing the key you are in, all the time- you need to do is to sit down, before you play with people, and work out what keys are where--It is just as important as any of the other practicing that you do--

Subject: RE: Tech: How does my capo change my key
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 17 Jul 03 - 10:47 AM

This may help - it's what I use at folkinfo to try to assist people when using our transpose thing. In your case, just find your starting key, e.g to use what Noreen said find G and if you move up 2 frets, move 2 to the right.

A, Bb, B, C, C#, D, Eb, E, F, F#, G, Ab, A, Bb, B, C, C#, D, Eb, E, F, F#, G, Ab, A

Subject: RE: Tech: How does my capo change my key
From: Noreen
Date: 17 Jul 03 - 11:04 AM

A# being the same as Bb (Bflat)
Eb being the same as D#
Ab being the same as G#

etc.
This is where I get accused of being patronising... but I'd rather go back to basics than miss something out.

Subject: RE: Tech: How does my capo change my key
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 17 Jul 03 - 11:30 AM

Not from me Noreen!

Subject: RE: Tech: How does my capo change my key
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jul 03 - 11:31 AM

(accusations of being patronising that is)

Subject: RE: Tech: How does my capo change my key
From: Amos
Date: 17 Jul 03 - 11:37 AM

The intervals in a major scale (number of half-tones or frets) are:

0, 2, 2, 1, 2, 2, 2, 1
C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C

where "0" represents the note you start on -- in this case "C".

For other keys, the names of the keys change accordingly, but the intervals are the same for any major scale:

0, 2, 2, 1, 2, 2, 2, 1.   
G, A, B, C, D, E, F#, G are the same intervals starting on G.

So if you are playing G-shape chords, but you capo to the second fret you are "adding" two half-tones, which as you can see above means you're playing in A.

If you are playing C-shape chords, but have a capo on the fourth fret, you are "adding" 4 half-tones. Which as you can see above means you are playing in "E". Add one fret more and you are playing in "F".

Hope this helps.

A

Subject: RE: Tech: How does my capo change my key
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 17 Jul 03 - 11:48 AM

A complicating factor for you, Ian, is that harmonica players often play   "cross harp", meaning that if tune is in the key of G they will use a D harmonica, which gives them different options for bluesy notes and such. But that's the harp player's worry, not yours. As long as you can be clear about what key you're in, they'll do the translation if needed.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Tech: How does my capo change my key
From: Noreen
Date: 17 Jul 03 - 11:51 AM

Thaks Jon ;0)

Subject: RE: Tech: How does my capo change my key
From: PoppaGator
Date: 17 Jul 03 - 12:54 PM

In addition to all the foregoing, there may be another issue here since you specifically mention playing with harmonica players.

If your friends are *blues* harmonica players, they play "cross-harp" -- that is, if you're playing blues in E on the guitar, the mouth-harp player needs to use an "A" harmonica.

That's because the blues scale is different from the major scale -- the A major scale contains the same 8 notes as does the E blues scale, the only difference being the starting note ("1" or "do").

Similarly, blues in G requires a "C" harp, for A you need the "D" harp, etc. The harp required for a given blues key is five semitones above the basic key. For me, the easiest way to remember is to know that the harp cross-key for any given key corresponds to the subdominant or "II" chord of the nominal key: A for E, C for G, D for A, F for C, etc.

Of course, since you're trying to figure out how to use the capo to adapt to the harp player (who, unlike you, *can't* change keys without changing instruments entirely) you have to work "backwards," counting five semitones *down* from the key of the available harmonica. For example, if the harp player has a C harmonica, you need to play in G; assuming that you find it easiest to play blues in E, you can capo up three frets for the E/A/B7 chord shapes to become G/C/D7.

Confused? This should all become clear gradually, as you actually put the theory to use.

All the above is based on the assumption that the harmonicas in question are non-chromatic, that is, that they play only the eight notes per octave of a given major key. Also, of course, that we're discussing blues and blues-derived music, like many American pop/rock/jazz forms and as played by the overwhelming majority of American harmonica players. The harmonica can also, of course, be played "straight" in its own major key -- it's just a different style.

I'm sure that there are many music-theory scholars reading this who could tell us which of the classic "modes" corresponds to the blues scale customarily played on the harmonica.

Subject: RE: Tech: How does my capo change my key
From: Amos
Date: 17 Jul 03 - 01:03 PM

Hell, if you're playing blues with a harp player, play them in E and tell him to use his A harp. IF you play in G tell him to use his C harp. Crossharp plays the dominant (5th note in the scale) of the key the harp is tuned for.

A

Subject: RE: Tech: How does my capo change my key
From: GUEST,Les B.
Date: 17 Jul 03 - 01:07 PM

As often as this question about capo/keys cycles through the Mudcat front door it surprises me that there's not a permanent FAQ in the newcomer's section to clearly explain it. (Hint, hint)

Subject: RE: Tech: How does my capo change my key
From: PoppaGator
Date: 17 Jul 03 - 01:24 PM

Amos: my bad -- I wrote "subdominant" where I should have said "dominant." Also, you were *way* more concise than I, for sure.

Of course, we don't know for sure whether the blues-harp deal is even an issue for guest IanN. I just guessed that it might be part of what he was confronting because (a) he mentioned playing with harmonica players and (b) he was confused about using a capo, which I always considered (even as a rank beginner) a pretty simple concept unless some additional problem were muddying the waters.

Subject: RE: Tech: How does my capo change my key
From: GUEST,Bograt
Date: 17 Jul 03 - 05:22 PM

Hi IanN

On here

http://www.guitartips.addr.com/index.htm

In the bottom row of white boxes, you will find a
Capo Conversion Chart

This may be of some use to you

Cheers

Bograt

Subject: RE: Tech: How does my capo change my key
From: Naemanson
Date: 17 Jul 03 - 07:20 PM

G shape? C shape?

Duuh, what are those? I thought I'd already heard all the answers that I didn't even know were questions.

I may be better off just thumping on a guitar till music-like noises come out of it. These things are too technical for me. But I gotta ask the question.

Subject: RE: How does my capo change my key
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Jul 03 - 08:09 PM

I tend to play capoed up quite high a lot of the time, especially if there are any other guitars around, because it spreads the sound a bit more; so typically in a tune session I'll move into playing in whatever key the tune is being played in, and then maybe count the frets to find out what key that actually is.

Subject: RE: How does my capo change my key
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 18 Jul 03 - 12:32 AM

And if you want to play in a difficult key like F, all you have to do is capo down 2 frets and play in G.

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: How does my capo change my key
From: C-flat
Date: 18 Jul 03 - 02:50 AM

You know you've got some poor devil scratching his head, trying to work that one out, Mark!
It's not nice to tease! :~)

Subject: RE: How does my capo change my key
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 18 Jul 03 - 02:59 AM

No, but it sure is fun!

Subject: RE: How does my capo change my key
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 18 Jul 03 - 05:14 AM

If you tell the harmonica player your key, s/he can work oput which harp s/he needs!

Steve

Subject: RE: How does my capo change my key
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 18 Jul 03 - 05:25 AM

The comments about harmonicas can also apply to whistles where the key of the whistle is not neccessarily the key of the tune played. Many tune sets are played with perhaps one tune being in G and another in D, and some tunes (especially polkas) change key for the different sections. A whistle player would therefore use the same instrument and play accidentals as required.

I have met quite a few whistle players who have told me that a tune is in D because that is the key of whistle that they are playing it on - when they are actually playing it in G.

Subject: RE: How does my capo change my key
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jul 03 - 05:42 AM

Thanks everybody - I'm pretty useless when it comes to all this tech. stuff!

A particular song I'm trying to do is played in D "uncapoed" and I put a capo on the first fret to suit my voice. Does this mean its then in D#/Eb? If so what harmonica would be needed????

The harmonica player in this instance is a novice so I don't think she'll know (also she's my wife!!!)

Ian.

Subject: RE: How does my capo change my key
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 18 Jul 03 - 05:51 AM

You are right about the key which would normally be referred to as Eb.

As for the harmonica, it depends on how it is being played. For straight playing she would need an Eb harmonica. If she was playing "cross harp", I think you go one sharper than the required key. In that case she would be looking at Bb.

Subject: RE: How does my capo change my key
From: M.Ted
Date: 18 Jul 03 - 10:59 AM

Eb!!!   And he figured it out himself, based on the multitude of helpful answers(some of which probably were confusing to a novice--Another Mudcat triumph!

Have fun with you music, Ian--it is really great for a relationship when a couple can play music together, and it is especially good if you are both at the same level and learning together--

Subject: RE: How does my capo change my key
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jul 03 - 11:18 AM

Eb is a bugger of a key on most folk instruments, and harmonicas that would play in that key aren't that easy to find I'd imagine (leaving aside the clever people who can manage it on a chromatic harmonica).

You'd maybe do better to adjust your voice and sing in E or D, and put the capo somewhere where that would fit in with whatever chords you prefer to choose.

Subject: RE: How does my capo change my key
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 18 Jul 03 - 01:19 PM

Speaking of folk music in Eb, I asked a whistle player why Generation produces a mass-market tinwhistle in Eb. He said it's because, in a session, a player who doesn't want anyone to join him on a particular tune will use the Eb whistle.

Anyone heard this before?

Jerry

Subject: RE: How does my capo change my key
From: Amos
Date: 18 Jul 03 - 01:23 PM

Naemanson:

I was using the expression to describe the configuration of fingers on strings (regardless of whether the guitar is capoed or not). The idea is some people find it more familiar to play in G, so they can capo up (for example) two frets if they need to support someone who sings in A, but make the same chord formations they're used to. They're playing in A using G chord "shapes". Sorry if this was confusing.

A

Subject: RE: How does my capo change my key
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jul 03 - 02:33 PM

"a player who doesn't want anyone to join him on a particular tune will use the Eb whistle" - that wouldn't work with fretted instruments equipped with with capos. The other way round it would though. It's a good key if you don't want whistles and squeeze boxes drowning you out.

Subject: RE: How does my capo change my key
From: GUEST,Strick
Date: 19 Jul 03 - 12:16 AM

I suppose it's irreverent to suggest it would probably raise the pitch of your voice?

Subject: RE: How does my capo change my key
From: GUEST,Seaking
Date: 19 Jul 03 - 05:13 PM

Must confess I will sometimes use the capo in a singaround to intentionally pitch a song in a key that doesn't lend itself to my carefully practised fingerpicking being drowned out by wellmeaning but unwelcome accompaniment.. sneaky but it works.

CK

Subject: RE: How does my capo change my key
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 20 Jul 03 - 07:57 AM

G'day PoppaGator,

The "Blues Scale", with its 'flatted 7th' is often equated with the Myxolydian mode ... a mode that would start and finish on G using the 'white keys' only of a piano ... so it would be played "in G" on a 'C' vamper harmonica.

If you talk to a real musicologist, they'll start to add qualifications about the starting note, the range and other imponderables ... but 'Myxolydian' (very popular mode in Scots and related tunes) isn't all that bad a label.

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: How does my capo change my key
From:
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 02:29 PM

I would like to know what key harmonica to play for the keyu of the song the band is in.

Thanks, Paul

Subject: RE: How does my capo change my key
From: Amos
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 02:39 PM

Paul:

The answers are in the above posts. Playing straight harp? The key stamped on the instrument should match the key the band says it is playing in. Playing blues or cross-harp? The harp should be the subdominant of the key the band is in -- that is, if the band is in E, the harp should be an A harp. Or, to put it the other way around, the cross-harp player plays the dominant of the key the harp is marked as. So the A harp plays A when played straight and plays E when played cross-harp style.

A

Subject: RE: How does my capo change my key
From: New Harp Player
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 03:10 PM

Amos. Now I'm confussed. The band said they were playing in A. I used a F harp. I was told to go up 5 from the key the band was in.

Subject: RE: How does my capo change my key
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 03:54 PM

Re the "odd key" method of preventing others from joining: One camp at the WVA festival a few years ago resorted to sending "tuning of the day" by secret messenger to all the regulars, so that they could arrive in tune and play together but visitors would all be out of tune. They went beyond just picking a key, and sent "A = 490," "A = 380," etc. The regulars who didn't have an adjustable tuner could tune to each other before they all sat down, of course. (They were a country group, and apparently didn't have regulars with "fixed tuned" instruments.)

It didn't actually work too well, since those who might have contributed to their sessions immediately recognized what they were doing, and listened or went on. The "whangers" they were trying to prevent from joining just anoyed the sessions while they tried to retune. I heard that the next year they just posted a sign that said "Private Rehearsal," which worked just as well for the musicians but still didn't stop some of the less brilliant ones.

John

Subject: RE: How does my capo change my key
From: Teresa
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 04:03 PM

I feel very lucky that I can play by ear.

I also feel very lucky that I learned a little music theory, so I can identify the key I'm playing in! :)

T

Subject: RE: How does my capo change my key
From: Amos
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 04:16 PM

In the D harp, when you play cross, you are playing in A. Playing cross plays the fifth.

Harp = D Cross=A
Harp = E   Cross = B
Harp = F   Cross =C
Harp =G   Cross = D
Harp = A Cross = E
Harp = B Cross =F#
Harp = C Cross = G


Ok?

A

Subject: RE: How does my capo change my key
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 11:44 PM

I don't play guitar, but have heard that a capo will change a key, so I just went out and bought one.

My girlfriend just had the locks changed on our apartment.

How do I use my capo to change my key so I can get back in?

Subject: RE: How does my capo change my key
From: C-flat
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 04:31 AM

It's easy Foolestroupe!
Simply apply the capo to A^b key that doesn't fit and you can alter it to D key that will! C?
G!!!!How hard can it be?


C-flat.

Subject: RE: How does my capo change my key
From: s6k
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 05:36 AM

LOL!!!!

Subject: RE: How does my capo change my key
From: GUEST,Richard H
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 11:02 PM

Somewhat off-topic but would like to know:
A guitar friend of mine plays with a tenor-sax guy mostly using sheet music, fake books etc.. Since neither can transpose straight off, it usually means one or the other has to rewrite the music.

My question: if computer programmes like Band in a Box can transpose a digital signal into any key, could a guitar played through a synthesiser be programmed to transpose as you play?

Kind of high-tec capo?

Subject: RE: How does my capo change my key
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 11:39 PM

A midi guitar probably could, if someone wrote the software, but a normal acoustic or electric would not work at the current stage of electronic/computer development.

The easiest thing is for the sax player to learn to transpose on sight to read music for instruments in C (such as guitar, piano, etc) - after enough time of not playing in a band with printed sheet music, most players of transposing instruments learn to handle this pretty well.

Robin

Subject: RE: How does my capo change my key
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 05:42 AM

Most good synthesizers have a transpose function that works in real time.A guitar triggering it would do the same.
The new Variax "acoustic" modeling guitar has a function that lets you play in various altered tunings at the turn of a switch.It works because the guitar itself is practically inaudible-it has to be plugged in.I think it may have a transpose or capo feature,too.

Subject: RE: How does my capo change my key
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 10:51 AM

C-flat -

I tried what you said, but now I've got the capo stuck in the lock...

and believe you me, it wasn't easy getting it in,

as The Bishop said to the Actress...

Subject: RE: How does my capo change my key
From: C-flat
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 02:48 PM

Foolestroupe, all I can suggest is that you contact "Il Capo Di Tutti Capi" who I'm sure will help with a spot of de-capotation!

C-flat.

Subject: RE: How does my capo change my key
From: GUEST,Linda
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 10:19 AM

Subject: RE: How does my capo change my key
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 10:42 AM

Why does Generation make an Eb whistle?

Well, for one thing, if you look at O'Neill's Music of Ireland, there are many beautiful airs and songs in flat keys.

Also there are instruments which play better in flat keys, such as clarinets and horns. People really do combine traditional and conventional instruments at times, you know.

Subject: RE: How does my capo change my key
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 12:06 PM

do note that this is a 3 year old thread, refreshed by 2 posts with no content

Subject: RE: How does my capo change my key
From: Cluin
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 01:24 PM

Somebody's been digging around in the stacks and didn't pick up after themselves. The librarian is gonna be pissed off.

Subject: RE: How does my capo change my key
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 06:17 PM

I have to solve the opposite problem a lot of the time: when a singer is starting off with their own guitar accompaniment, if I'm to join in, what key should I try? - I usually have a pile of woodwind instruments that can handle any key between them.

You look at the fret they've capoed to. For no capo it'll be G, C, E minor or A minor. Every fret up takes that set of possibilities up another semitone, so e.g. 4th fret is B, E, G# minor or C# minor.
If the guitarist is using DADGAD tuning, it'll be the same set of possibilities but a tone higher to start with. Usually I have time to sort out what instrument I'm going to use in between them setting their capo and starting to play.

Only the most clueless singer/guitarists will use wildly exotic keys, but they're the ones that need a supporting accompaniment most often.

Subject: RE: How does my capo change my key
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Aug 07 - 06:32 PM

A tuner that works through a little microphone (rather than the ones that work by reading the vibrations in the wood of the instrument) is a good way of identifying what key people are playing in. (It's also good for working out what is the most comfortable key in which to to sing a song.)

Only the most clueless singer/guitarists will use wildly exotic keys Not at all - if you feel most comfortable singing a song in A#, for example, a guitar playing singer will very likely play in G and capo up three frets. Nothing exotic about it. Much better than singing in some key where the notes don't fall easy, just in order to make it easier to play accompaniments. Singing comes first, the accompaniment is secondary. Important, but the accompanist has to be ready to adjust to the needs of the singer. (Even when it's the same person accompanying themself.)

Subject: RE: How does my capo change my key
From: Marje
Date: 24 Aug 07 - 01:08 PM

Quite right, Malcolm - there's always an optimim key for a song (for a given singer) and that may not be one that suits other musicians. If a musician wants to join in or add an accompaniment, why not ask the singer what key they're using before they start? Then if they want you to accompany them, they may agree to go up or down a semitone to accommodate another instrument; if they won't change, the choice of an "exotic" key may be a deliberate ruse to put other musicians off.

Marje

Subject: RE: How does my capo change my key
From: Jack Campin
Date: 24 Aug 07 - 01:43 PM

The situation I had in mind was one where a singer comes into a session where it's usual for songs to be accompanied by all sorts of instruments (which means zero to three sharps is the territory in common). Insisting on E flat is just silly in that situation, no folk song covers such a wide range that D would be impossible.

With singers who don't bring their own guitars, I've seen it happen that they insist on an E flat to start, somebody gives them a D instead, and they never notice.

Subject: RE: How does my capo change my key
From: Marje
Date: 25 Aug 07 - 02:33 AM

Point taken, Jack - I'm not familiar with this sort of session. In the sessions I go to, there are only a few songs and they're generally either a capella or accompanied mainly/only by the singer, possibly with a friend or partner. The other musicians tend to sit back and listen, or ignore it and use the break go to the bar. There are a few well known songs that other instrumentalists will join in, but that's the exception rather than the rule.

Marje

Subject: RE: How does my capo change my key
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Aug 07 - 06:52 PM

"Well, for one thing, if you look at O'Neill's Music of Ireland, there are many beautiful airs and songs in flat keys"

yes and Chuck Berry wrote Promised Land in E flat.