Folklore: Pogue Mahone

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Big Tim
Date: 14 Feb 04 - 03:40 PM

Thanks Martin. Anything of a documentary nature?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: MartinRyan
Date: 14 Feb 04 - 03:53 PM

Big Tim

Not yet! I'm fairly sure I've seen the details in print at some stage - but no idea where or when, for now.

Regards

Subject: an tSeanbhean Bhocht
From: Felipa
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 03:11 AM

an Púca wrote:
"Shanty < seantigh - a new one on me and I don't know: sean would come before tigh (that adjective always precedes the noun it qualifies) so your "teach sean" objection can be dismissed; however, the areas where the old dative tigh is retained as an independent nominative or accusative form also retain a final g sound in the phonetics which would give shantig in English if the derivation were true."

I've heard about shanty before (not the song, sea shanty or chantey, related to chant, 'chanson', etc). I think sean-tigh is a likely derivation because we also have bothy, reputedly from "bo" for cattle. In that case the word order is unusual, I think, but that does happen sometimes in placenames. Also think of the Irish word bóthar" which I read was originally a lane or road wide enough for cattle.

In Scottish Gaelic, the word for "teach" is "tigh" or "taigh" (usually pronounced something like tie). In Ulster and Connacht there are pubs known as "Tigh Jack", "Tigh Ruairí" etc. I haven't noticed people saying "tig" except in Munster; in Donegal it sounds rather like "tee", like the genitive "tí"

also, there is your point that sometimes people base their pronunciation on reading rather than on hearing, and I would also say that people mishear or change unfamiliar sounds (vowels seem to be very mutable tomayto, tomahto) I believe it was common for immigrants to America to speak their names, which were then written down by immigration officials and sometimes the surnames changed from that point on.

I've also heard "is math sin" = smashing, as in mavellous, said to be from Scottish Gaelic. I like this, but I don't know what the evidence or authority for that is. If you want "creative etymology", how about a reference to Greeks having a smashing time with the plates when they party?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Felipa
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 03:25 AM

An Púca, did you see my message to you on the tune for Tá mo chleamhnas déanta (tá mo chleamhnas á dhéanamh)re Tá mo mhadra scaoilte/díolta? (Radhalum raindí and Téir abhaile have their own threads now)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Lighter
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 01:15 PM

An Puca & Felipa, I for one appreciate your learning and lore.

While I remain positive about "Taliaferro/tolliver," reading the Irish details has made me very shaky about the reported pronuciation of "Mahone." Deep meditation is persuading me that what I read as a teenager was that Gen. William C. Mahone of Virginia (1826-1895) [just checked that!] allegedly pronounced his name as "mahn" or "mah-hun."

Plausible?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Twat
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 01:19 PM

Such erudition about kissing an arsehole! Makes this site worthwhile.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,An Púca
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 01:50 PM

Felipa

I must confess that there were high-seas in the Sruth na Maoile of my mind when writing of shanty and I did not consider the Gaidhlic pronounciations. If shanty is from sean and teach then I would consider Scotland the place where it happened. The reason for pubs (and everyone's house in normal usage) being called tigh Sheáin or tigh Mháirtín is that these were mostly used in the dative case due to people traveling to or from them or speaking of something in them etc. All these situations require simple prepositions which in turn required the dative. The same phenomenon of old datives being used as nominatives is seen in placenames (for the same reasons) - therefore Aird instead of Ard etc. This usage of tigh doesn't occur where the adjective sean- could be placed before it in Ireland except in Munster where the final g is pronounced without lenition.

Bothy - this is definitely of Gaidhlic and Gaeilge origin. The word both is in the earliest legal tracts and in the Old Irish glosses and means hut. (In one instance I remember it glosses the Latin for tabernacle.)   We usually use a diminutive form, bothán in modern Irish. I'm sure you still have both North of Malin Head as well, possibly spelt buth these days. Your word for shop could be related and then also the English booth, but I don't know if these have been investigated or not and I am uaigneach without my reference library on the continent at the moment.

I don't recall the etymology of both in Irish only (previous to the etymology of bothy < both) so I can't say if it is based on bó or not without a joyous reunion with Vendryes. However I don't think bothy in English comes from a compound of bó and taigh; rather from both or a diminutive of it. I remember that there is an abstract formation bothas in a 7th century legal text called Críth Gablach and that it meant servile tenancy or cottier status. The person of that status was a bothach.

Bó is however definitely the basis of bóthar.    Another very common word derived from bó is buachaill used in the modern language for a boy. It originally meant a herdsman and we still use it as a verb "ag buachailleacht" to which is added (superfluously among etymologist farmers) "na mbó". This is a bit like saying Oileán Í of Iona when Í already means island (and is cognate of it and isle in English, ile in French etc. - inis a purely native Irish word for island).

BTW, iona is Hebrew for dove and Colm is Irish for dove, so when did it first get called Iona?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,An Púca
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 02:10 PM

Re. smashin(g) < is math sin; this etymology actually does not emanate from any folk other than the academic folk. There is no evidence disproving it. However, the evidence for it is merely (90%) the shared phonemes (in Scotland only) and shared semantics.   That's why I mentioned Godel and incompleteness - many things are true but cannot be proven without doubt. An etymology for smashing from smashing, breaking (of plates) cannot be disproved either.

On that side of the scales, you would have to consider the greatest "Irish" word in contemporary English. This one, "craic", has managed to recover from earlier "anglicisation" unlike "pogue mahone" which gave rise to this thread.   This is probably because of the spelling "crack" being usurped by the drug. No one now writes "for the crack" when they mean "for fun" even in the English-language contexts. The word "craic", however, is merely the English word "crack". It was borrowed in slang usage such as "he's cracked (in the head)".   From slang usage such as craiceáil for having fun, craiceáilte for being funny, mad etc. came craic for the fun itself. Earlier printings of "the crack was ninety" were not therefore anglicisations at all but retention of the original spelling of a borrowing from English into Irish. We are unlikely to see again the near contemporary usage of the word in Irish and in Hiberno-English as it is nearly all one-way traffic at this stage - from English to Irish.

It does however show that a breakage can be considered good, which is smashing crack altogether in this context.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: MartinRyan
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 04:05 PM

Well said!

Regards

Subject: more crack
From: Felipa
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 05:57 PM

point taken about booths and bothys - Scottish Gaelic also has the word "bothan" and "buth"; the latter is now used for a shop

Níl aon tóin tinn mar do thóin tinn féin

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 07:05 PM

There's no argument about the immediate derivation of English "bothy" from (Scottish) Gaelic, so far as I know; but both Gael. "both, bothan" and "booth" may in their turn derive independently from Old Norse "buð" or a cognate form. MacBain (Etymological Dictionary of the Gaelic Language) cites these and other examples from further languages, including both Cornish and Lithuanian.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Haveth childer everywhere
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 07:23 PM

See here for more about Monto than you really want to know! ( but it still only dates back to 1958.)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Tony sans cookie
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 10:24 PM

Can any of the Gaelic experts translate for me 'Liathroidi' - which appears in a version in a previous thread and was sung in a Dubliners version I have on record?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Mr Happy
Date: 16 Feb 04 - 03:53 AM

Thanks to all above for the most enlightening info.

For me, 'Pogue Mahone' in Luke Kelly's rendition of 'Monto' on a scratchy 2nd hand vinyl LP always sounded to me like 'Poke ma hole!'    .

Some sort of Mondegreen?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,An Púca
Date: 16 Feb 04 - 05:06 AM

I was wondering when MacBain would be mentioned. Always wise to seek "a second opinion" in relation to the etymologies therein. Having siad that, many of them are correct and an ON antecedent of "both" would be of no surprise. As said previously, Vendryes (in French, paperback, many vollumes) is still the man in this area and it really is time a team-production historical dictionary of both Gaelic languages was available. (Its coming! Its coming!)

I don't want to send those with a casual interest in the wrong direction either -

MacBain the only accessible dictionary of that type available and most of it is grand. Just that you won't know when it is dangerous.

Vendryes - not for the casual browser. Mainly concerned with etymologies (Indo-European roots etc.) of Old Irish forms, therefore not dealing with forms of words likely to occur in current songtexts.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: barrygeo
Date: 16 Feb 04 - 06:01 AM

Guest Tony

Liathroidi = balls

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 16 Feb 04 - 07:22 AM

Dear Mr. Earwicker

I knew we had it somewhere! That nicely confirms Frank Harte's estimate.

Regards

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 16 Feb 04 - 09:12 AM

MacBain was last revised in 1911, and is of course out-dated in many respects. His work is accessible, though (I believe it's on the web somewhere, now) and is still useful, more especially if used in conjunction with other works of reference. I quote him here because the relevant entry is fairly straightforward and uncontroversial so far as I can tell. It is sensible to add a caveat, however, and the point is well made.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: MartinRyan
Date: 16 Feb 04 - 05:09 PM

smasher --> smashing, rather than vice versa, as far as I can make out.

Regards

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Daithi
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 07:29 AM

Fascinating stuff for sure...here's another for you: how about codger = cairde? Some nonGaeilge speaker , upon hearing a Gaeilgeoir address his mates as "A Chairde!" took the word to mean old duffers.
(Ok, ok, bainfidh mé mo chóta...)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 07:45 AM

This afternoon, I take a class on Irish Songs and Singing with some foreign students. Amongst other things, they asked me to teach them the Irish National Anthem, which is always sung in Irish/Gaelic. "No problem" thinks I, "I'm sure I can find a phonetic version somewhere on the Net.". Which I did, of course. Mind you, the author of the site, who cannot seem to bring himself to mention the word "English", seems to be under the impression that the song was originally written in Irish and provides a translation into "American" - which is Kearney's original English !

There's nowt as strange as folk!

Regards

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Fiolar
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 09:15 AM

Tony sans Cookie: As an intersting aside, in Father Peter O'Leary's autobiography "Mo Sgeal Fein" in one chapter entitled "Tri Liathroidi Dubha" (Three Black Balls) he describes as as young school boy seeing what appeared to him to be three slender poles with three black balls on top of them on the top of Macroom Castle. He later found out that they were iron spikes holding the skulls of three executed men.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Fiolar
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 09:26 AM

Felipa: I agree with you about the usual aspect that the adjective nearly always follows the noun in Irish. There are of course exceptions as in "an sean bhean bhoct" and Peig Sayers' autobiography "Machtnamh Seana Mhna." However to throw a spanner in the works according to the Oxford English Dictionary, "Shanty" could possibly be Canadian French "chantier" meaning a "lumberjack's cabin".

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Snuffy
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 09:31 AM

Or an Ashanti dwelling

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,An Púca
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 01:32 PM

Martin

A great one I heard once about the Irish national anthem. A group of musicians playing in a pub were asked to play the one with le words "Shoving Connie around the field" in it. No one knew what was being requested. Persistence of insistence the pestilence which followed. Then the enlightenment - "every band plays it, usually the last thing they play." Seo libh canaidh amhrán na bhfiann!

Now there's a phonetic version for you.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 18 Feb 04 - 01:04 PM

liathróidí are balls, but testicles are colloquially referred to as stones, at least by Scottish Gaelic speakers I've heard

I don't have time just now to search for info., but I though shanty towns were originally where Irish emigrants stayed. You're welcome to offer evidence pro or contrary.I don't know how long the word has been in English. I do think I've read it in American novels circa 1920-30. You'd have to consider the use of "tigh" in Irish at the time the word shanty starts appearing in English rather than its use at present

Subject: RE: pedantic crack
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 18 Feb 04 - 01:32 PM

more arguments re crack vs craic are at Pedantic crack (at the beginning of the thread)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Pierre
Date: 18 Feb 04 - 03:14 PM

Chantier "Canadian French meaning a lumberjack's cabin" - mon cul - peut etre c'est francais pour un "workshop". Qui sait.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: LadyJean
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 12:29 AM

JOHN KERRY POGUE MO BREACHAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Squinty
Date: 31 Mar 04 - 07:36 PM

For what it's worth, Pogue Mahone is in fact just an anglicised spelling of the Irish (Gaelic) phrase póg mó thóin (the accents indicate long vowels) which does simply mean kiss my ass, or arse as we tend to say in Ireland.

What a fascinating thread on a fascinating website.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Bridget
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 07:47 AM

Thank you all! Feeling like the only Irish descendent stuck in an midwestern USA German-Dutch town, I saw "Pog ma Thoin" on a bumpersticker, and finally found the meaning here -- am LOL!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: TS
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 05:42 PM

too many threads to read em all...so sorry if I'm re-wording anyone else....I dont think there's any great indepth reason for the term..simply gaelic is it not?.."pog mo thoin"...kiss my arse.....slainte!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,noddy
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 04:24 AM

I thought by now that someone would have mentioned Family Mahone a real bunch of ***holes fronted by Radio 1 DJ Mark Radcliffe.
Seen them several times worth seeing live. They have a web site somewhere.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: TS
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 03:26 PM

What about The Mahones?..great Celtic-Rock type band from Kingston Ontario...lots of Pogue(or at least McGowan) references in their songs....Slainte!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Cluin
Date: 01 May 04 - 04:02 AM

What about `em? Any three-chord wonder band who knows how to shout obscenities at the top of their lungs can do what they do.

So, obviously, they are a good time.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Annie
Date: 05 May 04 - 03:17 PM

In 1983 a great old guy named Frank Shean walked up to me on the main road in Rann na Feirsde and, pointing to a large bruise on his forehead, said, "Bfhuil me mo sclata cleagann ar toin a bhaile" (pardon my rusty fast spelling.) That transliterally means "I hit the board of my head on the arse of the house"...ie "I hit my forehead on the back of the house".

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 05 May 04 - 03:46 PM

or maybe 'a slate hit me from the back of the house', though I don't know that it should not be 'bhi me...', rather than 'bhfuil me...'

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Fear Faire
Date: 05 May 04 - 05:28 PM

Tóin an Bhaile is the name of one end of Rann na Feirste - the bottom of the town(land). Bhuail could sound like "bhfuil" from a Rann na Feirste native. "Bhuail scláta mo chloigeann ar Thóin an Bhaile" possibly - a slate hit my head in Tóin an Bhaile.

Tóin is quite a common element in Irish placenames - the most interesting one being those that are called Tóin le Gaoth or Tóin re Gaoth - arse to the wind - denoting the last resort of sheltering one would suppose. These are anglicised in different ways but the Armagh version Tandaragee would be the best known to Mudcatters and singers I would imagine. Tonragee the most common anglicisation.

FF

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: RobbieWilson
Date: 16 Dec 04 - 06:07 AM

I love these discussions of the history, etymology and pedantry behind simple music but does anyone know who lead the pedants revolt?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: ard mhacha
Date: 16 Dec 04 - 07:11 AM

Tanderagee in County Armagh, Toin-re-gaeith, meaning backside to the wind, built on a hill slope facing east, away from the prevailing westerly winds.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Raven
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 01:19 AM

From an Aussie point of view, 'Kiss my arse' is widely used over here as a reply to anything that doesn't deserve a dignified response. Also is has been twisted into 'suck a fart' or 'tounge me (my)pucker'....instead of saying 'kiss my arse you idiot', one might say, 'go suck a fart ya wanker' or 'tounge me pucker ya fucker'

other words you may wish to discuss the origins of are;

Nong - a simple person
Bludger - lazy person, layabout
Bodgy - of inferior quality
Brown-eyed mullet - a turd in the sea (where you're swimming)
Chunder - vomit
Cark it - to die, cease functioning
Clacker - pucker, date, cackpipe, poochute or bumhole
Goopsock - comdom

Now I've given you all the shits......I'll rack off.

PS. Great dynamic you got there.
Raven

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Declan
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 03:33 AM

What tiler led the Pedants Revolt?

I've no idea.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Brakn
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 04:06 AM

I didn't think that Mahone was a surname but there are 53 Mahones listed in th 2002 UK electoral register.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 09:35 AM

"What tiler led the Pedants Revolt?"

Although I'm not exactly LOL, I am chuckling inwardly. Good work!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Stephen R.
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 09:04 PM

Most people have probably heard of the legendary Pogue carburetor or carburettor if you like, designed by the Canadian inventor Charles Nelson Pogue in the 1930s and said by some to achieve 200 miles per gallon. It was never produced commercially, because, some say, it was suppressed by the oil companies, which wanted to maximize consumption of gasoline/petrol.

Several years ago a case of Pogue carburetors turned up in an old warehouse in Winnipeg (Pogue intended to call it the "Winnipeg" Carburetor), and were acquired by an engineer named Kevin Mohone. The engineer found that the carburetor performed poorly, but he expected that it would, because the composition of gasoline has changed significantly in the past seventy years. He re-engineered the carburetor to use with today's fuels, and plans to market it as the "Pogue-Mahone Winnipeg Carburetor."

Stephem

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 09:27 AM

Well, I'm glad this fascinating thread has been revived! Long years ago, my uncle Geordie (in a small place in Donegal) was told, insultingly and "as Beurla", to "kiss my arce". He replied, swiftly and Swift-ly, "If ye'd clean it I might kick it for ye".

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 10:59 AM

There is, of course, the story of the first broadway production of The Hostage. Brendan Behan was acting as an advisor to the director, and explained that most Irish homes have a framed picture saying "God Bless this House", in Irish, hung on the wall. Behan generously offered to make such a sign for the set.

It was several weeks before the director found out what Pog mo thoin actually meant...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Alice
Date: 06 Jan 07 - 10:18 AM

I have to laugh whenever I see or hear the ads for this popular restaurant in Billings, Montana. Most people in Montana have no idea this name is a take off from kiss my ass, (corrupting Pogue to Pug).   Click here, Pug Mahon's, Billings, Montana

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Grid
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 10:09 AM

Arseholes are cheap today
Cheaper than yesterday...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Nikon D40
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 10:10 AM

Gadzooks!