new tune for wild colonial boy

Subject: new tune for wild colonial boy
From: early
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 06:46 PM

hi all I've recently been playing The Wild Colonial Boy to the tune of Spancil Hill and have just recorded it. Anyone know of a previous version with this tune please?Are am I the only one warped enough to try it?

Subject: RE: new tune for wild colonial boy
From: curmudgeon
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 08:42 PM

Burl Ives recorded a version to the tune of "The Maid of the Sweet Brown Knowe." It can also be sung to "Ghost Riders in the Sky," with the refrain of:
Tooral-aye -aye, Tooral-aye-oh, the wild colonial boy!

Subject: RE: new tune for wild colonial boy
From: Hrothgar
Date: 15 Oct 03 - 03:19 AM

Also to "The White Cockade."

The funny bit is:

"I will fight, but ...
"I will fight, but ...
etc

Subject: RE: new tune for wild colonial boy
From: Snuffy
Date: 15 Oct 03 - 08:27 AM

How about "The Handsome Wild Colonial Female Cabin Boy"

Subject: RE: new tune for wild colonial boy
From: Pied Piper
Date: 15 Oct 03 - 11:12 AM

Ghost Riders in the Sky.
pp

Subject: RE: new tune for wild colonial boy
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 07:45 PM

My favorite rendition of this song is by (no joke) Mick Jagger in his underappreciated film, "Ned Kelly."

Subject: RE: new tune for wild colonial boy
From: Margret RoadKnight
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 07:52 PM

A favourite of the participants at my weekly singing sessions in Brisbane -
"The Wild Colonial Boy" to the tune of "Ghost Riders in the Sky", with the refrain "Coo-ee, Coo-ee, the wild colonial boy"

Subject: RE: new tune for wild colonial boy
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 10:05 PM

G'day all,

I seem to remember the late John Meredith (Australian folk song collector - 1950s - 1990s) saying there were over 30 collected tunes for The Wild Colonial Boy ... so what's a few more?

He also reckoned that the "original" tune was The Wearing of the Green. That could well be so, as Dion Boucicault pinched that Scottish tune for Shaun the Post's song in his 1848 musical play (Arragh na Pogue ... ?) and the tune quickly became identified with Ireland / Rebellion / general dislike of the English ... and, allegedly, the singing, playing or whistling of that tune became a "treasonable offence". This was his suggestion for the plethora of alternative tunes.

There is at least one Australian-collected version of The Wild Colonial Boy to the tune The Wearing of the Green ... and that has quite old words, as shown by the fact that it doesn't mention horses - or "roaming the ranges": Jack Donahue, the bushranger (escaped convict) who was commemorated in the c. 1833 poem by Frank MacNamara ("Frank the Poet") that is the earliest form of this song ... operated on foot - in the area around the outskirts of early Sydney Town. This suggests a version that hasn't been altered much by later variants that developed as people forgot about the original protaganist ... but kept singing of rebellion!

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: new tune for wild colonial boy
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 11:06 PM

The Tulip, written by the Scottish composer and music seller James Oswald (mid 18th century) is generally considered to be the original of the Wearing of the Green tune. The latter song was published as "to the tune of Sae Will We Yet", which is a form of The Tulip.

There appears to be no evidence at all that the tune was ever under any kind of cloud, far less that whistling it was at any time a "treasonable offence"; that would seem to be an old wives' tale on the lines of the equally imaginary (but also widely believed-in) "banning" in the British army of the song McCassery/McCafferty. Quite apart from anything else, Boucicault's song (c. 1864) was widely published by English broadside printers throughout the second half of the 19th century.

Subject: RE: new tune for wild colonial boy
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 17 Oct 03 - 12:30 AM

G'day Malcolm,

" ... and, allegedly, the singing, playing or whistling of that tune became a "treasonable offence". "

You will note the precautionary "allegedly" and "quotes" in my sentence ... but I was making the point that John had given the ban as the reason there were so many other tunes to The Wild Colonial Boy. I suspect that it was more that the sentiments of the song suited the Australian character very well ... and were belted out to whatever tune was handy.

Bill Scott (editor of the Second Penguin Australian Song Book) has remarked (from his mid-20th century perspective) that he never encountered any trace or evidence of such bans ... but he avers that Suda / Sulva Bay (which appears in one or more threads on Mudcat) was banned in Australia, during WW II as being: "contrary to public morale"!

Regards,

Bob

Subject: RE: new tune for wild colonial boy
From: Hrothgar
Date: 17 Oct 03 - 01:17 AM

I tend to agree with Bill that the "treason songs" like Wild Colonial Boy were never actually illegal, Bob - but I have a suspicion that the people who used to sing them were the people that coppers liked to clip under the ear in those less correct times.

Subject: RE: new tune for wild colonial boy
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 17 Oct 03 - 02:37 AM

G'day Hrothgar,

Nice to see you back among the 'catters (if not yet the vertical!). There's been a bit a rash of this sort of rash behaviour ... Margaret Bradford is just up and around after trusting her SO to put up a ladder for her. (Moderately remodelled a few vertebrae ... but she's pretty fit and coping well!)

I agree about the actuality ... and the legalities ... of "bans on treason songs" - but folklore needs us to examine the 'believed' in respect of what is a specialised branch of oral history.

(I seem to remember a recent thread on just this dichotomy between perception and actuality in a recent thread on "No Irish Need Apply". Apparently, it didn't happen, it wasn't said or written, but generations of Irish-Americans will swear to its truth!)

Regards,

Bob

Subject: RE: new tune for wild colonial boy
From: Helen
Date: 25 Dec 18 - 06:32 PM

Reviving an old thread.

I just bought a book called Traditional Slow Airs of Ireland By Tomas O'Canainn

It also had two CD's of the music, so I was listening to the first CD and then a tune came on and I was racking my old brain to work out what it was.

On the CD it is named as Taimse ar an mBaile Seo (I am in this Town). Finally, at 4am this morning I woke up with the tune of The Wild Colonial Boy in my head.

Reading this thread, I now know that the song has been put to a number of tunes, but this tune is the one I have heard for the song.

Here is a version of Táimse Ar an mBaile Seo by Ceoltóirí Chualann

The WCB song is usually sung at a slightly faster tempo.

Is this tune the same as any of the tunes mentioned above?

The serious tunes, I mean, not Ghost Riders in the Sky - thanks Pied Piper and Margret RoadKnight!! LOL


The bad news is that I still have most of CD1 and all of CD2 to listen to, so I might be posting a lot of questions or comments on Mudcat about a variety of Irish airs.

Subject: RE: new tune for wild colonial boy
From: GUEST,Ebor Fiddler
Date: 27 Dec 18 - 02:07 PM

I sing the tune I got from Bert Lloyd on his Australian songs Topic LP, but nobody else seems to know it!

Subject: RE: new tune for wild colonial boy
From: Lighter
Date: 27 Dec 18 - 04:31 PM

Helen, I've listened to YouTube, and the tunes are close enough to be called the "same" in the context of tradition.   In other words, anyone can hear the similarity. Thanks so much for sharing your discovery.

I imagine that WCB - whatever its original tune - was sung in an earlier time at a much slower tempo than it is today.

The Clancy Bros. popularized it a rollicking pace around 1961.

It's sung more slowly in the movie "The Quiet Man" (1952).

Can anybody translate the Irish lyrics of "Taimse ar an mBaile Seo"?

PS: As I posted on another thread ten (!) years ago:

"While perhaps recognizable as a relative of 'The Wearing of the Green,' Oswald's 'Tulip' doesn't sound to me like anything that could reasonably be called a "version" of it. That's both surprising and disappointing, as Oswald's melody is sometimes referred to as the 'earliest printing' of the standard tune."

Subject: RE: new tune for wild colonial boy
From: Helen
Date: 27 Dec 18 - 06:27 PM

Lighter, my only access to translation is the Google translator, which I guess we'd have to take with grain of salt, but it comes up with "I look at this house" but the translation given in the book of Irish tunes is "I am in this town".

Subject: RE: new tune for wild colonial boy
From: Lighter
Date: 27 Dec 18 - 08:33 PM

A more distant relative of the familiar Clancy Bros.-Tommy Makem tune is used for "The Bonny Laboring Boy":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7cl1s0nqTo

Subject: RE: new tune for wild colonial boy
From: beachcomber
Date: 28 Dec 18 - 02:35 PM

My two favourite versions are (from recordings)

(a) by Ian Campbell and the Group
(b) by Steve Benbow with Chorus.

Subject: RE: new tune for wild colonial boy
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Dec 18 - 10:20 AM

IF MY MEMORY SERVES ME RIOGHT THERE ARE AT LEAST A COUPLE OF TUNES IN THE PENGUIN AUSTRASLIAN FOLKSONGBOOK

Subject: RE: new tune for wild colonial boy
From: Reinhard
Date: 31 Dec 18 - 11:04 AM

Your caps lock key is jammed again, Dick?

It was already noted in this thread 15 years ago that there were over 30 collected tunes for The Wild Colonial Boy.

Subject: RE: new tune for wild colonial boy
From: Lighter
Date: 31 Dec 18 - 11:43 AM

If memory serves (ha), there are at least *two* tunes heard in "Ned Kelly."

One is "Paddy West," but the other I didn't recognize.

Can anyone supply it?

Subject: RE: new tune for wild colonial boy
From: Helen
Date: 31 Dec 18 - 01:53 PM

Ebor Fiddler (Ebor as in Ebor Falls?) I just listened to a version of WCB sung by A.L. Lloyd and then to a version of The Handsome Cabin Boy performed by A.L. Lloyd and Ewan McColl. They appear to be sung to the same tune, which I think is the one you are referring to.

There is a bit of similarity to the Taimse ar an mBaile Seo tune but I confess I like the Taimse tune better.

Sorry, Lighter, I just re-read the thread and realised you were asking for the translation of the lyrics and not just the title. Asleep at the wheel and a danger to self and others - that's me. This hot humid weather that we have been having in east coast Oz is making it difficult to sleep.

It's a long, long time since I saw the Ned Kelly film. I'll need a refresher on that, so I'll see if I can find a video or audio link.

Subject: RE: new tune for wild colonial boy
From: Helen
Date: 31 Dec 18 - 02:05 PM

Here's one clip from the movie
Ned Kelly (4/12) - Wild Colonial Boy (1970) HD

Irish lyrics of:

Táimse ar an mbaile seo (I am in the village)

That page offers a machine translation into English. Not a good idea, I reckon, judging by the output. Maybe we could start a Mudcat Tavern karaoke night where people sing machine translations of classic songs. Funny! But, I digress.

Is táimse ar an mbaile seo le bliain agus trí lá,
Is dá mbeadh a fhios ag mo mhuintir air, ní chodlóidís go sámh,
Dochtúirí na Fraince ní leigheasfaidís mo ghearán,
Go dtiocfaidh péarla an chúil chraobhaigh is go mbéarfaidh sí ar mo láimh.

Dé Domhnaigh, Dé Domhnaigh is ea deineadh mise a chreach
Do ceanglaíodh mo stóirín, gan orlach dem chead,
Dá mbeinnse suite i gcúinne an tí agus grá mo chroí le m’ais,
Is nach gleoite deas mar a sheolfaimis na dúthaigh i bhfad amach.

Is tá mo mhuintir de shíor á rá go gcaithfidh mé dul anonn,
Ach iarraimse ar Mhuire is a Íosa nach bhfaighidh siad bád ná long,
Dá mbeinnse amuigh ins an oíche faoi dhuilliúr ghlas na gcrann,
Ó is a Dhia dhílís, nárbh aoibhinn dom is grá mo chroí a bheith ann.

Is dá mbeadh boiscín snaoise agam do dhéanfainn sult is greann,
Nó pípín fhada dhíreach is tobac le cur ina ceann.
Neilí Bhán ar leaba liom is piliúr faoina ceann,
Is go n-éalódh lucht na mbuataisí lena cúilín ghrámhar donn.

Is Neilí, ó, le m’anam tú agus Neilí, ó, le mo chroí,
An dtiocfása liomsa go bun an ghleanntáin fraoigh?
Do thabharfainn radharc ar chuanta dhuit is ar bhailte móra groí,
Is cead a bheith i gcóistí agat ar bhóthar leis an Rí.

Subject: RE: new tune for wild colonial boy
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Dec 18 - 02:11 PM

Reimhard, you win the 2018 prize for being a Smart Alec, congratulations

Subject: RE: new tune for wild colonial boy
From: GUEST,Modette
Date: 31 Dec 18 - 02:16 PM

Get your eyes tested, Mr. Sandman.

Subject: RE: new tune for wild colonial boy
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Dec 18 - 02:23 PM

Modette ,I know exactly who you are , you have an agenda and appear to have a long term vendetta,, the rough guides are not such good sellers these days are they?

Subject: RE: new tune for wild colonial boy
From: Lighter
Date: 31 Dec 18 - 03:24 PM

Thanks, Helen!

"If I had to I would caddy snuff thrill comedy,
Or pípín tobacco is long straight to his head."

Machine poetry? Very postmodern.

The video features the tune I ID'd as "Paddy West," but lines 1 and 4 are different. They sound familiar, but I can't place them.

I seem to recall another scene, possibly on a front porch, when somebody else sings the first stanza to a second tune. But perhaps the difference I just mentioned fooled me. I haven't seen the movie in at least 20 years.

The full credits given at IMDb list Shel Silverstein (composer of "The Unicorn" and much else) as reponsible for the film's "Music."

What, if anything, that has to do with the tune(s) of "WCB," I can't say.

The Lloyd-MacColl tune, though very nice, isn't one I associate with WCB. It carries other words as well - I think.

As an example of the "folk process," I heard a local harpist here in Tennessee in 2009 play the Lloyd-MacColl tune exactly. She called it "The Handsome *Galway* Boy."

Subject: RE: new tune for wild colonial boy
From: Helen
Date: 31 Dec 18 - 04:04 PM

Lighter, funnily enough when I was racking (oops - should it be racking or wracking?) my brains trying to think of the tune name a line with "Galway Boy" kept popping into my head but I thought I was confusing it with another song. I might have heard song that somewhere.

I just looked at some of the music books I have. A Bushwackers book shows the tune similar to the Taimse tune. The Folk Songs of Australia by John Meredith et al, books 1 & 2 have a few versions. I'll have to play them to compare them. I thought that I had seen a website some years ago with the music notation of the tunes from the two books and a playable audio file for each. I'll have to do some more brain (w)racking to remember where I saw that.

The thing to note about the Meredith books is that he travelled around and talked to musicians and singers in rural Australia and recorded a large number of songs and tunes from them. The resulting books are an interesting record of the folk process in action. Some of the musicians and singers may have only heard someone else perform the song once or a few times and then they went back to perform it themselves, relying on their memory of what they had heard. This is before recording and communications technology became commonplace.

I think, also, that another common method for spreading poems was to have them printed in newspapers. If a musician liked the poem they could fit it to a tune that they knew, which may explain the multitude of tunes used for some songs.

Subject: RE: new tune for wild colonial boy
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Jan 19 - 05:20 AM

The Folk Songs of Australia by John Meredith et al, books 1 & 2 have a few versions."
these were the two tunes that i was also referring to, they can be found if my memory serves me right in the penguin australian folk song book.

Subject: RE: new tune for wild colonial boy
From: Lighter
Date: 01 Jan 19 - 02:03 PM

> another common method for spreading poems was to have them printed in newspapers

The earliest ref. I can find at the moment to "WCB" is just a note in the Bacchus Marsh Express, July 20, 1878 mentioning it was sung at an entertainment at the State School by "Mr. E. Burns."

The following year, another paper mentioned that the WCB had been "immortalised" in song, and that "Jack Dowling was his name." (St, George Standard, July 20, 1879).

Newspaper reports of 1880-81 specifically relate the WCB of the song to Ned Kelly. Sorry, no texts given.

A partial text from The Australasian (Melbourne) Oct. 24, 1891:


At the early age of fifteen years
He left his father's home,
And through Australia's sunny climes
Bushranging for to roam.
He robbed the lordly squatters,
And their flocks he did destroy,
And a terror to Australia
Was the Wild Colonial Boy.

. . .

"Surrender now, Jack Dowling:
You see there's three to one.
Surrender in the queen's name,
You outlawed plundering son."
Jack drew a pistol from his belt
And waved the little a toy,
"I fight, but not surrender,"
Cried the Wild Colonial Boy.

He fired at Trooper Kelly,
And brought him to the ground,
Receiving one from Davis,
Which caused a fatal wound.
And bathing in his crimson
And fighting with FitzRoy,
That was the way they captured
The Wild Colonial Boy.

"Literature" (London, Oct. 28, 1899) says that the song goes to a "melancholy tune," and offers one stanza :

Then come all you brave lads that roam the mountains wide,
Together we will plunder, together we will ride;
We'll rob the wealthy squatters, their flocks we will destroy,
And we'll make the peelers dread us, says the Wild Colonial Boy.

The first stanza only appears in "The Warrigal's Well," by Donald MacDonald and John F. Edgar (1901):

“Oh it’s of a wild colonial boy,
Jack Dowlan was his name,
Of poor but honest parients [sic].
Brung up in Castlemaine.”

The oldest full text available seems to be the one in Banjo Patterson's "Old Bush Songs" (1905).

From https://www.bluemountainshistory.com/historyinsong.html :

"The Australian Dictionary of Biography has biographies of Jack Donahoe and Jack Doolan. Doolan was born in Castlemaine Victoria in 1856 and became a minor bushranger. Jack Donahoe was born in Dublin. Neither could have commenced their wild career in 1861."

There seems to have been a broadside publication of "WCB" in the 1880s, but I haven't found it online.

Subject: RE: new tune for wild colonial boy
From: Lighter
Date: 01 Jan 19 - 02:22 PM

And here's the ADB biography of Jack Doolan, "born in Castlemaine":

http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/doolan-john-12889

Subject: RE: new tune for wild colonial boy
From: Lighter
Date: 01 Jan 19 - 04:56 PM

For various "new" tunes listen to these snippets at Amazon.com "digital music." I may have missed a couple:

Lionel Long
The Limeliters
Smoky Dawson (on some clips he recites, but sings on others)
Nancy Kerr & James Fagan
Bright Season
Two Old Friends
The Galliards
Calmus Ensemble
The Hawking Brothers

And Mark R. Kent uses ... "Roddy McCorley"!

Subject: RE: new tune for wild colonial boy
From: Helen
Date: 01 Jan 19 - 09:24 PM

Wow, Lighter! That's a load of information to go through!

I played the eight tunes in John Meredith's two books and none of them were exactly the same, although some were similar to each other. None of them are the tune used by Makem & Clancy or The Bushwackers which is the only tune I have heard, as far as I remember.

Sandman, I don't have a copy of the Penguin Australian Folk Song Book so I can't tell you whether those two tunes are the same or similar to the others.

Subject: RE: new tune for wild colonial boy
From: Lighter
Date: 01 Jan 19 - 10:11 PM

And if course there's an Amazon snippet of A. L. Lloyd singing his tune as well.

How many of the "new" tunes were/are actually traditional is another story.