Singers at Sing-arounds

Subject: Folklore: Singers at Sing-arounds
From: Janie
Date: 01 Oct 03 - 11:27 PM

"Folklore" may seem an odd prefix for this, but as I was reading through Sing-around threads, I realized that I was reading what has become MORE of the folklore of culture of folk music.

I did not, however, find answers to my question.

Which is about what I should do as a "non-musician" singer at a sing-around. Do I ask or invite the instrumentalists to play? Do I state my key when I know it? Should I announce the song title and hum a few bars for them to find the key? Or do I just start singing and figure anyone who wants to play, will? Don't respond until you have read the following details, because I want to know what to do in my very specific situation. Hopefully, it will help others in similiar postions.

I believe, and have been told, that I have a good voice. I love to sing, but I am not a practiced musician. I haven't played an instrument in years, and never worked at one hard enough to acheive even average proficiency when my hands and fingers were still capable of playing.

Since we moved to North Carolina, 17 years ago, I have done nearly all of my singing to myself, and have only begun singing with and around other people fairly recently. My voice is not experienced. My ear is not developed. I don't often know in what key I sing a song. Sometimes I have trouble finding or choosing the best key for my voice at the time. I have a decent but low range for a woman (2nd tenor), and my impression from watching the instrumentalists is I tend to sing in keys in which they do not usually play the song.

Sometimes some of them will play along, and sometimes they won't. It is fairly certain that I have been singing alone so long that I have my own (unnoticed to me) variants of many songs that I have been singing, but not listening to, for years.

OK. Now I want to hear what some of you think.

Thanks!

Janie

Subject: RE: Folklore: Singers at Sing-arounds
From: GUEST,BOAB
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 01:20 AM

Forgive me, Janie, if I suggest that some of your "problems" are unusual! You write as someone who has been around the singalong scene for quite a while. Unless you have a tendency [not unpraiseworthy---]to introduce new material often in your public appearances, it seems to me that songs with which you are long familiar shouldn't pose problems "key-wise". Most singers know from past experience which key suits their range in whatever song they sing. There are, of course , some factors which are beyond the control of the singer. One is encountered very often when required to sing along, or perform in unison with others. The comfortable range of YOUR voice can quite easily be a "no-no" with many others. Again, you may encounter musicians [not often, mind,] who cannot play in your chosen key, or who boorishly insist on playing in the key in which they themselves are most comfortable. The great majority of singers, however, don't seem to encounter such problems after they realise that it is a great help to musicians if they can be told the favoured key. Maybe you can find some comfort in the fact that this grizzled [truly}songster is compelled to sing down in his boots in order to accomodate the two female singers in our group. We all have a cross to bear!!
Boab

Subject: RE: Folklore: Singers at Sing-arounds
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 01:38 AM

If you're a singer who doesn't play an instrument, of course you may have no idea what key you're in, or what might be a do-able key for others. No surprise there.

The only way to find out is to sit down (at some other time than the singaround) with a player or a pitch pipe and search around until you identify what key is comfortable for you and/or others. (What's best for you may be something like E-flat -- not so handy for others, but a compromise to D might work.)

If you do this for some of your favorite songs, then you can remember (or carry a note as to) what keys they are and let the instrumentalists know, if you really want them to join you. And, if you do this for several songs, you might be able to guess at a key to try for other songs, if they mostly end up in the same area.

But, don't be shy about singing unaccompanied - it's a fine and under-appreciated thing.

If you want people to sing along, that's great, but if your voice is pitched in a hard place for them, they'll just have to find a harmony. Not much you can do about it.

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: Folklore: Singers at Sing-arounds
From: jacqui.c
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 04:03 AM

Janie - You could almost have been stating my situation there. I've only been singing again for the past three years and don't seem to be able to get the hang of playing the guitar, let alone playing and singing at the same time.

I've learnt all my songs from listening to recordings over and over again and singing along very untunefully because the key is never comfortable for me and then transposing to my own pitch when I sing them. I have been very lucky at the singarounds I go to in that there are some lovely musicians there who will tell me the key that I sing a particular song in. I also have a very good friend who tells me when I'm going out of tune, or when a song I'm trying really doesn't suit my voice. I've now been told that I sing in A-flat or C, but I still couldn't really tell you which one I use for each song.

All I can say is, if someone tells you your key for a particular song write it down and then you can tell the musicians. If you don't know the key you could tell the group and ask them to let you know after you've finished. Mind you, I would agree with Desert Dancer - there's nothing wrong with unaccompanied singing - sometimes it can be better as over-enthusiastic musicians can make it very difficult to hear the singer and, if there are slightly different versions of a tune, which can happen, it can be quite off putting for a singer.

Good luck anyway - just go out there and sing your heart out - we all do it for the enjoyment we get from it and that should be the real criteria for everything we do.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Singers at Sing-arounds
From: GUEST,KB
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 04:18 AM

What I would do in your position is to get together with a player or two in the privacy of your own home & practice some songs in keys that suit you all. That will give you confidence about singing those particular songs with accompaniment & you can state what key you want - also hopefully those that you practiced with will lead the accompaniment.
Or learn some very basic guitar so that you can strum along gently - ensuring that you are singing in tune & in the key you meant to be in & just make it clear that you'd welcome other players to back you up instrumentally. Though, as Desert Dancer points out, unaccompanied singing is a wonderful thing in itself.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Singers at Sing-arounds
From: VIN
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 04:28 AM

Same here janie. I'm 52, have been listening to folk/contemporary music for deacades and joining in choruses but have only recently started singing solo, unacompanied, at singarounds. I play whistle a bit but have'nt a clue about keys. It's nice when people join in but i would feel a little embarrased if asked what key it's in! I usually manage to find a comfortable level to sing at though and the response is usually encouraging. Anyway carry on singing Janie and good luck!!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Singers at Sing-arounds
From: Deckman
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 04:47 AM

Hi Janie: Bob here. You not only ask a very good question, but you also express it very clearly. It's very easy to identify with your situation. I want to make a couple of suggestions:

This one will make YOU and I rich! Let's us collaborate and invent and market a "SINGERS CAPO!" Think about it. As a soloist, you'll never have to adjust your voice again to fit with an out of tune guitar. You'll just slide this device (I'll leave the details to you) around on your throat until the guitar player stops glaring at you. Hey, what a concept.

But, to be serious, although I think there a money maker in my last thought, the suggestions you've already received regarding practising with some instrumentalists makes a lot of good sense.

Also, I personally like the human voise as a solo instrument. You might consider, on some songs, mentioning that you'd like to sing a song by yourself.

By the way, I've ALWAYS enjoyed your range, secong tenor. Not many ladies can do that.

Very best wishes, Bob

Subject: RE: Folklore: Singers at Sing-arounds
From: GUEST,KB
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 04:50 AM

How about a helium balloon Bob?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Singers at Sing-arounds
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 05:26 AM

If you know what key suits you with a song and you want a musical accompaniment, tell people. And that can help yiou find the right pitch as well, so you don't run out of notes half way through.

Using a key which is easy to play in is a good idea - D or G for ecample, rather than A-flat. But so far as fretted instruments go, that's what capos are for. Other singers should be able to adjust to sing harmonies, however low or deep your voice is.

I imagine this varies, and it might be different in North Carolina for all I know - but in my experience a lot of people prefer singing a lot of songs without accompaniment, and nobody thinks that is overly precious, and instrumentalists don't feel put out. It's a chance for a drink anyway.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Singers at Sing-arounds
From: Brían
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 07:29 AM

I think the suggestions so far have been very good. I have never regretted the modest amount of money I invested in a pitch pipe. When I practice at home I use it to find the best key to sing a song. When I'm at a singaround, I often ask the musicians for a chord or note to start. If they feel comfortable, they join along. I don't fel uncomfortable if they don't.

Brían

Subject: RE: Folklore: Singers at Sing-arounds
From: Jeri
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 08:10 AM

I try to figure out what key I sing in, or what range of keys I CAN sing a song in at home, so I can shift to a lower key if my voice is tired.

I write it down on a little list, since I can't always remember what key I do what song in. Sometimes, I even manage to remember to bring my list! I also write down what note I start on if it's different than the tonic ('do').

Pitch pipes work well. At a session, you've got a bunch of virtual pitch pipes available. "Can somebody give me an A?"

Tell the instrument players what key you're singing in. In my experience, doing this is equivalent to an invitation to play. Decent instrumentalists will find the chords. Better instrumentalists will find the chords without being told the key. To some extent, they'll be able to anticipate chords, so I'd just start singing the song and let them work it out as they go.

If you really have no way of figuring out what key you do a song in before the sing-around, find one that works, hum a bit of it, ask the instrumentalists what key it's in and write it down later. 'T'will save time in the future.

You DO have a good voice!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Singers at Sing-arounds
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 08:31 AM

my problem is I not only don't I know what key I do a song in - but it frequently isn't the same twice!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Singers at Sing-arounds
From: kendall
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 08:42 AM

Chances are that everyone there is singing or playing in whatever way suites them, and they are not overly concerned with how others may adjust. So, do what you do, do it your way, and be just like them. Unaccompanied singing is more traditional than using all those instruments anyway.
There are times when I have performed in a place that had a house band, and I just tell them, "This one is full of minors so you may want to take a break." Only a fool or an egotist wouldn't get the message.
If someone is singing or playing a piece that I don't know, I simply put the guitar down and listen. What a concept!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Singers at Sing-arounds
From: jacqui.c
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 08:58 AM

MMario - I frequently have the same problem and sometimes cause myself problems when I start a song too high and struggle to get the top notes. that is when it's useful to know the key and have someone sound it for you!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Singers at Sing-arounds
From: Brían
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 09:15 AM

I rather enjoy MMario's studied unacademic approach:-)

Brían

Subject: RE: Folklore: Singers at Sing-arounds
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 09:18 AM

Brian - it's an ongoing problem - I have never been able to learn to identify a note by name -neither when I sing nor when I hear one - though I CAN usually match a note if one is sounded for me...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Singers at Sing-arounds
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 09:22 AM

if you sing well (this mostly means that you know the tune), and at a 'regular' pace, and do songs that are known to the group, and don't mind folks playing along, ask at the beginning for a 'C' or 'A'..etc....but if you sing 'freely' and in odd keys, best make it clear that trying to accompany you might be a problem.

Out local circle has quite a number of singers who use NO instrument, or often sing without one, and I would MUCH rather hear them unaccompanied than to watch the struggle that often results when several instrumentalists spend ¾ of the song figuring out what what to do. "Sweet Betsy from Pike" is easy to play along with, "Molly Brannigan" isn't unless they have practiced, or are very quick.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Singers at Sing-arounds
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 09:27 AM

that's my other problem - I sing so much alone (usually in the car) and have such a bad sense of rythm that anyone trying to match me either throws me off of I throw them off...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Singers at Sing-arounds
From: GUEST,reggie miles
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 10:05 AM

Okay a little tread creep here boys and girls. It's just that Janie's coments seem to strike a chord in me that I've felt having attended even just a few of these events. This whole idea of sing arounds, formal or informal gatherings where folks get together with instruments and voices can be a wash with uncertainties. As mentioned above, musicians who glare at you for singing in a key uncomfortable to them, or one they are not used to playing in, or play when they are not wanted. I've read previous threads on the subject and no two events seem to be quite the same (thankfully) with variations in what was and was not acceptable. I think most folks attend those that maybe closest to their vicinity as I have and I've been surprised by the level of angst that can surround these gatherings. I guess in my inexperience I assumed that the sharing of music was a suppose to be a joyful, fun filled event and not fraught with so many rules, don'ts and uncomfortable posturing as to make folks cringe. Fortunately I have not been to so many of these events as to be too sensitive to those who may have become annoyed by my presence or behavior yet. Dull witted about those things as I am. The few I have attended were well established events that seemed to have an unspoken set of expectations for behavior and decorum as well as a sort of pecking order of personalities. Of course being relatively new at all of this I'm fairly certain I unintentionally stepped on a few toes by playing along with singers when and where I wasn't suppose to or perhaps playing the wrong type of song at the wrong event. Maybe that old saying is appropriate here, you can't please everybody.

I found myself feeling kind of isolated at those events, being among a group of folks who all seem to know each other quite well having played together for years and who had found niches that they'd settled into within the gathering. I suppose the solution might be to just persist and try to find a vacant location within the existing structure of things. Let's see, I can adapt, migrate or... what's that third alternative?

I went to one campfire at a festival in Oregon where I very patiently waited till I figured it was my turn to sing. The seats were crowded with more than fifty singers and players when I first approached the group but by the time I had given everyone before me their chance, and figured it was my turn, there was only me and this other fellow left. Everyone else, one by one, had drifted off to bed I guess. I sang my song that I had waited so long to sing and then was too tired (it was late) to continue. There I was, patient till the last and that's what it got me. Maybe I should have been more pushy, at least that way I could have had a chance to sing sooner and had more of an audience. Ah well, I suppose somebody had to be last. ;)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Singers at Sing-arounds
From: Leadfingers
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 10:27 AM

I am one of the musicians who likes to play along with EVERYBODY at a
singaround,but do NOT play at any thing like full volume with singers,
especially unaccompanied ones.A lot of unaccompanied songs dont need any instrumental backing,and a lot of singers and players I know prefer NOT to have others joining in.If I get a dirty look from a singer I SHUT UP !

Subject: RE: Folklore: Singers at Sing-arounds
From: Alaska Mike
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 10:28 AM

I have performed solo for so long that I naturally chose keys for my songs that fit my voice best. I wrote a couple songs in G#m which is quite easy for me to play with a capo up the neck of my guitar. But when I recorded the songs, I had to locate a truly talented fiddle player who could play in my odd keys.

On the rare occasions when I can get involved in a sing-around here, I find that my original songs many times are unknown to the circle and with chord changes that do not lend themselves to others playing along easily. When this happens, I simply perform the song by myself.

I am always happy to have other musicians and singers join in, but I don't hesitate to sing alone if necessary. Each person has a unique "something" to offer in a group sing and I find it just as much fun to listen quietly for that uniqueness in others as it is to join in.

Best wishes,
Mike

Subject: RE: Folklore: Singers at Sing-arounds
From: GUEST,ClaireBear
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 11:54 AM

I sing both accompanied and un. I'm lucky in that I have a group of musicians I used to be in a band with who come to the same sings that I do and who will assert the key they know I prefer to sing in.

But here's the thing. I have a very good voice. I practice a lot. I pitch songs not at whim, but because the key I'm using the the one key that best enables the nuances of my voice to create the sound I want to create. If someone wants me to re-pitch, it's not that I wouldn't if I could; I CAN'T and use my "instrument" right. It would be, to use a musical analogy, like playing a harp whose strings were closer together than the one I usually play...yeah, I could probably hit the basic notes of a tune, but I couldn't do the decorations and flourishes that make my playing MINE.

There's something else, too. It's hard to explain, but some singers have a knack for implying a chord while singing one note. (Listen to June Tabor singing unaccompanied for a good example of this.) I can sing, say, an E and there are undertones -- colors -- that creep in identifying the underlying chord as an A minor, an E minor...this is complicated by the fact that I think in harmony and REALLY like to use rather unusual chords for emphasis. So if I'm singing that E and trying to imply an A minor seventh, but (since this hypothetical song is in C) a nearby guitarist opts to play the C chord that most folks would use at that particular place in the song, it sounds just dreadful.

So at a singaround, to forestall that guitarist I might say "This song sounds best unaccompanied" BEFORE I sing that type of song. If it doesn't seem to be the kind of gathering where that'll work, I'll forget about singing the sort of song I've just told you about, and launch into something accompaniable instead (or do a sea chantey, which usually isn't guitar fodder).

Cheers, Claire

Subject: RE: Folklore: Singers at Sing-arounds
From: Janie
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 12:25 PM

A lot of good information and feedback here.

Although I do not play an instrument anymore, I use "non-musician" to signify I lack much musical knowledge or experience, am having to redevelop my ear for harmonies, and when I get really nervous (like when there ARE good and demanding musicians in the gathering) I may completely blank on the words or go off key. I want to improve my musicianship-- for my own satisfaction-- and because there are songs I want to sing that I want acompanied. I want to get good enough that I won't feel like a beggar to ask an instrumentalist and or other singers to work up some tunes with me.

One of the reasons I never got very good on guitar was I got too nervous to tolerate playing with other people, and missed out on the challenges and learning opportunities that experience brings. Getting older has helped the "stage-fright" a good bit, but not entirely. I have confidence that my voice is "pleasing and entertaining" but very little confidence in my musicianship. Making music with others is what I need to improve my musicianship.

Keep those cards and letters comin' in, folks!

Janie

Subject: RE: Folklore: Singers at Sing-arounds
From: Janie
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 01:07 PM

Oops. Don't want anyone to think from the above post that I think a sing-around is the place to work up a song.

ClaireBear (and MMario) you really struck a chord with me---the difference being you ARE a musician. Because I am not, I often don't feel comfortable asserting my key.

Janie

Subject: RE: Folklore: Singers at Sing-arounds
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 01:28 PM

Singarounds can be lots of fun, if The Cloth-Ear Sub-Committee stays away....

Robin

Subject: RE: Folklore: Singers at Sing-arounds
From: Grab
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 01:28 PM

As one who often has to fill in guitar accompaniment for a non-singing wife on short notice (ie. she stands up, does her intro, gets ready to sing, then calls across to the bar to get me to come and strum something ;) I think the only important thing is that if you say you're going to sing in a key, make damn sure you do sing in that key! :-) If you ask for accompaniment, tell them the key, and get your "tuning note", it's a major kick in the teeth for the strummer if you then start in a different key.

You can pick any key you like though. If an "odd" key suits you best, you're probably going to be accompanied by a guitarist rather than an accordian. In fact, "odd" keys can be the best way of quietly discouraging over-energetic squeezeboxes and out-of-tune fiddles...

Graham.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Singers at Sing-arounds
From: Leadfingers
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 01:29 PM

The best way to improve ANY musical rendition is to Sing/Play as often as possible,and doing it in public is even better.The more you go out to Sing/Play the better you are bound to get . Just keep at it.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Singers at Sing-arounds
From: GUEST,Leah
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 01:53 PM

Hi Janie. I think a lot of folk singers struggle with this. I play fiddle, and guitar, and come out of a bluegrass tradition which is heavily focused on one's instrumental prowess. But I also LOVE to sing a cappella. I love the old ballads and think a solo voice can be so thrillingly beautiful, like a bird in the woods! And you also have the power to move listeners in a unique way.

There are lots of instrumentalists who secretly (and not so secretly) have little resepct for singers because we all to often haven't done our necessary homework.

Put a songbook together with your tunes and keys for each tune. Get a friend who plays guitar to help with this. (A bottle of wine and dinner always entices). Make some notes. You might try writing down a line or two about how you want to convey the song, ie. what kind of rhyhtym and general feel you'd like from your accompaniasts. Ask your "guitar slave" (who you've plied with wine and food) if there are any funny chord changes in the tune that you should alert folks in a jam/song circle about. Write those down too. This is where it helps to play some basic guitar yourself. Keep working at it. For a cappela (unaccompanied)tunes, you might tell the circle that "this tune is traditionally sung a cappella" so other musicians realize you are calling upon tradition and not just snubbing them by not inviting them in on the tune.

It takes some time initially to put some of this together, but it will be much appreciated by your accompaniasts and make you a more sympathetic singer.

Leah

Subject: RE: Folklore: Singers at Sing-arounds
From: Sooz
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 02:21 PM

IMHO an unaccompanied song should be just that. However, many songs just don't work without an accompaniment. The trick is to know which is which and enjoy listening to the former!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Singers at Sing-arounds
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 02:49 PM

*grin* sooz says many songs just don't work without an accompaniment

I've always felt the oppisete. MOST songs work just fine without accompaniment

Subject: RE: Folklore: Singers at Sing-arounds
From: Noreen
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 03:22 PM

I agree, MMario.
Some songs that you're used to hearing accompanied have to be done differently without it, but a confident, proficient singer who has a feeling for a song, not only doesn't need accompaniment, but would be hindered by it.

A sensitive and musical accompaniment can add a great deal to the performance of a song, but many singers use an accompaniment as a crutch, and tedious chords strummed unappetisingly on a guitar only detract from a performance- I'd prefer the guitar to be put away in many cases. (Or in its own case!)

Sorry, I'll get off my high horse now, but it's something I feel very strongly about.

Janie, when you sing in public, you are in charge and you can ask for whatever you wish, whether you want others to play with you or not. It is useful to have a key worked out beforehand if you want accompaniment, then everyone knows where they are.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Singers at Sing-arounds
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 03:51 PM

A good way of checking what key is most comfortable for you is to have a chromatic tuner handy - then when you catch yourself singing off guard, you check what the final note in the song is, and with most songs, that'll be the name of the key (mind, it still could be major or minor or in some mode or other.)

One thing that can confuse things is when someone asks for a note to help them start, and the people playing the music assume thats the name of the key the song is going to be sung in, and there's no reason it should be, if what they are after is the first note of the song.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Singers at Sing-arounds
From: JWB
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 04:28 PM

A helpful tool in learning to sing on pitch is to record yourself singing and then listen to it. You most likely can tell when you're listening to someone sing if they're staying on key or not, so you can use this ability to monitor your own practicing.

And there is that "P" word. Just like learning to play an instrument, you need to practice to get good at singing. Practicing is more than just singing the song through: it involves consciously working on hitting the notes you want to hit, when you want to hit them, at the volume you desire, etc., etc. I can promise that June Tabor doesn't just stand up and sing a song without having worked hard on getting it to sound a certain way.

Sing on,

Jerry

Subject: RE: Folklore: Singers at Sing-arounds
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 05:02 PM

A pitching technique that some friends of mine came up with (to use in finding the right key, during practice) was to identify a key with the help of a pitch pipe, sing in it unaccompanied, then double check at the end whether they ended up in the same key. If you drift, then try another key, in the direction of the drift. They found that after a few iterations they'd find the ideal key - the one they could stay in.

If you are singing with accompaniment, you'll (most likely) stay on key alright, but it may not be the best key for your instrument (your voice). You'll have to decide whether the compromise is o.k. or not: what's your priority.

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: Folklore: Singers at Sing-arounds
From: Deckman
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 05:39 PM

To "ClaireBear": I really appreciate your posting. And I understand clearly what you are refering to when you speak of the colors of the voice. Sorta what I refer to as the shadings. Any good instrumentalist, and the VOICE is an instrument, knows how to bring all of his instrument into play. There are few things more annoying than launching into an intential accapello solo and hear some idiot trying to find the right chords on his brand new (out of tune) guitar.

Which brings me to my other point ... communication. Hoots, sing-a-rounds, get togethers, jams, whatever you want to call them, are all about FUN! Getting together with like minded people to enjoy yourselves.

Bride Judy and I had a very large hoot a while ago. We probably had 30 performers here over the course of the day and night. Many times, during that hoot, the air was absolutly ELECTRIC with the good vibes present. Once, after someone had just sung a beautiful accapella ballad, there was that very telling, and sweet silence that follows a good song that is well performed. I looked around the room (woodshop actually), and asked quietly, "Is there anything more wonderful than people willingly sharing their music?" Everyone just silently nodded.

CHEERS, Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: Folklore: Singers at Sing-arounds
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 05:39 PM

Oh but it depends so much on the acoustics of the room where you're singing, the particular song, and the amount of background noise....

I've practised songs in my living room and written down the key or starting note and then tried singing the songs in the same key in a pub or club room and it just doesn't work.

Working out what the range of the song is in advance and checking your highest and lowest notes in the venue before you sing can help.

Kitty

Subject: RE: Folklore: Singers at Sing-arounds
From: Deckman
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 06:34 PM

Kitty ... Yes ... BUT ... If you'll take COMMAND of the room, you can pull it off! Step forward, and with your body posture, presence, attitude, you can command attention and notice. Even if the room acoustics are less than good, you and your voice can say: "Hey there! Shut up! Listen to me! Here's something you need to hear."

Years and years ago, I learned a great trick, it may have been from the late Bob Gibson (one hell of a performer). In the midst of the loudest and most raucus bar or tavern scene, he would simply stand up, look to ceiling, or me, or someone else at the table, and start to sing very, very QUIETLY! It might take 5 or 10 seconds, but always the room would go silent.

As soon as the silence happened, he would slowly turn, while singing, and make eye contact with the people around the room. It was then that he had them in the palm of his hand. It was amazing to observe.

My point is this: You know you'll rarely have the perfect situation. So you must take command of what you've got and just DO IT!

CHEERS, Bob

Subject: RE: Folklore: Singers at Sing-arounds
From: pattyClink
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 09:08 PM

I've always hated those bleating spit-trap pitch pipes. I'm determined to get one of the new electronic ones on a keyring. Any singers use one of those? seems they would be handy for a singer...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Singers at Sing-arounds
From: Janie
Date: 02 Oct 03 - 09:20 PM

*boink* It had never occurred to me that a pitch pipe is a learning tool! I....er....(shuffle, shuffle)....*sigh*

Janie

Subject: RE: Folklore: Singers at Sing-arounds
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 01:16 AM

Deckman

Been there, done that, and I can pull it off. I just wanted to point out that a key that works in a small room at home doesn't necessarily work in the venue where you sing to an audience. And I've been advised, by a friend who teaches singing to children, not to use a pitch pipe but to pitch by instinct.

Kitty

Subject: RE: Folklore: Singers at Sing-arounds
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 01:51 AM

Best trick I have seen of capturing a room:

I have seen Robbie Robinson, a great 4 string banjo player start to play in a noisy room. He was ignored, so started to play softer & softer, then suddenly LOUDER!

All heads spun around, all conversation stopped...
:-)
Robin

Subject: RE: Folklore: Singers at Sing-arounds
From: Melani
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 02:41 AM

When I accompany myself on guitar, I'm afraid I have a tendency to sing in F. I achieve this with a capo, but I have no idea how this works out on other instruments when I am with a group of people, since I don't usually bring my guitar to song sessions. I just assume that any musicians who want to play along will be good enough to figure something out. And of course when I sing unaccompanied, it's not always in the same key every time. I have a pretty low voice, and I am generally more concerned with finding some kind of compromise key that other people will be able to sing in. Please don't ask me what key that is; I have no idea.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Singers at Sing-arounds
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 03:21 AM

Melani---you're not alone in the key of "f". I do a lot of my work self-accompanied on the accordion, and have done so for so long that my playing is almost restricted by my voice range. In other words all those years back I learned to play by ear on the key which suited my own voice for the individual piece. The end result has been a proficiency in the keys of "c", "g", and "f", those being the keys with which I can cover nearly any song I want to sing. In fact I used to drive trained musicians wild by being over fond of "F-sharp"! Not alone on that either---I have heard the Corries use it many a time. I tend NOT to use the "box" in any other key when in concert with other musicians, as I don't feel competent to do so, other than "vamping" on the bass keys on occasion.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Singers at Sing-arounds
From: GUEST,Kedesh
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 06:33 AM

Kitty has an interesting point about pitching by instinct - if we can get beyond the spotlight and the nerves and the worries about whether the instrumentalists will find our key easy or hard, the politics of communicating our desire to be unaccompanied, and so on.

Pitching by instinct needs a very centered, very confident state of mind. Somewhere between 'I can do it' and 'I don't care if I can do it'.

When performing we tend to sing higher than practising, I don't know why this is... At low tenor you are at the bottom of the female range, so there might be quite a step up when you come to sing in public. Still, if you ascertain your note when practising, and bear in mind that you might want to do it a little higher when performing, you'll be aware of the 'ballpark' note.

There was a comment earlier about starting notes versus the key. It's best to be really clear about that - I have a friend who plays whistles and all his notes refer to which whistle he uses, which is quite different from the key the mandolin player plays in (OK, I'm shure there is a relationship between the two, its just that A isn't A, if you get my drift). So "Give me an A" and "This is in G" are two different languages....

Anyway, as has already been pointed out, as a singer you are in no way a 'non-musician'; you have an instrument (your voice) which you are playing quite intuitively - and there are distinct adavantages to this instinctual playing if you can get in the right headspace (and resolve your relationship with those who approach music in a more technical/educated/mathematical fashion)

This is your opportunity to perform, to share your song with the group. If it is to be satisfying for you, you must feel in control of the process. Asking or inviting the instrumentalists to play is a good starting point. First of all: do you want to be accompanied? If you do, it's a case of requesting accompaniment; if you don't, then find a way to communicate gently to the group that you need some space to do this by yourself. But the important thing is being clear in your own mind what it is you want, how you'd like things to sound, before you embark upon the journey. Practise, visualise, dream, plan, think it through.

So - your contribution to the group is to come through loud and clear with a song, an intention, an idea, those 'colours' that others have spoken about; the group will reflect back to you. If they are to be more than an audience, they will contribute the musical creativity that they want to express. So, while you have expectations and plans and dreams, you have to be open to receive the unknown dimension of the other players that will create this unique event - all together the special x-factor happens! (we hope)

You are the leader, but also the facilitator, conductor. This is your song that you're sharing with the group, if you state your intentions clearly and listen carefully to their response you will have succeeded in spreading your interpretation of the song.

Knowlege is useful, innocence can be very handy too. If you can unconcern yourself with keys and capos, and tune into the room and the people (rather than the bits of wood they brandish) you use your musical innocence to advantage because you can listen to your intuition without it being 'shouted down' with logical sevenths and no-you-can't-do-that's.

These individual variants of songs that you've developed over years of singing them are important, and this is what you have to share with them; to impart your interpretation of the song. The whole point of this is that you have your unique perspective on the trad song; the instrumentalist must be sensitive to you, not vice versa. There may be a standard way of playing something, but it's your spin on it that's being listened to this time. If you can identify some particular tricks of your version that might trip up an unsuspecting accomanist then it's only fair that you communicate this - you work that out by the previously-suggested ruse of feeding and watering a willing slave....

in conclusion...know yourself really well before you attempt to explain yourself to others. knowlege is useful, but innocence and intuition combined with self-confidence are all the tools you need to communicate your song to others.

Ugh, did I say that?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Singers at Sing-arounds
From: kendall
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 08:09 AM

When it's your turn, you have the floor. Do it your way.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Singers at Sing-arounds
From: Janie
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 08:34 AM

Kedesh,

Yes you did say it. And I thank you for it.

Kendall,

Spoken like a true captain:>)

Janie

Subject: RE: Folklore: Singers at Sing-arounds
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 09:50 AM

Good Horseshoe players pitch by instinct.

The key of a whistle needed for a particular tune key, varies on the basis of what postiion on the whixtle you are playing in, and what mode (we had a big discussion on that a few weeks ago!) you are playing relative to the base key of the whistle...

eg to play in E Minor, use a D whistle (funny about a lot of tad irish music - it's in E minor or D Major or G Major or the other related keys...)

Also some tunes in G are played on a D whistle, the tune runs from the middle, round the end, and up to the next G. This allows a drop note to the D below the tonic. Some tunes that have a note below the bottom note of the whistle key, you can usually fake this by playing the 2nd - eg, D whistle - tune runs to C# below, use E ...

And not every tune starts or even finishes (although that is rarer) on the tonic note - some players think it is cute to modulate the last chord to some relative minor, instead of the major...

Robin

Subject: RE: Folklore: Singers at Sing-arounds
From: VIN
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 10:08 AM

I think i need a 'tonic' after reading some of these.....but fascinating all the same!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Singers at Sing-arounds
From: GUEST,Kedesh
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 09:14 PM

Yes, funnily enuff I think it was the gin, rather than the tonic last night, that caused me to take eleven paragraphs to say pretty much what Kendall said in 12 words!

K

Subject: RE: Folklore: Singers at Sing-arounds
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 09:31 PM

And if you find that you have pitched the song too high or too low, stop and move down or up. That's a bit harder maybe if there's a bunch of musicians who've leapt in playing in the unsuitable key, but the singer is the one in the driving seat. It's easier if you're playing an instrument yourself, or if you're singing without any musical accompaniment.

Vin Garbut has a trick of mumbling through the tune just before he starts singing, to check he can hit the high notes and the low notes, and he'll adjust his playing to match. Not a bad idea, if you've the nerve to carry it off. The thing is, voices change from day to day and place to place. Singing in a smoky pub or in a car is different from in your home.