Folklore: Is dancing sinful?

Subject: Is dancing sinful?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 10:06 AM

While searching for something else, I ran across this summary of Antidance Literature at the Library of Congress site. It contains lots of links to the texts of anti-dance religious tracts (or should that be "contra-dance"?), as well as some defenses of dancing, and some articles on the regulation of dance-halls.

This brings back memories. As a kid, I knew other kids, even some of my own relatives, who belonged to churches that prohibited dancing. I have not encountered that sort of thing in recent years, but maybe that's because I now live in a different and more liberal part of the country.

Although there are famous controversies about prayer in public schools, and about teaching evolution, and there is an occasional outcry about obscene or violent lyrics, I never hear anything any more from that sector about dancing per se. Why is that?

I wonder if the kind of dancing that kids do now is actually less objectionable to religious conservatives than the old ballroom dancing--because couples nowadays rarely touch each other, it seems. Or is it just because the religious conservatives believe they have bigger fish to fry nowadays?

I'd be interested in hearing other people's stories from personal experience. Are there still denominations that ban dancing? Anybody here formerly or currently belong to one? Anyone heard of any recent controversies about dancing?

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 10:41 AM

Au contraire:

I haven't heard any negative comments about dancing in any church I've attended, and because I sing with a gospel quartet, I've been in a LOT of churches of all denominations in the last few years. As a matter of fact, one of the strongest movements in the black churches has been the emergence of Praise Dancing as part of a worship service. There are biblical refences to King David being so overjoyed that he actually danced himself right out of his clothes... in public! They don't even do that in hip hop!.

As for current dancing, not only do dancers touch each other, they interlock their hips and go through all the motions of intercourse, and hands on butts are a common move (along with crotch grabbing.)
Compare that to the Tennessee waltz... Nothing is left to the imagination any more.

Judging will never go out of style, unfortunately... whether its the religious right, conservatives, liberals, folkies or ME, unless I keep on my guard.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: jimmyt
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 10:49 AM

I was formerly a member of the Seventh Day Adventist Church, and they are adamantly opposed to dancing. (As you can guess, that, and several hundred other reasons caused me to leave that religion) The old joke was why don't Adventists have sex standing up, and the answer is they are afraid some church member would see them through the window and think they were dancing!

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: shiny
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 11:08 AM

Our Aussie version of the same joke is that Methodists aren't allowed to make love standing up because they might be tempted to dance!

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 11:08 AM

Seventh Day Adventists never invited us to sing for them, jimmy.. :-)

Jerry

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: jimmyt
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 11:14 AM

Jerry, you are a little too caught up in Justification by Faith and Salvation by Grace being a free gift without needing works to earn your way aboard to suit them! Good to hear your cybervoice, Jerry!

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 11:18 AM

Dancing is still a no-no for Southern Baptists. I went to a Presbyterian Church as a youth. My Southern Baptist friends were scandalized that we danced IN CHURCH (specifically the "fellowshiip hall" as it was called).

Ditto Old Regular Baptists. A denomination found only in Eastern Kentucky (I think).

My (not completely uninformed) guess is that the prohibition of dancing is limited to protestant/reform churches.

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: GUEST,Elfcall
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 11:26 AM

My dancing has been described as diabolical !

Elfcall

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 11:27 AM

Looks like I go to all the wrong churches.. I remember the surprise when my group sang at a funeral service, and people got up out of their pews and were dancing in the aisles...

Jerry

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 11:51 AM

Jerry,

It's not that they are the "wrong" churches. They are just not a representative sample. At least as far as "southern" Christianity is concerned.

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: Amos
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 11:53 AM

Methodists aren't allowed to make love standing up because they might be tempted to dance!

That is really funny, shiny!!

The notion that dancing could be "sinful" is just ridiculous.

A

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 11:55 AM

Amos - you've never seen me dance!

'sinfully atrocious'

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: Jeanie
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 12:06 PM

A few years ago I came across a lady who ran a Christian dance worship group - so dance was acceptable to her, but only certain kinds. A woman who belonged to her group was found to also be a belly dancer - and she was unceremoniously dismissed from the group, her dance costume returned and "spiritually fumigated" by being "prayed over" so that it was safe to be worn by other members of the Christian group !

This same fundamentalist dance leader told me a cautionary tale of "a vicar who used to be a Morris dancer, and had to undergo deliverance ministry before he could be ordained in the Church." Hmmmmm. I seem to remember a couple of years back that there was some kind of controversy over whether a vicar was going to be allowed to bless morris dance group in a church (could have been the Abbots Bromley Horn dancers). Hmmmm, again. I find all this very difficult to comprehend.

- jeanie

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 12:07 PM

I went to a funeral for a fellow shipmate at a "New Baptist Covenant Church" just outside of Indian Head, MD (near Washington DC). I had been to several other "churches" and was quite aware of the singing, dancing, "witnessing",and other activities that are not usual to the more conservative religions, but the funeral was half Vegas and half Vatican. Needless to say but my fellow shipmates, who hadn't been exposed to this sort of thing were a bit shell shocked. The preacher even stopped and told us that they (the congregation) were not crazy. Must have been the looks on our faces.

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 12:08 PM

Is dancing sinful?

yes.

also singing, listening to poems, playing music,drinking alcohol, enjoying the taste of food, having sex, watching tv, films, & plays, shopping, all sports, reading [except bible study], doing crosswords,sunbathing, & all leisure pursuits, & any other ways of enjoying yourself are to be condemned as a multitude of sins & all those who indulge in them are destined for the firey furnace & will burn in hell!

p.s. no laughing or smiling either!!

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 12:15 PM

pps

did i leave anything out?

i'm just away to dress in sackcloth & ashes & scourge meself!

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 12:20 PM

you forgot indulging in pride ;)

and don't you DARE enjoy that scourge!

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: Jeri
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 12:23 PM

Maybe it goes back to Salome?
Here's a recitation: St. John's Eve

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 12:31 PM

Most Amish churches ban any kind of dancing but there are some Amish colonies that have always had 'play parties', which are basically barn dances presenting squares and contras. I have no idea of what they use for music, since most Amish churches ban musical instruments. I've never been to a play party. The custom is only in the more populous areas like those in Indiana and maybe Ohio, I believe.

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: GUEST,Revtink
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 12:44 PM

Well, I'm a part-time Baptist minister and working on my MTh in seminary, and I don't see the issue. Heck, didn't King David dance with joy before the Ark of the Covenant? Also, Psalm 149:3 says, "Let them praise His name with dancing" and Psalm 30:11 praises God because "You have turned for me my mourning into dancing." I really hate to see people being holier than the Bible they defend.

But ANYTHING can be used for sinful purposes (i.e., in rebellion against God). Dancing, sex, fire, computers, books, religion, etc., etc. Seems to me it isn't the dancing activity that's sinful per se, but the intention behind the dancing activity. Consider also that if it offends the person or people you're with, it just seems courteous to avoid it, even though you don't see the harm in it. I mean, why twist their consciences into knots?

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: GUEST,Les B.
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 12:51 PM

A good number of years ago I attended a Catholic boarding school on an Indian Reservation. The nuns and priests held several "indian" dances (now called Pow Wow dances) in the gym - no problem. A couple of years later I was going with a Catholic girl in a town about 100 miles away. Her priest absolutely forbade dancing. From that I assumed that anything a local priest had a bug up his butt about, could be banned. Made me realize churches were all too human in their foibles!

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: Amos
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 12:57 PM

Sinful? I'll give yer sinful -- how about suppressing the young and forcing them to dampen their enthusiasm for life, making them withdraw from the world, and teaching them that the world is a dangerous place all the time and everywhere about which they must be very careful. How's that for sins?? I'll tell the world!!

A

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 01:06 PM

I've indulged in some very sinful dancing in my time and jolly good fun it was too ;0)
Although few churches ban dancing per se in England 'High' C of E churches will not allow Morris Dancing it being an ancient fertility dance and all that. I had two morris teams dance at my wedding and look what happened to me - twins 11 months later!

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 01:18 PM

In Scotland the joke is told about Calvinists.

Russ said "My (not completely uninformed) guess is that the prohibition of dancing is limited to protestant/reform churches."

Your guess is better informed than most. The prohibition is limited (in the Christian tradition) to protestant reform churches. Catholics don't have a a corresponding tradition, which is why the problem of policing dancing in Catholic areas of Britain and Ireland became such a point of contention. The Catholic priests who attempted to ban dance were doing so in an effort to conform to the sexual and moral standards imposed by their anti-dance Protestant peers and superiors. The Christian anti-dance movement got pretty damn ugly in Ireland in the post-Famine era, and in a culture where dance and music was so highly valued, acted as just one more thing for Irish people to break free of through immigration.

Perhaps the precipitous population declines in rural Ireland in the post-Famine era should be the ultimate morality tale for organized religion. It is proof of what such extreme protestant moralism does to a people.

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 01:42 PM

I don't know if the record 'The Compleat Dancing Master' is still available, but it had a track which was Bernard Hepton as the Puritan William Prynne (reading from Histriomastix) which was a diatribe against dancing. From memory it said things like:

Dancing serves no necessary use, no profitible, laudable or pious end at all: wherefore it is wholly to be abandoned by all good Christians. The way to Heaven is too narrow for whole troops to dance in together. No way is wide enough for capering men, for skipping dancing dames, but that broad, beaten pleasant road that leads to Hell.

Sorry, I don't have time to listen to it now to give a full, accurate quaotation. But you can tell I took it to heart!

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 01:46 PM

Found it:

Dancing, is, for the most part, attended with many amorous smiles, wanton compliments, unchaste kisses, scurrilous songs and sonnets, effeminate music, lust provoking attire, ridiculous love pranks, all which savor only of sensuality, of raging fleshly lusts. Therefore, it is wholly to be abandoned of all good Christians.
Dancing serves no necessary use, no profitable, laudable, or pious end at all. It is only from the imbred pravity, vanity, wantonness, incontenency, pride, profaneness, or madness of man's depraved nature. Therefore, it must needs be unlawful unto Christians.

The way to heaven is too steep, too narrow for men to dance in and keep revel rout. No way is large or smooth enough for capering rousters, for jumping, skipping, dancing dames but that broad, beaten, pleasant road that leads to HELL. The gate of heaven is too narrow for whole rounds, whole troops of dancers to march in together.

Histriomastix (1632), Puritan William Prynne

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: Ernest
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 01:50 PM

Well ... it is a great excuse for us non-dancers ... ;0)
Ernest

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 01:55 PM

In significant portions of the Souteastern US, dancing was defined de facto as activities involving motion accompanied by music played on an instrument--particularly the fiddle, which was known to the devout as the devil's instrument.

The same physical activity without instrumental accompaniment was OK--hence play-parties.

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: KathWestra
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 02:08 PM

DMcG--THANKS for finding that! I love that Compleat Dancing Master recording, and have always loved that speech. The way it's delivered is about the best apologia FOR dancing that I can think of. (That recording, by the way, has been reissued as a CD, and is well worth buying. A real classic. Dick Greenhaus can probably get it for you.)

Seriously, I grew up in a very restrictive and judgmental Dutch Calvinist community in Grand Rapids, Michigan. I went to the church-run schools (K-12) and to Calvin College, the church-run college. Dancing was absolutely not allowed, for more or less the same reasons enunciated by Puritan Prynne. Also not allowed were movies, smoking, or drinking.(No one even acknowledged the existence of sex, much less forbid it out loud!)

Things were JUST beginning to change when I fled Grand Rapids in 1974 (after dropping out of Calvin College and being spirited away to the East Coast by Sandy and Caroline Paton to join the host of jumping, skipping, dancing dames in the contra line).

When I left, Calvin College was offering a folk dance class as part of its physical education program. Dance did not appear in the name of the class, however. It was called "Folk and Square Rhythmics." Reason: alumni donors to the college would withdraw their financial support if they saw the Dreaded D-Word in a college catalog.

This was not in Puritan New England, folks. It was less than 30 years ago.
Kathy

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: GUEST,irishajo
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 02:18 PM

Having grown up attending Assembly of God churches, I can tell you dancing is not condoned in that particular sect. Here's their take on the situation.

I was not allowed to go to high school dances. Once our school held a 'surprise' dance as a treat to the students during school hours, and I was terrified that my parents would find out and I'd be in big trouble!

FTR, I'm 28 and grew up in Indiana.

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: annamill
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 02:42 PM

Stop humming that dirty song!!!

My Mom was a Southern Baptist! Not only dancing, but no makeup, no short dresses, absolutely no slacks! Shorts, aaahhhh!!! For a very short time, my mother put me thru that. Then she woke up.

Funny, because in her old age, now I'm talking 70-present, she has loved dancing and was the hit of her VFW crowd. Couldn't keep her off the floor.

She went back to Greenville, SC about 4 years ago for a reunion of her class and believe it or not, they still were not dancing. They're still talking about my Mom down there.

The whole thing is silly to me.

BTW, I inherited my Mom's love of the dance and now, you can't keep me off the floor.

Annamill

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: Janie
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 02:42 PM

My grandparents belonged to the "Unitarian Baptist Fellowship." And it is still going strong today-- it is a small eastern Kentucky organization with a number of congregations. They do not allow dance, musical instruments or PA systems, but the unaccompanied hymn singing is absolutely thrilling.


Janie

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: Amos
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 02:48 PM

While many couples who engage in social dancing never delve into immoral behavior, 1 Thessalonians 5:22 says we are to, "Avoid every kind of evil." The best way to avoid evil is to avoid those temptations that can easily lead to the evil.

This is the kind of meretricious and stupid ratiocination that makes life on this planet so damned irritating. Of all the flibbertygibbet poppycock I have ever heard! Imagine spending your life running away from every kind of thing that you fancied was evil!! Why, you'd have no place to go, and nothing to do when you got there!!

A

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 04:33 PM

And nothing to do when you got there...

Everyone knows that idle hands are the devil's playground. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: Ditchdweller
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 04:45 PM

What about dance band musicians?

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: Ely
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 04:54 PM

From what I've seen, the dancing of young people today is definitely NOT less obscene than in the past.

My Quaker great-grandmother was read out of the faith for dancing. It might just as easily have been for singing, playing music, painting, etc. I don't know about conservative Quakers, but the liberal branch gave up on banning the arts a long time ago--we contradance and have an art exhibition at Yearly Meeting.

On the other hand, most liberal Quakers I know are there because they have had issues with Protestant reformed Christianity in the past.

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 06:02 PM

I came up in the Southern Baptist church. I am now a tattooed belly dancer with a chain around my neck that carries a silver cross, a St. Cecelia medal (patron of musicians) and a St. Michael medal (a gift from a friend).

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: Amos
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 06:03 PM

LOL, CC! Wacky business, the pursuit of intangibles, eh?

A

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: Burke
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 06:38 PM

Not dancing may be a Protestant thing in the US, but there are other cultures that forbid (or formerly forbade) men & women dancing together.

So how popular is dancing now a days anyway? I don't dance much now, but have done lots of folk & contra in the past. If I had not discovered folk I would have quit dancing a long time earlier. Even 30 years ago it was either no touching & shake or hang on each other like you're madly in lust. Most dances were guys over there, gals here & once you started dancing you were together for the evening. None of this was very conducive to the courtship role that dancing traditionally provided.

I can remember my mom warning me that it was easy to fall in love with a good dancer, but that he might not make a good husband. I could easily fall in love with a good waltzer, it makes me feel so good.

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: greg stephens
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 07:02 PM

The answer to this question depends pretty much on your attitude to fornication. If you happen to belong to some branch of religion that considers fornication sinful, I suggest you avoid dancing, because one thing sure as hell leads to another. Otherwise, enjoy both.

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 07:47 PM

It isn't just a US thing. As I said earlier, in the Christian tradition, it is a Protestant thing.

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: Deckman
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 08:38 PM

Right after high school I went into the Army. After the Army, I spent my freshman year of College at a Free Methodist College in Seattle. No nothing: dancing, movies, lipstick, nothing. I lived with three other guys in our rental house across the street from the school. One night my Mother dropped by late. I was called into the Dean of Men's office at daybreak the next day and asked to explain who and why this "WOMAN" was seen leaving my house. I told him to go to heck and I quit school. Two hours later, my Father had a conversation with him. CHEERS, Bob

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: Ely
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 10:26 PM

Deckman--
    Geez, was the lipstick prohibition that hard on you?

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: Hrothgar
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 10:27 PM

I hope you weren't dancing with her, Bob.

:-)

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: Deckman
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 10:36 PM

After the Army, everything was hard on me! Bob

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: Alice
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 11:15 PM

What a timely thread. Tomorrow I am dancing hula for an event. Hula was almost elimnated by the missionaries. It's a beautiful tradition, and I'm proud to be able to share it.

Alice Flynn

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Aug 03 - 12:08 AM

My mother quoted me a line she read in a tract somewhere: "The best dancers are prostitutes." So now you know. :)

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: Amos
Date: 15 Aug 03 - 12:17 AM

Great story, Bob. Although it's a little late, I would like to offer my applause for your courage in standing up to those rectal characters so long ago!


A

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 15 Aug 03 - 03:54 AM

If it isn't you ain't doin' it right!

RtS (aka two left feet)
("Yo' dancin'?"
"Yo' askin'?"
"I'm askin'"
"I'm dancin'")

Subject: RE: Is dancing sinful?
From: greg stephens
Date: 15 Aug 03 - 05:16 AM