Welsh songs

Subject: Welsh songs
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 01 Oct 03 - 02:27 AM

Now that there are some knowledgeable Welsh speakers here,
let's try again for some translations. A previous request proved
fruitless. Let's try literal first, and if the song looks
interesting, then make a metrical translation (you, not me).
In the broadside ballad index at www.erols.com/olsonw see:
1a: ZN2711, title1 = Britain's Valor. tune = Oh, no, no, no, not
yet. Stationers' Register entry on Jan. 21, 1634. The tune for 1a
is probably "I'll never love thee more" = [Scottish] Chevy
Chase. [One of my favorites. ABC of tune = B228 among the
broadside ballad tunes.]
1b: title2 = The Welsh-Mens Glory. tune2 [None indicated]. Cf.
ZN3080.
Cf. (both) above with ZN3080.

2: ZN3235, title = Byd Y bigail. tune = daintie new tune. Author
= Terfyn R. H. No Stationers' Register entry, but printed before
the end of 1632:

Cf. ZN1373, ZN3531, and search whole flie for 'Welsh'.

Subject: RE: Welsh songs
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Oct 03 - 02:29 AM

or lets not

Subject: RE: Welsh songs
From: sian, west wales
Date: 01 Oct 03 - 04:56 AM

Well, I'd contribute to the discussion if I knew what the heck that was all about. I got as far as the website, then the rest of your message is all Greek ...

Maybe it's just too early in the day for me ...

wedi'm drysu
sian

Subject: RE: Welsh songs
From: Chris in Wheaton
Date: 01 Oct 03 - 05:51 PM

Ga' i ofyn ein bod ni'n canolbwyntia am cerddoriaeth ysgrifennu ers 1634?
Chris

Subject: RE: Welsh songs
From: sian, west wales
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 04:55 AM

Rwy'n credu bod rhydd-hynt i bobl drafod cerddoriaeth o unrhyw adeg ar y 'Cat.

sian

Subject: RE: Welsh songs
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 09:19 AM

How about letting us non-Welsh (Cymri) speakers in on what you're saying.

Subject: RE: Welsh songs
From: sian, west wales
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 10:27 AM

Oh, I was wondering where you'd got to. Could you do a blicky to the songs in question? I can't follow the references with which you started this thread, but I'd like to see the songs ...

sian

Subject: RE: Welsh songs
From: Mary Humphreys
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 11:47 AM

Had the same problem - gave up after half an hour's searching with my browser for ZN2711. Took forever and a day to download the file.
Any chance of a direct link to songs?
Mary H

Subject: RE: Welsh songs
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 03:24 PM

Sorry, sian, Mary. Locations of texts, but not the texts are in the broadside ballad index on my website. I can type up the texts, but not in time to see them from Wales before about midnight tonight. I would start with the other one, because we have a workable (and probably correct) tune cited for the song.

Subject: RE: Welsh songs
From: sian, west wales
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 05:03 AM

Ah, I see. Light slowly dawns. I needed to know that it was in your Broadsides collection to start ...

I guess I can't help, as I don't have instant access to a full ballad resource. I could eventually find out a few bits 'n' pieces for you perhaps but I can't help with translation unless you scan the words and send it e-mail. PM me for an e-mail address if you want.

I did do a search for 'Welsh' and found a few things of personal interest. I note that, under "Flee Stately Juno" it notes "Tune: Welshe Sydanen [Sedany]" If memory serves, Sidanen (as it is currently spelled) was written for Queen Eliz I by John Dee, her physician/counsellor etc upon whom the play, "The Alchemist" was supposedly based. The tune evolved into The Irish Washer Woman.

sian

Subject: RE: Welsh songs
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 07:03 AM

Typing up "Byd Y bigail' turned out to be a much bigger job than I had thought, but I should have it here in a few hours.

Subject: RE: Welsh songs
From: sian, west wales
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 07:21 AM

My sympathies!!!!!!!

No scanner? I'd do the typing for you then ...

sian

Subject: RE: Welsh songs
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 09:40 AM

Bibliography is here complex. The ballad was printed about 1635,
but was written about 1600, with a manuscript text of about that
date in BL Addl. MS 14,974. The Welsh of the broadside version
(B) is very corrupt, and that given below is from the MS (a),
reprinted by F. N. Robinson in 1905, and from that reprinted by
H. E. Rollins in 'The Pepys Ballads', I, #32, 1929. The author is
on B given as R. H., and evidence in the MS (A) is that he was
Richard Hughes. Rollins gives both the broadside text (B) and the
MS (A) text, plus a text translated from the MS (A). To add to
the complications, several of the Welsh words are no longer
understood. Note, that there is a lot of repetition, even before
the chorus. The piece is much too sophisticated to be of
broadside origin.



Byd Y bigail (B) [bugail-MS (A)]

Being the same in Welsh, to a dainty new tune. (B)

[Now, MS (A) text]
Diofal yw bywyd y bugail da 'l awen, A
A'i god ac a'i gostrel ai gwns fo mor Hawen.
Mae'n cael y gweirgloddie oi hofian, pan fino,
A'i bibau newyddion ar lasfryn, crwn cryno.
[chorus] Tra fynno, tra fynno, ican pan i tynno
A'i bibau newyddion ar lasfryn crwn, cryno.
   
A'i ddefaid o'i amgylch yn pori 'rhyd dolydd,
Bara a chaws, cwrw da lonaid i golydd;
A'i gostog o'i ymyl yw annos pan fyno
I drosi holl ddefaid i'r glasfryn crwn, cryno.
Tra fynno, &c.

Rhag gwres y Mehefin fo a tan y dail irion,
Rhag oerwynt gwanwyn i dwlc ne glawdd tirion.
O groen yr hen ddafad, ne'r oen cynta a ryno,
Gwna ddyrnfil a bacsau dan lasfryn, crwn cryno.
Tra fynno, &c.

Ni cheir mono's segur un munyd drwy'dydd,
Ond pwytho ne wau pleth-wellt yn wastad y bydd,
A hon drwy syberwyd i bawb ar i pryno
A werth wrth y gwryd tan lasfryn, crwn, cryno.
Tra fynno, &c.

Prynhawn pan ddel Mwynen i'r fuches ne'r gorlan,
Rhaid eiste cyn cytio dan dwmpath ne dorlan,
A bwyta i prynhawn fwyd o'r bwyd [gore] a ellyno,
Tan ffeirio cusanau ar lasfryn, crwn, cryno.
Tra fynno, &c.

Duw, falched yw'r bugail ar dirion fugeiles
Yn canu dyrie bob yn ail, bob yn eilwes;
Ai napkin sidanog o'i phoced pan dynno,
Hi a'i kipia, fo ai tripia ar lasfryn crwn cryno.
Tra fynno, &c.

Ow sefwch, arewch, y bugail drwg, diriaid!
Ffei kiliwch! Dyd, gwiliwch! i chwi ni allai ymddiriaid.
A'ch pibau o chwyyhwch fy nghodau yn llawn,
Fo eiff holl gylenig i bawb ai gofynno.
Na'mdynnwch, os mynwch, ar lasfryn crwn cryno.
Tra fynno, &c.


[Translation]

The Sheperd's Word

Care-free is the life of the shepherd, song-loving! With his bag
and his flagon he makes him so happy. He strolls o'er the meadows
whenever he wishes, with his new pipes on the round and trim
green hills. While he wills, while he wills, he sings when he
tunes his new pipes on the round trim hills.

With his sheep around him, feeding on the meadows; with bread,
cheese, and ale right full his belly; and his dog by his side to
send after whenever he wishes to drive all the sheep to the
round trim green hill.

Against the heat of June he goes under the green leaves, against
the cold winds of spring to a hovel or kindly hedge. From the
skin of an old sheep or the first lamb that is frozen, he makes
himself mittens and leggings 'neath the round trim green hill.

He is never found idle for a minute throught the day; he spends
all his time stitching or weaving straw, which he will generously
sell by measure to any who wishes to buy on the round trim green
hill.

In the afternoon when Mwynwn comes tothe milking-place or the
sheepfold, they sit down, before driving the sheep into the fold,
'neath a mound or bank. They eat their afternoon meal of the best
food with cheese, exchanging kisses on the round trim green
hill.

God, how proud are the shepherd and the gentle sheperdess,
singing songs in turn or alternate verses! His silk kerchief,
when he draws it from her pocket, she snatches it, and he trips
her on the round trim green hill.

O stop, go slow, you wicked mischievious sheperd! O fie, go away!
Lord, take care, for I cannot trust you! Should you with your
pipes blow tight my bags, all the wool of your sheep will be
required to compensate me. To everyone who asks, this is no New
Year's gift. Do not strive together, if you wish to on the round
trim green hill.

Subject: RE: Welsh songs
From:
Date: 14 Jan 04 - 05:41 PM

at it announces that Bruce Olson died on October 31, 2003. Was this, Welsh songs, his last message? Darn it, I had so much I hadn't asked him yet. But he left us so much.

Subject: RE: Welsh songs
From: breezy
Date: 14 Jan 04 - 07:48 PM

this would interest Nathan at the very friendly and talented bound Llantrisant Folk Club especially as he is doing 'Ah' level welsh.

Likes oysters

Wednesday nights at the Windsor, Pont y clun,

Subject: Welsh songs
From: Chris in Wheaton
Date: 15 Jan 04 - 03:26 PM

Sorry for the bad joke above, Arglwydd dyma fo, rest in peace, Bruce.

Great lyrics - but I wonder about the last line -
"do not strive together" ??
That seems too literal translation of, is it, tynnu (mdynnwch)? Can anyone suggest something ("go overboard"?) that has more of the playful air of the last verses?

Dioch yn fawr, Chris

Subject: RE: Welsh songs
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Jan 04 - 09:44 PM

Just a thought, and as this may have been Bruce's last request. Can someone point me at the music? or at least the scansion.
It seems we have a prose translation of the song. A singable translation would (possibly) be more effective

Nigel

Subject: RE: Welsh songs
From: breezy
Date: 23 Jan 04 - 05:03 AM

tynnu == pull [together]