Backup Fiddle Playing

Subject: Backup Fiddle Playing
From: Cruiser
Date: 21 Oct 03 - 11:12 PM

Can any of you back-up fiddlers explain how best to learn this technique? I have several books and the excellent video "Fiddle Breaks & Back-up" by the great bluegrass fiddler Kenny Baker. I read music but the back-up phrases are never transcribed. I know that improvisation is the probably the key to back-up playing but how is that best learned? I basically understand the circle-of-fifths and other music theory. I can learn many tunes by ear but always do best when that is coupled with the notes on a staff.

Cruiser

Subject: RE: Backup Fiddle Playing
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 09:40 AM

Well, there seem to be different backups for different styles. Seems to me the best start would be to do a lot of careful listening, and watch other players, so you can start hearing your part in your head. Don't limit your listening to what the fiddler is doing-- listen to all the parts, because it may be that what the guitar player is doing as a turnaround or fill might suggest a direction. Or the part you might play might be played, on a recording, by any number of other instruments, especially if the lineup did not include a fiddle.

It may also be that the person playing lead can suggest what they might like you to provide. I know that in our gospel band, which I sort of quarterback, developing a common language was required first before Hardi could add what I was hearing in my head.

A good model for hearing and finding good side parts in trad tunes is Barry Taylor's MIDI tunebook, online. His arrangements of trad tunes are wonderful, and the parts vary from full harmony accompaniment to very spare, restrained ornaments. You can open and print these with any notation program (MidiNotate & Noteworthy Composer are simple), listen to the parts together or separately, and find a line that suits you or improvise around the melody, and so forth. Speed is adjustable so that you can noodle around to what works, before the tune has flashed by and ended. You can also experiment with DT and Mudcat MIDI tunes.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Backup Fiddle Playing
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 09:49 AM

Below is some info from a "how to jam" piece, about backup playing in bluegrass jams.

~S~

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Bluegrass songs are typically divided into a series of breaks, verses, and choruses. A typical bluegrass song might be structured as follows: (1) An initial Break (often call the Kickoff), (2) Verse, (3) Chorus, (4) Break, (5) Verse, (6) Chorus, (7) Break, (8) Verse, (9) Chorus, (10) Break, (11) Chorus In each of the individual units, there is a lead activity and a backup activity. In a break, usually one of the individual instruments takes the lead while the rest of the instruments back him (or her) up. In the verse, usually there is one lead singer. In the chorus, there are usually one, two, three or four singers singing one, two, three of four part harmony. In both the verse and the chorus, there is instrumental backup music. The most important rule in bluegrass jamming is IF YOU ARE NOT LEADING, YOUR JOB IS TO DO BACKUP IN SUCH A WAY AS TO MAKE THE LEAD SOUND AS GOOD AS POSSIBLE. A point often missed by novices is that backup in a jam session is usually more important then the lead. You can make really good music with a good backup and a modest lead, but without a good backup, you cannot make good music no matter how good the lead is. Since backup is so important, I am going to talk about it first.

Backup

The foundation of bluegrass backup (often called rhythm) is three instruments: the bass, the guitar, and the mandolin. The basic bluegrass rhythm pattern is a boom-chick boom-chick pattern. The boom here is often called the beat, and the chick is called the back-beat. A simple bluegrass bass pattern is simply to play the tonic of the chord on the beat and the 5th of the chord on the backbeat. The guitar typically plays a single bass note on the beat (boom) and brushes the strings of the chord on the backbeat (chick). The mandolin plays either not at all or a very light chord stroke on the beat (boom), and then a sharp chop on the backbeat (chick). A mandolin chop is performed by striking the strings of the chord quite hard, but then almost instantly damping the strings to stop the sound. The result is a short, percussive sound which is just barely identifiable as the chord.

When done correctly, the effect of a good rhythm section is remarkable. On the beat (boom), you get the tonic from the bass fiddle and the bass strings of the guitar, setting the pace for the music. Then, immediately following, you get the dramatic counter-sound of the backbeat (chick) with the roar of the full guitar chord accented by the percussive chop of the mandolin.

So what about the other instruments? Well, potentially the most wonderful and certainly the most dangerous backup instrument is the banjo. One basic form of banjo backup is vamping. This is basically just a banjo version of the mandolin chop, and it is used pretty much in the same way -- that is to punch up the backbeat. It is used in this way with the mandolin to backup other leads, and it is used to backup the mandolin when the mandolin has the lead. The other form of backup for the banjo is to use the same syncopated three-finger rolls which are used for a banjo lead. This can be very effective, but it can also be terrible when it conflicts or competes with other instrument or vocal leads. The best rule of thumb here is that, if you are a banjo player, go out of your way to learn syncopated backup techniques, and then, when you really know them well, use them very selectively and occasionally. The reason for this is that the banjo is such a loud, in-your-face instrument that it can interfere with, rather than backing up, the lead.

Almost equal in power and danger to the banjo is the fiddle. Fiddle backup is generally done by playing short tasteful riffs, usually referred to as "fills", that compliment the vocals as a breath is taken between lines or at the end of a verse or chorus. Next time you listen to your favorite bluegrass album listen to how the backup instruments come in and out. Something to keep in mind is that it's often said "It's more important to know when not to play than when to play". Another way to put it is, "sometimes less is more". This idea of playing during the "breaths" can also apply to playing fills between the lines of another instrument's lead break.

Other advanced techniques that compliment another instrument's lead break are playing a harmony (the same way that a vocalist sings a harmony) or playing a counter-part lead that contrasts with, but at the same time compliments, the lead. Always remember that these backup techniques should be lower in volume so as to never overpower or take away from another's lead. Also, some fiddle players replicate the mandolin chop or banjo vamp by a sharp abrupt stroke on the strings using the frog end of the bow. If other instruments are already providing the backbeat, then it is not that interesting for the fiddle to provide this element. A fiddle can also add fullness by playing slow moving "string" parts consisting of half or whole notes. This is particularly effective in slower songs.

One final word about loudness. It is really important to adjust the level of the backup to match the level of the lead. Since the level of the lead often changes dramatically during a song, you must change too. A banjo at full cry can be very loud, and you may need to play flat out to blend. On the other hand, a soft voice or a guitar lead may be very soft, and you will need to cut way back. The basic rule is always listen to the music, not just to what you are playing but what the whole jam session is playing, and continuously adjust. The music will sound better, you will enjoy it more, and the other jammers will enjoy you more.



From An Introduction to Bluegrass Jamming by Tom Barnwell, copyright 1997 by the SouthEastern Bluegrass Association. The author would like to extend special thanks to Selwyn Blakely for his valuable input, and to Scott Woody, Mike Flemming and Gerald Hooke for their valuable comments.

Subject: RE: Backup Fiddle Playing
From: Sorcha
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 10:08 AM

You can 'chop' quiet chords, use the 'diationic' scale (kind of skipping every other note), trills, but you just need to listen, listen, listen. Took me about 5 yrs to learn to do this, after I had played lead for almost 40 yrs. I still can't do a real improv harmony.

Subject: RE: Backup Fiddle Playing
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 10:18 AM

And it should be obvious (I think), but apparetnly it isn't-- you must listen to the singer if there is singing going on. Playing the melody, while the singer is singing it, is a real good way to kill a singer, and it's quick. :~) The blending required to keep a backup a backup means blending to, and following, the singer... it's not enough just to blend to and with the other instruments, because if there is a singer, it's a SONG, and in a song, the words come first. I've found that a number of people trained in orchestral or other dot-dependent learning and playing find this very hard to integrate-- there are no dynamics marked, so they want to play, play, play, and you know, I'm the same way when I'm not singing. I KNOW less is more, and I LIKE laying back and doing a minimalist thing, but it's hard to pare the playing down far enough when playing is so much fun!

In our band, I think it took about four years to get the point across that not every note gets played on every instrument at the same time, and that not everyone gets to pick or play the melody while singing is going on! :~) That's why I get an amp, and sometimes they don't :~)

~Susan

Subject: RE: Backup Fiddle Playing
From: JedMarum
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 10:22 AM

don't play all the time! Choose your lines, select those music phrases where the singer is NOT singing - or when you can lay down a complimentary line that does NOT interfere with the singer.

If you will be doing a break, or someone is doing a solo - yuo can build your 'fills' on the melody of that solo. Hopefully, complimentary to that solo (you don;t want to steal the thunder) - maybe a harmony to it, maybe repitition of a small phrase of that solo.

Basically you are trying to compliment and support the melody of the song. Too much playing can take away from the song. Start in the second verse, after the melody is established. Alternate lines. Play short lines. Play some long lines, but do so selectively.

This is an artform unto itself.

Subject: RE: Backup Fiddle Playing
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 10:30 AM

It can also be very hard to get a beginning backup fiddler to take the back beat.... they hear the others playing the beat so they follow. Hardi and I recently spent a stressful but HIGHLY satisfying hour at a park recently hammering this one out. I had to speak the shufflebowing rhythm I wanted from him, as I played the beat on the autoharp. I think it went something like this--

"One shuffle, TWO shuffle, three shuffle, FOUR shuffle...

not:

SHUFFle shuff, SHUFFle shuff, SHUFFle shuff, SHUFFle shuff...

We did this slowly till it clicked, then suddenly he could shuffle and harmonize and so forth at the same time, with each chord change.

~S~

Subject: RE: Backup Fiddle Playing
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 11:18 AM

Going back to about 2000, here are some interesting fiddle threads that might be a help in thinking about backup playing.

~S~

Fiddle tune backup: how to find chords?

Difference Between Fiddle and Violin

learning the fiddle

The fiddle and the blues?

Help: What's it called when the fiddle goes...

Fiddle vibrato techniques

Playing harmonics on the fiddle?

Help: fiddle tune rhythms

recommend good fiddle duet books?

Subject: RE: Backup Fiddle Playing
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 11:21 AM

... and a really old thread:

Fiddle Stuff /licks/links/tricks/help

~S~

Subject: RE: Backup Fiddle Playing
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 11:20 PM

I may not be very qualified to address this question since I basically don't play fiddle--only viola---but I am used to making up harmonies--as I'm sure you know it comes with the territory. Admittedly I can only do it when the song or tune is slow (waltzes are particularly easy to find harmonies in), but there are a few tricks I have found useful.

1) As has been said before, avoid at all costs playing the melody--that adds nothing---unless of course you have the go-ahead for a break.

2) Try to figure out quickly what key the tune is in (or ask before).

3) Don't be afraid of stark open chords.

4)As has been said before, countermelodies are fine, often even welcomed. Try to avoid just 3rds or 6ths, although they have their place.

5) Often the best time to come out of the musical texture is the end of a vocal or melody line, when the singer or melody instrument is pausing. But don't forget to retreat when the next verse starts (or go back to counter-melody)

6) Don't be afraid of roaming up and down your instrument--different octaves (though I lean toward lower harmonies), different rhythms (this is not of course or upbeat bluegrass or upbeat fiddle tunes) while still keeping the underlying rhythm of the song and still ending on a note that fits the chord or the song.

7) Most importantly, trust your ear. If your ear tells you your musical idea is wrong, change immediately. I make wrong guesses often, but then I change, trying to change so fast it sounds like a passing tone.


Have fun!

Subject: RE: Backup Fiddle Playing
From: GUEST,LeahL
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 11:36 PM

A great way to start playing back up is to practice playing double stop chord changes along with your favorite CD's or whatever and then slowly start to break those up into melodic lines in the "holes" between lyrics. This way you are sure to stay anchored chordaly, but also start to hear the spaces in the tune.

Good luck. It's not easy to play good back up.

Subject: RE: Backup Fiddle Playing
From: NicoleC
Date: 23 Oct 03 - 12:11 AM

This was something I was working on before I got sucked into the mega-move and remodel. I was finding it helpful to learn chord theory on a mandolin and ditch the books. Also, playing chord changes against a guitar (or other lead instrument) was helping me get the hang of it, mostly playing long steady notes with the full bow at low volume. Not what you'd want at a jam for most stuff, but it was a good learning tool, I think. On the other hand, no other instrument family can quite pull off those long smooth notes.

Months ago I was trying to figure out backup playing while jamming with musicians FAR superior to myself (since I am no where near ready for a break or anything) and sort of devised a mandolin chop on the fiddle. Apparently, this is nothing new or innovative :) But now that I recognize it, I hear it a lot in bluegrass playing. The bonus about this was that a bad note is quickly gone and forgotten.

Backup is definately harder. The instrument just isn't designed for it, but done well it makes a sweet addition to many tunes.

Subject: RE: Backup Fiddle Playing
From: GUEST,Les B.
Date: 23 Oct 03 - 01:23 PM

What a number of fiddlers around this area do is a simple (once you get the hang of it!) back-beat chop, usually played close to the frog of the bow. I've found it's easier to lay the fingers lightly on the strings and not form any double-stop chords, just a non-tonal "chuck" which covers all chord progressions and keys.

Alternatively, I've seen some fiddlers hold the instrument like a mandolin and pluck a strong back-beat with their fingers, sometimes with a noted tone, sometimes with a muted "chuck".

Subject: RE: Backup Fiddle Playing
From: wysiwyg
Date: 29 Oct 03 - 06:11 PM

Hear and play along with one style at VOICES ACROSS AMERICA.

And no, that's not me and Hardi, tho it gives us hope. :~)

~S~

Subject: RE: Backup Fiddle Playing
From: Cruiser
Date: 30 Oct 03 - 10:30 AM

Interesting Gospel Bluegrass Music WYSIWYG. The mandolinist is very good. This made me realize that I could noodle around trying my breaks and backup licks on the mandolin first and use what I "composed" as my fiddle backup playing. Although I'm fairly new to mandolin playing, the chord progressions, structure, etc. are probably easier to visualize and play on the mando first then transfer that knowledge to the fiddle.

I appreciate the responses.

Subject: RE: Backup Fiddle Playing
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 Oct 03 - 10:44 AM

Lot of other good styles and examples in there too. There are some festivals included, at least the gospel music from them.

What kind of music are you mostly asking about? Backup for oldtime/Celtic/fiddle tunes.... sort of isn't done, as far as I understand.

~S~

Subject: RE: Backup Fiddle Playing
From: Cruiser
Date: 30 Oct 03 - 11:25 AM

The genre varies. I own almost every fiddle video that Homespun Tapes has produced, as well as others including Mel Bay, Ridge Runner, Texas Music And Video, but have not seen a lesson devoted exclusively to fiddle backup playing. I've learned some from the VHS tapes such as Jay Ungar's 'Ashokan Farewell' where long violinistic chords are drawn out and held during the guitar instrumental. I can do that fairly well and understand basic chord playing on the fiddle. What I really want to learn is the "cat and mouse" interaction between the vocalist and the fiddler. Playing like Country and Western backups to honky-tonk songs including Ray Price's 'Crazy Arms' (Tommy Jackson's backup) and 'Frauenlien' (which also has some nice fiddle chord chops) by Bobbby Helms whose fiddler was Paul Warren. Other examples are the John Prine tune 'Paradise' where Stuart Duncan plays backup,and fiddlers like Dale Potter, Benny Martin, Buddy Spicher (violin backup to Linda Rhondstat's 'Long Long Time'). And finally, most of all, the backup playing of the great Hugh Farr of "The Sons Of The Pioneers" So, as you can see, just about any style of backup.

Subject: RE: Backup Fiddle Playing
From: Cruiser
Date: 30 Oct 03 - 11:31 AM

Errata:

That should be 'Fraulein' by Bobby Helms

Subject: RE: Backup Fiddle Playing
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 Oct 03 - 12:02 PM

Then I would say, go for it, since none of these are oldtime or Celtic, where everyone plays the tune itself. See what you're whistling when you listen to these.... record your whistling to it, and then play what you're whistling. It sounds like you need to get out of the videos and so forth and just PLAY. And that you need to find a singer to experiment with. Ask around! It's OK to develop your own style and sound, create the place your sound will fit in. In the sevwral years I've been around here, the most helpful advice seems to have boiled down to this: Listen, then make it your own. Fill your inner tape deck with good models and then let the creative side of your brain make your own music out of it.

Where you located?

~Susan

Subject: RE: Backup Fiddle Playing
From: Cruiser
Date: 30 Oct 03 - 12:56 PM

In a remote area of Arizona, nearest jamming sessions are about 2 hours distant, just several times a year during fiddle contests or when I travel to job symposia. BTW, I am on the Internet using a satellite ISP, the only option available because of my remote location. The duties of my job often require me to camp out in the field and none of my coworkers are musically inclined, so jamming around the campfire is not an option.   In fact, job requirements are such that I have not had a chance to play my fiddles for about a year! Anyone one that tries to play the instrument knows that is a big mistake.

Subject: RE: Backup Fiddle Playing
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 Oct 03 - 01:12 PM

Oh dear. Well, sounds like a tape player you can overdub on is a good place to work out things between what you hear in your mind and what you play. Good luck!

~Susan

Subject: RE: Backup Fiddle Playing
From: wysiwyg
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 09:40 PM

refresh

Subject: RE: Backup Fiddle Playing
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 09:56 PM

just curious how much pre 1920's aMERICAN moutain fiddle/old timey musicians could read music and explain what they were doing in terms of academic music theory..


or how much was just good old fashioned learning by ear and example
from their cultural elders..

.. a bit like punk folk really?


cheers