Folklore: Arthurian stories: Logres

Subject: Folklore: Arthurian stories: Logres
From: GUEST,Santa
Date: 23 Sep 03 - 06:50 AM

In the Arthurian legends, the good guys come from Scotland, France, etc, but the bad guys come from Logres. (Spelling from memory)

As "Arthur"'s real-life opponents were the Anglo-Saxons, what is the derivation of the word "Logres"?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Arthurian stories: Logres
From: Fiolar
Date: 23 Sep 03 - 10:16 AM

According to "The Encylopaedia of Arthurian Legends" - "Logres was the name of England in Arthurian romance. It comes from Lloegr, the Welsh name for England, perhaps derived from the Anglo-Saxon Legor, an element found in the place name Leicester."

Subject: RE: Folklore: Arthurian stories: Logres
From: mack/misophist
Date: 23 Sep 03 - 10:23 AM

A quick search of google produced this

www.pantheon.org/articles/l/logres.html


which more or less matches my memory. I think it's just another vague term.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Arthurian stories: Logres
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 23 Sep 03 - 10:27 AM

Try these for a starting point - just the result of a quick internet search.
Logres
Sir Meliot de Logres
Quack!
Geoff the Duck.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Arthurian stories: Logres
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 23 Sep 03 - 10:28 AM

SNAP !

Subject: RE: Folklore: Arthurian stories: Logres
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 23 Sep 03 - 01:45 PM

I have quite a pile of Arthuriana. That late French stuff isn't much on history, except we don't really have any history. The latest I have from a contientious historian is that Arthur was probably real, but we do not know a single fact about him, even from Nennius (which I have) and Gildas (which I have), the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle (which I have), or the Cambrian Annals (I have, but they are late copies from Irish Annals, and a presumed late chronicle from Northern England, now unknown).

Subject: RE: Folklore: Arthurian stories: Logres
From: Edain
Date: 23 Sep 03 - 01:56 PM

What brought this on Dad?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Arthurian stories: Logres
From: hesperis
Date: 23 Sep 03 - 09:47 PM

What about the Welsh historical figure who has a striking similarity to Arthur?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Arthurian stories: Logres
From: LadyJean
Date: 23 Sep 03 - 11:19 PM

As I remember it, Arthur defeated the Saxons. At least in legend. The popular theory is that he was a Romanized Celt who fought the Saxon invaders.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Arthurian stories: Logres
From: GUEST,Santa
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 03:51 AM

Edain: the Northumbrian comments in the thread on English attitudes to folk music. The name Logres bounced up from my subconscious and I wondered about its derivation. I've a fair amount of stuff on the Arthurian period - mythical and historical - but it had never occurred to me to ask where the word came from. It seems (from the above help and others) that it is first found in the 12th Century texts, and where it is used as a poetical name for England - or sometimes the part of Britain that became England.

But so far the Leicester comment is the only one to suggest a derivation. There may be other hints in the use of it to describe London - given that London existed 1000 years before Roman Londinium this might be possible, but I'm not sure how solid such a suggestion might be. (As in a choice between not very and very not very.)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Arthurian stories: Logres
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 04:59 AM

I cna confirm that the welsh word for England was and is Lloegr. Any etymologist should be able to confirm the rest.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Arthurian stories: Logres
From: Santa
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 05:17 AM

Dai: We keep a token Welshman in the office for such details, but the budget doesn't run to an etymologist. Welsh (as distinctly Welsh) goes back to the 7th century but Logres/LLoegr apparently doesn't appear before the 12th. Which doesn't mean it wasn't there, of course, but it still leaves it open whether it is an old Celtic word or a new word altogether, possibly adopted from Anglo-Saxon. Given that it describes a state that didn't exist as such in Roman or pre-Roman Britain, I would expect it to be a new word.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Arthurian stories: Logres
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 03:19 PM

I'm not sure Santa's got it the right way about. As I understand it, Logres is anther name for Arthur's kingdom.

In "That Hideous Strength", the concluding book in CS Lewis's sci-fi trilogy, "Logres" is the name used for the forces of good, with a revived Merlin as a key member, who have to battle the powers of technocratic evil.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Arthurian stories: Logres
From: Art Thieme
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 03:19 PM

Dai,

Nice to see you in the forum again.

And it's nice to be named after the king.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Folklore: Arthurian stories: Logres
From: GUEST,Santa
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 05:09 PM

McGrath: Arthur was a king in "England" fighting against its take-over by the Anglo-Saxons. So it does fit that way, too. The name does seem to be used in different ways at different times, partly why it would be interesting to delve down into its origins rather wandering amongst its later use/misuse/abuse.

And yes, here "England" does include the Scottish Lowlands, if the traditions are correct....but let's not go into that. Other than to admit favouring the Arthur myth being based on the struggle of the North Britons, with the "identification" of many of the battle sites in Cumbria and the Borders. This could link "Logres" to Ida's Northumbrians, but not necessarily. There's enough evidence (such as it is) that "Arthur" moved about the country: the name could come from anywhere east of Wales.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Arthurian stories: Logres
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 05:42 PM

The point is, "Logres" is the name of Arthur's kingdom, wherever that might be precisely. Like any kingdom, it's got its share of good guys and bad guys.

I can't swear to it, but I don't think Arthur is in fact referred to as King of England, except in modern children's versions.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Arthurian stories: Logres
From: Jeanie
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 05:45 PM

I've been doing a bit of searching around this and have (so far) come up with a confusing variety of possible derivations.

The "Anglo-Saxon word 'legor'" mentioned in the Encylopaedia of Arthurian Legends (I've got that book too, Fiolar. Isn't it lovely ?) says: "The derivation of legor is puzzling." The word (and nothing obviously related to it) certainly doesn't appear in the Clark-Hall Anglo-Saxon Dictionary. If it does exist anywhere as an AS word, I know someone who will know of it: so I may have more on this later.

As far as the connection with Leicester is concerned, Nennius called Leicester "Caer-Lerion" in his list of 28 towns of Britain in "History of the Britons."

"Logres" is also linked to Locrinis, who is described as "eldest of the sons of Brut" and mentioned by Geoffrey of Monmouth as the "King of Loegria".

- jeanie

Subject: RE: Folklore: Arthurian stories: Logres
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 08:12 PM

As Bruce O remarked, not one fact is known about Arthur, although perhaps there was (were) an Arthur(s). The name may have no significance whatsoever; an invented name by the unknown spieler who made up the tale where it first appears, and adopted by the novelist-poets, Geoffrey and Malory.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Arthurian stories: Logres
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Sep 03 - 01:04 PM

I don't get it? Is Edain's Dad supposed to be King Arthur?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Arthurian stories: Logres
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Sep 03 - 02:39 AM

Since, in Arthur's day there was no such place as England, & 'Arthur' fought one or two battles up among the Strathclyde folks, I assume you are meaning Britain when you say "England"? Moreover, any Welsh word then would refer not to "England" but to something else. Pesumably, the local people he was doing battle with in Britain were Anglo-Saxons, Scots (Irish), Picts, Brythonic Celts & Romano Britons. Would the Welsh word quoted not be a reference to anything alien to them.

The oldest settlement believed on the Thames was Belan's Gate, c400BC.,(Billingsgate) until quite recently. Now a more ancient bridge remnant has been found dated at 2000 BC, I believe.
Bill Charlton

Subject: RE: Folklore: Arthurian stories: Logres
From: Santa
Date: 26 Sep 03 - 04:10 AM

I was using "England" to mean the geographical area now meant by the name, give or take a bit, but before it actually took up the name, to avoid longwinded circumlocutions. I feel somewhat embarrassed that I'd reached my current advanced age without knowing the Welsh name for England.

In the 12th century sources, it seems that Logres was used as distinct from Cornwall, Cumbria and Cambria, (and sometimes as distinct from "Northumbria") so there is then a definite link to the Saxon-dominated area. This makes sense - the Welsh needed a name for the place. But what did it mean before then? According to Morris, who I was reading last night, the British name for the lands in "England" that they occupied in the earlier years of the Saxon struggle was Cymry, the people were the combrogi. To my eyes this makes the use of Logres for Arthur's own British kingdom in "England and elsewhere" a late (and incorrect) variation, but without any actual earlier examples that's only hypothetical.

I would still like to know the origin of the name, as opposed to its use in the myths. At least as much as is possible.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Arthurian stories: Logres
From: Jeanie
Date: 26 Sep 03 - 05:20 AM

I have news from my Anglo-Saxon "informants" about the origin of 'legor/ligor' and its connection with Leicester and the Leicester area:

Leicester is variously named: Leire Caster, ligorensis civitas (803), ligoraceaster (917), Caer-Lerion

Leire and Ligor are early names for the River Soar. The name itself does not appear to have any concrete meaning - but interestingly, it is linked linguistically with the French river name: Loire.

Hope this is of help, Santa, and goes some way to answering your question !

- jeanie

Subject: RE: Folklore: Arthurian stories: Logres
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Sep 03 - 06:07 AM

Remember you're dealing with stories set in feudal and tribal systems. The notion of a kingdom or a country as essentially a piece of territory isn't really in tune.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Arthurian stories: Logres
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 26 Sep 03 - 06:40 AM

...and, the arthurian legends are all high mediaeval, anyway? (grins stupidly as trolls take aim)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Arthurian stories: Logres
From: GUEST,Santa
Date: 26 Sep 03 - 02:46 PM

Yes, the legends are medieval in form, but words go back. If Lloegr is simply the Welsh word for England, where did that come from?

The concept of names for areas of land is in no way medieval in concept. Even tribes have names for their land - but here we are talking about what was a Roman province, which certainly had its own name and names. Cornwall and Kent were accepted terms within Britain from an early date - as indeed were Mercia, Diera and Bernicia.

Jeanie: thanks, I'm not sure if it helps but it is interesting.

Methinks this thread should be dropped from folklore down to BS, if anyone cares?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Arthurian stories: Logres
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Sep 03 - 04:05 PM

Jeanie, sources?
Santa, Go back? Perhaps, but no evidence.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Arthurian stories: Logres
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Sep 03 - 04:25 PM

The point I was making was not that givoing names to areas of territory is moderm, that would be absurd. But identifying a piece of territory with a particular political entity in a fixed way - well, that isn't how tribes have ever worked. Or feudal systems.

A mark of how that works is the way that there was never a King of Scotland before the Union, but a King of Scots.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Arthurian stories: Logres
From: Jeanie
Date: 26 Sep 03 - 04:45 PM

Q: The source for "Caer-Lerion" is Nennius in the 28 towns of Britain listed in the 'History of the Britons';
source for 'ligora' being the name of the river is William of Malmesbury;
source for 'ligoraceaster' is the Anglo-Saxon Chronicles 917;
source for 'Locrinis - King of Loegria' is Geoffrey of Monmouth.

Loegria is defined here as being "England between Humber and Severn".

A very interesting website for anyone interested in early history, the lands, areas and rulers is The History Files

- jeanie

Subject: RE: Folklore: Arthurian stories: Logres
From: Penny S.
Date: 26 Sep 03 - 05:00 PM

I've a dim memory of a derivation of Logres being related to it being the land occupied by the legions - but where I read it I have no idea. My Ordnance Survey Dark Ages map gives Caer Lundein for London. I have another dim recall that Londinium was a Latinisation of something like Londinion.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Arthurian stories: Logres
From: Miken
Date: 26 Sep 03 - 08:57 PM

Thanks, Jeanie, for the link to the History Files. While not a scholar I do enjoy reading in this area.