Tech: Editing mini-disc field recordings on PC

Subject: Tech: Editing mini-disc field recordings on PC
From: GUEST,AARK
Date: 25 Aug 03 - 05:35 PM

Help - I have been making mini disc field recordings recently and have started to get the best out of the machine and mic (tip for newcomers - using a low recording level is the secret - you can always boost it when copying to CD...). I have become interested in PC manipulation of the recordings as I have been told it is possible to do such things as remove unwanted background noise - people talking etc - by manipulating the waveform on the screen. This sounds too good to be true, do any catters have experience or suggestions as to which type of software to try to track down? Also, how do I get the MD signal into the PC? I dont want to put it onto cd first and my sound card seems not to have a digital input. The minidisc recorder is a Sony Net MD so I guess I can plug it into the USB port and do it that way. I've still got a lot to learn about computers so any tips would be much appreciated (even obvious ones!!).
Cheers folks.

Subject: RE: Tech: Editing mini-disc field recordings on PC
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 25 Aug 03 - 05:40 PM

You can't use the USB port to upload field recordings.. yet.. there are some dedicated people working to 'hack' that BS security feature on Sony's MD recorders...

You'll have to plug the headphone jack "Out" from the MD recorder to your "Line In" on your sound card... Then 'real time' record the tracks using whatever sound recording software you prefer (Cooledit for me)... That'll put the files on yer PC, and you can then tweak 'em as you see fit...

Subject: RE: Tech: Editing mini-disc field recordings on PC
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Aug 03 - 05:45 PM

as Clinton says...it ain't easy. MD is a very different format. All you can do right now is send the recording thru the sound card and thus turn them into .wav files.

If one needs to do easily editable field recordings, an MP3 recorder is one way...(though the sound is not as good as MD)...there are a couple devices that will do both MD & MP3.

Subject: RE: Tech: Editing mini-disc field recordings on PC
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 25 Aug 03 - 05:52 PM

MD is not a difficult format at all... One just needs to wrap ones head around the process once, and from there's it's easy-peasy-nice-and-sleezy!

Use Cooledit to record through the soundcard input, (agian, Line In, -NOT- the Mic input) and you can save them as easily workable MP3 files... (Or anyother format that blows cool air up yer kilt) From there, you can multi-track add stuff to them... do basicaly anything you'd expect a recording studio to be able to do.. (Provided you have all the plug-ins for CoolEdit... and they're available bootlegged all over the internet...)

MD is not hard... it's just not as "Plug-And-Play" as it seems a lot of this microsoft world would have it be...

Subject: RE: Tech: Editing mini-disc field recordings on PC
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Aug 03 - 06:27 PM

I suspect that AARK was hoping to keep the stuff in MD format, as the quality is a bit better, but reading between the lines of Clintons posts tells us that converting from one format to another loses some data. That 'may' not be terribly important to some, but might be to others. I mostly just want to capture stuff to learn and/or enjoy.

Yesterday, there was a local radio program I had forgotten about until it started, so I just set a good mic in front of my radio and caught the last hour of the program on MD. The quality was perfectly acceptable for my purposes.

My son has an MP3 recorder/player, so between us we can capture/play/edit etc. as much as most amateurs need.

A search of the WWW reveals dozens of software ways to record, capture, edit, convert...etc. music...(including streaming audio)...and it is easy to be overwhelmed by it all. ('bootlegged plug-ins' may be a bit deeper than some want to go, Clinton.. *grin*)

Subject: RE: Tech: Editing mini-disc field recordings on PC
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 25 Aug 03 - 06:30 PM

"converting from one format to another loses some data"

Ya... maybe... but not so that the human ear can tell the difference!

LOL

"'bootlegged plug-ins' may be a bit deeper than some want to go, Clinton.."

But besides porn, what else is the internet for eh?? hehehehe

Subject: RE: Tech: Editing mini-disc field recordings on PC
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 25 Aug 03 - 07:35 PM

AARK,

Good responses.

My $.02

1) As for data loss,
To get technical,

Two scenarios:
sound card without digital i/o -
ATRAC (digital format, proprietary MD format) to Analog signal to WAV file (digital format, standard PC sound file format.)

sound card with digital i/o -
ATRAC (digital) to WAV (digital)

Note that no matter what route you take you retain the ATRAC to WAV conversion.
It is my understanding that ATRAC is a "lossy" format (like MP3) but WAV isn't. So the conversion from the former to the latter should involve no loss.
The conversion from ATRAC to analog might change the sound you hear depending upon the algorithm, but it wouldn't necessarily be any sort of "loss".

Lots of people have opinions based upon theoretical considerations of formats and conversions, but the proof should be in the listening. I used analog tape for years until a friend purchased his first minidisc recorder. To hear his results was to be instantly converted.

2) As for "remove(ing) unwanted background noise",
Well, yes it is possible. But no amount of diddling with the WAV file will really make up for a bad MD recording. It is the old principle of garbage in garbage out. The MD will quite faithfully record exactly what you hear. The idea is to make sure you are hearing what you will want to hear when you do the recording.

3)My program of choice Sound Forge Studio. Wouldn't hesitate to recommend it.

Subject: RE: Tech: Editing mini-disc field recordings on PC
From: Amos
Date: 25 Aug 03 - 08:39 PM

MP3 is a lossy format compared to native minidisc format or to AIFF. But for moost purposes the lossiness doesn't bother most people. Once you have played the file into your sound recording software you have a file that cam be filtered six ways from sunday depending ont he program you're using to edit it. That means you can even edit the wave form, in some cases select a sample of unwanted noise and remove it throughout the file automatically, add room echo, bass or treble, etc., etc. Depenmds ont he program of choice.

If you're going to burn to a CD and you have enough room use the AIFF or WAV format as source files, not the MP3s you might want to produce for emailing, etc.

A

Subject: RE: Tech: Editing mini-disc field recordings on PC
From: Anglo
Date: 25 Aug 03 - 11:51 PM

Your average MD player (even above average as far as I can see) doesn't have a digital out. The only output seems to be via the headphone jack on most models.

Subject: RE: Tech: Editing mini-disc field recordings on PC
From:
Date: 26 Aug 03 - 02:16 AM

From what I can see.... The only Digital Outputs for MD format are on decks intended for home stereo systems. Assuming you have a Digital In (Optical, perhaps) on the sound card, you can do Digital to Digital with a PC. However, not enough of the SoundCards out in the hands of most people have the Digital In.

Note prices for a deck and associated soundcard gets somewhat pricey. At least here in Canada it is.

It would be nice to have both items, but I don't see it in my immediate future.

Subject: RE: Tech: Editing mini-disc field recordings on PC
From: GUEST,Spike
Date: 26 Aug 03 - 04:01 AM

My twopennyworth : Yes MD is a "lossy System (via ATRAK) but it is only important if you are rerecording back to MD, where it will apply the compression again, and more detail is lost.   Also the first statement about using low recording levels is not so good a theory, cos when you then "boost" the signal as its put, you raise the noise floor up as well ( crap in = crap outx2) You should always try to record the source at as near 0db as possible, and only if recording at 26 bit and above with a low noise level card can you allow a bigger"overhead" Sorry to get technical   cheers

Subject: RE: Tech: Editing mini-disc field recordings on PC
From: treewind
Date: 26 Aug 03 - 04:33 AM

Just a few thoughts...

• MD is not a specially "different format", especially if you are comparing with with MP3.
  
• Given the lower sound quality of a typical portable MP3 solid state recorder, better to use MD and a plain simple analog connection to your sound card. Not as good a a digital connection but still better than typical portable MP3 recorders.
  
• The fact that MD isn't 'plug and play' in the sense described above is purely Sony's fault for delibartely crippling it that way. A stupid decision, but USB isn't the only way to connect things to a computer...
  
• Hard disk space is cheap! Store your audio in WAV files, especially if you are going through repeated rounds of editing and saving to disk. Repeated loading from MP3 to edit, then saving as MP3 will cause generation loss. Maybe when you have a final, fully tweaked and edited product you can save space by archiving as MP3 (use a reasonably high bit rate) or Ogg.
  
• Audacity is a free and very useable sound editor for Windows and other platforms It has a noise removal function, but like all noise removal functions that work the same way it doesn't work very well on people talking - it's best on continuous background noise like tape hiss (brilliant for that) or a humming aircon unit.
  
• In theory you can edit the waveform directly but with 2646000 samples per minute (doubled for stereo) you don't really want to do too much of that. It's a good technique for snipping out individual clicks and bangs, but even then an amplitude envelope tool or simple mark-and-delete may do the job quicker.
  

Anahata

Subject: RE: Tech: Editing mini-disc field recordings on PC
From: Maryrrf
Date: 26 Aug 03 - 08:31 AM

Cool edit has a feature for removing pops, hiss and background noises but I tried it and it significantly affected the quality of the recording.

Subject: RE: Tech: Editing mini-disc field recordings on PC
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 26 Aug 03 - 09:14 AM

Maryrrf - You have to play with the settings in order to find the right threshold. All audio restoration systems sacrifice something in quality in order to perform their tasks, the trick is finding the right middle ground. I will say that I am less than impressed with Cool Edit's tolerances - it is not as flexible as other systems.

Syntrillium, the makers of Cool Edit, recently sold their product to Adobe.   Cool Edit is no longer being offered and a new Adobe audio product has replaced it. I have not tried it yet, but I would be curious if anyone has used it.

There are a few portable MD decks that offer digital OUTPUT, but most of these are high end models that are intended for professional use. They are being marketed to radio reporters.

Subject: RE: Tech: Editing mini-disc field recordings on PC
From:
Date: 26 Aug 03 - 10:04 AM

Two interesting products:

Xitel MD-I/O
UK Hardware MD Transfer Editor

Quick answer on how to audio upload to PC

MD to PC

Subject: RE: Tech: Editing mini-disc field recordings on PC
From: treewind
Date: 26 Aug 03 - 10:57 AM

That UK H/W MD transfer editor looks very nice but first you have to find and buy a MD data drive. These used to cost the earth and aren't made any more, as far as I know. I wonder how old that site is? Maybe you can pick up a used one on ebay...

The Xitel product gets round the bi-directional problem by digitizing the headphone output of the MD, so it's just like using a sound card except perhaps the A-D conversion is less noisy because it is outside of the PC box.

I notice the Terratec Aureon 5.1 "Fun" card will take S/PDIF optical (TosLink) input from a MD deck and it's a cheap sound card. I still think this is the best way to go. If you have a CD player with digital output you can also transfer your CDs to WAV files, with zero quality loss.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Tech: Editing mini-disc field recordings on PC
From:
Date: 26 Aug 03 - 01:41 PM

I'll have to re-read that UK blurb again. Had thought I was reading that it came with one.

Subject: Re: MD STudio: Transfer Editor
From:
Date: 26 Aug 03 - 01:54 PM

I just re-read the blurb, and it seems to indicate that the drive is NORMALLY SUPPLIED.

Subject: RE: Tech: Editing mini-disc field recordings on PC
From: GUEST,AARK
Date: 26 Aug 03 - 02:48 PM

Fantastic - thank you for all your informative and interesting replies. I shall study them in detail and hopefully come up with a plan!!

Thank you all once again - and please feel free to keep 'em coming!!

Subject: RE: Tech: Editing mini-disc field recordings on PC
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Aug 03 - 02:58 PM

"EDL MiniDisc data drive and SCSI interface (normally supplied)"

hmmm...could they be saying only that a SCSI interface is 'normally supplied' with a data drive?

Subject: RE: Tech: Editing mini-disc field recordings on PC
From: treewind
Date: 26 Aug 03 - 04:02 PM

Yes - The EDL MD data drive is listed as a Requirement

I'd interpret "normally supplied" as meaning they will supply the drive if they can find one to sell you. This page seems to suggest to me that they are having trouble getting any...

[pause for quick Google...]
Sony stopped making MD data drives in 1995 apparently. I subscribe to the MTMD list, and the author of that message generally seems to be knowledgable so I'd trust it.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Tech: Editing mini-disc field recordings on PC
From:
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 02:37 PM

I´ve seen recently this thread and would like to ask if anyone could tell me what kind of microphone could I use to make reasonable recordings using a MD(Sharp) ?
    thanks folks

Joe

Subject: RE: Tech: Editing mini-disc field recordings on PC
From:
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 03:22 PM

Welcome Joe.

I've been using a Sony model ECM-S5 for a number of years but it seems to have been recently discontinued.

There should be any number of suitable microphones. Look for a stereo condenser type, preferably with built-in battery. A friend of mine uses the Sound Pro types. Not sure which model. But have a look at Miniature Cardoid (Unidirectional) and Miniature Binaural (Unidirectional) types.

What kind of sound are you trying to record?

Basically Condenser types give great sensitivity and I leave my recording levels set mid-way. That way you don't have to boost the gain within the computer or in the amplifier. Boosting will always introduce noise. Try to avoid that.

Subject: RE: Tech: Editing mini-disc field recordings on PC
From:
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 03:24 PM

Oh yeah, I have seen Radio News people using SM58s hooked into the input jack through an adapter to 3.5mm plug. So, anything is possible.

Subject: RE: Tech: Editing mini-disc field recordings on PC
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 08:35 AM

I've now aquired a PC soundcard (Trust Sound Expert Digital < £20)which has digital input and output so I'm back looking for a MD player that has digital output. It wouldn't even matter if it didn't record because I can do that on my current portable. Someone did mention a desktop model which has this facility, but I can't find the reference to it. Any suggestions ?

Subject: RE: Tech: Editing mini-disc field recordings on PC
From: Amos
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 08:57 AM

Dave:

There may be such out there but I dunno for sure. The Sony comes with an optical fiber link but I have never figured that one out. You can use any recording and editing program and play analog from your MD into sound in, which is what I do, and then save the resultant captured file as WAV or AIFF or MP3 as suits.


A

Subject: RE: Tech: Editing mini-disc field recordings on PC
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 09:13 AM

Most MD units have an optical fibre digital link, but unfortunately it's usually input only. It's an MD with optical digital output that I'm after - especially as I'm thinking of getting a Yamaha MD4 4-track recorder. I currently have to tranfer to the PC at analogue level, but it would be so much better to do it digitally.

Subject: RE: Tech: Editing mini-disc field recordings on PC
From: Amos
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 09:55 AM

This site might help. It's http://www.homerecording.com/.


A

Subject: RE: Tech: Editing mini-disc field recordings on PC
From: GUEST,Amos
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 10:25 AM

These guys are certain that only analog outputs are available from minidisc.

This may be old information, though.

http://www.minidisco.com/new-to-md.html#mdcomp

Another source of information is Crutchfield's advisor which says the same...portables don't do digital out. He mentions some desktops which do, though.


A

Subject: RE: Tech: Editing mini-disc field recordings on PC
From: treewind
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 11:35 AM

Interesting - Richer Sounds list the Sony MDSJE 480 and Yamaha MDXE300 - the Sony has digital input ONLY - the Yamaha has both in and out.

I have a Sony MDSJE940 which is apparently no longer available new - it has coax and optical digital in and out. It seems that the choices are narrowing, in both features and models of MD deck these days.

Portable MDs never have digital outputs, except a very early Sony and possibly the Marantz PMD650 which was an expensive pro recorder.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Tech: Editing mini-disc field recordings on PC
From: treewind
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 11:43 AM

Amos - now I've followed your link I have another comment.

In my immediately previous post I'm talking about SPDIF - real time digital audio, which is what Dave Bryant also is referring to.

Amos' link is to a discussion about USB connections which is another type of digital link that lets you do rapid file transfers from PC to MD. It is true that the reverse transfer is not supported by most or all MD recorders, for no good technical reason - it's all to do with copyright paranoia.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Tech: Editing mini-disc field recordings on PC
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 05:37 PM

Cheers Anhata, Richer Sounds claim to still have some MDXE300s in stock at £170 - I'll give the a ring tomorrow.

Subject: RE: Tech: Editing mini-disc field recordings on PC
From: moocowpoo
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 05:57 PM

Has anyone mentioned Hi-MD? you can upload to a pc via USB, and some hi-md recorders have mic inputs as well. 45 hours of playback and you can store data as well.   I have recorded a lot of stuff, and put it on pc, using just a cable from md headphone output to pc in.   The sound quality does lose out a bit. You can compensate for that slightly and remove hissing etc but, as was mentioned earlier, you can't polish a turd.   As far a software goes, I've used pro-tools, logic, audacity, wave lab and soundforge..Mostly I just stay with soundforge, it's not as extensive in options as logi or pro-tools but it has enough for most of my uses and I find it relatively easy to use.
I'm off to look into Hi-MD
moo

Subject: RE: Tech: Editing mini-disc field recordings on PC
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 03:27 AM

I have a Hi-MD recorder that I haven't had the time to start exploring yet. All I've managed to do so far was miss more than half of a good performance because I hadn't figured out how to record at slow speed! From my brief scan of the documentation, it seems that you can upload the recordings to the PC, and do some editing, but then you can only put them back onto a MD, and can't access them through any other program. More stupid marketing stuff.   

Speaking of stupid marketing stuff, is there a way of converting a WAV file into MP3? Or do I have to buy some expensive program to do it?

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: Tech: Editing mini-disc field recordings on PC
From: treewind
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 03:39 AM

http://www.mp3-encoders.com/
http://lame.sourceforge.net/

Anahata