Watching Scorsese's PBS Blues series?

Subject: Watching Scorcese's PBS Blues series?
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Sep 03 - 12:11 AM

This several nights program started on PBS, yesterday, here. We've been taping it to watch later on. I've caught a few snippets, though and they looked good. Tonight had some wonderful footage of J.B. Lenoir, wow!

Just wondering if anyone else is watching it and what you all think.

Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: Watching Scorcese's PBS Blues series?
From: Mark Clark
Date: 30 Sep 03 - 01:51 AM

I hope to see all the episodes. The opener last night was quite good and was what I expected. I'm still thinking over tonight's episode. The sound and selections were great and I did enjoy those amature films of J.B. Lenoir. Still, the couple who shot the film back in 1964 said they talked with Bob Koester (Jazz Record Mart & Delmark Records) to find out where to hear the blues. I was disappointed that there was no interview with Koester who certainly would have been able to add to the sequence.

I haven't decided whether I liked the "recreation” of 1920s and 30s film that never existed. I had the impression that the clips were simply staged from the director, Wim Wenders’ built in sterotypes and probably bore little resemblence to the actual events.

It looks to me as though an awful lot of important blues performers are going to be left out of the story in favor of spending time on modern blues-influenced performers.

I had intended to tape each episode but now I think I'm just as glad that I didn't. It'll seem fresher each year when PBS affiliates roll it out one more time during their big fund drive.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Watching Scorcese's PBS Blues series?
From: Kaleea
Date: 30 Sep 03 - 04:38 AM

Yep, I've been watching most of it between doing a few other things. I prefer the recordings & footage of the old stuff, & don't need to see alot of the modern times stuff. It is good, however, to show the original composer/performer doing a song, & then brief footage of some modern day musician doing the same song--just enough to get an understanding of the influence & importance of the original.
   I notice that the different episodes seem quite fragmented. I think that a story is best when one starts as close to the beginning as possible, then tells what all happened along the way. This series does not seem to be connected in that manner, & does not take us from point A to B to C with a clear understanding of what happened. I have seen some very good PBS programs which trace a Music genre from its' earliest beginnings & tell the story "play by play" so to speak.
   I don't expect the series to trace the 1st immigrants from Ireland & Scotland etc., & follow every detail of the Music of the slaves before & after the Civil war, as the Gospel roots were developed when the mountain Music began to mix it up with Music out of the South & wander around to become The Blues, but if you are going to help others understand what it is & where it came from, I think it's worth a paragraph or two of explanation before jumping into this Blues singer/player & that one.
    I enjoy Music History stuff, especially when about American folk music--Music genres created in America. There is rarely any American folk Music taught in our schools these days. When I was an elementary Music Educator, except for my 1st position when I had 30 yr old textbooks!!--which is illegal-- the Music textbooks had almost no American folk Music (I am excluding the standard patriotic songs), but had alot of songs written by the Music Educator who edited/wrote the texts. There were, however, usually quite a few examples of Folk Music from other countries.   
    I greatly enjoy tracing of the roots of our
American Music. We often do not realize that our various types of popular Music come from the same basic roots. What an amazing thing it is to consider that people came here from the world over & mixed their Music around & around til new Art forms --of Music as well as Dance--were created. The marvelous Music Art Forms created in America are enjoyed by Music lovers all over the world.   When people are sharing their Art with others, they not only get along, they begin to understand one another. So, why is it that the arts in schools & in communities are usually the first budget cuts?
    This is the year of The Blues--share your love of the Blues with younger folks you know. The Music teacher of your kids/grandkids (or friends' kids) would appreciate having good Musicians come into the Music classes to share The Blues--make it acoustic & very portable to simplify things. & what really gets the kids reallly involved is if the kids get the opportunity to write their own Blues! Think about it!

Subject: RE: Watching Scorcese's PBS Blues series?
From: M.Ted
Date: 30 Sep 03 - 12:28 PM

I watched the Scorsese piece and lost interest. It wasn't really clear what the thing was about, just a hodgepodge of clips tied in with a modern blues guy(who certainly does a good recreation of the old playing and singing styles) going to one place and another without much of any importance to say--The Son House stuff was good, but there is a lot more of it in other places--nice segment about pipe bands, but the whole big chunk in africa had nothing to do with delta blues--In the end, I was reminded that I love everything about Martin Scorsese except his films--

Subject: RE: Watching Scorcese's PBS Blues series?
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Sep 03 - 12:50 PM

Thanks for the comments, folks.

Mark, I hadn't thought about PBS rerunning for pledge time, but of course they will. Good point...I won't be so concerned about recording the rest of it, now.:-) (Though, I do like to watch things at my convenience, not that of the networks.)

Kaleea, good for you! Kids need as many good music teachers as they can get, like you and my sister!

M.Ted, interesting. I'll probably watch what I've got so far this evening, then catch tonight's later on PBS. They are running the whole two hours at 8p and 10p here, so plenty of chances. I certainly prefer seeing the old stuff. In the snippets I've seen, I noticed that a lot of the more modern renditions of songs featured seemed way over-produced to me, losing what I love about the blues. As for Scorsese, I know he is listed as the one in charge of this, but it was my understanding that the first piece was his, while subsequent nights' films were by other directors? Seems I read that somewhere...

thanks, again,

kat

Subject: RE: Watching Scorcese's PBS Blues series?
From: Blues=Life
Date: 30 Sep 03 - 01:35 PM

I am taping each night's show. Yes, some of the last two nights were not worth the video. But footage of Son House, JB Lenoir, Skip James? Oh, yeah, definately worth it. I'll probably never watch the entire episode all the way through. But that's why there are fast-forward buttons on the tape machine. *g*
Blues

Subject: RE: Watching Scorcese's PBS Blues series?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 30 Sep 03 - 06:44 PM

With the Burns jazz series I just taped what I wanted to tape. That means I just saved the artists that "speak to me". Still, I wound up saving 12 hours of that jazz series. I eliminated at least 50 or 60% of the talking heads and much of Ellington and other larger jazz bands that never hit me right.

If I was able to tape these blues shows I'd do it that same way. SKIP JAMES was as unique and brilliant as he was strange and the footage of him last night was a breath of fresh air. I'm glad he was brought to the University Of Chicago Folk Festival---as was Booker T. Washington White, Gray Ghost, Mama Yancey, Speckled Red, Big Joe Williams, Blind John Davis, Rev. Gary Davis, Arvella Gray, Fred NcDowell, Son House, the band Martin-Bogan-Granderson (John Lee) and John Wrencher---(without Howard Armstrong for some reason) plus many other blues greats over the last 4 decades. But, alas, I've no way to watch all of it--let alone tape it. What I did see of the last two nights shows was good as far as it went. Nice video but much of it is available in full on other wonderful videos.

One critique I have is that MANY of the people on screen were NOT identified. In the first night's program there was a quick shot of Woody Guthrie playing with Sonny Terry and neither performer was pointed out. I was glad I'd already seen that video in full elsewhere. Also, shots of Paul Butterfield were not captioned etc. The unique fife and drum band from Mississippi was Ed, Lonnie and D.G. Young. They weren't identified I don't think. They also played their nearly African music on stage at the U. Of Chicago Folk Festival. I have some pretty good slides of their on-stage performancees there.

TONIGHT though, the Cubs are in the playoffs. I doubt I'll see much of this evenings blues show. --------- All in all, as Utah Phillips says, IT'S GOOD THOUGH !!!

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Watching Scorcese's PBS Blues series?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 30 Sep 03 - 06:49 PM

That ought to read G.D. Young----not "D.G."

Subject: RE: Watching Scorcese's PBS Blues series?
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Sep 03 - 07:33 PM

Yeah, Kat, you can bet that this ol' hillbilly is on this one. Like others, I'm tapin' 'em all, takin' notes and enjoyin' the heck out of it... The first show was real cool 'cause I know Corey Harris and took his class at Blues Week...

The local PBS folks spent a day last month at the Archie Edwards Blues Foundation (Archie Edwards Barber Shop) tapin' us and then took 5 hours of tapin' back to the studios to make a 30 second spot that get aired before and after the main feed. They also taped other blues venues 'round town so ours has not been aired as yet. Heck, I don't have a clue if I'm gonna be on it or not but I don't care...

BTW, the Barber Shop got to play at the Kennedy Center 3 weeks ago and I got called on to lead a song. Purdy awsome. Looks ggod on the resume, too.

I'm so psyched by this series! I've told all my friends not to call durin' it unless they want to talk with the answering machine...

Bobert

Subject: RE: Watching Scorcese's PBS Blues series?
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Sep 03 - 08:16 PM

Congratulations, Bobert, that IS awesome!! I hope you tape your *spot* if it airs!

Art, thanks, you know I always look for your take on these type of things, too. If you want the tapes I am making after I get done watching them, they are yours, just let me know. Sure wish I coulda followed you around all those years!**bg**

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah,
I got the Fine Art blues
Gonna take me forever
to catch up to you...

I got the FINE Art blues
They ain't never goin' away...:-)

luvyakat

Subject: RE: Watching Scorsese's PBS Blues series?
From: Steve-o
Date: 01 Oct 03 - 11:53 AM

Oh, come on.....this is a brilliant idea, and a mighty effort by the film makers. Of course there are coherency problems, places that are inaccurate or incomplete, etc., but really folks, Skip James, JB Lenoir, just right there when you turn on your TV??!! Awfully hard to beat. BTW, "I had the impression that the clips were simply staged from the director, Wim Wenders' built in sterotypes and probably bore little resemblence to the actual events"???? There is not a single director working today who is more educated about and better plugged into REAL music, so I think his instincts might just be OK (also see Ry Cooder). I'm watchin' it and lovin' it...warts and all!

Subject: RE: Watching Scorsese's PBS Blues series?
From: Mark Clark
Date: 01 Oct 03 - 01:54 PM

Steve, You're quite right of course. I too am enjoying the hell out of it. I guess those of us posting just figured everyone here would be a fan and, rather than form a sales department or cheerleading squad, tried to go a little deeper than our expression of joy that such a series even exists.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Watching Scorsese's PBS Blues series?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 01 Oct 03 - 02:37 PM

Yes, you are correct. Very good series. Didn't mean to sound all that judgmental. As always, I just like what I like. Blind Willie Johnson, any way we can get him on mass media, is simply the best bottleneck guitarest the blues ever produced.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Watching Scorsese's PBS Blues series?
From: GUEST,Cheryl Lee
Date: 01 Oct 03 - 06:32 PM

Couldn't help but pop in on my way back from my Uncle Remus thread. I agree with Kaleea, I have been watching it faithfully MOSTLY to show my kids that this shit is IMPORTANT.We don't do cable tv, so I don't have to do the MTV battle, et. al., but I've got 2 tween/teen music lovers in the house and I want to impress upon them that a whole lotta people take a whole lotta interest in this.

Subject: RE: Watching Scorsese's PBS Blues series?
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Oct 03 - 06:38 PM

I'm going to wait until the series is over to critique the collection. There are some folks who I hope will get more serious time than others but I'm sure that's the way it is with all of us. But I also understand that if there is too be any depth at all, that lots of folks are going to get slighted...

I loved the black and white segment of the Skip James thing. Does anyone know if Guy Davis was playin' Skip. Sure looks like Guy and plays a lot like Guy, too...

Bobert

Subject: RE: Watching Scorsese's PBS Blues series?
From: Blues=Life
Date: 01 Oct 03 - 08:16 PM

Bobert, not that I blame you, but you did it again!

"BTW, the Barber Shop got to play at the Kennedy Center 3 weeks ago and I got called on to lead a song. Purdy awsome. Looks ggod on the resume, too."

Like I said before: "I hate you."

*G*

Color me GREEN.....Blue Green!

Blues

Subject: RE: Watching Scorsese's PBS Blues series?
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Oct 03 - 08:25 PM

Well, danged, Blues (the Bobert wipes a tear from his eye and looks down at his shoes...) it weren't like on the Millenium Stage but in the Film Theater... sniff...

Okay?

Weren't like 5000 people! Might have been 200 in there... Weren't much more than like, ahhhh, playin' on yer porch with some friends. Really...

Actually, I had more fun, 'er jus' as much, playin' outside. Bunch of us were just sittin' next to the entrance and so I looked over at Vince "Harp Boy" Farrabaugh and Big Jim and next thing ya' know we had a jam going on right there... Now that was fun!....

But I tell ya' what, Bluish Green, you come to the D.C. area and we'll hook up at somethin' and have some good ol' fashion blues fun! Guarenteed...

Bobert

Subject: RE: Watching Scorsese's PBS Blues series?
From: Blues=Life
Date: 01 Oct 03 - 10:18 PM

You're on, Bobert.






But I still hate you.
*g*
Blues

Subject: RE: Watching Scorsese's PBS Blues series?
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Oct 03 - 10:26 PM

LOL, you two!

Well...I went to watch last night's taping and realised I'd forgotten to change the vcr to the right channel, so I missed the whole thing! It was the one on B.B. King, right? Dang it.

Love yer comments, folks, thanks!

Subject: RE: Watching Scorsese's PBS Blues series?
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Oct 03 - 11:10 PM

Sorry, Kat, but you missed BB and Bobby Rush... Hey,IMO, no great loss... But there was some filler stuff that was great. Like Rosco Gordon, the Coasters, Calvin Newborne and an incredible temper tantrum by Sam Phillips of SUN studios.... Bad attitude....

Not the strongest night of the series.

Tonight, a different story... Clips of Bessie Smith, Victoria Spivey (oh, what a fox...), Sam Chapman, the great Reverand Gary Davis, Son House, Mississippi John Hurt, my man Lightnin' Hopkins, Brownie McGhee and some real nice footage of Elizabeth Cotten who worked fir a dollar a "month" but played some fine guitar upsidedown (leftie playin' a right strung guitar....)

Oh, this is almost too much fir one week...

Bobert

Subject: RE: Watching Scorsese's PBS Blues series?
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 01 Oct 03 - 11:57 PM

I forgot it was on last night and only caught the tail end. I watched tonights and was amazed. I realize that a lot of this footage was from the sixties, I was born in '59, so I didn't get a chance to actually see many of my heros. The footage of Mississippi John Hurt, Reverend Gary Davis, John Lee Hooker, Lightnin' etc. was a real treat for me. I also heard some of the cleanest recordings of Blind Lemon Jefferson that I have ever heard. To see Son House perform Death Letter Blues was almost a religious experience.

Did anyone watch the half hour show on Honeyboy Edwards that followed tonight's episode. Apparently it was an excerpt from an upcoming documentary. It was good and I look forward to seeing the full documentary.

Subject: RE: Watching Scorsese's PBS Blues series?
From: outfidel
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 12:27 AM

I'm watching the series, and I like the fact that blues music and musicians are being shown on prime time television. However, this series has been a pretty big disappointment so far (through episode #4). In short, there's way too much talk and not enough music.

The best part about the series is the archival footage. I recommend folks bypass the Scorsese & Co. fluff, and go right for the good stuff here:
-- Vestapol Videos
-- American Folk Blues Festivals on DVD

Subject: RE: Watching Scorsese's PBS Blues series?
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 12:37 AM

Steve, I watched the half hour of Honeyboy and it was fantastic! The docu should be really great if that is any indication of its caliber. I feel the same as you, I didn't know about any of these fellahs back when, having been born in the 50's, too.:-)

Subject: RE: Watching Scorsese's PBS Blues series?
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 12:54 AM

Kat,

Yeah, it should be a great watch. Does anyone know when it is coming out?

Subject: RE: Watching Scorsese's PBS Blues series?
From: JedMarum
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 09:04 AM

I've really been enjoying the series. It has been providing really good information, and even though you only get to see/hear snippets of songs, the series really has a good flow to it. Of course I'd rather hear ALL the music, but the idea of the series is to tell the tale - and this they are doing very well.

I hate to the modern day rock/blues posers get any time on the film, but this has been minimal so far - and I realize there are lotsa folks who don't share my distaste for these guys.

This series, so far, has been quite worthwhile.

Subject: RE: Watching Scorsese's PBS Blues series?
From: Amos
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 09:22 AM

Dunno what last night's segment was called but I loved it -- it had a context of a small nephew being taken away by his uncle into the world of the blues, juke-joints and old shacks and such, interlaced with really fine historical cuts -- Ma Rainey, Bessie, Muddy, Lightnin' and the lot. Loved it. Even played along! Yas, yas, yas!


A

Subject: RE: Watching Scorsese's PBS Blues series?
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 09:44 AM

Steve, it looks as though it came out earlier this year in some theatres, at least.

I agree about last night's show. It was wonderful!

Subject: RE: Watching Scorsese's PBS Blues series?
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 09:48 AM

I should have included this in my first posting. Here is the Official Website for this series, with links about each show and its director. The last one which will air was directed by Clint Eastwood!

Did you all know that 2003 was designated "The Year of the Blues?!"

Subject: RE: Watching Scorsese's PBS Blues series?
From: Amos
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 10:30 AM

Coulda predicted that when the elction went down in Florida....

Subject: RE: Watching Scorsese's PBS Blues series?
From: GUEST,Ole Bull
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 02:19 PM

I am ending up watching for the clips only. Most of the padding is tedious with lousy acting and bad dialect and not a lot of relevance. But I find the subtitles to be insulting. This is the core of American culture not a French Art Film. But worst of all they obscure the visuals, worst than the dumb logo symbols. Am I the only 'catter so desperate to see the playing techniques of masters?
The best thing is that after each episode my local channel puts on other blues documentaries, most better than the series.

Subject: RE: Watching Scorsese's PBS Blues series?
From: Mudlark
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 02:28 PM

Saw the first two and while tru, lots of filler, etc. I'll take whatever I can get. Only real complaint: more music, less talk. Aside from some pertinent biography, the music speaks for itself.

Had to dismantle TV/music system last night as wall-to-wall carpet being installed today. I labelled everything but doubt I'll be able to get it up and running tonight. Y'all enjoy it for me if I can't. One good thing about PBS...you know it will come around again.

Subject: RE: Watching Scorsese's PBS Blues series?
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 02:56 PM

My gawd! Some folks would complain about a free lunch! But then, that seems to be the nature of the Mudcat community when it comes to movies and documentaries about folk music and things related. Some folks condemn the whole thing if there is some small item they disagree with or if their favorite singer is overlooked or isn't given the time they feel they deserve. Pity. They're so busy snarling they wind up missing a lot of good stuff. I'm just glad to see that it's being done at all! Barbara and I are watching the series avidly and so far, we've thoroughly enjoyed it. We're wallowing in it, in fact.

One thing that some people seem to have missed is that this is not just one documentary on the blues, it is a series of films done by different directors, each one coming at it from his own perspective. This may be why some folks find it to be spotty and disconnected. I thought this was made clear by Martin Scorsese in his brief commentary at the beginning of each film. For anybody who missed it, the following quote is from the PBS web site on "The Blues".

Under the guiding vision of Executive Producer Martin Scorsese, seven directors will explore the blues through their own personal styles and perspectives. The films in the series are motivated by a central theme: how the blues evolved from parochial folk tunes to a universal language.

Also, this is not a series of concerts, it is an overview, so they could hardly have each singer sing each song in its entirety. Unfortunate, but necessary to get it all in. Think of it as a "sampler" for those who know less about blues than you do.

I don't do blues, not because I don't like the blues, but because I'm lousy at it. I'm more of a Greensleeves, Child ballad, sea song kind of singer. But that doesn't mean that I don't like blues or that I'm not pretty darn well acquaited with the blues and a number of blues singers. During my perambulations in the early Sixties, I have seen in performance and actually met some of the biggies in the field: Lightnin' Hopkins, Mance Lipscomb, and Mississippi John Hurt at the Berkeley Folk Music Festivals in 1960, '61, and '64 respectively, and wound up at an all night party with with Lightnin' Hopkins and spent a long time chatting with Mance Lipscomb after a workshop. Jesse Fuller spent about two weeks in Seattle performing at The Place Next Door, and during that time I swapped songs with him a couple of times at late-night parties. Also met Libba Cotton at the Northwest Folklife Festival in 1977 (or was it 78? Pretty sure it was '77) and was the next performer after her (talk about a tough act to follow!!). Anyway, I've read a lot about blues, I've listened a lot, and I've seen some of these folks up close, and if that gives me any credentials at all, I go on record as putting my stamp of approval on the series.

My only beef so far is that at the beginning of the fourth film, Warming by the Devil's Fire, very early in the film, a few moments after the beginning in fact, they showed Jesse Fuller, fully equipped with 12-string guitar, mouth harp and kazoo on a neck-rack, and "footdella," doing San Francisco Bay Blues instrumentally, and they didn't credit him with a super as they did the other performers, nor was he listed in the credits at the end (unless it went by too fast to read), nor is he listed on the PBS web site along with the others. Somebody goofed.

Anyway, try to enjoy it and don't be so damned picky.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Watching Scorsese's PBS Blues series?
From: outfidel
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 04:40 PM

My wife and I have watched some of each episode. I am a blues fan and she is not; neither one of us has been terribly happy with this series.

My wife was really looking forward to last night's episode ("Warming by the Devil's Fire") in particular, because she was intrigued by the sacred/profane storyline. However, 5 minutes into the show, she's asking me "Why are they showing this Son House footage *again*?"

After that, she became really bored with the narrative -- every time the kid and his uncle came on the screen, she wanted to flip over to The West Wing. The dialogue and acting She liked the archival footage -- especially of Sister Rosetta Tharpe and Bessie Smith -- but it was too few and far between. So much for appealing to a non-blues fanatic!

For myself, I enjoyed episodes #1 (Feel Like Going Home) and #3 (Road to Memphis) even though they suffered from too much talk and not enough music. But at least they were coherent stories told well.
Episodes #2 and #4 were simply awful IMHO. I got the distinct impression in Episode #2 that Wim Wenders does not know what he's talking about when it comes to blues music, and his focus on that Swedish couple was rather embarrasing ("they didn't like our film...because it was so bad"). Episode #4 was the most disappointing for me because it contained archival footage of a few of my heroes (like Mississippi John Hurt and Libba Cotten), but the narrative plot was long and lame.

Does all this make us "so damned picky", or does it mean we've retained our critical faculties? I prefer the latter, thank you. Yes, it's better than 90% of what's on television, but that's more a comment of what's on television than anything else. A few snippets of riveting performances by Son House, Muddy and the Wolf does not make up for hours and hours of poor storytelling IMHO.

Subject: RE: Watching Scorsese's PBS Blues series?
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 05:41 PM

"Poor storytelling?" Matter of opinion, I guess.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Watching Scorsese's PBS Blues series?
From: Amos
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 05:53 PM

Quite -- I didn't find the story-telling poor in Warming by the Devil's Fire; I found the things that were done were richly done. But I agree that it was not woven deeply enough into the fabric. It is as if they came up with a good plot idea to weave blues parts into and then just glued them on, in a hurry. So the boy's story was left shallow and the uncle's character left undeveloped. Partly a problem with the medium. But boy, they did some parts really right, in the time they had.

A

Subject: RE: Watching Scorsese's PBS Blues series?
From: pattyClink
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 09:15 PM

I don't think it's being picky to not be impressed with this 'we are the authorities, this is the blues' attitude from a bunch of white guys from California and New York who think it's so cool to be blues fans and who now want to tell the rest of us what it's all about.

Subject: RE: Watching Scorsese's PBS Blues series?
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 10:51 PM

The statement was made somewhere in the middle of "Warming by the Devil's Fire" that Johnny-come-latelies put out fifty-year-old records of Robert Johnson, crowing loudly that they had discovered him--failing to realize that maybe they had just discovered him, but there were a lot of people who knew about him all along. Not all these films were made by "white guys from California and New York."

The fifth film is coming on in about an hour and I'm going to go watch it. I've said all I'm going to say. I'm through.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Watching Scorsese's PBS Blues series?
From: JedMarum
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 11:22 PM

I lost interest in tonight's connection with the new stuff ...

But I think some of the commets on the series above forget that the series of films are meant to tell the tale of the blues, to a wide American audience. I think it does that very well indeed. Sure, I'd love to see a one our film of Muddy Waters or Howlin' Wolf - just playin' maybe talkin' some - but that wasn't what this series was all about.

Subject: RE: Watching Scorsese's PBS Blues series?
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 01:20 AM

I really enjoyed most of what I saw, tonight, though it did seem a bit of an ego trip for Chess, until I heard him relate more of what he grew up with and then I realised he'd earned the right to sound so proprietary about a lof of what he was sharing. I liked what they brought abut the kids needing to connect and learn their roots, too.

Art, I kept thinking of you, being there in Chicago and knowing all about this stuff.:-)

Don, thanks for your comments. I guess there's always going to be some critics who think they could've done better. Did you catch what one of the old guys said, tonight? I can't remember which one it was, but he said something like he always thought the critics were the reincarnations of the mob who went after Jesus.:-)

kat

Subject: RE: Watching Scorsese's PBS Blues series?
From: Blues=Life
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 09:13 AM

I liked "Godfathers and Sons" better than I thought I would. I really liked Chuck D's line about most kids don't know about musicians 5 years ago, let alone 30. The fact that a rapper feels such a connection with the blues, and showed reverence for the players, impressed me. I also thought the case was well made that it was immigrants to Chicago who shaped the Chicago blues scene, whether they were from Polond or Mississippi. Being from the Midwest, and living in the South, I find myself feeling like an immigrant sometimes, but I had never conceptualized it this way. Now, it makes sense. The immigrant looks at a new culture through different lenses than the native.

By the way, Koko can still bring it!

Blues

Subject: RE: Watching Scorsese's PBS Blues series?
From: Amos
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 09:27 AM

Man, I loved watching old Muddy and watching the kids groove in on it and pick it up in their own jargon and metaphor. It was, as Blues says, better than you thought it was gonna be, and it left me grinning seriously in celebration of the blues.

A

Subject: RE: Watching Scorsese's PBS Blues series?
From: outfidel
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 09:35 AM

Re: Episode #5 ("Godfathers and Sons")

The positives:
1) The film making was better than episodes #2 ("Soul of a Man") and #4 ("Warming by the Devil's Fire"). At least it told a story that was coherent and interesting.
2) You had appearances by old-time Chicago legends like Otis Rush, Koko Taylor, Magic Slim, Lonnie Brooks, and Pinetop Perkins.
3) You also saw archival footage of Muddy, Wolf, Sonny Boy and Little Walter.
4) Chuck D seems like a genuinely intelligent guy who knows and cares about blues history.

The negatives:
1) Marshall Chess came across as an irritating buffoon, constantly cussing and boasting to try to prove himself.
2) "Electric Mud" is perhaps the worst album ever put out by Chess Records, and certainly the worst in Muddy's career. That's not just the opinion of critics -- Muddy himself called it "dogshit" and Buddy Guy said much the same. Fans also hated it -- while initial sales were strong, the Chess warehouse was soon bulging with heavy returned LPs. Last night's episodes didn't mention this, but it's in the Muddy biography "Can't Be Satisfied" as well as the liner notes to the reissued "Electric Mud".
3) Speaking of Buddy Guy, why wasn't he in this episode? He's pretty much the reigning king of Chicago blues and he was a 60s Chess artist. Not including him spoke volumes about the merits of "Electric Mud" and this reunion project.
4) The blues/hip-hop relationship is more distant than the filmmakers made it seem. Blues begat soul/r&b begat funk begat hip-hop. So while the episode was well made, its underlying argument was questionable.

Subject: RE: Watching Scorsese's PBS Blues series?
From: M.Ted
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 12:26 PM

I am not watching anymore, it just wasn't interesting enough for me---to Don Firth I will say that there are some blues documentaries that capture the excitement, get the details right, and stay on topic-- Les Blank's films about Lightnin' Hopkins and Mance Lipscomb come to mind immediately--

These Scorcese Blues documentaries are very much like the Burns Brothers work--they pick a subject that they know will have a broad ranging appeal, then they put as many big names on the grant applications as possible--then they try to get the stuff done fast on for a tight budget, the stretch what they have to fill as much prime time as possible, and promote the hell out of it-- in the end, this is more about the politics of funding public broadcasting than about music--

Subject: RE: Watching Scorsese's PBS Blues series?
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 07:57 PM

Well, so far the white guys have certainly shown themselves to be jerks. Marshall Chess's "street nigga" act was embarrassing. Looked more like a guy tryin' to cover up somethin'... Maybe, like how Chess ripped off so many black folks...

Sorry, I wasn't gonna say nuthin' bad about no one, but...

Yeah, being a bluesplayer, I'll watch the rest of the series but I'd sure like to see more of a documentary and less contrived stuff...

Bobert

Subject: RE: Watching Scorsese's PBS Blues series?
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 11:03 PM

Well, danged! The white boys came thru tonight in Mike Figgis's turn with his superbly written and directed "Red, White & Blue". I reckon Eric Buden said it best when he said that the "Brits took what the American culture threw on the trash pile" and.... salvaged it.

Great clips of Big Bill Broozey, Sister Roseta Thorpe (Boy, sah could rock!...), Eric Clapton playin' with Otis Spann and Muddy Waters.... Whew.... And Booker T.... And Little Joe Cook killin' "Stormy Mondays"...

Yeah, thankee British white guys.... If yer into tutorin' our white guys, we need it....

(Okay, maybe me included... Jus' thought I'd throw that in to take the wind out of the trolls sails....)

Bobert

Subject: RE: Watching Scorsese's PBS Blues series?
From: outfidel
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 11:43 PM

re: British blues episode

I thought that tonight's episode was okay for what it was trying to accomplish. The director wanted to show how white British kids loved black American blues/r&b, copied the music, and brought it back to America. Mission accomplised. The British musicians seemed pretty honest, even humble to me -- they were clearly in awe of Muddy, Wolf, et al.

The problem:
-- this story has been told millions of times in every rock history book and FM classic rock radio station (although I never realized how important Tom "What's New, Pussycat? Jones was to the Brit blues scene)
-- once again, it's a classic case of ignoring the center in favor of the peripheral when 1/7 of the series is devoted to British blues while ignoring Piedmont & Texas blues

Instead of "The Blues", this series should be called "Some Random Thoughts about Music That Martin Scorsese Likes".

Subject: RE: Watching Scorsese's PBS Blues series?
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Oct 03 - 12:05 AM

this story has been told millions of times in every rock history book and FM classic rock radio station

Well a lot of it has NOT been told out here in the Rocky Mountains where I grew up, or maybe I just wasn't in the right circles. At any rate, other than wishing Jones would shut up and just let the Howlin' Wolf tracks, etc. play, I really enjoyed tonight's episode. I am sure some of that is because it was more contemporary about the decade when I was just beoming aware of music other than that on which I'd been raised.

For those who are a bit younger and/or just weren't aware of what the heck "skiffle" was (until we asked at Mudcat) and that Jagger, Clapton, and others' music really came from the blues, tonight's show was really informative. (No, I didn't about skiffle, but I did have an inkling about Jagger et al and the blues connection. My uncles used to play some great jazz and blues when I was growing up. One of them's nickname was "Nig" for his curly black hair and the way he wailed on clarinet.)

And, yeah, Bobert, wasn't Sister Rosetta Tharpe incredible on that geetar! I also really enjoyed seeing and hearing Lulu... who knew? Good going, gyrl!

kat

Subject: RE: Watching Scorsese's PBS Blues series?
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 04 Oct 03 - 11:48 AM

I couldn't get this episode. Was it shown at a different time? Out PBS feed is from Buffalo and they were showing an old movie.

Subject: RE: Watching Scorsese's PBS Blues series?
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Oct 03 - 01:42 PM

It was the same time here, Steve, as it has been all week. If you would like, we could make a copy for you.

Subject: RE: Watching Scorsese's PBS Blues series?
From: GUEST,PaulineL
Date: 04 Oct 03 - 11:29 PM

I'm one of the people who really liked the film on Chess and Electric Mud. I felt the continuity and appreciation of roots that some of today's "kid" artists did. Was anyone else as sentimental as I in this way: I was so moved that I cried when I heard that Voyager 1 and 2, in an effort to communicate with aliens, carried a recording by Chuck Berry. (I already knew that Bach's Chaconne was used for the same purpose, and I think that's great, too.)

Subject: RE: Watching Scorsese's PBS Blues series?
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Oct 03 - 12:05 AM

I wish that Clint Eastwood had directed some of the other episodes as well. I thought tonight's was fantastic, esp. as he wasn't on any ego trip...he just sat back and let the musicians and their music speak for themselves. It was beautiful. Pauline, I cried my eyes out when Ray Charles sang America the Beautiful and it takes a lot for me to respond to "patriotic" things these days. It was incomparable, imo.

Tonight's episode also made me cry as it reminded me so much of my mom and her brothers...made me miss them terribly and wish we'd had the capability back then to videotape them when they jammed; my dad, too. The piano: classical, jazz, honkey-tonk, boogie-woogie, sentimental was such a big part of our lives...tonight really brought it all home to me, again. I could even hear the influence of it all in some of my brother's classical piano pieces while listening to the show tonight.

Thanks for taking part in this thread, all of you,

kat

Subject: RE: Watching Scorsese's PBS Blues series?
From: Mark Clark
Date: 05 Oct 03 - 12:48 AM

I also enjoyed Eastwood's piano blues film. With a very few essential exceptions, he dealt only with living musicians and then only those who had come to the music in a natural (as opposed to academic) way. He could have thrown in historic footage of some of the great piano blues players but then it would have been much like Scorsese's film but substitute piano for guitar. Rather than retell the stories of dead musicians, he allowed the living blues to tell its own story in a sense.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Watching Scorsese's PBS Blues series?
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 05 Oct 03 - 11:27 AM

Kat,

Once again this wasn't shown on the Buffalo station. I was really looking forward to the Eastwood one. Perhaps they will start it up again tonight and play the Friday and Saturday shows. If not, I will take you up on your offer of a copy.

Steve

Subject: RE: Watching Scorsese's PBS Blues series?
From: open mike
Date: 05 Oct 03 - 01:58 PM

i tuned it in for the first time last night
and the one of the series which highlights
Piano Blues, with Clint Eastwood, was on.
All those flying fingers! There was a lot
of action under tyhe key board too--tapping
toes and dancing feet! Glad i was alerted to
this show...have not seen any others..I found
out that for a dollar and some change per
month i can pull in the PBS signal on DirectTV
satelite. Glad I figured out that I can get PBS
now i wish i had gotten that in time to see the
other segments...well, like you say--pledge time...

Subject: RE: Watching Scorsese's PBS Blues series?
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Oct 03 - 08:49 PM

I may be a wide-eyed barefoot pilgrim, but I thoroughly enjoyed the entire series.

If one followed all seven of the films without going out into the kitchen, switching to "The West Wing," or turning the television off, one could have seen a historical arc from West Africa to the Mississippi Delta to Memphis to Chicago, then a dissemination all over the world. One could have seen how the blues has permeated popular, jazz, almost all forms of music including classical music not just in America, but all over the world. Like a wad of clay that is transferred from hand to hand, it bears the imprint of each hand that has held it and picks up the imprint of each new hand it is passed to, but its essence remains the same as when it first started out. The original material is still there. A fascinating aspect of the history of music and a fascination cultural study.

One can quibble about the various narratives techniques and the commentaries by "white guys" and some of their self-aggrandizement (I didn't notice all that much of it, really--but remember, they were an essential link in the chain), but this was of minuscule importance. It merely tied things together, while the real meat of the series was the music (of which, there was a lot) and the conversations and by-play between the musicians themselves. When one finds oneself with an opportunity to sit in the corner and listen to conversations between the Gods of Olympus, it seems a bit petty to complain about the decor of the temple. . . .

Parable:-- An eager young man who aspired to become a Buddhist monk appeared before a very old and wise monk and asked him for instruction. The old monk agreed to take him on as a pupil. The enthusiastic young man then launched into a long dissertation on all of the studying he had done, all the books he had read, all of the discussions he had had with those who aspired to enlightenment as he did, and proudly detailed all of the arguments he had won because of his extensive and thorough study. The old monk listened with a smile. Then he said, "Let us have some tea, then I will begin your instruction. Would you care to pour, please?" The young man picked up the tea pot and filled the old monk's tea cup, then filled his own. When he had set the tea pot down, the old monk picked it up and poured more tea into the young man's cup. He poured until the cup overflowed, tea running all over the table, and continued to pour until the tea ran down into the young man's lap. The young man leaped up from the table, brushing the tea off the front of his brand new saffron-colored robe, and said, "What are you doing, you silly old man!?" The old man continued to smile pleasantly and said, "Showing you that your cup will hold no more tea. You have come to me already so full of knowledge that you have left no room for a silly old man like me to teach you anything."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Watching Scorsese's PBS Blues series?
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Oct 03 - 09:22 PM

...it seems that someone is busy posting the 2CD set of Scorcese's "The Blues-A Musical Journey" on newsgroups--in Ogg vorbis format.

I'm sure that Scorcese & the record company must be thrilled. And we wonder why there are lawsuits happening?

Subject: RE: Watching Scorsese's PBS Blues series?
From: Blues=Life
Date: 06 Oct 03 - 09:36 AM

Right after the Piano Blues segment, NC PTV showed Stevie Ray Vaughan outtakes from Austin City Limits, followed by a Blues Special from Mountain Stage. And I had one more blank tape. Life is good!!!!!!!!

Blues

Subject: RE: Watching Scorsese's PBS Blues series?
From: John Hardly
Date: 06 Oct 03 - 10:13 AM

wow.

The whole series and nar'y a mention of alchohol/substance abuse. That's reality TV for you.

Subject: RE: Watching Scorsese's PBS Blues series?
From: outfidel
Date: 06 Oct 03 - 11:17 AM

Parable:-- An eager young man who aspired to become a Buddhist monk appeared before a very old and wise monk and asked him for instruction. The old monk agreed to take him on as a pupil. The old monk then launched into a long dissertation on all of the studying he had done, all the books he had read, all of the discussions he had had with those who aspired to enlightenment as he did, and proudly detailed all of the arguments he had won because of his extensive and thorough study. After 90 minutes, he sent the boy home, and told him to return the next night. The old monk repeated this for 7 nights in a row, 90 minute each night. The young man listened with a smile. Finally, the young man said, "That is all well and good. Now, please tell me all that you have learned. I seek wisdom and knowledge, not *your* life story."

Subject: RE: Watching Scorsese's PBS Blues series?
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Oct 03 - 12:05 PM

Perhaps there was more to what the old monk was saying than the callow young man had the intellectual and emotional capability to perceive.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Watching Scorsese's PBS Blues series?
From: outfidel
Date: 06 Oct 03 - 12:52 PM

Perhaps. Or perhaps the young man had the intellectual and emotional capability to perceive when someone is blowin' smoke.

Subject: RE: Watching Scorsese's PBS Blues series?
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Oct 03 - 01:59 PM

Perhaps. But then, perhaps this whole discussion is just folks blowin' smoke.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Watching Scorsese's PBS Blues series?
From: M.Ted
Date: 06 Oct 03 - 02:08 PM

If you'd given that little story to Marty Scorcese, he probably would have thrown that into the series, as well--anything to stretch it out--

Subject: RE: Watching Scorsese's PBS Blues series?
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Oct 03 - 03:32 PM

Perhaps the young man will awaken to egg on his face.

I liked the programs...there were more good parts than not, IMO. I am sorry some of you feel so much more knowledgable and feel the need to denigrate the directors who at least tried and those of us whose viewing habits you apparently do not share or approve of.

Subject: RE: Watching Scorsese's PBS Blues series?
From: open mike
Date: 06 Oct 03 - 04:20 PM

I like this comment:
"Like a wad of clay that is transferred from hand to hand, it bears the imprint of each hand that has held it and picks up the imprint of each new hand it is passed to, but its essence remains the same as when it first started out. The original material is still there."

BTW--what is " Ogg vorbis format. "?

Subject: RE: Watching Scorsese's PBS Blues series?
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Oct 03 - 05:11 PM

Ogg vorbis is a newish way to compress sound...it generally gets cleaner sound into less space than MP3 and others...it is getting to be common among some of those who know about such things. An entire newsgroup is devoted to trading files encoded that way.

Subject: RE: Watching Scorsese's PBS Blues series?
From: GUEST,Steve Latimer
Date: 08 Oct 03 - 12:56 PM

The Buffalo station returned to the series last night. It was the Red, White and Blues Episode. I found the Blues through British Blues/Rock bands and I really enjoyed this episode. It reminded me againg that Van Morrison can flat out sing. I was surprised at just how much Tom Jones knew about the Blues, but I didn't really enjoy his take on the songs he was singing. I would have liked to hear more of Jeff Beck, it's not often that you hear him in an acoustic setting. Eric Clapton was something in the Cream days, I think he has lost the edge that he had then. Lulu was a pleasant surprise.   

A few surprises. Joe Cocker and Led Zeppelin weren't even mentioned and the Stones were passed over pretty quickly.               

I'm looking forward to the Eastwood Piano episode tonight.

Subject: RE: Watching Scorsese's PBS Blues series?
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Oct 03 - 03:03 PM

Oh good, Steve! Sounds as though we had similar takes on that episode. I look forward to your comments on tonight's show, too.:-)

Subject: RE: Watching Scorsese's PBS Blues series?
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 08 Oct 03 - 11:29 PM

I missed the first half hour and therefore most of the Ray Charles stuff. I love Ray. But it was neat to see the Otis Span, Professor Longhair, Oscar Peterson and Count Basie footage. I did giggle a bit when Clint was going on about Blues & Jazz being an American Art form and then jumping directly to Oscar Peterson, a Canadian. Fats Domino was before my time. I thought that he was a one hit wonder, I didn't realize that he was a well respected New Orleans pianist.      

I loved Pinetop Perkins statement when Clint asked him to play. He said something to the effect of I used to play that real good, but I got stabbed in the arm and I just can't do that left hand stuff anymore. Now that's the blues.