Folklore: Is dancing sinful?

Subject: Is dancing sinful?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 10:06 AM

While searching for something else, I ran across this summary of Antidance Literature at the Library of Congress site. It contains lots of links to the texts of anti-dance religious tracts (or should that be "contra-dance"?), as well as some defenses of dancing, and some articles on the regulation of dance-halls.

This brings back memories. As a kid, I knew other kids, even some of my own relatives, who belonged to churches that prohibited dancing. I have not encountered that sort of thing in recent years, but maybe that's because I now live in a different and more liberal part of the country.

Although there are famous controversies about prayer in public schools, and about teaching evolution, and there is an occasional outcry about obscene or violent lyrics, I never hear anything any more from that sector about dancing per se. Why is that?

I wonder if the kind of dancing that kids do now is actually less objectionable to religious conservatives than the old ballroom dancing--because couples nowadays rarely touch each other, it seems. Or is it just because the religious conservatives believe they have bigger fish to fry nowadays?

I'd be interested in hearing other people's stories from personal experience. Are there still denominations that ban dancing? Anybody here formerly or currently belong to one? Anyone heard of any recent controversies about dancing?

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 10:41 AM

Au contraire:

I haven't heard any negative comments about dancing in any church I've attended, and because I sing with a gospel quartet, I've been in a LOT of churches of all denominations in the last few years. As a matter of fact, one of the strongest movements in the black churches has been the emergence of Praise Dancing as part of a worship service. There are biblical refences to King David being so overjoyed that he actually danced himself right out of his clothes... in public! They don't even do that in hip hop!.

As for current dancing, not only do dancers touch each other, they interlock their hips and go through all the motions of intercourse, and hands on butts are a common move (along with crotch grabbing.)
Compare that to the Tennessee waltz... Nothing is left to the imagination any more.

Judging will never go out of style, unfortunately... whether its the religious right, conservatives, liberals, folkies or ME, unless I keep on my guard.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: jimmyt
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 10:49 AM

I was formerly a member of the Seventh Day Adventist Church, and they are adamantly opposed to dancing. (As you can guess, that, and several hundred other reasons caused me to leave that religion) The old joke was why don't Adventists have sex standing up, and the answer is they are afraid some church member would see them through the window and think they were dancing!

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: shiny
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 11:08 AM

Our Aussie version of the same joke is that Methodists aren't allowed to make love standing up because they might be tempted to dance!

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 11:08 AM

Seventh Day Adventists never invited us to sing for them, jimmy.. :-)

Jerry

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: jimmyt
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 11:14 AM

Jerry, you are a little too caught up in Justification by Faith and Salvation by Grace being a free gift without needing works to earn your way aboard to suit them! Good to hear your cybervoice, Jerry!

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 11:18 AM

Dancing is still a no-no for Southern Baptists. I went to a Presbyterian Church as a youth. My Southern Baptist friends were scandalized that we danced IN CHURCH (specifically the "fellowshiip hall" as it was called).

Ditto Old Regular Baptists. A denomination found only in Eastern Kentucky (I think).

My (not completely uninformed) guess is that the prohibition of dancing is limited to protestant/reform churches.

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: GUEST,Elfcall
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 11:26 AM

My dancing has been described as diabolical !

Elfcall

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 11:27 AM

Looks like I go to all the wrong churches.. I remember the surprise when my group sang at a funeral service, and people got up out of their pews and were dancing in the aisles...

Jerry

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 11:51 AM

Jerry,

It's not that they are the "wrong" churches. They are just not a representative sample. At least as far as "southern" Christianity is concerned.

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: Amos
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 11:53 AM

Methodists aren't allowed to make love standing up because they might be tempted to dance!

That is really funny, shiny!!

The notion that dancing could be "sinful" is just ridiculous.

A

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 11:55 AM

Amos - you've never seen me dance!

'sinfully atrocious'

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: Jeanie
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 12:06 PM

A few years ago I came across a lady who ran a Christian dance worship group - so dance was acceptable to her, but only certain kinds. A woman who belonged to her group was found to also be a belly dancer - and she was unceremoniously dismissed from the group, her dance costume returned and "spiritually fumigated" by being "prayed over" so that it was safe to be worn by other members of the Christian group !

This same fundamentalist dance leader told me a cautionary tale of "a vicar who used to be a Morris dancer, and had to undergo deliverance ministry before he could be ordained in the Church." Hmmmmm. I seem to remember a couple of years back that there was some kind of controversy over whether a vicar was going to be allowed to bless morris dance group in a church (could have been the Abbots Bromley Horn dancers). Hmmmm, again. I find all this very difficult to comprehend.

- jeanie

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 12:07 PM

I went to a funeral for a fellow shipmate at a "New Baptist Covenant Church" just outside of Indian Head, MD (near Washington DC). I had been to several other "churches" and was quite aware of the singing, dancing, "witnessing",and other activities that are not usual to the more conservative religions, but the funeral was half Vegas and half Vatican. Needless to say but my fellow shipmates, who hadn't been exposed to this sort of thing were a bit shell shocked. The preacher even stopped and told us that they (the congregation) were not crazy. Must have been the looks on our faces.

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 12:08 PM

Is dancing sinful?

yes.

also singing, listening to poems, playing music,drinking alcohol, enjoying the taste of food, having sex, watching tv, films, & plays, shopping, all sports, reading [except bible study], doing crosswords,sunbathing, & all leisure pursuits, & any other ways of enjoying yourself are to be condemned as a multitude of sins & all those who indulge in them are destined for the firey furnace & will burn in hell!

p.s. no laughing or smiling either!!

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 12:15 PM

pps

did i leave anything out?

i'm just away to dress in sackcloth & ashes & scourge meself!

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 12:20 PM

you forgot indulging in pride ;)

and don't you DARE enjoy that scourge!

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: Jeri
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 12:23 PM

Maybe it goes back to Salome?
Here's a recitation: St. John's Eve

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 12:31 PM

Most Amish churches ban any kind of dancing but there are some Amish colonies that have always had 'play parties', which are basically barn dances presenting squares and contras. I have no idea of what they use for music, since most Amish churches ban musical instruments. I've never been to a play party. The custom is only in the more populous areas like those in Indiana and maybe Ohio, I believe.

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: GUEST,Revtink
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 12:44 PM

Well, I'm a part-time Baptist minister and working on my MTh in seminary, and I don't see the issue. Heck, didn't King David dance with joy before the Ark of the Covenant? Also, Psalm 149:3 says, "Let them praise His name with dancing" and Psalm 30:11 praises God because "You have turned for me my mourning into dancing." I really hate to see people being holier than the Bible they defend.

But ANYTHING can be used for sinful purposes (i.e., in rebellion against God). Dancing, sex, fire, computers, books, religion, etc., etc. Seems to me it isn't the dancing activity that's sinful per se, but the intention behind the dancing activity. Consider also that if it offends the person or people you're with, it just seems courteous to avoid it, even though you don't see the harm in it. I mean, why twist their consciences into knots?

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: GUEST,Les B.
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 12:51 PM

A good number of years ago I attended a Catholic boarding school on an Indian Reservation. The nuns and priests held several "indian" dances (now called Pow Wow dances) in the gym - no problem. A couple of years later I was going with a Catholic girl in a town about 100 miles away. Her priest absolutely forbade dancing. From that I assumed that anything a local priest had a bug up his butt about, could be banned. Made me realize churches were all too human in their foibles!

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: Amos
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 12:57 PM

Sinful? I'll give yer sinful -- how about suppressing the young and forcing them to dampen their enthusiasm for life, making them withdraw from the world, and teaching them that the world is a dangerous place all the time and everywhere about which they must be very careful. How's that for sins?? I'll tell the world!!

A

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 01:06 PM

I've indulged in some very sinful dancing in my time and jolly good fun it was too ;0)
Although few churches ban dancing per se in England 'High' C of E churches will not allow Morris Dancing it being an ancient fertility dance and all that. I had two morris teams dance at my wedding and look what happened to me - twins 11 months later!

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 01:18 PM

In Scotland the joke is told about Calvinists.

Russ said "My (not completely uninformed) guess is that the prohibition of dancing is limited to protestant/reform churches."

Your guess is better informed than most. The prohibition is limited (in the Christian tradition) to protestant reform churches. Catholics don't have a a corresponding tradition, which is why the problem of policing dancing in Catholic areas of Britain and Ireland became such a point of contention. The Catholic priests who attempted to ban dance were doing so in an effort to conform to the sexual and moral standards imposed by their anti-dance Protestant peers and superiors. The Christian anti-dance movement got pretty damn ugly in Ireland in the post-Famine era, and in a culture where dance and music was so highly valued, acted as just one more thing for Irish people to break free of through immigration.

Perhaps the precipitous population declines in rural Ireland in the post-Famine era should be the ultimate morality tale for organized religion. It is proof of what such extreme protestant moralism does to a people.

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 01:42 PM

I don't know if the record 'The Compleat Dancing Master' is still available, but it had a track which was Bernard Hepton as the Puritan William Prynne (reading from Histriomastix) which was a diatribe against dancing. From memory it said things like:

Dancing serves no necessary use, no profitible, laudable or pious end at all: wherefore it is wholly to be abandoned by all good Christians. The way to Heaven is too narrow for whole troops to dance in together. No way is wide enough for capering men, for skipping dancing dames, but that broad, beaten pleasant road that leads to Hell.

Sorry, I don't have time to listen to it now to give a full, accurate quaotation. But you can tell I took it to heart!

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 01:46 PM

Found it:

Dancing, is, for the most part, attended with many amorous smiles, wanton compliments, unchaste kisses, scurrilous songs and sonnets, effeminate music, lust provoking attire, ridiculous love pranks, all which savor only of sensuality, of raging fleshly lusts. Therefore, it is wholly to be abandoned of all good Christians.
Dancing serves no necessary use, no profitable, laudable, or pious end at all. It is only from the imbred pravity, vanity, wantonness, incontenency, pride, profaneness, or madness of man's depraved nature. Therefore, it must needs be unlawful unto Christians.

The way to heaven is too steep, too narrow for men to dance in and keep revel rout. No way is large or smooth enough for capering rousters, for jumping, skipping, dancing dames but that broad, beaten, pleasant road that leads to HELL. The gate of heaven is too narrow for whole rounds, whole troops of dancers to march in together.

Histriomastix (1632), Puritan William Prynne

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: Ernest
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 01:50 PM

Well ... it is a great excuse for us non-dancers ... ;0)
Ernest

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 01:55 PM

In significant portions of the Souteastern US, dancing was defined de facto as activities involving motion accompanied by music played on an instrument--particularly the fiddle, which was known to the devout as the devil's instrument.

The same physical activity without instrumental accompaniment was OK--hence play-parties.

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: KathWestra
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 02:08 PM

DMcG--THANKS for finding that! I love that Compleat Dancing Master recording, and have always loved that speech. The way it's delivered is about the best apologia FOR dancing that I can think of. (That recording, by the way, has been reissued as a CD, and is well worth buying. A real classic. Dick Greenhaus can probably get it for you.)

Seriously, I grew up in a very restrictive and judgmental Dutch Calvinist community in Grand Rapids, Michigan. I went to the church-run schools (K-12) and to Calvin College, the church-run college. Dancing was absolutely not allowed, for more or less the same reasons enunciated by Puritan Prynne. Also not allowed were movies, smoking, or drinking.(No one even acknowledged the existence of sex, much less forbid it out loud!)

Things were JUST beginning to change when I fled Grand Rapids in 1974 (after dropping out of Calvin College and being spirited away to the East Coast by Sandy and Caroline Paton to join the host of jumping, skipping, dancing dames in the contra line).

When I left, Calvin College was offering a folk dance class as part of its physical education program. Dance did not appear in the name of the class, however. It was called "Folk and Square Rhythmics." Reason: alumni donors to the college would withdraw their financial support if they saw the Dreaded D-Word in a college catalog.

This was not in Puritan New England, folks. It was less than 30 years ago.
Kathy

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: GUEST,irishajo
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 02:18 PM

Having grown up attending Assembly of God churches, I can tell you dancing is not condoned in that particular sect. Here's their take on the situation.

I was not allowed to go to high school dances. Once our school held a 'surprise' dance as a treat to the students during school hours, and I was terrified that my parents would find out and I'd be in big trouble!

FTR, I'm 28 and grew up in Indiana.

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: annamill
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 02:42 PM

Stop humming that dirty song!!!

My Mom was a Southern Baptist! Not only dancing, but no makeup, no short dresses, absolutely no slacks! Shorts, aaahhhh!!! For a very short time, my mother put me thru that. Then she woke up.

Funny, because in her old age, now I'm talking 70-present, she has loved dancing and was the hit of her VFW crowd. Couldn't keep her off the floor.

She went back to Greenville, SC about 4 years ago for a reunion of her class and believe it or not, they still were not dancing. They're still talking about my Mom down there.

The whole thing is silly to me.

BTW, I inherited my Mom's love of the dance and now, you can't keep me off the floor.

Annamill

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: Janie
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 02:42 PM

My grandparents belonged to the "Unitarian Baptist Fellowship." And it is still going strong today-- it is a small eastern Kentucky organization with a number of congregations. They do not allow dance, musical instruments or PA systems, but the unaccompanied hymn singing is absolutely thrilling.


Janie

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: Amos
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 02:48 PM

While many couples who engage in social dancing never delve into immoral behavior, 1 Thessalonians 5:22 says we are to, "Avoid every kind of evil." The best way to avoid evil is to avoid those temptations that can easily lead to the evil.

This is the kind of meretricious and stupid ratiocination that makes life on this planet so damned irritating. Of all the flibbertygibbet poppycock I have ever heard! Imagine spending your life running away from every kind of thing that you fancied was evil!! Why, you'd have no place to go, and nothing to do when you got there!!

A

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 04:33 PM

And nothing to do when you got there...

Everyone knows that idle hands are the devil's playground. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: Ditchdweller
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 04:45 PM

What about dance band musicians?

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: Ely
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 04:54 PM

From what I've seen, the dancing of young people today is definitely NOT less obscene than in the past.

My Quaker great-grandmother was read out of the faith for dancing. It might just as easily have been for singing, playing music, painting, etc. I don't know about conservative Quakers, but the liberal branch gave up on banning the arts a long time ago--we contradance and have an art exhibition at Yearly Meeting.

On the other hand, most liberal Quakers I know are there because they have had issues with Protestant reformed Christianity in the past.

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 06:02 PM

I came up in the Southern Baptist church. I am now a tattooed belly dancer with a chain around my neck that carries a silver cross, a St. Cecelia medal (patron of musicians) and a St. Michael medal (a gift from a friend).

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: Amos
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 06:03 PM

LOL, CC! Wacky business, the pursuit of intangibles, eh?

A

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: Burke
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 06:38 PM

Not dancing may be a Protestant thing in the US, but there are other cultures that forbid (or formerly forbade) men & women dancing together.

So how popular is dancing now a days anyway? I don't dance much now, but have done lots of folk & contra in the past. If I had not discovered folk I would have quit dancing a long time earlier. Even 30 years ago it was either no touching & shake or hang on each other like you're madly in lust. Most dances were guys over there, gals here & once you started dancing you were together for the evening. None of this was very conducive to the courtship role that dancing traditionally provided.

I can remember my mom warning me that it was easy to fall in love with a good dancer, but that he might not make a good husband. I could easily fall in love with a good waltzer, it makes me feel so good.

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: greg stephens
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 07:02 PM

The answer to this question depends pretty much on your attitude to fornication. If you happen to belong to some branch of religion that considers fornication sinful, I suggest you avoid dancing, because one thing sure as hell leads to another. Otherwise, enjoy both.

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 07:47 PM

It isn't just a US thing. As I said earlier, in the Christian tradition, it is a Protestant thing.

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: Deckman
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 08:38 PM

Right after high school I went into the Army. After the Army, I spent my freshman year of College at a Free Methodist College in Seattle. No nothing: dancing, movies, lipstick, nothing. I lived with three other guys in our rental house across the street from the school. One night my Mother dropped by late. I was called into the Dean of Men's office at daybreak the next day and asked to explain who and why this "WOMAN" was seen leaving my house. I told him to go to heck and I quit school. Two hours later, my Father had a conversation with him. CHEERS, Bob

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: Ely
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 10:26 PM

Deckman--
    Geez, was the lipstick prohibition that hard on you?

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: Hrothgar
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 10:27 PM

I hope you weren't dancing with her, Bob.

:-)

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: Deckman
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 10:36 PM

After the Army, everything was hard on me! Bob

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: Alice
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 11:15 PM

What a timely thread. Tomorrow I am dancing hula for an event. Hula was almost elimnated by the missionaries. It's a beautiful tradition, and I'm proud to be able to share it.

Alice Flynn

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Aug 03 - 12:08 AM

My mother quoted me a line she read in a tract somewhere: "The best dancers are prostitutes." So now you know. :)

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: Amos
Date: 15 Aug 03 - 12:17 AM

Great story, Bob. Although it's a little late, I would like to offer my applause for your courage in standing up to those rectal characters so long ago!


A

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 15 Aug 03 - 03:54 AM

If it isn't you ain't doin' it right!

RtS (aka two left feet)
("Yo' dancin'?"
"Yo' askin'?"
"I'm askin'"
"I'm dancin'")

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: greg stephens
Date: 15 Aug 03 - 05:16 AM

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: Blues=Life
Date: 15 Aug 03 - 08:45 AM

RtS, you stole my line:
Is dancing sinful?
Only if you're doing it right!

(I attend a Southern Baptist church here in SC, and the pastor jokes about forbidding dancing. Not an active proscription, that I can see. However, I attended a Jazz Liturgy a few weeks ago, at First Presbyterian Church in Davenport, Iowa, during the Bix Biederbeck Jazz Festival. First Pres is my home church, and is the church Bix grew up in. A very talented group of High School and College kids did a song and dance number that included "Give Me That Old Time Religion." All I could think of is that there are probably hundreds of old time Southern Baptists spinning in their graves still, caused by young people mixing that song with (gasp) DANCING! Me... I don't worry about it all.)

Still playing "the devil's music",
Blues

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: Bert
Date: 15 Aug 03 - 10:38 AM

I wonder how this ended up in the BS section? Someone in the BS police must be terribly ignorant of music and folklore.

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Aug 03 - 12:16 PM

I thought that yesterday too Bert, when I saw the thread had been moved to BS.

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: Amos
Date: 15 Aug 03 - 01:35 PM

It might be true that the best prostitutes are dancers. I doubt the reverse is true though. I believe that the best dancers are the best dancers.

A

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: curmudgeon
Date: 15 Aug 03 - 02:49 PM

Way back when I was a kid, a classmate and his family were members of a Baptist church next town over; very proper, no swearing, drinking, card playing, smoking, or dancing.

But the irony is in the church building itself, a classic New England white one. It seems that the money to build it was given by the very wealthy brewer Frank Jones to please his wife. Thus, at the top of the steeple is a pure white carving of a beer bottle -- Tom

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: lady penelope
Date: 15 Aug 03 - 03:53 PM

There is only one real sin, to treat people as things.

I was brought up as a catholic and have long pondered this idea of sin. I have wrestled with the idea that God found fibbing as bad as murder ( as my priest would have it ) and eventually resolved that I would be a Pagan.

I find it hard to believe that a God would make human bodies capable of such joy and beauty and then demand that this should be set aside and never demonstrated.

I reckon this banning of dance stems from people who are obsessed with sex. Everything to do with the body is reduced to sex and therefore, when not to do with making babies in holy matrimony, 'sinful'. Some people need to raise their thoughts above the belt line..........

I started belly dance classes last year and I thoroughly enjoy myself. I find it totally invigorating and it's all for me. Anyone wants to get their jollies watching someone dancing will have to go elsewhere. I probably won't even know they're there.........

Exit Lady P. hip flick, hip drop, hip flick, hip drop, shimmy, shimmy, belly rolls on toes, drape veil down back..................... : )

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: annamill
Date: 15 Aug 03 - 08:20 PM

Bert and Guest, it was my fault. You have to be careful when you drop words.

Love, Annamill

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Aug 03 - 08:49 PM

"dancing is the vertical expression of a horizontal compulsion"

I read that somewhere the other day. I suppose definitions like that are what gets it banned in some circles.

As a Philosophy major, I sometimes studied the logical basis of moral imperatives...it is almost impossible to really understand the claims involved in "dancing is sinful" and still accept them..*sigh*..but most groups that are against dancing are also against too much 'understanding'.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Is dancing sinful?
From: Marion
Date: 15 Aug 03 - 10:51 PM

Dancing was a sin when I was growing up (Brethren family); we weren't allowed to attend school dances - which was just fine with me, but my sisters suffered over it.

Basically, dancing was seen as a form of foreplay - fine with your husband and in private, but not in public or with some guy you're trying to motivate to buy the cow. My dad's theory was that most teenage pregnancies occurred after dances.

In elementary school, the dances were held during school hours and were compulsory unless you had a note from your parents. They would gather the virtuous kids from various grades and show us a movie or have some other activity. I'm amused to remember that once, during a Halloween dance, they showed all us fundamentalist kids a vampire movie. I wonder if that was someone's deliberate decision to subvert our parents' guidance, or if it just never occurred to them that vampires might be even worse...

Marion

Subject: RE: Folklore: Is dancing sinful?
From: Amos
Date: 15 Aug 03 - 11:13 PM

Well, the risk of teen pregnancy is a bit higher than the risk of vampiric inoculation starting an epidemic...


A

Subject: RE: Folklore: Is dancing sinful?
From: robinia
Date: 16 Aug 03 - 03:28 AM

Has anyone mentioned that in the Southern Mountains, at least, dances (and fiddle playing) were associated with serious drinking. "Play parties" were OK because they didn't have the same associations. In other words, it wasn't dancing per se....

Subject: RE: Folklore: Is dancing sinful?
From: poetlady
Date: 16 Aug 03 - 05:27 AM

I find irishajo's comment odd because I grew up in the same denomination, and I believe even the minister's daughter attended dances. I and my sister did, as did a good many people I went to church with. It seems the church's official statement discourages, but does not outright forbid, it.

Russ, who said it was more or less a Protestant thing is somewhat right, I suppose. I do recall reading, though, that Martin Luther himself said that dancing was a very healthy and proper way for young people to socialize.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Is dancing sinful?
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 16 Aug 03 - 06:25 AM

Robinia,

The complete set of associated activities is:
fiddle playing, dancing, drinking, violence

Subject: RE: Folklore: Is dancing sinful?
From: Amos
Date: 16 Aug 03 - 11:56 AM

Well it's better for young people to socialize through dancing than through starting gang wars or giant orgies, I guess.

A

Subject: RE: Folklore: Is dancing sinful?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Aug 03 - 12:04 PM

What's wrong with orgies, Amos?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Is dancing sinful?
From: Bert
Date: 16 Aug 03 - 11:57 PM

Well don't do it again Annamill ;-)

The real perpetrator has already chewed me out by PM.

So I'll say sorry here, I didn't mean to offend the guy. He was trying to help, and he's always done a great job here. But I still, for the life of me, can't see how dancing is BS.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Is dancing sinful?
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Aug 03 - 07:13 PM

Growing up Catholic, dancing wasn't sinful as long as you didn't dance too closely together, too slowly, too fast, or do anything at all that might inspire impure thoughts.

Oddly enough, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) have never had prohibitions agains either divorce or dancing. Joseph Smith himself, and Brigham Young after him, thought that supervised dances and parties were a Good Thing and brought people together.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Is dancing sinful?
From: Amos
Date: 17 Aug 03 - 07:36 PM

When I was that age, I thought about screwing a lot -- but there wasn't anything impure about it...I was thinking purely about screwing!

I didn't say there was anything wrong with orgies, anonymous one. But teenagers tend to get pregnant at the first mention of the first syllable of one. They get knocked up just scheduling an orgy, let alone going to one. And that interferes with their going to college and such...

A

Subject: RE: Folklore: Is dancing sinful?
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Aug 03 - 07:48 PM

definition of "Father"

a man who doesn't want his daughter doing what he wanted other men's daughters to do when he was their age.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Is dancing sinful?
From: Blues=Life
Date: 18 Aug 03 - 08:58 AM

Bill, you are absolutely correct.
After my daughter was born, someone told me that "Teenage daughters are God's way of punishing you for the way you behaved as a teenaged boy." Man, am I in trouble!
Blues

Subject: RE: Folklore: Is dancing sinful?
From: Amos
Date: 18 Aug 03 - 09:04 AM

It is absolutely possible to raise a human being from a teenager. But it takes absolute focus, bottomless affinity, the patience of purgatory and a river of communication.

Not too much to ask, really.....


A

Subject: RE: Folklore: Is dancing sinful?
From: Jon W.
Date: 18 Aug 03 - 10:51 AM

I, being a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints, have just finished building three banjos which commemorate various periods of the early history of the church. The one which commemmorates the pioneer era (i.e. the Mormons' migration to Utah) has the following quotation from our latter day scripture (through Brigham Young) on the back: "If thou art merry, praise the Lord with singing, with music, with dancing, and with a prayer of praise and thanksgiving. (Doctrine & Covenants 136:28)" Anyway, dance has always been an important part of the LDS social life - but should be done in such a way as to avoid being suggestive, lewd, etc. I'm currently involved in a living history park here in Salt Lake, which tries to reproduce aspects of Mormon Pioneer life, and we are trying to get a traditional string band together to play for the dances.

BTW the early settlers enjoyed set dances such as square, contra, English country etc. because they built unity within the community. As our park historian says, it's hard to dance with your neigbor and stay mad at him or her. The waltz was not as acceptible at first, because it was a partner dance and didn't necessarily foster the same type of unity. Now the church leaders would be (and are) overjoyed with the sight of young people waltzing.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Is dancing sinful?
From: KateG
Date: 18 Aug 03 - 05:55 PM

My mother went to Carleton College in Minnesota in the late 1940's. Her college allowed dancing. A neighboring school, St. Olaf's, forbade dancing but allowed the students to have cars. Result...at least 3x as may Ole co-eds went home pregnant, a fact which gave her much amusement (but then she was/is a superb ballroom dancer). Fortunately, my husband -- an Ole grad -- was able to reassure her that times have changed, and Carltonians now fornicate and Ole's dance.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Is dancing sinful?
From: LadyJean
Date: 18 Aug 03 - 06:11 PM

I have this from my cousin John Caldwell, who lives in Northern Kentucky.
A couple taught at a small school, (two rooms) in a small town in Kentucky. Most of the community were Southern Baptist. The husband discovered English country dancing, and decided he wanted to teach the kids. He began with the eighth grade, calling the dances "round games". The graduation exercises featured the 8th graders playing round games. The parents rose as one and demanded that ALL their children learn to play round games, and their teachers were happy to oblige.
The kids loved them, apparently. The favorite was Flowers of Edinburgh, done at double speed. The kids called it "The Blue Racer".

At the risk of going on too long, I offer the following: A man went into a store to buy a bra for his wife. The clerk asked, "What kind of bra does she wear?" The man said, "What kind are there?" The clerk said, "Well, the Roman Catholic bra upholds the masses. The Salvation Army bra uplifts the fallen, and the Southern Baptist bra makes mountains out of molehills." I heard that from a Southern Baptist!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Is dancing sinful?
From: Blues=Life
Date: 18 Aug 03 - 10:22 PM

Lady Jean, I like your sense of humor. I've gone to both Methodist and Baptist Churches, so let me add the following South Carolina joke.

What's the principal difference between Methodists and Baptists?
A Methodist will recognize and talk to you in the liquor store.

Peace,
Blues

Subject: RE: Folklore: Is dancing sinful?
From: stevethesqueeze
Date: 19 Aug 03 - 04:56 AM

I have had problems here in semi rural wales.

i run a little childrens country dance group in the local village and was horrifed to be told by the leader of one the churches in the area that it was wrong and that I shouldn't be encouraging children to do this.

The minister/pastor/leader told me that dancing encourages contact between the sexes and that it leads to immorality.

Needles to say I paid no heed although I was very upset. I realise that in times gone by the saturday night country dance probably did lead to immorality as it was the only place the sexes could meet, thats actually part of what dancing is all about of cours, its a safe way to meet members of the opposite sex, "change your partners" etc. But to believe that it is immoral to teach the Bridge of Athlone to primary school kids?

Mind you many have said that my meldoeon playing is sinful and I understand castagnari have put a contract out on my fingers...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Is dancing sinful?
From: Kim C
Date: 19 Aug 03 - 10:18 AM

I have always loved to dance, Baptist upbringing or no, and I always thought the prohibitions against dancing were silly. Your body naturally wants to MOVE! Why fight it?

My mother hasn't said much about my belly dancing.

Back in the old days, it was considered bad manners to dance with your spouse. It's in the 19th century etiquette books that you shouldn't dance with your spouse, or with one person too many times. A dance was a community social event, and you were expected to mingle. It was bad form to monopolize another person's time and attention.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Is dancing sinful?
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Aug 03 - 04:34 PM

lady penelope and Kim C, I will enjoy watching belly dancing once they make it a rule that each performance has to include a real life eunuch. Authenticity, you know.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Is dancing sinful?
From: Kim C
Date: 19 Aug 03 - 04:43 PM

Ebbie, I never heard that one. As far as I know, the eunuchs just stood around to guard the harem. ;-)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Is dancing sinful?
From: lady penelope
Date: 19 Aug 03 - 07:06 PM

Aah, Ebbie, common myth, harems were full of lushious women and eunuchs.

The normal harem in north Africa was an extended family and servants/slaves.

Only 'mighty' kings who had more women than they knew what to do with had to have them guarded by eunuchs.

If you want to see me belly dancing you only have to promise not to look!

Baladi dancing ( where what most us know as belly dancing came from ) is almost like the female version of morris dancing. I shall now retire gracefully and see what that last comment stirs up........   : )

TTFN Lady P.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Is dancing sinful?
From: LadyJean
Date: 19 Aug 03 - 10:45 PM

I took a belly dance course at Ohio University. My advisor thought it was a howl. The teacher, Karen Everson, remains one of my dearest friends. She used to tell me about dancing at a church bazaar. The audience was, largely, women. There was one man in a black turtleneck, watching, and smiling, so she went over to him, and did a little shimmy. Afterwards, she was told she'd just shimmied at a priest. His sole response was, "My child you danced divinely".
I remember a French Canadian folk song about a young woman who defies her parents, and goes dancing, with her brother. Their sleigh falls into a river, as punishment for their sin. It seems a bit extreme to me.