Pedantry II

Subject: Pedantry II
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 29 Aug 98 - 10:21 PM

Now that we've settled the apostrophes, can I vent some
spleen about the gratuitous final e on anything that
seems to be related to folk and is older than Bob Dylan?

I speak of Aires and Childe ballads, in particular.
Enough, already.

Subject: RE: Pedantry II
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Aug 98 - 10:45 PM

Are you sure the name isn't "Greenhause," Dick???
Maybe Greenhaeuser????
I have "e" in both first and last names, myself, and I rather like it. I guess I can see how two in the last name might be plenty for you, though.
-Jo Offr-

Subject: RE: Pedantry II
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Aug 98 - 06:17 AM

ya mean like "Ye Olde Folke Songe Liste"?

(At the Getaway, we need to have a workshoppe on this!)

e-gad...e-nuff

Subject: RE: Pedantry II
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 30 Aug 98 - 10:19 AM

Joe- At least our "e"s (how about that to avoid an apostrophe) aren't terminal. Maybe we're not old enough.

Subject: RE: Pedantry II
From: Art Thiem
Date: 30 Aug 98 - 03:02 PM

Dick, Your point is well presented; and well taken!

Art Thiem

Subject: RE: Pedantry II
From: Jerry Friedman
Date: 30 Aug 98 - 03:05 PM

However, e's are sometimes usefulle. Thank you, BSeed and responders to his thread, for abbreviating "microphone" as "mike", not as the misleading "mic".

Subject: RE: Pedantry II
From: Barbara
Date: 30 Aug 98 - 03:09 PM

It all depends on whether you want to get caught with your 'e' dangling...

Subject: RE: Pedantry II
From: Roger Himler
Date: 30 Aug 98 - 03:09 PM

We are lucky no one is looking for the location of an open mice.

Roger in Baltimore

Subject: RE: Pedantry II
From: Bruc O.
Date: 30 Aug 98 - 03:16 PM

Amen.

The superfulous e at the end of words had disappeared in print by 1600, but compilers of MSS used them to about 1660. Also the in the common script, called secretary hand, e and o were so similar that sometimes it was impossible to tell the difference. Shoo that one sees fairly often in transcriptions from old MSS is actually shee (if context tells you it isn't shoe).

'Ye' still puzzles me. The y was originally the old English thorn, the script of which was rather like a p, (pronounced th) but evolved to look rather like a y, and y with superscript e was then became 'the'. But when did 'ye' start being used for 'you'?

Subject: RE: Pedantry II
From: Jerry Friedman
Date: 30 Aug 98 - 03:50 PM

I think the question is when "you" started being used for "ye". Originally, "ye" was the subjective form and "you" the objective form. That's the usage in the King James Version: "Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 18:3) According to Merriam-Webster on line, the two words were separate back in Anglo-Saxon. So when did "you" take over both slots?

By the way, I think your spellchecker's bruc.

(Yes, I figured you misspelled your name on purpose.)

Subject: RE: Pedantry II
From: BSeed
Date: 31 Aug 98 - 04:06 PM

Jerry, Childe is someone's name. The e stays. --seed

Subject: RE: Pedantry II
From: Bill in Alabama
Date: 31 Aug 98 - 04:30 PM

The fellow who collected all the English & Scottish Popular Ballads was named Francis James Child (no final e). CHILDE, as in Childe Harold and Childe Roland, is not a name but a kind of honorific signifying a young person of noble birth.

Subject: RE: Pedantry II
From: Jon W.
Date: 31 Aug 98 - 05:24 PM

I always thought that 'ye' was the plural form of 'you' and 'thou' was the singular familiar form.

Subject: RE: Pedantry II
From: BSeed
Date: 31 Aug 98 - 08:28 PM

Again I stand corrected. --seed

Subject: RE: Pedantry II
From:
Date: 27 Sep 98 - 05:28 PM

They have named the oldest part of my city "Olde Sandwich Towne." I know such minor matters should be of no import, especially when we should be more concerned with the Powers That Be tearing down old buildings to erect monuments to their individual and corporate egos. However, such tweeness sticks in my craw and I can't bring myself to attend their Olde Sandwich Towne events. I can't believe that any real historian was behind it.

My spelling and grammar are not good enough for me to be pedantic, so I will make no comment on the comments in this thread.:) When I am in doubt, I have to reach for my OED or my Fowler's. Unfortunately, Fowler assumes that you understand the fundamentals of grammar, so often I am still left scratching my head in rube-like confusion.

I should know better, because I am old enough to have been taught grammar and spelling in school. I understand that , in Canada at least, such formalities are frowned upon as inhibiting the development of free expression and self-esteem in children. I wish that I had such a course of studies in my youth, and that I could be both ignorant and filled with self-esteem rather than being just plain ignorant. Why be right or rational, when you can be happy?:)

(BTW, this thread makes me very nervous. Will I now have to do drafts and re-drafts of my posts, since it appears that people are watching me?)

Subject: RE: Pedantry II
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Sep 98 - 06:11 PM

Very good composition, Mr. Jaques. I'm sorry, but I have to take ten points off for the smiley face in the third paragraph. Too cute.

;-)

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Pedantry II
From:
Date: 27 Sep 98 - 07:20 PM

Sorry Joe, I didn't want to be accused of being offensive.

People like to blame the teachers for all of this, but in fact they have little say in what they are allowed to teach. I know of at least one teacher who sits her daughters down at the kitchen table and drills them in grammar and spelling. They complain that other kids don't have to do this, but she answers that they are her kids, not other kids. I am thinking of joining her tutorials.

Subject: RE: Pedantry II
From: BSeed
Date: 27 Sep 98 - 07:35 PM

Joe: @<(:-|)))|(((|-:)>@ (Santa Claus looking at himself in the mirror). Just doodling. --seed

Subject: RE: Pedantry II
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Sep 98 - 02:51 PM

ok, pedants...and those seeking to avoid their wrath...here is the place to go to settle arguments or plan your next post..*grin*

The King's English

Subject: RE: Pedantry II
From: Frank in the swamps
Date: 29 Sep 98 - 05:54 AM

Och Cuilionn, will ye no show up tae skelp the lugs o these gomerals? They're aa daft tae.

Frank i.t.s.

Subject: RE: Pedantry II
From: Martin Ryan
Date: 29 Sep 98 - 11:50 AM

Bill D.

Lovely site! Coincidentally, I had just bought an old copy of the book, in beautiful condition - more for the feel of a real book than for practical use. It provides perfect bathroom reading!

Regards

Subject: RE: Pedantry II
From: Mountain Dog
Date: 29 Sep 98 - 12:35 PM

For an interesting article on the life and work of H.W. Fowler, author and defender extraordinaire of "The King's English" cited above, dig out the following back issue of Smithsonian Magazine:

Nov 1990--Fowler, H. W.

Title: "For the King's English, fighting the good fight"

Date: November 1990

Pages: 106-115

Author: Israel Shenker

Well-written and amusing - and almost certain to appeal to linguistic pedants everywhere.

Subject: RE: Pedantry II
From:
Date: 29 Sep 98 - 04:03 PM

Fowler was at least a highly amusing pedant, especially when attacking other pedants who didn't share his point of view. His book is worth reading for this alone.