Same Tune? Drunken Sailor/Oro se do

Subject: RE: Same Tune? Drunken Sailor/Oro se do
From: GUEST,Rev
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 01:34 AM

What's the problem with Drunken Sailor being called a "shanty" (or chantey)? Hugill clearly categorizes it as a stamp and go (not that Hugill is infallible), and cites a version printed in Olmstead's "Incidents of a Whaling Voyage" which contains a tune that is almost identical to the one we know today. Hugill also says that "the air is from a traditional Irish dance, as well as a march tune" but he doesn't say which one, so it could very well be Oro Se Do Bheatha 'Baile. I like the suggestion that the lyric is a misunderstanding of the Gaelic. I wonder how many other cryptic sea song lyrics came about it such a way.

Subject: RE: Same Tune? Drunken Sailor/Oro se do
From: GUEST,Daeoin Arlson
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 12:26 AM

I don't know about where the song oro Se Do Bheatha 'Bhaile originated from, but as for the two being the same tune. I would say no. I am currently learning to play the Irish Whistle and it just happens that both songs are in the book I am using right now.

Subject: RE: Same Tune? Drunken Sailor/Oro se do
From: Pied Piper
Date: 27 Oct 03 - 05:19 AM

This type of tune is of cause very common in the UK bagpipe traditions, including the Northern English 3/2 Hornpipes.
It's a common phenomenon for vocal traditions to be greatly influenced by instrumental scales and intonation, I think that this kind of tune that we might these days, associate with Scotland because of the persistence of the Big Pipes there when they became extinct in the rest of the UK, would have been much more widespread in the 16th and 17th centuries.
The subject of Irish Clan Marches is a fascinating one; I've done quite a bit of musical research in this area. I don't know how accurate the title Clan March is, but from a musical perspective there is a body of Big Pipe tunes definitely separate from the Dance tradition. The March of the King Of Laoise is a good example, a version of this tune is found in Playford's EDM 1657 additional tunes under the title of Washington's March.

TTFN
PP

Subject: RE: Same Tune? Drunken Sailor/Oro se do
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 26 Oct 03 - 07:47 PM

Although Petrie described the tune as "an ancient clan march", that seems to have been wishful thinking on his part, as he gave no evidence and wasn't even able to say what clan it might have belonged to. These vague comments seem with (all too often, unattributed) repetition to have turned into received wisdom: lots of people have heard the rumour, so it must be true. Joyce's statement that it was a wedding march for bringing the bride home seems far more likely, as he actually gave specifics. "The oldest celtic war tune in existence" is going rather a long way over the top in the circumstances, as we don't know how old it is and there doesn't appear to be any particular evidence that it ever had a military use prior to the American Civil War.

More background can be seen at  The Fiddler's Companion:

se do bheatha a bhaile

Subject: RE: Same Tune? Drunken Sailor/Oro se do
From:
Date: 26 Oct 03 - 06:52 PM

I learned recently from a teacher in Co.Mayo in the west of Ireland that he had heard the melody for O Ro Se Do Bheatha Bhaile is the oldest known celtic war tune in existence, that may be..the lyrics were written by Patrick Pearse, teacher, poet, patriot... executed in 1916 for his part as the leader of the Irish Rebellion. I am a professional Irish folksinger, living in So Cal.

Subject: RE: Same Tune? Drunken Sailor/Oro se do
From: Celtaddict
Date: 26 Oct 03 - 05:38 PM

I am fascinated by the idea of "Drunken Sailor" originating from a mondegreen of "Oro Se Do Bheatha Bhaile" and the more I listen the more I think it is conceivable there is something in it. There is certainly abundant evidence of similar treatments, in which a familiar song is "heard" differently by speakers of another language and it ultimately becomes another song, and since the original words are not meaningful, a ripe tune source for parody or other recycling. In Andenes, Norway, there used to be a Norwegian band whose big hit was "Yes, We Have No Bananas" which they learned entirely phonetically with no English in any member of the band. I am told one reason it was so popular was it was easy to make something really silly and rather rude in Norwegian from part of it. I can understand this, having heard Bob Walser sing "Johnson Girls" in Polish, in which the refrain, "Walk around, honey, walk around," sounds very like, "itch your ass, [something] itch your ass."
Of course, when I hear "The Sailor's Way" my brain goes, "Mr. Ed."
("around the Horn and home again, for that's the sailor's way" = "that is of course unless the horse is the famous Mister Ed.")

Subject: RE: Same Tune? Drunken Sailor/Oro se do
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Oct 03 - 08:54 PM

The Gregorian Chant Home Page

Don't knock it till you've tried it!

Subject: RE: Same Tune? Drunken Sailor/Oro se do
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 25 Oct 03 - 07:57 PM

Ah... I see. Not enough Tullamore Dew or Beamish in my case, evidently.

Subject: RE: Same Tune? Drunken Sailor/Oro se do
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 25 Oct 03 - 07:31 PM

Malcolm, I thought you'd met MudGuard ... :-)

Subject: RE: Same Tune? Drunken Sailor/Oro se do
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 25 Oct 03 - 01:27 PM

So far as I can see from a limited grasp of musical theory, all these tunes are simple elaborations on the basic trichord that survives in its bare bones in playground chants and a number of songs associated with seasonal customs. They may be directly related to each other, but that isn't necessary to explain the close resemblance; the musical process involved is elementary. Another example, though a little less close and a little more elaborated, is The Drunken Piper (more especially the "A" part; but the "B" is only a simple development of that).

To propose a direct connection between the words of Oro Se and Drunken Sailor really does seem to be stretching the correspondence beyond plausibility, though it's a novel thought.

Subject: RE: Same Tune? Drunken Sailor/Oro se do
From: Jim McLean
Date: 25 Oct 03 - 11:53 AM

A 'tread'? sorry a thread!

Subject: RE: Same Tune? Drunken Sailor/Oro se do
From: Jim McLean
Date: 25 Oct 03 - 11:52 AM

There was a tread recently about 'Donald where's yer troosers' sung by Andy Stewart which uses the same tune.

Subject: RE: Same Tune? Drunken Sailor/Oro se do
From: MudGuard
Date: 25 Oct 03 - 02:20 AM

Hm. The more I think about it, the more likely the Mondegreen becomes ...

se do is pronounced like shee do - shall do is almost pronounced the same.

bheatha bhaile is pronounced like whatha vailo - almost like with a sailor...

The rest was then filled in to make sense...

Subject: RE: Same Tune? Drunken Sailor/Oro se do
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 25 Oct 03 - 02:16 AM

G'day Mudguard / Gareth,

I often quote WSWDWDS as the absolute basic form of Dorian mode tune ... the underlying no-brainer pattern for the mode. Different treatments of the basic form give interesting results ... such as Oh! Sinner Man, for one example.

In such heartland territory for Dorian mode (as Gregorian mode #1 ... it persists in any place into dark, gloomy, conservative Catholicism ... ) it wouln't surprise me to find Oro Se Do Bheatha Bhaile using that basic framework.

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: Same Tune? Drunken Sailor/Oro se do
From: Gareth
Date: 24 Oct 03 - 07:26 PM

Mudagard, glad to hear from you.

I doubt if WSWDWDS is a complete Mondegreen, as a forebitter, it has/had to many opportunities for satire.

And as a means of conveying a crews disatisfaction, in non mutinoius ways !!!

Gareth

Ps - A gentleman never embarasses a lady, it would be totally improper to coment on the occupants of our local hillside.

Subject: RE: Same Tune? Drunken Sailor/Oro se do
From: MudGuard
Date: 24 Oct 03 - 07:12 PM

Do you think the "What shall we do..." is just one really BIG Mondegreen? ;-)

How are things in EnglandWales? Especially the sheep? ;-)

Subject: RE: Same Tune? Drunken Sailor/Oro se do
From: Gareth
Date: 24 Oct 03 - 07:09 PM

By defenition - The songs sung by sailors, travelled the world.

Note I did not say "shanties" to avoid a grievoius attack by the folk police.

Gareth

Subject: Same Tune? Drunken Sailor/Oro se do
From: MudGuard
Date: 24 Oct 03 - 06:22 PM

Two hours ago at a concert I heard the song "Oro Se Do Bheatha Bhaile".
But before they started singing, they played the tune - and I was thinking of "What shall we do with the drunken sailor?".

Is it really the same tune for both songs? Or was I just confused by Tullamore Dew and Beamish?