Playing by ear- advantage or disadvantage?

Subject: Playing by ear - - Advantage or disadvantage?
From:
Date: 27 Aug 98 - 06:01 PM

Only being able to play and compose music songs by ear, I have always felt a little second rate. I have however fairly recently come to the opinion that it is has been more of an advantage than a disadvantage. You could argue that the type of music that this site is designed for, being an orally transmitted form, it is less of a disadvantage than other forms, but I feel that it enables you to approach and play, all forms of music more freely. I would welcome your views on this subject.

Subject: RE: Playing by ear-advantageor disadvantage?
From: Chet W.
Date: 27 Aug 98 - 06:27 PM

Don't know your name, but I'll give my advice. Reading and writing music is of course essential if you're going to be playing classical music or if you want to be a session musician in a studio. It is also occasionally handy if there's a tune that you can't learn any other way. But my advice to young musicians is don't bother to learn if you don't have to. The reason being, if you play some sort of folk music or jazz, there are certain subtleties that cannot be notated. For example, if you play old-time music (or whatever it's being called now), you'll find that many people can't tell the difference between what you're doing and bluegrass or cajun (all fine kinds of music) but if you listen carefully with an increasingly experienced ear, you'll find that there are little differences in the rythms that make all the difference in the world. Often it's just a little hesitation or anticipation of one beat here and there, but it's of much importance to the sound of the music and it cannot be notated with even the tiniest notes or rests. As far as learning the tunes is concerned, that is something that gets easier and easier as you progress so that soon you'll have all but the fanciest tunes down after one or two rounds. I have had the experience a number of times, joining a jam group or dance band or some such, when somebody who has formal training brings a book and puts it on a music stand and plays directly from that. It ruins the sound (unless you've got enough people to drown him out) and is extremely irritating. An analogy I have used is that learning a distinctive style of music, such as old time, Celtic, etc, out of a book is like learning to type in a language that you don't know. The biggest and most important part of learning any music is to get it firmly in your head what it's supposed to sound like, and then when you get it, it will be right. It's not enough just to know where to put your fingers and approximately when. So if what I've described resembles where you want to go musically, don't buy books or take formal lessons. Buy records and play with other people as much as you can. You'll get there.

Good luck, Chet W.

Subject: RE: Playing by ear-advantageor disadvantage?
From: Stacy
Date: 27 Aug 98 - 06:48 PM

Hi ,

I agree with Chet in many ways. I am someone who came from a classical training background. I learned to read music, I learned music history and theory. When I first started to play by ear, I was terrified - frozen. It took some time to learn to depend on my own skills as opposed to depending on the piece of paper. That was, as Chet was saying a lot of repetition in hearing the music.

I have also learned to incorporate knowing theory and reading music to be an asset when I play music by ear. I can hear intervals, relative pitch. I can use that to my advantage when listening to what I want to learn.

To me, when I meet someone who has become adept at learning by ear I am envious. I think they are somehow "closer" to music than I am. I also think someone who can learn by ear has more freedom and leeway with the music.

This conversation reminds me of the lyrics to a Louis Prima and Keely Smith song 'The Lip'...

And when they ask me can I read I say
I read a little bit, but not enough to hurt me none.

Stacy

Subject: RE: Playing by ear-advantageor disadvantage?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 27 Aug 98 - 07:10 PM

And they asked Frank Profitt, the source for so many grand N.Carolina songs (including "Tom Dooley"), what he thought of Earl Scruggs' hot banjo pickin'. He said, "I'd like to be able to do it, and then not do it!"

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Playing by ear-advantageor disadvantage?
From: Roger Himler
Date: 27 Aug 98 - 07:11 PM

Dear Anonymous,

The answer of course, as in most of life, is both. As an avid non-reader, I am most familiar with those advantages and dis-advantages.

I think if your goal is to play primarily for your own pleasure, playing by ear is the way to go. It is an approach that allows you to address the song as a whole being and not just the sum of its parts. I suspect you can learn quicker that way, if you have an ear. If you are tone deaf, I think sight-reading is an advantage.

If you want to become the master of your instrument, you will want to learn to read music eventually. I say this, because as you learn to read, you needfully learn music theory, and that is essential to master an instrument. All of this stands aside if you are immensely musically talented. Does Doc Watson read music? I think not. And even if he was sighted, I suspect he would not have taken that course.

Learning to read music helps you to talk to others about the music. If you learned chords, but did not learn their names, it would be more difficult to communicate with others. If you learn their relationships, then you simplify communication even further.

Not reading music does not make you second rate. It is a limitation, but one with which you can live and truly enjoy your music. You can also grow by overcoming it, if you choose to grow in that direction.

Enjoy the music!!

Roger in Baltimore

Subject: RE: Playing by ear-advantageor disadvantage?
From: The Shambles
Date: 27 Aug 98 - 07:29 PM

Stacy. I liked the lines from the song, couldn't agree more with those sentiments. It made me think though, we do expect children to be able to talk before we expect them to read (and write). I think with music especially in England, we have expected our children to be able to read and write music before they can talk(play) it. The Victorian collectors transcibed our folk music for the piano, to be played politely in front rooms and we came to view any other form of music as not quite respectable. It was almost mandatory for the young ladies of the family to struggle with learning the piano and notation. An attitude responsible, I'm sure for turning some people off music for ever. Judging by the wonderful and free playing young musicians I see at sessions here, I think we must be doing it differently now, thank goodness. The point is that music exists, for a moment, in the air, not on the page. Notation is a way of recording the notes played and not the music itself. I would agree with Chet, learn the music first.

Subject: RE: Playing by ear-advantageor disadvantage?
From: Susan-Marie
Date: 27 Aug 98 - 07:41 PM

As a non-reader, I find myself limited when I try to communicate with musicians who know theory and correct terminology. I've really enjoyed the "Music 101" threads we've had here over recent months.

That said, I do think learning by ear first is the way to go. Music needs to be absorbed and consumed before it is analyzed, or it's all just dots on a staff....

Subject: RE: Playing by ear-advantageor disadvantage?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 27 Aug 98 - 07:55 PM

I pretty much agree, Chet. I've always been an ear musician---and a musical loner. Never did try to exactly copy anybody. Just developed my own ways of doing the styles I respected most. Restricted by my own limitations, I created my own cliches; when you put enough of those together over the years, you develop a "STYLE" of your own as a byproduct. A little John Hurt--a little Merle Travis--a little Pete--a little Grandpa Jones--a little Bob Gibson--a ton of myself and my own stubbornness--and many, many other good people I met on those roads less traveled. If I had played "with" others more, I might've been forced to learn more music---even learn to read music. But doing it with others wasn't my forte--I preferred one person and their intrument to a band any day---a small combo to a big band. And being a solo was much easier than practicing with others; that's sad to some extent, but true, nonetheless. And nobody ever quit my group and had to be replaced! Playing by ear was sometimes limiting, but what I put out there for others to hear was the music I loved most--the story songs--not what other musicians wanted me to play.
My recordings were always just me and my instruments---no overdubbing---no other voices (except once; my friend Cindy Mangsen)
Once, as I've said in another thread, I did try to form a group one time. Elvis Presley, Patti Page, Rosemary Clooney, and me. Yep, we were gonns call ourselves "Presley, Page, Rosemary and Thieme"

Art

Subject: RE: Playing by ear-advantageor disadvantage?
From: BSeed
Date: 27 Aug 98 - 08:37 PM

Art, with that pun you have certainly outdone yourself. And taught me how to pronounce your name (I'd wondered: "Theme? Thighm?" (Thow, thumb) --seed

Subject: RE: Playing by ear-advantageor disadvantage?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 27 Aug 98 - 10:21 PM

Seed--

It is like a "Thieme song"----"theme".That's how we pronounce it. Not time = thyme. But I like the pun so much I couldn't NOT use it just 'cause my name is pronounjced differently.

Art

Subject: RE: Playing by ear-advantageor disadvantage?
From: harpgirl
Date: 27 Aug 98 - 10:44 PM

Having learned first "by ear" to play and only recently learning to read music I found that learning to read allowed me to learn alot of new stuff fast such as Irish tunes and since I already had lots of idosyncratic approaches to autoharp and guitar, I could incorporate my picking styles to jigs, reels, polkas, and the like. Didn't John Hartford say "style is based on limitation." The grass is sometimes greener but you still have to mow it, I always say...I agree with Art, though. Playing alone means you never have to say your sorry!! to your bandmates...But when I play in DoneyGals, my schooled partner does teach me alot!!! harpgirl

Subject: RE: Playing by ear-advantage or disadvantage?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Aug 98 - 02:49 AM

With 16 years of Catholic education, I had a lot of music callses - but I never learned to read music or to play an instrument. I've always sung, but learned everything by ear. The music training helped me understand it, though.
Lately, though, I've found a new technique for learning music - the opposite sex. I've been dating a woman who plays every instrument known to humankind. She can't play them all at once, however, so I'm expected to make a contribution. So, she and another woman play the violin or piano or accordion or whatever, and I play along on the guitar or harmonica. I find I half-read and half play by ear. Somehow, it works. It seems to me that doing it by ear works a little better for me, though. I tend to get behind if I read the music. My friend and the other woman are patient and supportive, and I find I'm learning very quickly - a lot quicker than I learned from the nuns.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Playing by ear-advantageor disadvantage?
From: Bo
Date: 28 Aug 98 - 04:41 AM

The more you do the more you can do.

If learning by ear fulfills you, you dont need more, but every skill you have is another club in your golfbag.

Bo

Who is trying to learn to sight read and computer system administrate at the same time.

( Guess which is more fun :))

Subject: RE: Playing by ear-advantageor disadvantage?
From: Allan C.
Date: 28 Aug 98 - 08:54 AM

I was taught to play by ear. My teacher would ask me to bring a recording of a song I wanted to learn and then would show me how to hear the bass line, chord changes, and melody line and apply them to my guitar. Many years later in order to fulfill curriculum requirements, I found myself in a music theory class. I was able to astound my instructor by being able (by ear) to identify by name most of the chords he played on the piano. Mostly, though, I was kept busy learning to write music by 17th and 18th century rules. Strangely, I have never since been called upon to use those forms! Despite all of the theory, I never really learned how to apply what I had learned to any instrument in any meaningful way. I will admit that in time, certain broad concepts from that class began to sink in. So I guess "It didn't hurt me none".

If you hold a gun on me, I can sit at a piano and painstakingly plink out a melody from a piece of sheet music. There are times when I envy those who can both read and apply written music to an instrument. From time to time I run across a book full of interesting-looking songs. But unless I can get someone to play them for me, I have little idea of how they should sound.

On the other hand, I love hearing songs performed by others and trying to figure out how to play what I hear. It feels like what I think of when using the words "folk music". And, by the way, I always thought it should be the "aural" tradition rather than "oral"!

I have to agree with Art, I like being a solo act. At least solo with regard to instrument. I always found it troublesome, at best, to try to teach another player the same sense of rythm and timing. However, I have always enjoyed singing with a partner. Somehow sharing vocal nuances seems easier - don't understand why.

Subject: RE: Playing by ear-advantageor disadvantage?
From: The Shambles
Date: 28 Aug 98 - 10:27 AM

Aural / oral. lets call the whole thing off!

Subject: RE: Playing by ear-advantageor disadvantage?
From:
Date: 28 Aug 98 - 11:07 AM

I play by ear --however sometimes it get caught in the strings --Art Can you help me?

Subject: RE: Playing by ear-advantageor disadvantage?
From: lingolucky
Date: 28 Aug 98 - 12:15 PM

For me, there's no way to go but by ear. Still I have to hear a piece repeatedly before I have it, and I certainly need thr chord sequence if ther are more than three chords. I think you need a teacher, but not sight read- ing. Andthe bass runs are very important. Lane Goldsmith

Subject: RE: Playing by ear-advantageor disadvantage?
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 28 Aug 98 - 12:30 PM

I learned how to read music as a 5-year-old on the piano. Always felt like those people who could play without sheet music were the REAL musicians. A few decades later, I learned to play guitar and fiddle by ear. It's much more fun this way, and easier (for me). People who do one are typically intimidated by the other. I took 1 year of classical violin lessons, and my teacher (who plays with the New Haven Symphony) was amazed at my ability to play by ear. She was completely unnerved at a jam I dragged her to, when called on to take a break. And I was amazed at her ability to take a piece of music almost completely black with notes and swim through it with feeling and interpretation.

Being able to read music is a tremendous advantage. I can buy songbooks and find wonderful tunes in them that I would never know otherwise. I can pick up classical music and thoroughly enjoy myself on the fiddle/violin. I can read how the great composers intended their pieces to be played. And when I write a song, I can put the music onto my MusicTime software and print it down.

Being able to play by ear is a tremendous advantage. I can walk up to a group of strangers playing something I've never heard before and join in a jam. I can play in the dark. I can create music more spontaneously with minimum setup.

Anyway you can do it is fine, and any limits you set on yourself are your own. I recommend teaching children (and adults!) to do both.

Subject: RE: Playing by ear-advantageor disadvantage?
From: Ferrara
Date: 28 Aug 98 - 12:43 PM

Whether formal music background is an advantage or disadvantage is up to you. I know a fellow who has all kinds of formal training,years of both orchestral and choral work, etc. You should hear him jam in a folk or bluegrass setting, backing up a singer, or improvising gorgeous harmonies on his viola! - Wonderful. The training certainly hasn't hurt him any. You would never expect a viola to fit so well in a folk environment.

For myself, I took four years of piano when I was a kid, then the usual "music" classes in school and a couple years playing violin in the orchestra. It didn't cure any of my bad habits, it took singing with other folkies to do that. But there are times when reading notes, doing a bit of sight reading, or knowing a bit of theory is a great help.

Once in a great while, when I can't figure out or remember a melody, I transcribe it in standard musical notation using a guitar or piano to find the notes. Lots of effort, but it works. And somehow having the mental picture of the notes helps me remember the parts I had difficulty with.

Subject: RE: Playing by ear-advantageor disadvantage?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 28 Aug 98 - 05:57 PM

"Better to get caught in the strings than in the zipper!"----the guy in ___ABOUT MARY___

Subject: RE: Playing by ear-advantageor disadvantage?
From: Jenny
Date: 28 Aug 98 - 09:08 PM

I've always been so envious of the person who could hear a tune once and sit down at the piano and play it. I read music, but have learned most of my repertoire just in hearing a song I liked and working out the chords on my guitar. I don't really think there's much difference in how you learn something as long as it means something. Art (loved the pun ... do you remember "Mitch, Skitch, and the Bitch?") ... I agree with you about being a "loner." I've never had much luck with groups because I never sing a song the same way twice. And, I've never much liked groups the size of New Christy Minstrals or Serendipity Singers, preferring trios or quartets. jenny

Subject: RE: Playing by ear-advantageor disadvantage?
From: Dave T
Date: 28 Aug 98 - 09:29 PM

I've always preferred learning songs by ear, even though I can read music (albeit painfully). However, I think a lot of that's due to the types of songs I prefer to play (i.e. solo blues, folk, bluegrass). I agree with Jenny's point that it it doesn't matter how you learn, as long as it means something. All that being said, I'd certainly encourage any musician to learn how to read music: there's just so much music out there, and you can't get all of it on tape, CD or vinyl. Being able to read music is just another tool and another way to expand one's repertoire and horizons.

Subject: RE: Playing by ear-advantageor disadvantage?
From: The Shambles
Date: 29 Aug 98 - 07:52 AM

I would be interested to here from more people who are directly involved with teaching music to young people today, to see the direction we are going. I one thing that prompted this thread was the number of people know who' s children have been taught to play instuments like the flute, clarinet, violin, formally at school and can play their pieces well but put their instuments away and never play them or get involved in any other musical activity. I remember when I was about 18, having been messing about on the guitar for a few years, I met an old school friend who in the same period had studied classical guitar Not suprisingly I was very impressed with his playing but he was impressed with mine. He played his pieces well but couldn't jam along or just adapt sections of his pieces or his techniques, and he really wanted to badly. I just put the little bits of technique that I had picked up together and made up pieces/songs with them. I couldn't understand why with his far superior technique, he just couldn't do the same. It would be interesting to know what direction he took or if indeed he is still playing, so Grahame Kippel if you are out there!

Subject: RE: Playing by ear-advantageor disadvantage?
From: Animaterra
Date: 29 Aug 98 - 09:09 AM

Shambles, I've been fascinated by this thread because as an elementary music teacher and a director of a women's chorus I'm constantly in the thick of the debates around reading music or just learning to play it ("ear before eye" or vice versa). My grownups have taught me a lot about what a terrible job music education in the schools has done over the last few generations, together with the professionalization of music via the media. Anyway, these days I always immerse the kids in discovering their "inner ear" as I call it, having them sing, move, play, etc. and discover their capabilities before starting them on reading. When we do begin reading, I use parts of 2 popular methods of teaching (Orff and Kodaly) which ease them into reading almost without knowing it. The goal is that by the end of grade 5 they can read a scale, understand a few chords (like how C, F &G go together), know about bass and treble clef, and can sing in 2 part harmony and play 3 & 4 part polyrhythms. I don't have time to teach them all guitar or another accompanying instrument but I try to get them feeling that they were born musical. I also have to reprogram their parents. I'm SICK of hearing, "Oh, none of us are musical. We can't sing a note!" If you believe that, it's likely to become true. In my women's chorus, half the time is spent dealing with that old baggage. We read no notes at all in rehearsal; I teach by rote and arrange almost all the music myself; those who beg me can purchase the sheet music but may not bring it to rehearsal. We sing mostly unaccompanied, and with them my goal is to get them singing and listening. There are now over 6 women's choruses in northern New England, most of them with over 100 members. Mine is limited to 50 due to lack of rehearsal space and I have a waiting list that's growing all the time. There's such a desire to sing in the general population; to refer to the Courage threads, maybe this can be the beginning. I have some middle schoolers in my chorus; I hope someday to not have to teach full time and then I plan to have kids and teen choruses as well. Sorry to go on and on, but this whole issue is a biggie. Get the people making music, and then add literacy for those who can. But make the music part of their lives by any means possible!!!

Subject: RE: Playing by ear-advantageor disadvantage?
From: John in Brisbane
Date: 30 Aug 98 - 08:55 PM

I guess I'll just have to buck the trend of this thread so far. I get my greatest enjoyment from playing with other muso's. There are a whole heap of factors which come into play here, but the ones which spring to mind are:

- It's marvellous to learn from and teach other players. - You can play instruments that are not ideal solo vehicles. - Your fellow team members can become great friends. - There's always a group to play at your wake.

Years ago I used a Pete Seeger book to learn how to play 5 string banjo. There's an exchange recorded in this book which goes something like: Researcher "And do you read music?" Old-timer "Why heck,there aint no notes on a banjo you just play it."

Regards John

Subject: RE: Playing by ear-advantageor disadvantage?
From: Kiwi
Date: 30 Aug 98 - 09:41 PM

I'd say to go with whatever works for you. I use a mixture of ear and reading music. I got started reading music early, taking piano lessons mixed with theory for six years as a youngling. For the instruments that I play (flute, sax, piano, a bit of whistle) I rely a lot on reading the music because that's how it was taught to me. However, especially with the flute and piano, I do try to learn stuff by ear, because there's a lot of music that I only have in recorded form.

Vocally, I use ear and eye more in balance. If I'm singing a piece that I've seen the music to, I visualize the music in my head because it helps me to remember. But otherwise, I learn vocal music best by seeing the lyrics (so I can visualize those to remember them more easily) but hearing the music.

By the way, just curious. How many other people out there shamelessly improvise vocal harmonies at the drop of a hat? I do it constantly with whatever music I happen to be listening to at the time, and sometimes I can even do it off the cuff with music I've never heard before. It's great for developing the ear, and oddly enough, knowledge of music theory does come into play a lot, at least for me. I.. I'm not sure how to explain. I visualize the interval, or the shape of the interval. Knowing chord structures and basic harmonic patterns enables me to pick out where to place myself in the chord.

Slán,

Kiwi

Subject: RE: Playing by ear-advantageor disadvantage?
From: gargoyle
Date: 31 Aug 98 - 01:26 AM

Play classical music - on classical instruments (piano & organ) using the sheet music of the classical masters.

Play folk music - on folk instruments (guitar, banjo, fiddle, dulcimer, autoharp) by ear.

Sometimes the two converge...but most importantly...

Stretch your ability and HAVE FUN

If you are bored....move on to a new technique,song or instrument.

Subject: RE: Playing by ear-advantageor disadvantage?
From: Barbara
Date: 31 Aug 98 - 02:23 AM

Me, Kiwi, and I use a similar method to yours when singing and/or playing. In improvising harmony I use my 50 odd years of intuition and, more recently some music theory, like when to use the third note of the chord, and when to use the fifth. Taking a few lessons in stand up bass taught me how to build walk-ups (and downs).
Our martinet of a choir director taught us all in high school to learn to identify intervals, and while he brought a lot of terror into my life at the time, the gift for hearing an interval and knowing where it falls in the scale has long outlasted the way he treated us.
my experience with him did shift me from classical choral entirely into folk, but it being the sixties had a lot to do with that too.
My mother says I would have been normal if I hadn't gone to college in the sixties.
Blessings,
Barbara

Subject: RE: Playing by ear-advantageor disadvantage?
From: The Shambles
Date: 31 Aug 98 - 03:49 PM

Animaterra. I wish you had been teaching me music at school. The comment you make about "letting them feel that they were born musical" was important. It would be my view, from limited experience I accept, that we are indeed all born musical. Do you share that view or have you come across chilldren that are not?

Subject: RE: Playing by ear-advantageor disadvantage?
From: Jerry Bryant
Date: 31 Aug 98 - 05:18 PM

Just having returned from a week as a staff member at a folk music camp in Maine, this is timely. Anne Dodson and I taught "Folk Chorus" for the week, and we used a mixture of teaching songs by ear and handing out written music. The participants were of varying abilities: some classically trained, many who could read, and some who didn't know a B flat from an A sharp.

Everyone learned each piece equally well, regardless of the method. However, it took a lot less time to teach a song with the notes written down. Even those who weren't readers of music could more quickly get a sense of where the musical lines were going with the score in front of them.

Our main goals were to help people learn to sing harmonies by ear AND have fun singing choral pieces. For the latter, a score made things go much quicker. For the former, we used only ears and voices.

For me as a performer, having both skills is invaluable. I can jam and learn tunes with my ears, and I can bring deserving songs that have never been recorded into the light of day via my eyes: it's a wonderful feeling to find an old forgotten piece of music and breathe life into it by learning to play it.

Learn to do both: it's more fun!

JB

Subject: RE: Playing by ear-advantageor disadvantage?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 31 Aug 98 - 06:46 PM

When I was young, back in the '40s, I actually had a teacher of a school chorus tell me and others to "just move your lips; don't you dare sing. You'll NEVER be able to carry a tune." Now, I know I've only got about an 8 note range to this day, but somehow, I managed to make a living for over 3 decades by singing and being an ear musician.I developed a system that I've never, ever mentioned anywhere. I'd generally hit a note on the guitar or banjo or jew's harp A FRACTION OF A SCOND BEFORE I'D ACTUALLY SING IT! It was like I was following a personal pitch pipe and probably the reason I liked being a solo---control of the WHOLE SITUATION! And only recently have I been able to think I had a halfway decent voice. Those teachers and parents who did and said the completely wrong things were truly hard to get out of my head. BUT, it did make me stubborn enough to make it work. Been pissed off at authority figures ever since! That stood me in good stead in the '60s. Not too helpful in the '90s though, so I chased those stupid dead folks out o' my head!

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Playing by ear-advantageor disadvantage?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 31 Aug 98 - 11:46 PM

I've only been able to sing by ear, singing out of my ears or eyes always gave me a headache, & made me look as if I were crying. Up until the past couple years like others here I only sang solo. Then I started teaming up with a few others, two sing it alls, they talked a different language, but it was amazing to see the above Jerry pull harmonies off a page where no harmonies were written & the not here Neil see & hear where Jerry was leading to, in his head & try to tell me where to go before one bar had even been sung. All the while I'm going through my trial & error routine, it worked but it was then I realized that having both capabilities & not just one can make a world of difference. Reading the music plus knowing the theory so that the two work for you hand & hand removes limitations that only enhances the enjoyment of singing with others. Good night. Barry

Subject: RE: Playing by ear-advantageor disadvantage?
From: Animaterra
Date: 01 Sep 98 - 04:42 PM

I actually thank years of singing in the junior (and senior) choirs of Episcopal churches for my ability to harmonize at the drop of a hat. But not everyone is exposed to music with rich harmony- most of today's kids, for insttance, tho there are some "a cappella" groups who are bringing harmony back. No, Shambles, I haven't yet met a kid who couldn't make some kind of music, some how! I've met plenty grownups with Art Thieme's experience (stand in the back row and mouth the words). I've met two people, both in the past year, who couldn't hold a tune in a group with strong singers on either side. Most people can find their voice, tho', given enough exposure to the good stuff and some confidence! I can read and can learn quickly by ear; I'm glad I have both. I don't teach my kids to depend on it, though.

Subject: RE: Playing by ear-advantageor disadvantage?
From: steve t
Date: 01 Sep 98 - 10:41 PM

Disadvantage? Certain steps in becoming a good musician are more easily done when playing by ear, some when consulting books. What you choose depends on you: what keeps you satisfied while you are learning? It doesn't matter if one method is more efficient if it bores you to tears. It doesn't matter if one method is less efficient if it keeps you happy while you keep at it.

Pick away at difficulties with your ear, with advice, and with books. If your ear and advice always get you through, good for you. You're in good company.

Subject: RE: Playing by ear-advantageor disadvantage?
From: steve t
Date: 01 Sep 98 - 10:48 PM

One little note on learning by ear: Sing Out! published a set of 35 tapes to go along with their 1200 song collection: Rise Up Singing. In most of the tapes, the singer is concentrating on hitting the notes, rather than expressing emotion. Zowie! It makes some beautiful songs into utter dreck!

Similarly, the midi tunes in the DT are emotionless (though I convert them into emotion-rich voices as I listen, don't you?)

I guess all I'm saying is that learning by ear isn't foolproof. Learning by listening to great interpretations of the songs -- that's an entirely different matter.

Subject: RE: Playing by ear-advantageor disadvantage?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 01 Sep 98 - 11:46 PM

Reading music is a great way to become exposed to songs that you don't get a chance to hear. Sure, style and interpretation come from listening. But making a virtue of musical illiteracy is like saying that an actor shouldn't learn to read. Use anything that helps!

Subject: RE: Playing by ear-advantageor disadvantage?
From: Kiwi
Date: 02 Sep 98 - 02:17 AM

Barbara - I never really got formal training in hearing and identifying intervals until the last two or so years, when I joined my high school choir and took a music history/theory course. Six years of piano gave me knowledge of intervals and an ability to pick out the third and the fifth above a given note.. but it wasn't until the last year or so that I have consciously thought about the intervals I was aiming for when improvising harmonies, or been able to identify intervals just by sound.

But in fairness I would have to say that the music theory course leaped me forward a lot in terms of sophistication of harmonies. Before, I usually echoed the melody a third above or fourth below. Now I'm able to experiment with even a bit of counter-melody if I know a piece well enough to anticipate.

Slán, Kiwi, who is probably rather incoherent, given that it's nearly 2:30 in the A.M. where she is now, and she's running on an adrenaline high from having just finished a mix tape for someone. Wooga!

Subject: RE: Playing by ear-advantageor disadvantage?
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Jun 00 - 07:09 PM

I don't suppose there is anything to add to this subject, is there?

It would be nice to read some new thoughts.....

Subject: RE: Playing by ear-advantageor disadvantage?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 15 Jun 00 - 08:54 PM

An old banjo player was asked if he could read mustic. He said:

"Not enough to hurt my playing."

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Playing by ear-advantageor disadvantage?
From: Psaltry Psue
Date: 15 Jun 00 - 10:04 PM

I'm not to sure how new my thoughts on this subject are but, I wish I could play by ear. I can read music but I feel trapped. If I don't have the notes on a piece of paper I sit silent while every one else is playing. I'm working hard at training my ear so that I too can "play by ear"

Subject: RE: Playing by ear-advantageor disadvantage?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 15 Jun 00 - 11:08 PM

As has been said several times earlier in this thread (so that I don't see why it was felt necessary to revive it), one should ideally aim to be able to do both.  Being able to play only from written notation is like being unable to speak without a text to read from; being able only to play by ear is as limiting as having to learn by heart, from somebody else's recitation, the contents of each new daily paper.  I'm an ear-player, and quite good at it, but I wish I'd been taught properly when I was in a position to learn, relatively painlessly, how to be musically "literate". It would save a lot of time.

Malcolm

Subject: RE: Playing by ear-advantageor disadvantage?
From: Escamillo
Date: 16 Jun 00 - 12:15 AM

Some time ago I shared with many of you my experience of an admission audition for the choral association I am now in. It was pretty tough and a perfect music reading was absolutely required (the group sings always at our main opera theatre, with national and foreign first-level orchestras and directors). After a dozen rehearsals, guess what is the happiest moment for the conductor ? When we all hide out the music sheets and sing by ear ! BUT: to reach that moment, he strictly selects people who can read perfectly.
A contradiction ? Although different styles and branches of music may not require a similar training, this could be a good example of how this ability can widen our horizons and drive us more easily to the pleasure of making music.
Un abrazo - Andrés

Subject: RE: Playing by ear-advantageor disadvantage?
From: bob jr
Date: 16 Jun 00 - 01:00 AM

well as a musician most of my life i have a mixed one for you that maybe will only confuse things for ya! i started out playing for many years by ear it has its advantages in that you forge your own style from the getgo. but lots of players who can read have thier own style so its not mutually exclusive . i found after playing for years and developing to a certain extent the desire to learn a bit (only a wee bit ) of hardcore theory and yes site reading. you know what? it helps,helps a great deal ,you can sit in with anyone and communicate clearly to well trained musicians even if you know just a little theory and a little about scoring charts or just how to read em!lots of great players have gone thier whole lives by not being able to read or write music but i recommend it as another point in your development as a player.you will find that you know lots more than you think ,theory and reading lines follows all the same basic principles you already apply to your instrument! simon

Subject: RE: Playing by ear-advantageor disadvantage?
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 16 Jun 00 - 08:48 AM

One thing we hear about over and over is the "reading" musician who can't improvise or learn by ear. That suggests a shortcoming in that person's musical education, rather than a necessary pitfall of learning by reading. A music teacher who only teaches the student to read, without also developing his/her ear, is doing the student a disservice.

I read, and I play by ear, and I'm happy that I can do both. They are not mutually exclusive; nobody should feel like they have to choose one or the other. But you must train your ears, no matter what else you do. You can become an excellent musician without reading a note; there are plenty of examples out there. But I don't believe you can become a good musican without developing your ear.

Subject: RE: Playing by ear-advantageor disadvantage?
From: Grab
Date: 16 Jun 00 - 09:02 AM

Playing by ear kind of accumulates on you, anyway. I just found myself playing something the other day, but I couldn't remember where it came from, and the day after I couldn't remember the tune. It just came back today, so I wrote it down, and realised that it's a tune a couple of ppl have played at the local folk club. Looks like it just kind of seeped into my consciousness without realising it! Anyone else find themselves picking things up "by accident"?

Grab.

Subject: RE: Playing by ear-advantageor disadvantage?
From: Marion
Date: 16 Jun 00 - 09:43 AM

Of course it's best to be able to do both, but I would vote that the ability to play by ear is the more important skill.

In a thread about the difference between a "musician" and "somebody who plays music", somebody said something that made an impression on me: that there is a difference between being able to play tunes on your instrument, and being able to play your instrument.

In the first case, being able to play a tune means knowing the sequence of actions that you have to do to get the tune out of your instrument - and sheet music is essentially a set of directions telling you what to do with your fingers (or whatever).

On the other hand, you know how to play your instrument when it becomes like a second voice to you. When you speak, you don't have to think about the tongue movements that are necessary to produce the different letters, or have them written down for you. When you sing along with others, it's not work to sing at the same pitch (unless you're tone deaf), it comes naturally. That's what I would love to be able to do with my fiddle - be able to reach for a note just as automatically with my fiddle as I do with my voice.

There is a lovely descant to the hymn "What A Friend We Have in Jesus" that I know by memory, but my voice isn't high enough to sing it well. We were playing it in church recently and someone suggested I figure out and play that descant on the violin, which I did, and it was a little revelation for me. Although I had to figure the descant out by myself through trial and error rather than spontaneously with the organist, I was letting my instrument be my voice, and it was a wonderful feeling.

My first instrument was classical piano, and I've always been very sheet-oriented: I can pick out melodies by ear, but only through a tedious process of trial and error, not on the spot. I know I should work more at developing my ear, but when I want a new tune it's usually so much easier to just find some sheet for it...

And I've also found that strictly literate and strictly aural people are intimidated by each other - it's humourous when my friends with great ears are just as much in awe of my literacy as I am of their jamming/improvising abilities.

And of those who know one method and want to learn the other, I think that the readers trying to learn ear playing have a bit of an advantage over people going the other way, because we can be motivated by our love of specific tunes: if I can't find sheet music for a tune I love, then I'm forced to learn it by ear. But an ear player can't be in love with a tune they've never heard, so they would never have the same feeling that "I MUST learn this one, and the only way I can do it is to read it."

Good discussion,

Marion

Subject: RE: Playing by ear-advantageor disadvantage?
From: Kim C
Date: 16 Jun 00 - 10:07 AM

I started out as a child playing hymns by ear on a friend's piano. Several years later I began lessons and proceeded to study classical piano for about 12 years, all the while still learning my favorite pop tunes by ear. But now I had a name for the chords. I also found that sheet music was very often transcribed incorrectly, or incompletely. If I ever bought any, it was for the words and not the music. To this day I trust my ear, for it rarely ever fails me, and my years of study serve as a good backup.

When I started the fiddle two years ago, I was really glad for all that musical education I had. It meant I didn't have to start at ground zero, although there were elements I had forgotten that had to be refreshed. And straightaway I could have an intelligent conversation with my teacher. I have learned fiddle music from sheet music and by ear..... if I learn something from sheet music I inevitably change it up to where it matches what I'm hearing in my head.

It's true that sheet music cannot always adequately notate what's going on in the piece..... but the framework is there and can certainly be helpful.

Mister, on the other hand, is strictly an ear- player and this has caused discord (no pun intended) between us on different occasions. He does know different keys, and what to call the chords in those keys. This is easy when we're dealing with songs that have words, but trickier when it's just a tune. He can read a chart, though, so sometimes we go that route.

I think a combination of both works out pretty well. It all depends on what it is you want to do.

Subject: RE: Playing by ear-advantageor disadvantage?
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 16 Jun 00 - 01:57 PM

Learning tunes by ear is a great advantage
So is reading music
They each have their own problems
I read music and that makes me lazy, I should be able to memorise the tune but I don't bother as I have hard copy to read off.
People who play by ear have to work harder at memorising the tune and this makes their playing more fluid as they are not reading every note
The problem with playing by ear is that you have to hear it played before you learn it
I can learn a piece from written music on my own anywhere I don't have to have someone play it first
I am of to Galway now where I will no doubt here lots of great music, most of the tunes won't have a name and so I wish I could play by ear!

Roger

Subject: RE: Playing by ear-advantageor disadvantage?
From: bob jr
Date: 16 Jun 00 - 04:29 PM

i picked up something by accident once but i was wise enough to put it back down again

Subject: RE: Playing by ear-advantageor disadvantage?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 00 - 11:27 PM

I play by ear. I can read music, but I can't play by sight. It does come in handy, though, to be able to pick out the notes separately in a difficult and fast melodic passage. I read them to know what I should be playing, then usually memorize the part so I don't have to sight read.

My experience -- a lot of sight readers have difficulty improvising. If it's not written out in front of them, they don't know what to play.