Unaccompanied Singing

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singing
From: JohnB
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 10:01 AM

I'm with you on the last bit Joe, I quit going to one place because of the total JERK with a mondolin who joined in on everything, whether he knew it or not. There's nothing worse than trying to sing a tune a capella, against an instrument that continually goes off into different keys.
JohnB

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singing
From: Rowan
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 11:19 PM

Nice to hear that people still think it's good. Thanks Hrothgar!

Cheer, Rowan

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singing
From: Hrothgar
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 07:12 PM

Rowan, I still have and treasure the tape that Pageant released, as well as the LPs by Rumbylowe and Canterbury Fair.

The modern fashion for a capella groups to indulge more in musical gymnastics than in the singing of songs is much to be deplored.

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singing
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 05:03 AM

Gee, I missed this thread the first two times around. I guess my major experience with a cappella singing is with camp songs and
Gregorian chant (and a bit with sea chanteys, but I have no expertise there).

Yeah, sometimes there are guitars at campfires, but I don't really think they fit. Camp songs generally seem to work best unacompanied.

I prefer singing Gregorian chant a cappella, but I've sometimes done it with organ accompaniment, and it can be good - but it's best with a quiet organ using only one or two ranks. A loud organ just doesn't work with chant. We did a chant Sanctus and Agnus Dei for Christmas Eve with a piano accompaniment, and my opinion was that it was a travesty. I did not put myself in good stead with the choir director for expressing my opinion, despite the fact that I was singing chant before she was born. My opinion is that chant should be light and airy, like lace or a snowfall, but people who didn't grow up with chant tend to make it heavy and dirgelike. Oh, and Rita, chant is one kind of singing that sounds better without ornamentation, I think. Ornamented chant is pretentious.

I guess I do most of my singing a cappella, since I'm guitar-challenged. It works quite well for me, although it's always nice to have a great guitarist like DADGBE to sing with. Sometimes it's annoying when a guitarist give me an uninvited accompaniment - it certainly limits what I can do with a song sometimes. It really bugs me when a guitarist starts playing when I'm leading a sea chantey or a round.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singing
From: Rowan
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 10:34 PM

And I've been reminded that Pageant was really a Canberra based group (Mike, Lynne, Libby & Phil lived in Camberra, while Tony lived in Sydney and I lived at Steiglitz in Victoria) that did a lot of singing in Sydney.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singing
From: Col K
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 07:22 PM

100 up.

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singing
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 07:17 PM

mid-evil??....surely you mean....oh, never mind.

I HAVE been at a Southern Baptist service. It was very impressive, but life changing?...not exactly

ummmm...100

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singing
From: GUEST,Dea.Raymond Barber
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 04:33 PM

I don't know much about mid-evil times, but I do know that one form of this metered music was and still is practice in the baptist church. When the deacons would lead those hyms, they sang from their hearts, with sincere praises. It is a moving experience when they get to moaning and groaning mixing those long and short notes ushering in the HOLY SPRIT, IF YOU HAVEN'T BEEN AT A BAPTIST DEVOTIONAL SERVICE,I RECOMEND YOU DO SOON, IT's a life changing experience to hear meter music and see the effect it has on his own.

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singing
From: Rowan
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 05:57 PM

The thread's first question concerned origins of gospel singing in America, about which I know little that I didn't glean from subsesquent postings, but the thread's title got me in. Apart from the obligatory singing in school (accompanied by a piano) and at church (accompanied by an organ), almost all of my singing was with others on bushwalks and around campfires, where no instruments were to be found. Like a vast number of Australian families, my family had a piano; nobody could play it but the bloke next door would often visit and we'd sing the pop songs of our parents' youth. But most of my singing was unaccompanied by instruments and that was the term most widely used.

Even when I got involved with harmony singing in the folk scene, the term "a capella" (or "a cappella; I've been criticised for both spellings and, whenever I see it I always am reminded that Caprella is a genus of shrimp in Victoria) was never used; it was always described as "unaccompanied harmony singing". The three best known Australian groups in the late 60s and 70s (Canterbury Fair in Melbourne, Pageant in Sydney and Rumbylowe in Brisbane) were all described as singing unaccompanied harmonies. Considering that Pageant started with a repertoire that was mostly carols, the lack of use of "a cappella" to describe them now seems interesting.

My recollection is that "a cappella" (or "a capella") didn't enter popular usage for folk music in Australia until that music was "noted" by people whose background had originally been "serious art music"; from memory, this occurred in the late 70s or early 80s. They were copied by the popradio jocks whenever they wanted to describe singing without instruments and now, as Joybell says, the term is now fashionable even among the folkies.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singing
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 08:34 PM

Jack-
Add to the above that instruments cost money.

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singing
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 08:04 AM

I don't think anybody in this thread quite identified the real historical origin of unaccompanied singing in American gospel, though Kent nearly got there. It came out of Calvinism, which rejected instruments in worship (while generally being neutral about their use in secular music). This was the dominant religion in the whole of Britain for a while, and remained so in Scotland.

Whatever theological reasons there may have been for rejecting instruments, much of the impetus was political. Instrumental church music was seen as an expensive pastime for the rich, and radical Christian groups like the Covenanters, other groupings that led to the present-day Baptists, and many of the sectlets that colonized America identified low-budget democratized worship with resistance to King and State, sometimes to the point of proto-socialism.

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singing
From: Tootler
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 06:27 AM

I came across this interesting thread while looking for something else. It seems worth reviving given some of the other current discussions.

Some observations.

There was some discussion about "a cappella" vs "unaccompanied" I wonder if it is just a matter of different usage on opposite sides of the pond? US usage seems to be generally "a cappella" whereas in the UK we normally say "unaccompanied" reserving "a cappella" for more formal singing by choirs.

Someone said something about singing unaccompanied being more difficult than singing with instruments. Surely singing unaccompanied is actually a natural thing to do. My Mother and my Grandmother both used to sing round the house and never sounded out of tune to me. I only wish I had taken more notice of what they were singing as there were a lot of traditional songs in their repertoires :-(

I was at a carol singing workshop this weekend. Almost all the participants, including myself, had at some time been told to be quiet because they could not sing, yet we sang perfectly well unaccompanied all weekend. I had a brief discussion with the tutor and we concluded that some of the problem about singing was that it has become "mystified" and thought of as something special rather than something natural that everyone can do.

Just some thoughts

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singing
From: kendall
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 01:49 PM

Definition of "acappela" a song without music. (Jean Redpath)

There is plenty of unaccompanied singing. The key is hope well it is done, just like any other music.

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singing
From: Joybell
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 04:34 PM

Here in Australia the unnaccompanied singers sing-a-round is part of many of our festivals. Sunday mornings at festivals bring out the unaccompanied Gospel singers. We have many fine singers who regularly sing unnaccompanied.

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singing
From: sweetfire
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 02:16 PM

...is bloody scary!

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singing
From: GUEST,JOHN of ELSIE`S BAND
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 11:11 AM

Dave B.
       You missed the opportunity to see Roy Harris at "ELSIE`S" last Saturday (Nov.15). He was in the usual good form and with some sutable humour. He confirmed 2004 would definitely be the last year he would be travelling to clubs although he may be doing some local work in Cardiff where he now lives or the odd festival that may come his way.

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singing
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 10:36 AM

Kendall, I can think of lots of singers who can carry an evening of unaccompanied singing. I would agree with you about Roy Harris (Burl on Mudcat) who I haven't seen for some years now, but I should see him this Saturday at the "Remembering Fred" event.

Although some of these do/did use accompaniments on the odd song, they are all capable of working without instruments. Of course some of these are now sadly deceased or no longer performing.

The Watersons
Johnny Collins
Graeme Knights
Dave Webber and Annie Fentiman
Artisan (Superb harmony singing)
Tom and Barbara Brown
Ian Woods
John Foreman
Mervyn Vincent
Charlie Yarwood (esp with Dave & Annie and his ex-wife as "Beggar's Velvet")
The Young Tradition
English Tapestry
The Dead Sea Surfers
The Songwainers

This is only a very small selection, but perhaps our UK folk audiences are more used to the concept than US ones.

I will be running part of the singaround at "Remembering Fred" at CSH this Saturday, and I'm willing to bet that the majority of singers will be unaccompanied.

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singing
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 10:27 AM

Hey, John:

It weren't me,.. sorry... Although I do know A Rose And A Baby Ruth...
I haven't been to England, YET. But, I wouldn't sing it unaccompanied. :-)

Jerry

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singing
From: GUEST,JOHN FROM ELSIE`S BAND
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 09:20 AM

Jerry,
      Correct me if I`m mistaken but did you ever do an evening for us at "Elsie`s" in Cowden, Kent, as a result of contact through George Hamilton 1V??

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 09:07 AM

Now I wonder who that'd be?

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singing
From: kendall
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 08:52 AM

Well Jenny O, you could be right. I've never seen a woman do that.
What do you call it when the local "Star" shows up at a folk music club, does his thing and leaves? I saw that in Yorkshire, and the others were not pleased. Certainly he has an ego problem, and he must be in a fog to not know he is an asshole?

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singing
From: Joybell
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 07:21 AM

OOOOOOH! I love them!! Thank you McGrath. Oh Joy

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 07:08 AM

Flamingo Flamenco

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singing
From: Joybell
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 06:56 AM

Yes JennyO, A friend told me about the group using the name "Acapellago". It's a clever idea.
This title reminds me of the cheap guitar my true-love once had which he called his "Flamingo Guitar". He painted pink flamingoes on it and told people that it was for playing "Spanish Flamingo" music.

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singing
From: Abuwood
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 06:36 AM

Exactly right Steve, they are going to film through meals and everything and do it in a big house in Watford.

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singing
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 04:22 AM

Is that like a sort of ecclesaistical "Pop Idols", Abuwood?

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singing
From: Abuwood
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 04:08 AM

We have just come back from South Yorkshire for the carols. I sing with a West Gallery Choir and understood that the West Gallery style of the carols was taken out of the churches to be replaced by the church organ. I was amazed to find that an organ had been placed in the Dungworth pub for the carols???Fortunately the organist had to go early to play in Sunday school so we did get some unaccompanied singing. I find it much easier, when searching for harmonies as I go along, to do this without an instument present. There were not so many people joining in however when it was unaccompanied. Thinking about it in this way perhaps you have to have a really good ear to sing tune or harmonies without instruments, and so instuments make it more acessible to everyone.
Like many here, I can't play 2 instruments at once, and as far as I can see the voice is an instrument.
On the Gospel note - the BBC are taking 24 singers and turning them in to a Gospel Choir the first weekend in December, to be played on Sunday morning 28th December Heaven & Earth show. It will be interesting to see how they get on.

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singing
From: JennyO
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 11:09 PM

You have to have a lot of balls to sing in an "egotesticle fog" :-)

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singing
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 10:09 PM

So far as I know, no Amish church has ever used musical instruments, certainly not those in which I grew up. My grandparents didn't even approve of harmonicas in the home and any larger instrument was strictly verboten. (I never had access to a guitar until I was 17 and had left the church.)

That said, the rise and fall and swell and fade of unison singing in church always sent me into a spine-tingling trance. There were certain voices I always listened for, especially that of a friend of my mother's. She had a silvery, clear voice that was wonderful. I don't know of any person in the congregations who couldn't stay on pitch, although I remember an occasional comment made about a certain man who, they said, did not have a nice voice.

The usual mode was for a lead singer to sing one or two syllables of each line unaccompanied, which set the pitch and the pace, and then everyone would join in. (How they knew the proper pitch, I don't know- there were no pitch pipes.) I understand the melodies were much like Gregorian chant; the words, of course, were German, from the clothbound 'little black book'- 'der kleine schwartze buche'. I still have one of them.

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singing
From: kendall
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 09:58 PM

Here again, it depends on the talent and delivery.

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singing
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 09:30 PM

It's a rare singer in my not so humble opinion (IMNSHO) who can carry an evening of unaccompanied singing. Roy Harris is one, as are Helen Schneyer, Jean Redpath and Lou Killen. In gospel, The Fairfield Four and Doyle Lawson and Quicksilver(0n the many songs they do unaccompanied) are so full and rich that you don't even think about adding instruments.

As for people who sing in an "egotesticle fog", I'm, not sure an instrument would help..

Jerry

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singing
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 09:23 PM

Some unaccompanied singing is wonderful, The Shellbacks, for instance. But, when someone in a song circle drones on and on in an egotistical fog taking up the time of two or three others, that fries me.And, when it is in a foreign language, I leave. BORING!!

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singing
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 08:00 PM

Ian C,

You are correct that in my reading I may have missed something. I am no expert in music history. Do you have references? I would love to see them.

By the way, in addition to my earlier reading, I entered "Ctesibius" and "church" into Google and found a number of sources which seem to agree that the organ was introduced into Christian worship by Pope Vitalian around the year 666. A google search on "Pope Vitalian" seems to confirm what my earlier research showed.

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singing
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 09:31 AM

There was a prejudice about using musical instruments in the primitive Baptist church in the South. That's where "play parties" come from. The banjo and the fiddle were considered to be "instruments of the devil".

In early music, churches used medieval instruments until the time of Ars Nova. Instruments such as the Sackbut, Krumhorn, Recorder (block flute) and viols were used and are documented today in recreation of musical compositions collected from museums and performed by modern day pro musical antiqua consorts.

The voice would be a way of conveying religious content through lyric texts and probably would assume for theological reasons an important role.

The ballad (generally unaccompanied) would be a kind of morality play for isolated Appalachian communities. The text was the most important aspect.

Singing is the most personal of all the musical performances. The voice may be one of the few instruments that doesnt require accompaniment unless you refer to Bach preludes using solo single-line melodic instruments.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singing
From: GUEST,BUTTERFLY
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 09:14 AM

I always sing accompanied - as soon as I open my mouth the audience gets up and leaves.

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singing
From: IanC
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 08:52 AM

Kent

I think it's possible that your reading may have missed something somewhere.

It's fairly well established in the history of the early church that the organ (invented by Ctesibius of Alexandria around 246 BC) was used in church services from around 200 AD.

:-)

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singing
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 08:09 AM

Guest - I heard that it was actually a Yorkshire choir who wrote "Ilkley Moor" while they were out on a picnic - after a couple of members has wandered off for a while.

If anyone is in the vicinity of Orpington, Kent, UK on Sat 29th Nov, they can hear the Thomas Clark Quire performing at the Liberal Club - the same venue as the Friday Folk Club. At this time of year, I'm sure they'll be including Cranbrook in the program.

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singing
From: JennyO
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 06:50 AM

Joybell, a variation on "archipelago" singing as a name has already been thought of, by this group - "Acapellago". This womens' group was performing at a festival I have just come back from. In fact I stayed at the home of one of the women.

Jenny

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 08:10 AM

I'm sure they'd have used banjos if they'd been invented then.

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singing
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 06:21 AM

I'd love to see the zeal, courage and powerful faith of first century churches in contemporary churches. Banjos would be nice, too.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singing
From: Kent Davis
Date: 15 Nov 03 - 11:57 PM

I know the early chuch didn't use musical instruments in worship because I've researched very early church history. I'm no expert in it, but it's not a terribly difficult thing to research if you are interested in it. There are English translations available of the writings of early 2nd century church members. There are also "outsider" accounts of Christianity from the 1st and 2nd centuries (Pliny, Josephus, Suetonius), as well as the New Testament accounts. Musical instruments just weren't used in worship. I have not seen any account of their use earlier than the 600s. If you know of earlier accounts, I would very interested in them.
As to wearing togas and riding camels, perhaps I didn't communicate well. I did not mean to imply that we do everything that 1st century Christians did. First century Christians did some things because they were 1st century (for example, wear togas) and other things because they were Christians (for example, worship God). We are trying to imitate the things which they did because they were Christians. We don't particularly care about imitating the things they did merely because they lived in the 1st century.
Again, I am NOT implying that there is anything sinful about musical instruments themselves. I don't know whether or not the Primitive Baptists think musical instruments are sinful. I know that the Old Regular Baptists, like the churches of Christ, sing a cappella in worship for the reasons stated in my posts above, NOT because of any objections to instrumental music in general.

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singing
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 15 Nov 03 - 10:05 PM

I don't know, Kevin... is it required that we ride a camel to church?

Jerry

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Nov 03 - 07:22 PM

"...the original church (in the New Testament) sang a cappela" - how on Earth do you know that?

They also probably used to walk to church and wore togas and such like. So what?

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singing
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Nov 03 - 05:39 PM

Hi Jerry,

>For starters, anybody have any thoughts about unaccompanied gospel >singing? Do you think it was more common in black or white gospel?
>Why was gospel sung unaccompanied? Any opinions?

There is a tradition of so-called White Spirituals. "Sometimes I Feel Like A Motherless Child" is one although it's often taken as a Black Spiritual. (George Pullen Jackson's book is helpful.) There is probably a tendency to adhere to the "sacredness" of acapella singing. In early music history, during the Ars Nova period, musical instruments were felt to be unholy. This is true of the early Southern "Hardshell" Baptist tradition as well since the folk instruments were associated with the wild hoedowns and "set runnin's" where fights would break out and corn liquor ruled. There was a religious reaction. Hence, Play-Party songs.

Many of the traditional religious songs might not well be transferred to conventional chordal harmony. Many retain a modality that is archaic. The level of musicianship harmonically amoung the traditional folk gospel musicians was not well-developed. Even now, many who play guitar can't find the "right" changes to some of the songs they accompany because they don't understand the harmonic implications of the melodic lines.

There is more harmonic fluidty when chords are left out. For exampole in Barbershop style, to add an accompanying guitar would make for a chop-chop style and destroy the continuity of the vocal harmony. Also, the availability of good instruments was not found in many rural churches particularly in the Black South. Meetings on John's Island and Georgia Sea Islands relied heavilly on rhythmic handclapping in lieu of folk instruments.

Also, since much of Acapella ballad singing is concerned with text, an inauspicious accompaniment would detract rather than add.

My two cents.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singing
From: Kent Davis
Date: 15 Nov 03 - 01:55 AM

You are absolutely right that there are a LOT of references in the Bible to instrumental music, especially to their use in connection with the Temple (i.e., Old Testament) worship. There are also references to instrumental worship in Heaven. Instruments were apparently not used in the synagogues. There are no Biblical references to instrumental worship in New Testament worship. This, I believe, is why we use the term "a cappela" (meaning "in the manner appropriate for the chapel") to refer to unaccompanied singing.
Think of it this way: If I order a hamburger, should the waiter bring me a cheeseburger? I don't NEED to say "Thou shalt not serve me cheese". If I had wanted cheese, I would have asked for it.
Check out Ephesians 5:19 and Colossians 3:16.

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singing
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 15 Nov 03 - 12:48 AM

Hey, Kent:

That's an interesting point... although I wonder what scriptural text the church of God bases their practice on. There are certainly many references in the bible of making music on instruments, even being as specific as mentioning particular instruments. My gospel quartet has sung in all kinds of places... including a Jewish Memorial service.
We've sung in Houses of prayer with New Orleans style trombone bands, community churches that are non denominational, and I have friends who are members of the C.O.G.I.C, who love gospel. I don't know if the COGIC church is the same as the Church of God, or even for sure, whether they use instruments in the COGIC church. I'm not questioning what you're stating... just wondering what scriptural basis the Church of God is referring to, and whether the Church of God is the same as the COGIC church.

Friendly question.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singing
From: GUEST,Kent
Date: 14 Nov 03 - 11:43 PM

The churches of Christ, in general, sing a cappela in worship. The reason is NOT that we think musical instruments are "of the devil". The reason is that the original church (in the New Testament) sang a cappela.
If you want a compaison, consider the communion loaf. You don't put peanut butter on it, do you? Why not? Is peanut butter "of the devil". No, it is not. Peanut butter is fine in its place - but it would tend to turn holy communion into a mere sandwich.
When the church sings together, we are all worshipping together. Adding instruments would perhaps make for a better performance, but a better performance isn't necessarily better worship. Not everyone can play an instrument, but everyone who can talk can sing (even if they are only "making a joyful noise").

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singing
From: Carly
Date: 14 Nov 03 - 07:38 PM

I am another who will have to be at NOMAD in spirit only this year. Next year...My earliest religious musical experiences were in synagogues, where the cantor or the congregation sang, without accompaniment. There was no separate choir, and everyone sang in unison or in octaves. Christian spiritual music was someting of a shock (though a pleasant one!) at first. Personally, although I started out with a guitar and a dulcimer, over the years I have done less and less playing; I now almost always sing without instruments. I find myself more and more in the role of storyteller when I sing and an instrument seems to get in my way. Of course, it may have something to do with lack of practice...

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singing
From: GUEST,KentuckyPat
Date: 14 Nov 03 - 05:50 PM

I think you're right. In several churches, any instrument except the "Sacred Harp" (the voice) is forbidden. I believe several sects in the German Baptist Brethern and Moravian tradition still hold to the old ways of a cappella singing.

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Singing
From: 8_Pints
Date: 14 Nov 03 - 02:26 PM

When my Sue or Noreen sing unaccompanied I'm continually amazed at how quickly people stop talking and settle down to listen intently.

Those who accompany thenselves with guitars, etc seem to have to battle it out far longer to assert their authority!

Bob & Sue vG (the Shellbacks that stayed at home!)