Subject: What would you play for Irish Studies? From: Salem Gypsy Date: 05 Feb 04 - 06:36 PM If you were asked to play for an Irish Studies class, and had 1/2 hour to present typical songs, what would you give them? Also, is anyone out there from Vermont? |
Subject: RE: What would you play for Irish Studies? From: Alex.S Date: 05 Feb 04 - 07:58 PM Well, I don't know, but "Molly Malone" is pretty standard, and I've always liked "Star lf the County Down." |
Subject: RE: What would you play for Irish Studies? From: Leadfingers Date: 05 Feb 04 - 08:05 PM Anything from The Chieftens or Dominic Behan or Packie Byrne |
Subject: RE: What would you play for Irish Studies? From: GUEST Date: 05 Feb 04 - 09:25 PM Find 10 Daniel O'Donell songs..you'll have 5 mins to spare at the end of the half hour, and no-one will remember what you played.! On a more serious note, 'Down By The Sally Gardens'or the done to death 'Fields of Athenry'. Which still gets a great round of applause here in the UK's irish pubs and clubs. Something by Christy Moore, perhaps. Some of Mary Blacks earlier, more folky stuff. A Paul Brady song. Something horrendous by Brendan Shine (for comedy). An acoustic version of a U2 song. Just some ideas. |
Subject: RE: What would you play for Irish Studies? From: Bob Bolton Date: 05 Feb 04 - 09:44 PM G'day Salem Gypsy, I guess the answers depend on just what comprises "Irish Studies". Are we talking about Irish Language - or History (Modern .. or Ancient) - or 'Society' (an overview for your locals - or Indepence struggles - or ... ? Each of these would call for a different set of songs, to support or illustrate the themes of the "Irish Studies" course. Regards, Bob Bolton (Not really my area of concern ... but I presume you need more than "Irish Muzak"!) |
Subject: RE: What would you play for Irish Studies? From: Sorcha Date: 05 Feb 04 - 10:15 PM Just NOT Danny Boy, please.....try one of each kind of dance tune, a slow aire, and a couple vocals, but yes, I'm with Bob here....what kind of presentation and to who? |
Subject: RE: What would you play for Irish Studies? From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 05 Feb 04 - 10:44 PM Do you want to present real traditional Irish songs, or the fake "Oirish" stuff that most people, sadly, think of as typical? |
Subject: RE: What would you play for Irish Studies? From: Alex.S Date: 05 Feb 04 - 11:54 PM Sorcha, I *hate* Danny Boy! |
Subject: RE: What would you play for Irish Studies? From: Kaleea Date: 06 Feb 04 - 02:47 AM I, too, am wondering what kind of Irish studies you are referring to. I have a set of CD's from an Irish "folk festival" which has nonstop (in my opinion) country & western sounding stuff on it. I would never use that as a listening example. Yes, "Danny Boy" (oy!) is an American song, lyrics written in the USA--like so much other "Aarrsh" music like Sweet Rosie O'Grady etc., is actually Irish American. What about the fact that some of the most "traditional" Irish Music is Harp Music? O'Carolan for example, wrote lovely tunes is still quite popular in jamming circles-- though he is sometimes considered one of the lesser talents of Irish Harp composers. There are some marvelous recordings of Irish Harp Music out there, & if you are looking for "Traditional" the above mentioned "Chieftans" have Harp & lots of other wonderful Music examples. The typical Irish Air is always lovely, & "Down By the Sally Gardens" is also representative of Yeats, as he penned the lyrics used for that Air when sung. I might also suggest that you consider doing as did my sainted Music History Professor taught us, play music as the students are entering the classroom. This can set the mood, & give lovely examples of Music at the same time. Hopefully they will listen & not make alot of racket. |
Subject: RE: What would you play for Irish Studies? From: Big Mick Date: 06 Feb 04 - 02:55 AM O'Carolan...a lesser talent? In what circles are these? |
Subject: RE: What would you play for Irish Studies? From: IanC Date: 06 Feb 04 - 04:45 AM Oh no, here we go again ... Yes, "Danny Boy" (oy!) is an American song, lyrics written in the USA As is well documented elsewhere in Mudcat, the song was written by Fred Weatherley, an English magistrate. Just for the record, Molly Malone is also a English Music Hall song, written and composed by James Yorkston in 1884. He wasn't either Irish or American either. I'd agree with Leadfingers that Dominic Behan's songs would be a good choice. |
Subject: RE: What would you play for Irish Studies? From: MartinRyan Date: 06 Feb 04 - 05:15 AM In fact the confusion of Gaelic/Irish/American/English/Scots songs and tunes would make an excellent basis for such a presentation! I do a set of 3-4 one-hour long sessions on Irish Music with international students taking Irish Studies in my college.One session is just on song - and adopts the approach I've outlined, with a mix of recorded and live material. Regards p.s. Salem Gypsy: drop me a PM if you'd like more details. |
Subject: RE: What would you play for Irish Studies? From: ard mhacha Date: 06 Feb 04 - 05:24 AM I agree with Bob, the songs should be in Irish, try, - An raibh tu ag an gCarraig, - Baidin Fheidlimidh, - Oro mo Bhaidin,. I am sure the ever helpful Martin will supply the words and translations. |
Subject: RE: What would you play for Irish Studies? From: breezy Date: 06 Feb 04 - 06:31 AM Gaelic Football Hurling |
Subject: RE: What would you play for Irish Studies? From: pavane Date: 06 Feb 04 - 07:31 AM You can also rule out Wild Rover (Norfolk, England) Black Velvet Band (Barking, London) to name just a couple |
Subject: RE: What would you play for Irish Studies? From: InOBU Date: 06 Feb 04 - 08:24 AM This is the problem with "Irish Studdies". At NYU the head of the Irish studies department had not a word of Gaelic, while - in order to take French graduate history studies, French was a prerequisite, and you had better be nearly fluent. Well, I used to present a class in balladry at NYU's graduate English department, and it took a life time of experience to prepare. Good luck, but I wish... in the words of Robert Emmitt, "my nation will take her place among the nations of the world..." in the respect of university studies. All the best Larry Otway |
Subject: RE: What would you play for Irish Studies? From: InOBU Date: 06 Feb 04 - 08:33 AM As to the list... I guess... The bog of Granna Mhor Patrick Sheehan Green Shores of Canada The Ballad of Joe McDonnald Eamon an Choric (as you see I can't spell in any language) Brid og ne Mhallie The wind that shakes the Barley My song about Lough Neagh then insturmentals... on the pipes... Leitrim Thrush and An phis Fluich on the whistle Knotted cord, Corney is coming, and the Drunken landlady on the flute Fox hunters reel on the hurdy gurdy March for the king of Laois Cheers Larry |
Subject: RE: What would you play for Irish Studies? From: GUEST,c.sparra Date: 06 Feb 04 - 08:39 AM The Chieftains...Christy Moore...Paul Brady...Josef Locke...The Dubliners. Then maybe Liam O'Mainolai or Davy Spillane or Donal Lunny or Sharon Shannon to give a taste of traditional instrumentals. And if they want something a bit more their era and up todate you could try The Pogues...Afrocelts...U2...Sinead O'Connor. And for some Gaelic why not Iarla O'Lionaird or Maire Breatnach. |
Subject: RE: What would you play for Irish Studies? From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 06 Feb 04 - 12:57 PM Is this another example of the trend in education where the teacher takes it easy and sends the students (or their parents) out to do all the work? An Irish studies class should cover the types of Irish music and give examples IN CLASS. Once the students have a clue, you send 'em out to delve further. |
Subject: RE: What would you play for Irish Studies? From: InOBU Date: 06 Feb 04 - 01:52 PM It just struck me... you don't mean live? You mean recorded? Cheers Larry... PS... Salem "Gypsy?" Rom suh? Con vitseh? |
Subject: RE: What would you play for Irish Studies? From: Brakn Date: 06 Feb 04 - 02:30 PM The Ballad of Joe McDonnell not The Ballad of Joe McDonnald. |
Subject: RE: What would you play for Irish Studies? From: ard mhacha Date: 06 Feb 04 - 02:43 PM The whole purpose of the songs being in Irish was the fact that you were taught them and then they were translated, after all , the main aim of an Irsh class was to learn IRISH. |
Subject: RE: What would you play for Irish Studies? From: greg stephens Date: 06 Feb 04 - 02:55 PM WEll, there are plenty of lists of old Irish songs on the internet: a quick search suggests "Any old iron" and "Dirty Old Town" might suit you (oooops sorry) |
Subject: RE: What would you play for Irish Studies? From: Salem Gypsy Date: 08 Feb 04 - 04:18 PM Okay, to be more specific, this is a college course, which hasn't been offered in a while, taught by a very young, inexperienced instructor, who actually wants me to bring tin whistle, drum and guitar (sorry, purists) and perform some "typical" Irish music, without telling me what, or what kinds she has covered in class. Thank you all for the suggestions - I'll be dragging out the record player and the albums soaking myself in the sounds. I love this forum - you get the most diversified answers!! Thanks again! |
Subject: RE: What would you play for Irish Studies? From: GUEST,pattyClink Date: 08 Feb 04 - 04:53 PM If they are that clueless, then offer a sample of many types. One jig or reel, one Carolan air, one ballad, one 'rebel' song, one emigrant lament, one lullaby...you get the idea. Perhaps in all that crowd you can 'reach' each one with something they can relate to. |
Subject: RE: What would you play for Irish Studies? From: GUEST,Len Wallace Date: 08 Feb 04 - 07:05 PM Perhaps one of the songs I'd like to choose would be "Raglan Road" because of what can be described as its "mystical" (if you will) sensibilities that often appears in Irish songs of love. The poet who wrote it (Patrick Kavanaugh . . . Geez if I cannot remember at the moment) well respected. I would also do a song of rebellion. Face it, politics (whether you like it or not, support it or not) plays a major role in Irish song. And some of those tunes have a long history, rewritten for different historical events (Roddy McCorley rewitten later as Sean South of Garryowen). "Spancil Hill" for the sheer sentimentality it typifies of many songs. And typically, any song that mentions whiskey or highwaymen. "Brennan on the Moor" perhaps in conjunction with Irish/Australian "Wild Colonial Boy" (both based on true stories). The highwayman being one in rebellion to rich authority, exposing the conditions of life, taking the alternative to being a poor farmer. And whiskey, the use of it as an escape from the conditions of poor life, as the socializer for community in a time when any other socializing was considered an act of rebellion. Then there are the many songs of emigration and the famine. My choice of songs would try and cover these areas: 1) famine 2) exile or emigration 3) whiskey 4) highwaymen, conditions of life 5) songs of sentiment, love Len Wallace Len Wallace |
Subject: RE: What would you play for Irish Studies? From: GUEST Date: 09 Feb 04 - 02:15 PM What in Jaysus name are Irish bloody studies..sound a bird course to me ? |
Subject: RE: What would you play for Irish Studies? From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 09 Feb 04 - 02:23 PM Isn't She Moved Through the Fair Irish? If so, I'd think it would go well. Dave Oesterreich (NOT O'Esterreich!) |
Subject: RE: What would you play for Irish Studies? From: Dave Bryant Date: 10 Feb 04 - 11:14 AM Don't you need a partial lobotomy for Irish Studies ? - ducking and running :-) |
Subject: RE: What would you play for Irish Studies? From: Salem Gypsy Date: 10 Feb 04 - 01:57 PM Check out this definition (all you contentious people) that I found at another website. You could have some good go-rounds with the person who wrote this: How Irish is Traditional Music? It is Irish by virtue of its being played in the island called Ireland. There is a general feel to this music which distinguishes it from the traditional music of, say, Scotland, or the Eastern United States. But there are many similarities between Irish traditional music and the traditional music of Scotland and the Eastern United States. There are many differences within Irish traditional music: the music of West Cork is different from the music of Donegal. Perhaps we can see them as dialects of a language: a musician from Donegal will find it difficult to play with a musician from West Cork; he might find it equally difficult to understand his accent. One of the features of traditional music is its capacity for absorption, retention and change. Traditional music has always drawn on many influences and sources: for example, the ballroom schottisches and polkas of polite 19th-century society, English music-hall songs, Scottish bagpipe music, and even the music of visiting blackface minstrel troupes. The trend continues to the present day - there is a current fashion for making traditional dance tunes from such commonplace material as the theme tune from "Dallas". The traditional group De Danann have made a hornpipe from the Beatles' song 'Hey Jude'. Whether or not these tunes survive in the future will be determined by the community, in this case the other traditional musicians and their audience. In this context, 'Irish' means absorbing other influences and making them feel at home. Whaddya think? |
Subject: RE: What would you play for Irish Studies? From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 10 Feb 04 - 04:03 PM It's a perfectly sensible definition from one point of view, but it applies equally to the musical traditions of most countries (and, close to home, to England in particular), so it doesn't say much about any particularly distinct "Irish" characteristics. The point about musical dialects is worth repeating; people who only know the music through what the marketing boys sell us as "Celtic" music often seem to think that it's all the same thing; which is very far from being true, though mass communication has tended to iron out some regional distinctions in music (as in language) and the records Michael Coleman made in America, for example, resulted in his style rather overshadowing many others. Listening to the dance music of parts Donegal for the first time, it is easy to think it Scottish (and indeed, there is a very strong Scottish stylistic influence there). In other areas there is more in common with English styles (they exist, though this is often ignored). And so on. What might be thought of as "typically" Irish (or "typically" anything else, come to that) is going to depend very much on the individual listener's preconceptions and general cultural baggage. In this case, it really is up to the teacher at least to give you a reasonable general idea of what she wants to say. Even if she doesn't have a strong grasp of the subject she is supposed to be teaching, she surely must at least have some idea of what general subject areas she means to cover, and of what viewpoint(s) she wishes to convey? Probably she imagines that "typical Irish music" is either I'll take you home again Kathleen or the soundtrack from Titanic, though. |
Subject: RE: What would you play for Irish Studies? From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca Date: 10 Feb 04 - 04:59 PM Might want to consider Lament of the Irish Emigrant. It sounds like you are stateside, Salem Gypsy. The story of the song is that it was written by an Irish woman who might have been in America at the time. You can check the DT for the full details of the song. IanC, I thought Fred Weatherly was a lawyer. Did he become a judge later? |
Subject: RE: What would you play for Irish Studies? From: Folkiedave Date: 10 Feb 04 - 06:26 PM As always Malcolm talk a lot of sense. My own experience of Ireland is that only recently (40 years) have they distinguished between any sort of music by labelling it.........it was all just "music" when I first started going there in the early 60's. AFAIK "country music" is/was just as popular as what we might now call traditional music - there were hundreds of "showbands" that played an eclectic mix of all sorts of material.......with a basis of c and W music. Which might be an easier attitude for her to convey........ And........... There are loads of books about this sort of thing!! I can sell her/recommend.or both.........a number of these.. Dave www.collectorsfolk.co.uk |
Subject: RE: What would you play for Irish Studies? From: Salem Gypsy Date: 10 Feb 04 - 06:51 PM I agree with pattyClink and Len Wallace, though I had broken the types down into 1.Whiskey 2.Love and 3.Fighting/Stealing/Pulling Pranks. (Not necessarily in that order of importance.)I'm trying to put together a CD of the songs you have suggested, plus some O'Carolan and other instrumentals, and that should cover most things. What I'll actually sing and play myself is yet to be seen. To Dave Bryant: It seems to me a great many of the college students I see have already had partial lobotomys, (or more), so I'll let you know how they are after a semester of Irish Studies! U.K folk, feel free to chastise him yourself, I'm not good with words. |
Subject: RE: What would you play for Irish Studies? From: Sunga Date: 10 Feb 04 - 08:35 PM I think that Erin Gra Mo Chroi is a beautiful song about the sad & lonely life of a an Irish immigrant. Very touching. The recording I have of it is from De Dannan's compilation CD, How the West was Won - I can't remember who the singer is. And for fun, you could add the Irish Rover as recorded by The Pogues & the Dubliners. Cheers. |
Subject: RE: What would you play for Irish Studies? From: Snuffy Date: 11 Feb 04 - 08:34 AM Salem Gypsy Perhaps you need one more type. I would recommend 4. Amerikay. This would cover songs about the famine and emigration (to England, Australia etc as well as USA), and also the experiences of the Irish in their new countries, and songs of longing to return. Quite a lot of material in there. |
Subject: RE: What would you play for Irish Studies? From: David Ingerson Date: 11 Feb 04 - 07:27 PM There have been a lot of good suggestions so far. You could fill the half-hour more than a dozen times! Of course, with only a half hour you can offer only the trace of a taste--and I suppose that's what's intended. All the genre have been covered pretty well, but no one has mentioned the variety of stylistic traditions that existed (and still exist) in Ireland. I have given a similar workshop on several occasions (although I've given myself 45 minutes to an hour) and have used the following format: I first point out that the Celtic tribes were noted for their singing as far back as Heroditus (I think it was he), who wrote (in the fourth century BC) that they sang and chanted before they went into battle. I play a recording of one of the last singers of the Ossianic Lays, the oldest Irish song type known today. As I remember it, the last of these singers died in Scotland in the 1930's. These were ancient chants about Celtic mythology. I believe I got my recording from Virginia Blankenhorn when she helped teach the singing class at the Willie Week many years ago. Then keening. (I would attempt the Irish spelling but I know I'd make a haims of it.) This tradition of singing is performed almost entirely by women and is, as I understand, still practiced by a few people. It might be even more ancient that the Lays. (These first two examples would be very brief.) Then songs in Irish sung in the sean nos (or old style). A number of them have been mentioned in this thread. A classic sean nos song I don't remember being mentioned yet is Rosin Dubh. Anglo-Irish songs in the sean nos. Many to choose from here—from the singing of Paddy Tunny, Len Graham, Joe Heany, Tom Lenihan, and many others. Classic (Child) ballads (only a few in the Irish tradition) Broadside ballads (a rich tradition here) Parlor songs--usually looked down upon by folkies as sentimental slop. However, it has been one of the cores of the Irish singing tradition with "Moore's Melodies" leading the way. It has been said (with probably only a little exaggeration) that in the last part of the nineteenth century almost every Irish household had a copy of Moore's Melodies. Any sampler of Irish songs, especially for an Irish studies class, would be remiss not to include a Thomas Moore song. Music Hall songs and other comic songs. Gotta include a Percy French song. Although rebel songs constitute more a genre than a style, there is a rich tradition there, too. Then, if you want to go there, newly composed songs like the Town I Loved So Well or Four Green Fields. So many Irish singing traditions. Half and hour? Oh my. Good luck and have fun! David |
Subject: RE: What would you play for Irish Studies? From: InOBU Date: 12 Feb 04 - 10:34 AM Well... with your particular handle, I would include songs about Irish Travellers, and would suggest the CD Songs of the Travelling People, Irish music BY Travellers, or Paddy Keenan's new CD. I suggest this as Irish Travellers in Ireland AND in the US are labled under the racist term Gypsy. Tens of thousands of Irish Travellers in the US are openly oppressed and I present the following as an example... I have redacted Bud's prisoner number and the parole board address as I have found a huge amount of racism against Travellers on this board, but it friends wish to write on Bud's behalf, email me at InOBU@aol.com. But, again, don't forget, in Irish Studies, Travellers are a huge part of Ireland's history and tradition. Dear Friends: My friend Jim Costello has asked me to help him put this on line. He is a nomadic Irish Traveller. What follows is self explanatory, but if you have questions, Jim and I are in touch and I can pass on questions to Jim and the Costello family. Yours, Larry Otway ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- When will it be our constitution as well? My son was stopped in Honesdale PA, because he fit the profile of a "Gypsy." We are Irish Travellers. Our people have been nomadic longer than there has been a United States or an Irish nation. We are nomadic because we are born to a nomadic culture and tradition which is a part of us every bit as much as being settled is part of the tradition and culture of the dominant majority of people in the world. My son was stopped and searched because of who he is, a nomadic person and an Irish Traveller, not for anything he did. There was and is no complainant coming forward to say he did anyone any harm. They searched him, in spite of his objections and charged him with soliciting without a license, possessing an altered insurance document, and a single piece of paper that contained traces of cocaine. All these things are minor misdemeanors. I do not condone that my son possessed this trace amount of cocaine, this is not tolerated in his family or among his people. However, if he were not a Traveller, he would have paid a fine and may have been ordered to drug treatment, even though in his sentencing report there is no history of addiction. If he were not a Traveller, on the sum total of these charges he would have paid a small fine and gone on his way. If he was not a Traveller, he would not have been stopped in the first place. Most Travellers are fully licensed small contractors doing those jobs which fit out nomadic traditions. My son is a painter. The laws of the United States do not take into account how we live and make our living. As a result, some Travellers cannot get permits and licenses in every place they work. Like the new "Trespass" laws in Ireland, which criminalize Traveller tradition and life in Ireland, these license laws do not name Travellers and Romany people. However, they are designed to favor the settled community, and criminalize our very existence. My son grew up in a family of fine painters. There were no complaints stemming from his work in Honesdale, just recognition that he was a "Gypsy" and I use that word here to describe the prejudice country people (settled people) have towards the nomadic people of the world. The proof of this prejudicial view of our culture is found in the probation report submitted in my son's case by James Brewington the senior probation officer in Honesdale, PA. It reads, "The PA State police report that 'Costello' is a name commonly used by Gypsy organizations. These organizations are known to use deceptive tactics and materials to perform substandard work for unsuspecting citizens." Costello is our name and has always been our name. Travellers in the United States are the largest users of Sherman Williams paint in the nation. If there was suspicion that my son was using substandard materials, they could have tested any paint he may have possessed. They did not. Instead, in this report they say, "Gypsies" use substandard materials -- my son has a "Gypsy" name, therefore he must use substandard materials. Apply this twisted logic to any other ethnic community and there would be a line of civil rights lawyers waiting to take my son's case. Instead, there is the virtual abandonment of us by those who make their living defending the rights of others. There is no place for Travellers and Romany people to go to have their rights defended. After we are victimized by the police, we are victimized by the defense lawyers and finally by the courts. It goes without saying, that there is no such thing as a "Gypsy organization" in regard to the working life of American Irish Travellers. This is a myth which is designed to criminalize the very existence of our people. How can we gain the equal respect for our culture which is the birthright of all the people of the world in light of this kind of blatant prejudice? Some of you have heard of Honesdale lately. Honesdale and Judge Conway, who sentenced my son, and the prosecutor who brought these charges against my son, tried three of a number of high school students who committed an unspeakable crime. Let me apologize to Romany people who read this, as the crime they committed is unclean to even speak about among Romany people. They were charged with the rape of younger students at a football camp. Though 16 - 17 years old, they were charged as juveniles and so the harshest sentence was four months in "bootcamp" and one of those sentenced was given probation. Several others of the victimizers where not tried at all. Their victims were so injured that they needed to be hospitalized and their lives will never be the same. The Costello family's heart goes out to these young people who were savaged by this incident. But, we also ask, where is American justice when the same judge locks our young son away for five years for victimless allegations, for the crime of being a "Gypsy"? After almost a year in jail, he has been denied parol, though he is a model prisoner. When I say he has been a model prisoner, he is respectful and polite to everyone he meets in prison. He has taken advantage of this time to go to school. He has completed one drug course, and has five more classes to go to finish a second course. He goes to Mass every Sunday, like most Irish Travellers we are devoted to our Catholic faith. He is told he will not have another hearing before October. Please write to the Parole board and demand an expedited hearing, a fair hearing based on his record not on the lie that we are criminals because we are nomadic people. |
Subject: RE: What would you play for Irish Studies? From: David Ingerson Date: 13 Feb 04 - 07:23 PM Thank you, InOBU, for pointing out a hole in my thinking about Irish song traditions. The travellers certainly add a richness to that tradition and I have ignored it. The singing of Margaret Barry comes to mind immediately. How sad that so many of us feel so insecure that we feel we have to put others down in order to feel good about ourselves. Unfortunately, our culture seems to engender that type of thinking (or non-thinking). David |
Subject: RE: What would you play for Irish Studies? From: toadfrog Date: 13 Feb 04 - 10:43 PM What do you play for an Irish Setter? What do you play for an Irish Setter? What do you play for an Irish Setter? Early in the morning! Heave ho, up she rises! Heave ho, up she rises! Heave ho, up she rises! Eary in the morning! Play a chorus of Danny Boy! Play a chorus of Danny Boy! Play a chorus of Danny Boy! Eary in the morning! Play a chorus of Kathleen Mavournin! Play until that dog goes crazy! Play until it starts to how-l-l-l! Early in the morning! |
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