Origins: Liverpool Judies

Subject: Origins: Liverpool Judies
From: GUEST,cujimmy
Date: 24 Aug 03 - 11:50 AM

Can anyone tell me what Liverpool Judies are as in various folk songs.

Subject: RE: Origins: Liverpool Judies
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 24 Aug 03 - 11:59 AM

I believe they are professional girlfriends. Though I could be way off base.

Subject: RE: Origins: Liverpool Judies
From: Max
Date: 24 Aug 03 - 12:10 PM

I've always heard they were whores, but I saw this on the net a few times:

"I read somewhere once that Liverpool Judies were contrary winds, and the ship had to be warped or towed with a longboat out of port."

In this thread: http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=16994 Bert says:

"The way I heard it was that a Judy used to be a hooker but has now been accepted to mean any girl. And the phrase 'Liverpool Judies have got us in tow' was due to a piece of nautical folklore which held that the 'trade winds' were 'the whores of Liverpool pulling them home'. "

Subject: RE: Origins: Liverpool Judies
From: The Walrus
Date: 24 Aug 03 - 12:12 PM

'Judies' are, I believe, just girls (in the Liverpool dialect), with no implications that they are 'ladies of negotiable affection', however, in the context of most of the songs in which they appear, I believe one could assume professional (or at least 'shamature') status.

Walrus

Subject: RE: Origins: Liverpool Judies
From: Jim McLean
Date: 24 Aug 03 - 01:17 PM

A 'Judy cop' is a policewoman so I think Judy just means a woman. I've heard my father saying 'what a fine looking judy' when he meant a woman but not of 'ill repute'.

Subject: RE: Origins: Liverpool Judies
From: Barry Finn
Date: 25 Aug 03 - 08:04 AM

It also is refers to the winds that pulls a sailor & their ships home "Those Liverpoool Judies have got us in tow". Barry

Subject: RE: Origins: Liverpool Judies
From: Melani
Date: 25 Aug 03 - 01:29 PM

"Professional girlfriends"...great line! I like it.

Subject: RE: Origins: Liverpool Judies
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Aug 03 - 05:36 PM

Judy is a Liverpool term just meaning a young woman - no overtones. e.g. a young Liverpudlian goes to a party and asks "Where's the judies, like?" i.e. where's the women? There is a mention in The Crack was 90" "the Liverpool judies it was said, had all gone down to the Douglas Head". Having said that, I haven't heard the term used recently in Liverpool although I think it would still be acceptable in the right context.

Subject: RE: Origins: Liverpool Judies
From: Bonecruncher
Date: 25 Aug 03 - 07:25 PM

"Judies" is definitely a Liverpool term for any girl.
Women were used to haul ships ashore or from dock to dock before tugs were motorised, using a long line. They are the "Judies" referred to in the song.
A similar reference exists in "The Mingulay Boat Song".
Hope this helps.

Subject: RE: Origins: Liverpool Judies
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 26 Aug 03 - 01:29 AM

G'day,

It's interesting to see the energy with which so many 'catters want to bowdlerise those nasty sailor chaps!

"Judies" is perfectly good Scouse for simply "(young?) women" ... but the song is about "those Liverpool Judies" ... Which ones?

These ones:
And now we've arrived in the Bramleymoor Dock,
And all them flash judies on the pierhead do flock.

these are "Flash Judies" ... they aren't dockside haulers ... they aren't nice tail winds drawing the ship home ... they sure as hell aren't ".... contrary winds, and the ship had to be warped or towed with a longboat out of port ..."

Subject: RE: Origins: Liverpool Judies
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 26 Aug 03 - 01:32 AM

Whoops ... bumped the wrong button!

Anyway, my point is that we are dealing with folksongs ... not legal documents or doctoral theses. The particular meaning is drawn from a range of poetic/lyrical devices ... and has to be interpreted in the light of the lyrics.

Phil Cooper was not "way off base"!

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: Origins: Liverpool Judies
From: allanwill
Date: 26 Aug 03 - 02:56 AM

Bloody hell, Bob, Is there ANY limit to your knowledge.

The thing that gets me about the Mudcat is how many times I've wondered about something and thought, nah, that's too mundane/stupid/whatever to ask and then find someone does ask the same question and it turns into the most fascinating discussion.

Allan.

Subject: RE: Origins: Liverpool Judies
From: Gurney
Date: 26 Aug 03 - 04:26 AM

Judies, sheilas, dames, all local generic names for girls. In other shanties they are referred to as 'towrope girls,' and Stan Hugill believed that was because of their attractiveness pulling the ship into port.
Can't remember if that came up in conversation or is in one of his books.

Subject: RE: Origins: Liverpool Judies
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 26 Aug 03 - 09:07 AM

I incline toward the flash girls interpretation. Stan was always a gentleman and very proper in his attitudes toward the fairer sex. Consider, however, that most of the sailors' interactions were with women who stood to have a good time and/or make a living by sharing their affections with Jack. As mentioned above, the term "Judies" is not quite politespeak.

Subject: RE: Origins: Liverpool Judies
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 26 Aug 03 - 09:40 AM

Well, I can quote an impeccable reference for it being the winds! If you read Richard Dana's Two years before the mast you'll find he says 'She was going at a prodigious rate [...] The captain walked the deck at a rapid stride, looked aloft at the sails, and then to windward; the mate stood in the gangway, rubbing his hands, and talking aloud to the ship- "Hurrah, old bucket! the Boston girls have got hold of the tow-rope!"'

I rest my case.

Steve

Subject: RE: Origins: Liverpool Judies
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 26 Aug 03 - 09:49 AM

G'day Steve,

An excellent illustration of just what I was talking about - the poetry of the song isn't restricted by any singular, restrictive meaning ... the favourable winds are mentally tied to the attractions of the "Boston Girls", in this case - they are neither strictly one ot the other, but merged in a poetic image.

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: Origins: Liverpool Judies
From: MAG
Date: 27 Aug 03 - 02:53 AM

And sailors being sailors, and referring to all women as judies whom they would just as soon see as sexually available, didn't make a clear distinction between women hauling lines and "flash" girls on the dock. I would think the use of "Flash judies" indicates and sub-group of judies.

MA who will be singing a lotta shanties at Tumbleweeds this weekend

Subject: RE: Origins: Liverpool Judies
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 27 Aug 03 - 09:38 AM

Steve, remember when you rest your case, not to leave it unattended as for security reasons, all unattended cases will be removed and destroyed.

RtS
(MUST get my medication adjusted)

Subject: RE: Origins: Liverpool Judies
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 27 Aug 03 - 11:28 AM

Roger, I expect your case, like mine, is a particularly sad one!