Turn down the volume!

Subject: Turn down the volume!
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 03:20 PM

Many amplified folk band these days play at an unhealthy volume. I walked out of a Fairports show because it was too loud. I bet most of that band suffer from tinitus ( or whatever it's called ). A lot of folk bands, today, play much louder that rock bands from the early sixties. It's not the way to go!

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 03:46 PM

Turn it UP!!!!

Or turn it off...

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 05:45 PM

Fairport doesn't suffer. They became deaf years ago.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 05:57 PM

Nice to have a venue where you can still play loud music. Most London venues would get the sound kit confiscated at half time if bands still played at 70s volumes.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 06:22 PM

I'm with you, Tunesmith! Many gigs are too loud. I always carry hearing protection. Pathetic, isn't it?

It's a shame that a sound person doesn't have a decibel meter on the board to warn when the sound is dangerously loud.

Last night I went to hear a harp and guitar duo. My companion wanted to sit near the front so she could watch the harper's hands. However, this put us so near that speakers that I had to move. Not only was the sound loud, but is also seemed so artificial that I began to wonder if they were faking it. Later I moved to the back of the house and decided no, it was a live performance.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Joe_F
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 09:12 PM

Many folk venues are so small that there is no need for amplification at all, and it is nothing but a nuisance. I have repeatedly had the experience of being able to understand only about half the words in a song coming thru the sound system, and then, when the performer turned away from the microphone to converse with someone on the stage, being able to understand him or her perfectly.

Doctors have a maxim, "Primum non nocere", which may be freely translated, "First of all, don't make it worse." God knows the doctors need it, and the politicians even more, but the people who sit at those bloody consoles might also do well to inscribe it on the panel.

Turn that damn thing off!

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 10:08 PM

Ah, the pleasure of bluegrass!

Just put that lead instrument right up to the microphone.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: GUEST, Hamish
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 08:16 AM

I know it's a cumulative thing, so earlier Led Zeppelin and Deep Purple gigs did some of the damage, but the gig which made my tinitus permanent was so-called folkies The Oyster Band. :^(

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Mr Red
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 09:11 AM

I wear ear plugs to ceilidhs these days. The quietest ceilidh band I know are Captain Swing - as the name suggests they are about swing not oumph - very enjoyable non-the-less.

Tickled Pink are a band I would avoid even if it was in my own town. Their attitude is if you don't want volume don't book us. Falling on deaf ears is probably about the size of it. They are too fast to dance to, the human physique has not changed with technology, gravity hasn't altered, only fashion has any degree of freedom.

The amazing thing is the Simon Care Trio play almost archetypical trad and at a volume that you can tolerate. And a very enjoyable bop. Simon is in both.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 09:31 AM

I wonder if the volume wouldn't be necessary if the audience actually listened to the music, as I do.

Turn it down!

Many churches disguise a bad organist with high amplification. Far too many groups seem to do the same about their bad music.

Turn it down!

Noise hides and prevents communication.

Turn it down!

If you want to feel the vibrations in your guts, visit an airport or run a jackhammer.

Turn it down!

Lots of times you need some amplification, but it needn't be so loud that those in passing aircraft are rendered sterile and deaf.

Turn it down!

A competent person on the sound board can enhance a concert.

Turn it down!

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Strick
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 09:36 AM

I'm going to a large Celtic Festival next weekend. The last time we went it was raining as always this time of year, and we couldn't stand to be in the tents where the bands were playing because the sound was too loud. We went out and bought ear plugs and always keep several sets in our car for emergencies like this. Only way we can enjoy being there at all.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 09:40 AM

I put my left ear tinnitus down to too many years listening to loud jazz bands in small clubs ( I think Count Basie Band in the Opposite Lock B'ham and the Maynard Ferguson Orch. at the 100 Club London, neither club much more than 20 feet wide, probably most guilty- but worth it)but the electric blues bands my club likes to book, rather than the acoustic blues I prefer, seem to combine instrumental volume (usually the bass guitar) with inaudible lyrics and announcements. As the regular "old git in the corner", the club sound man usually checks with me that the volume is acceptable!

RtS

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 09:42 AM

I'd rather both play and listen with no amps at all, but if I am listening to electric music then I do like it loud. However it is probably less important for folk-type music than for (say) death metal or techno.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: GUEST,eliza c
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 10:01 AM

Turn it up! And then turn it down again!
I like both. And while I'm sure going to an airport or listening to jackhammers may be loud, they are not musical experiences. Loud music is loud music, it has its' own value. Different strokes...personally, my left-ear partial deafness is from the proximity of my violin to my left ear, acoustic as owt. Acoustic as ouch, even!
x ec

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: GUEST,JOHN OF ELSIE`S BAND
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 10:24 AM

Eliza C.,
          I went to your concert in Sevenoaks where the sound system had been cranked up too much and it was so unbalanced that J.Spiers was mostly inaudible. I got the impression that you tried to get adjustments during the show but to little avail.
John.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 01:04 PM

My left ear deafness (10% loss, not much really) is due to a grenade simulator (giant firecracker) going off much to close to me during army training. Even so, nearly all music is better heard with the amps cranked DOWN.

Whatever happened to good acoustics, anyway?

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 01:10 PM

We've been thanked many a time for keeping the volume to a reasonable level. Even when playing noisy bars, I usually find that turning up means the talkers just start shouting at each other. Often turning down means that reduce the volume of their chatter in sympathy!

The role of a PA in the overall sound is often overlooked. I was chuffed to little meat balls to have an audient say "that guitar has a wonderful tone" at Julie's last gig. It does, but the fact that it still had after its journey through the desk means I did my job right.

Sorry, been waiting days for a chance to tell someone about that ...

All the best
John Robinson
http://www.JulieEllison.co.uk

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Wesley S
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 01:17 PM

I hate to ask this but how many good sound people are out there ? If most of these folks make their money running the board a rock concerts then that's what your going to get. Rock concert volume.

Just because you can turn it up to 11 doesn't mean that you should.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 04:41 PM

John is right, getting the sound of each instrument right is a challenge.

If I have time in soundcheck, I like to get each member of the band to come out front at least twice (lead length permitting) and first to achieve that as I fade his volume up and down the quality of sound of his instrument is the same - from not in the PA at all, to really quite loud - just louder and softer. If he agrees, then I have HIS sound. Of course he may want something everybody else hates(!!). That's quite common with metal guitarists who want to scoop all the mid out, and then when the band plays, the pitch of what the guitar is playing is lost. You can get the same with violin players who sometimes seem to want a scratchier edgier sound on their instruments than anyone else. Then when all are set I ask the band to play a song they know well, and take it in turns to come out front, and see if they hear the bits they want to hear. The drummer usually loses out, because he is stuck behind his kit, and keyboards are a problem too.

Two problems then arise (apart from each member of the band wants to be a bit louder than the rest of the band want him). First if there is a sound limiter it starts going off and you are trying to figure what to turn down (I have met sound limiters that my daughter can set off without an amplifier, she has a big voice). Second people arrive and change the acoustics completely so all the time you have spent was wasted as you have to start changing the curve on the EQ and turn it up bit by bit as people absorb sound, and absorb treble more than bass.

Then you get the helpful audience. Some want to feel the bass guitar rather than hear it. Others the opposite. Some like the kick and snare to stand out, others want the tom rolls, and "mood" off the floor tom. Some want the singer right out front (so you are left with a "band in a box" behind them), and others want the voice back in with the rest of the musicians.

At least one band I regularly do sound for always tells me "We want a really horrible wall of shit".

At the end of the process, if I can hear each instrument and voice distinctly, and walk round the room and still hear each intrument and voice distinctly all round it, then it's probably about right. Until someone turns his or her stage amp up or down, or moves too close to a monitor so I'm frantically trying to figure out what has sudenly started to feed back and it all turns into guesswork - or the guitarist starts an effect that sounds like feedback but isn't (or hits a resonance so that what sounds like the effect is feedback, and I'm wondering when he is going to turn it off and the rest of the band are wondering when I am going to fix it...)

It's a bit like sonar. If you are getting pinged from every direction it's probably about right. When you get more pings from a particular direction, you may need to alter course!

And remember. If it sounds brilliant it's a good band. If it sounds dreadful it's the fault of the soundman.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: GUEST,eliza c
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 05:22 PM

John of Elsie's band, hi. Yeah, that gig was a bit of a nightmare. I think the problem is not loud or soft, but appropriateness (propriety?) and clarity. Went to a gig in Edinburgh last week in one of the underground arches, and the band that I've seen a million times with people dancing up front were trapped in one half of the arch on their own while the audience stood about ten feet away in the other half, because the amps turned to their usual volume were just too painful to be near. Couldn't hear, could only feel pain. On the other hand, Steve Earle at the House of Blues in Los Angeles, that was the loudest gig I have ever been to, and I have to say that the physical sensation was something in itself. I couldn't hear a word, but was definitely rocked!! It's like with all music, it's totally subjective and a different experience depending on what mood you're in when it's encountered.
x e

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 06:54 PM

Roger the Skiffler,

with people like you as the resident old '(self acknowledged) deaf in one ear old git in the corner' being the one setting the volume, I am bemused if this could be the root cause of excessive volume levels...   :-)

I once watched a local 4 string (acoustic - no amp) banjo player called Robbie Robinson control a noisy room. They were all chatting rather loudly, he started at a fair volume, stayed there, then gradually got quieter, then boom! up to normal volume! The audience shut up, every head snapped round to look at him... :-)


Robin

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: alanabit
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 03:05 AM

I agree that skilfull handling can quieten a rooom. There can be a problem when you have a table of persistent chatterers who are not interested in you from the start. They make it impossible for the next table to hear, so they start chattering too and so it goes on. In my heart, I am with Rapaire. However, we live in a culture where many people do not like the idea of active listening. That it why they are so indifferent - or even downright rude to those who do. I prefer to play unamplified or at low amplification. However, at the end of the day, I want all those who came to listen to me to be able to do so. I'll turn up the volume if that's what I have to do.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 03:51 AM

OK, Robin, I confess- it's all MY fault!
Actually, I have warned Steve ( the in-house sound guy)I'm not a good reference point, but if I think it's too loud, it probably is....mind you, I've seen stickers saying: "If it's too loud, you're too old"...

RtS
(must be getting too old...)

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: sledge
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 04:14 AM

Tunesmith,

Fairport are folk-rock, rock should be loud, if it was loud no problem.

Sledge

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 03 Mar 04 - 05:36 AM

I have to agree that no amplification at all is the best sound that can be achieved and heard by the 10 people in the immediate area, but I also present the altenate view.
As the sound engineer in our folk club, I have to agree (my experience is) that there are very few good acoustic soundmen out there. There is no money in it - so you tend to get a lot of rock 'n roll kids. I learned from one of the best acoustic men and (dammit!) he is still the best. I think the problem is that too few people know the sound frequencies (hertz) that acoustic instruments and the human voice produce and adjust the equalization (EQ or Bass-mid-treble) settings on each channel of the mixing console to get the best sound possible.
A room you can get for free to hold your club meetings may not be the best space for sound. A good engineer can make it better with the use of EQ and Sound Processors (e.g. Reverberation). Not everyone's natural singing voice is perfect and cannot be enhanced by a slight boost in certain frequency ranges. That is what soundmen do. They enhance what you have to make it sound better.   
I have played folk and rock and done sound for all kinds of groups for 20 years. I have owned a fine set of ear-protecting plugs (They reduce the sound without reducing sound quality) for about the same length of time. I still have mild tinnitus from my rock days, when I was BULLET-PROOF, standing next to the drum cymbals and my own 2 x 15" LAB Bass amp!
Our room is set up for 40-60 people towards the front of the stage but will accomodate 200 at a push. Rather than having the mains in front try to push sound all the way to the back of the room, I use another set of mains halfway along the room with a delay of a few microseconds to match the front mains. Each set of mains speakers have separate amplifiers and 31-band EQs.
I have a Peavey digital EQ unit which has a built-in audio analyser which sends out "pink noise" through the mains into a flat-EQ microphone plugged into the unit to calculate the best EQ setting for the room. You can do two or three passes (each takes about 5 minutes) in different parts of the room and it will add them together to find a good overall compromise setting.
I did three passes for the front of the room, then another three passes for the rear part of the room. I thank our folks who sat through the entire ordeal so that I could get a true reading with people in the room. It is very true that room acoustics vary with the number of people in the room. Each person is 100# to 300# of sound-absorbing water! Set-up of your equipment should be made in the optimum conditions. Getting 40 people to sit through 30 minutes of "pink noise" is asking a lot!
A problem for sound engineers is aural fatigue which happens after spending many hours at the console, both in the studio and the concert setting. The only way to stay honest is to use a sound meter.
At a folk concert, I set the meter at the 80-90 Db range and nowhere in the room does it ever get louder than that.
Your performance space also has to be yours to control amd separate from any other part of the restaurant/bar area. We do not allow talking and throw out persistent ofenders.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: GUEST,Hugh Jampton
Date: 03 Mar 04 - 10:36 AM

Guest,
       Of which folk club do you speak? I feel we should be told. I have not noticed any threads re folk clubs where amplification is as well set up as you describe.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 03 Mar 04 - 11:13 AM

Folk-rock is just a label somebody invented. Joni Mitchell and James Taylor come under the general heading of rock, but I trust that they would play at a reasonable volume.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: GLoux
Date: 03 Mar 04 - 11:22 AM

Hank Bradley wrote a very funny article on this topic for the Old Time Herald a while back. He posited that many sound people ask the question,

"Is it too loud enough, yet?"

This was the title of the article.

-Greg

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Mooh
Date: 04 Mar 04 - 12:26 AM

It amazes me that some soundfolk don't think to turn down one thing instead of turning up another. Balancing sound by making everything progressively louder is kinda surreal. It's a generalisation but it seems to be a particular affliction of the rock genre. At any rate, if the drummer only knows loud, that sorta sets the minimun threshold of volume for everyone else.

Our little-local-monthly-coffee-house-type-live-music-venue has been pleasantly quiet lately but still quite listenable, except when morons insist on applauding after every instrumental break, interupting the song. Oh well, I can't have everything.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Escamillo
Date: 04 Mar 04 - 01:33 AM

R.Bridge said:
>At least one band I regularly do sound for always tells me "We want a really horrible wall of shit".

I applaud their honesty. Many years ago I decided to never attend any concert where amplification is used. Only non-electric jazz, folk, tango and a whole world of classical music, LOUD, BRILLIANT, OVERWHELMING, but natural sound. If we look for places with good natural acoustics, it is not necessary to listen to a set of carton and plastic cones emulating instruments and voices, because what you hear is NOT a voice or an instrument at a higher volume. You hear the product of an electric system which poorly EMULATES the natural sound.

If the music has been composed specifically for a synthetizer, I agree that it must be electric, and will listen to it at a reasonable volume, otherwise I simply go to another concert, surely not to listen to the Three Tenors and the Berlin Philarmonic in a park.

Sorry, at the age of 57 I'm getting a little old :))
Un abrazo,
Andrés

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Mudlark
Date: 04 Mar 04 - 02:37 AM

When I first started attending local folk concerts here about 15 years ago they were virtually all acoustic. The venue is not large, holds maybe 70 people, the sound is good in the room. I never had any trouble hearing either instrument or voice, and to be able to hear both unaltered by electronics was a treat. No more. Haven't heard an un(often over)amped concert in years. I know it's easier on the musicians, especially if they are on the road, doing one gig after another, but I yearn for at least a happy medium.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 04 Mar 04 - 03:09 AM

Hugh Jampton (I guess you are a Goons fan?) - you enjoy your anonimity and so do I. Suffice to say that my club is not in Kent or anywhere else in the UK. I described my system and procedures accurately.
To clarify my post, unlike analog frequency analysers, the "pink noise" test is done only once for each room in which you use the gear. The Peavey digital EQ (it's in a flight case in my garage but if anyone wants the model # I can get it) will store and remember multiple EQ settings. In addition to the Mains EQ tests, I also use it to set up the stage monitor EQs. It is the same procedure except the mic for the Peavey is on stage facing the monitors (a channel on the snake can temporarily be used to bring the sound back to your console position). The Peavey also works as a real-time frequency analyser - a very useful tool. I do not use this unit as an EQ as it is too difficult to adjust quickly - I transfer the readings to analog 31-band EQ units with sliders at each frequency for easier control. (The Peavey unit has an backlit LCD readout and you have to scroll along the 31-band frequency range to the one you want to adjust then up/down the arrow keys to adjust it).                                          
I posted in defense of us poor sound guys what gets the blame if the band sucks! We even have to drag all this gear in and out of the place.
I also posted to help any aspiring sound persons (yes, you women can do this too if you can lift a 60lb speaker (or can persuade somebody else to lift it :-)) out there with what I have learned over many years of running the board.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Joybell
Date: 04 Mar 04 - 06:07 PM

I just sang unamplified in a big old church. Oh bliss! They had to build them with the acoustics in mind in the days when this one was designed.
I do always make a point of thanking the sound crew from the stage when I do have to use amplification, and it's been well done. Usually it is, in my experience, and I'm not famous or well known. I believe that "loudness" is maybe usually under the control of the performer. I do understand the problem of how to be heard by some people and be background for others. Doesn't work generally but you can't tell that to a restaurant owner. Cheers and thanks and Koala stamps many times over for the sound crews.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Escamillo
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 02:04 AM

Surely, churches were built by architects with spell and music in mind, from the beginning, or at least since the middle ages. Unfortunately the engineering of acoustics was not well developed, and very often you will find that reverberation is excessive, but you may well compensate that effect by bringing a thousand people to the concert! :)

It's very cruel to see those modern halls recently built, which cost a fortune, and where everything is foam, cloth, carpet.. and huge amplifiers(deformers?) and speakers(shouters?). Two years ago I was invited to sing jazz at a place like those, and had to sing behind a microphone. I kept the mic at approx. 15 inches, the sound engineer made his magic, and I sang very comfortably. I would prefer to sing without amplifiers, but then you have two alternatives: 1) compete with piano, brasses, percussion and basses and be defeated, or 2) sing like Pavarotti at the opera house, which is not appropiate for jazz. When heavy instruments are present at a pop or folk concert, it seems that we are stuck to electric sound.

Un abrazo,
Andrés

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 10:57 AM

There was a pop group in "The Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy" who played their instruments remotely from space. Their Sound System exceeded tha arms limitation treaties in most inhabited solar systems and needed the power of a medium sized star to drive it. They were best heard from an adjacent star system. Do you know any group who even have a giga-watt system on this planet ?

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: mooman
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 11:10 AM

Dear Dave,

I took my daughter to a Queens of the Stone Age indoor gig last year and I reckon they got quite close to the Hitchiker's level!

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: GUEST,Keef
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 04:42 PM

Round where I live, (Northern NSW) we have heaps of old village halls built around 100 years ago, well before PA was invented. Most have great acoustics and you can stand on stage and speak or sing..everyone in the hall can hear you clear as a bell.
Nowadays whenever there is a gig, in come the truckloads of speaker stacks and racks of electronics. Result is always the aformentioned "wall of shit" most of the punters are outside getting away from the noise until late on when they are pissed and stoned enough to come back in for a dance. Long as that happens the gig is judged a success.
Ask the sound man nicely if he could adjust the levels so we can perhaps have an idea of what the words to the song might be and you will be advised to GFYS.
Keef (proper old fart)

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 04:50 PM

Keef,

Should we have a thread on "Does Technology thrive on Stupidity?"

:-)

Of course if you also asked for the levels to be adjusted so that we could hear the tune, you could be responsible for the collapse of the Modern (what is euphemistically called) "Music" 'Industry***' - when people realise that there is none!

***Industry - a human activity based on the technological use of lots of energy, machinery, and loud noise - not always to any obvious logical purpose.

Robin
(Another Old Fart)

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 05:37 PM

Dave, I'd guess that Douglas Adams based his band "Disaster Area" on Status Quo, the loudest band I ever saw live. My ears rang for days after that one!

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Magic Gillian
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 06:38 PM

go home

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 11:32 PM

I'm not usually one for loud sounds either - I've had a slight hearing problem since I was born and an over amplified concert just sets it buzzing so I can't hear properly anyway.

Having said that, I do like rock music (just saw 'School of Rock' this evening, great film, very funny and ace soundtrack), and it just sounds weird when played quietly.

A good sound engineer is worth their weight in chocolate in my book, especially any one that has the patience to do a 45 minute sound check for June Tabor and make her happy, when she's already 30 minutes late starting.

Les Barker does the quickest sound check. He stands up, says "'Ello" down the mike and that's it.

LTS

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: cobber
Date: 06 Mar 04 - 01:26 AM

When we started with Cobbers in 1968, pa systems had no place in folk music and people were expected to sit quietly and listen to the music. What changed was that folk clubs moved into the pubs and no amount of people yelling "SHUT UP" could quell the noise as the night went on. We were possibly the first to take a pa into a club and half the audience walked out in protest. It was a whole 60 watts!
As people got used to the idea, it opened new venues to folk musiciand and we would find us playing the unis along with the rock bands. The only time I can remember that people complained about the volume was at a big dance we played regularly. We had a pretty big system which we kept hidden behind an enormous Australian flag. During the week we would have maintenance days and one week, we painted the big system as the rest of the week we were only playing at schools and we used to just tale our foldback system and use that as a small p.a. So what happened? Saturday night, we turned up at the union hall for the dance, opened the trailer and all we saw was the foldback. We had forgotten to reload the other boxes. It was too late to go back and we had 800 dancers on the way, so we just put the foldbacks behind the flags and pushed it as far as we could. Like I said, that was the only time people complained about the volume, because it isn't about volume at all, it's about the quality of the sound equipment and the skill of the person in control. I hate big festivals because there are so few sound people who know what an accoustic instrument should sound like.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: LadyJean
Date: 06 Mar 04 - 01:37 AM

There used to be a club here called Grafiti. Their concert room was tintinitis hell. It was too small, and if a band played loud it hurt. When Steeleye Span played there it was a horror.
When I caught Steeleye Span they were at the Carnegie Music hall, built a hundred years ago, when Carnegie had Lillian Russel herself in to test the accoustics. They could play as loud as they liked. The concert was wonderful.
I went to hear the Chieftains at an attrocity called the I.C. Light Amphitheater. Who was the genius who put up an outdoor concert hall in between the Fort Pitt Bridge, Carson Street, and the railroad tracks? I think the only bands that would do well there are the kind that would give you tintinitis.
A lot depends on the venue. Someone should remember that people go to concerts to hear music.
Oh, if you're playing in Pittsburgh the best accoustics in town are at the auditorium at the Soldiers and Sailors memorial. The Carnegie Music and Lecture halls run a close second.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: GUEST
Date: 24 May 05 - 11:54 AM

Mr red complained about the volume of Tickled Pink........fair enuf...as he says we make no apologies for it. We bill ourselves as 'the loudest ceilidh band in the universe' so there really is no room for complaint if you accept this statement. I am however prepared to take issue that we play too fast....I am a stickler for tempos and am quite miffed to have this allegation put forward.

Would it be possible for Mr Red to turn down his clothing if at all possible.

Thanx for the nice comments about SCT though.

SimonCare

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: kendall
Date: 24 May 05 - 12:00 PM

Volume will never replace talent.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Charmion
Date: 24 May 05 - 01:01 PM

Some 15 to 20 years ago, when I still considered myself fairly hip and with it (as it were), I went to hear Levon Helm and his band (not The Band, alas) play a gig at a club operating in the basement of framing shop in Old Ottawa South. The ceiling height was probably eight or nine feet -- quite normal in a living space or storage area but low for a rock venue -- and the speakers were stacked up to the acoustic tile.

I didn't make it through the first set, and all I remember of it now is a feeling of oppressively claustrophobic dread coupled with severe pain. The cover charge was $20 and I was poor as a church mouse at the time, but I was so desperate to get out of there that I never demanded my money back!

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: kendall
Date: 24 May 05 - 01:13 PM

A few years ago there was a tee shirt that said "IF IT'S TOO LOUD, YOU ARE TOO OLD."

I have a tee shirt that says "IF IT'S TOO LOUD, IT'S TOO F*****G LOUD."

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 24 May 05 - 01:15 PM

Spoken like someone who's too f#cking old, Kendall...

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: GUEST
Date: 24 May 05 - 01:34 PM

Am I the onlyone who doesn't find CH funny?

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 24 May 05 - 01:41 PM

Church keyboard players and organists are among the worst offenders. I've been tempted to have some stickers printed that say "God Is Not Hard Of Hearing" and surreptitiously putting them on all keyboards and organs.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 24 May 05 - 01:47 PM

Who said I was even trying to be funny?

It's plain to me, Mudcat already has more than enough people who try to be funny and fail misserably...

There are times when music is SUPPOSED to be loud... if ya don't like it, hit the bricks....

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 24 May 05 - 01:55 PM

there is loud and there is ***LOUD***. Can you really call it music when it is physically painful to listen to 50 yards OUTSIDE the venue?

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 24 May 05 - 01:57 PM

-I- can... apparently others cannot...

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: open mike
Date: 24 May 05 - 01:59 PM

turn up the talent knob!

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Ernest
Date: 24 May 05 - 02:01 PM

Loud musicians are generous: they give their share to the poor who can`t afford a ticket...

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 24 May 05 - 02:01 PM

Don't call Kendall a knob...

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: GUEST,mongrel
Date: 24 May 05 - 02:34 PM

Hmm... I had a previous career as the quietest sound engineer in town. I was famous for the oft-repeated: "By all means, mic the blasted hi-hat; turning it all the way down to zero makes me feel like I'm doing something about the racket..."

It went nowhere. Just wasn't what people seemed to be looking for...
Can't blame the poor guys n gals still in the biz for doing what the market expects...

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: PoppaGator
Date: 24 May 05 - 02:42 PM

For the record, I find Clinton amusing far more often than not ~ but not always. I thought his comment above was pretty funny, even though I could plausibly be accused of being too f***ing old myself.

On rare occasions, I find live music too loud for my taste. More often, the loud music is OK with me, but I am completely unable to make out people's voices through the cacaphony, and am amazed that other people carry on conversations.

As long as they are not trying to converse with me, I'm OK with it. I'm perfectly happy being able to hear the music and nothing but the music; that's why I'm there.

I don't like being expected to participate in a conversation that I can't hear; I just smile, nod, point at my ear, shrug, shake my head "no," etc.;, and hope they get the message.

For those of you youngsters who don't already know how it works, the kind of partial hearing loss I'm experiencing at age 58 is not at all what I had expected. I'm not walking around in a world of silence ~ that would be preferable! Instead, the background noise is getting louder and it's getting more and more difficult to make out speech, which sort of gets lost in a general rumble of inchoate noise. I can hear music (melody/harmony) very well, though, thank you, and can usually even hear sung lyrics almost as well as ever. Don't talk to me while the music is playing, though ~ I won't be able to hear a word you're saying!

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: kendall
Date: 24 May 05 - 02:48 PM

When I reach the age when I am unable to match wits with people half my age, then I'll be too old. In the meantime, fire away. It's your funeral.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: kendall
Date: 24 May 05 - 02:54 PM

I do agree that there are times when music should be loud, such as the cresendo in certain classical pieces. However, in folk music? NEVER. If you want to destroy your hearing, go ahead; just don't mess with mine.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: PoohBear
Date: 24 May 05 - 03:51 PM

As an occasional sound board operator and a frequent band follower I have heard the problem from both sides. Bars in our town are quite small and it is difficult to run a sound system for electric instruments, even at minimum levels, and not overwhelm conversation. However, I perceive a lot of the problem to be the publics general belief that volume = talent - or style over substance. My choir teachers and piano teacher always taught that music is not only the notes but the silence between them, and the varying volume of them.
PB

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: frogprince
Date: 24 May 05 - 07:26 PM

A couple of years ago, my wife asked that we drive a few miles to hear a gospel singer she has sung in back-up group for. Soloist with pianist, not rock oriented at all, in a mid-size church. Some fool cranked the volume completely over the top, and I, like a fool, didn't exercise my perogative to leave. The next day on the way to work, I kept trying to figure out what the whistling sound in my car was. I found out, all right; I have never been without it since. I would have sued, on principle and in hopes of saving someone else the misery, but how the heck would you really prove something like that in court.
IF IT'S THAT LOUD, IT'S TOO F**KING LOUD!

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Gray D
Date: 24 May 05 - 08:15 PM

All mixing boards should have a "mute" button for the audience . . . and their bl**dy mobile phones.

Then perhaps we can turn the amps down and listen to the music.

Gray D

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 24 May 05 - 08:25 PM

Things like this are precisely the reason why I went to playing acoustically, and solo.
If some one would just glue the lead guitarist's volume knob at a decent level, this would be less of a problem. The more they wank on-stage, the louder they seem to get.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 24 May 05 - 10:14 PM

Kendall... 95% of the world is LESS than half your age... and from what I can tell from what you post, they mostly have twice your wits

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: kendall
Date: 24 May 05 - 10:37 PM

You never learn do you, Clit?

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 May 05 - 11:11 PM

Clinton--

If you ever met Kendall, you'd know you couldn't be more wrong, particularly regarding wit. You'd be hard pressed to come up to half his level.





RE: volume etc.

I've been to 2 different Celtic festivals in my area. The first is relatively small but has all sorts of great stuff, including battle re-enactments, fiddle contests, and various music groups. For years I've seen a group there which sings in Welsh, Manx, and Breton, among others (Galician also, I think), and has a pennywhistle, guitar, harp and some other intruments.) It was great to hear all the lyrics, and the instruments. They used stand-up mikes.

Now, however, I've seen the same group at a different Celtic festival. As the other groups do who perform there, they now use electric guitars and drums--and big amps. They seem to have a bigger audience, maybe a younger one. But now they're just another rock band--they've lost a lot of their former unique quality. I like rock--but it's not what I come to a Celtic festival for.

To me this is not progress. To them it might be--since they may well be asking and getting more to perform. I suppose it depends on what the goals of the performers-- and the audience-- are.

The second festival will never see me again--(maybe it doesn't matter to them, particularly if they've increased their audience)--but the first one will.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Kaleea
Date: 24 May 05 - 11:13 PM

Since I prefer Acoustic Music, I only use amplification to balance the sound, or else when the venue requires just a little boost to hear the instruments. I suspect that when the hippie crowd used to go to concerts, between the screaming & the booze/drugs the band was only heard if amplified at Warp decibels--& this has become the standard. When it gets so bad that the baby boomers all turn off their hearing aids & throw them on stage, maybe the bands will take the hint.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Peace
Date: 24 May 05 - 11:14 PM

Reminds me of the line--goes somethin' like this--given by Robin Williams in "Good Morning Vietnam".

"AND THIS ONE IS FOR THE BOYS IN ARTILLERY."

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: robomatic
Date: 24 May 05 - 11:17 PM

Many people, particularly men, ignore how vulnerable their ears are, particularly in noisy professions. If you work around steady noise, or even areas with intermittent very loud noises, such as using pressurized air, it pays off in the long run to employ ear protection. At gigs i attend I try to remember to bring some plugs of the soft insertable kind, hopefully not brightly colored, but I know no shame when it comes to safeguarding them itty bitty little hairs.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 24 May 05 - 11:46 PM

If I ever meet Kendall, it'll be too soon

Especially if his 'joke' above is the best he can come up with... that one stopped being funny when -I- quit making it 25 years ago...

----------------------------

A certain BIG NAME folkie controls the volume of his own electric guitar when he plays Windsor Folk cause he got tired of sound guys turing him down because of the complaints from the 'blue-hair-biddies'...

"Do 'em good to feel SOMETHING for a change" he told me one night...

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 25 May 05 - 01:52 AM

Actually, I understand amplification in the '70s was just loud.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: kendall
Date: 25 May 05 - 06:44 AM

The thought prosesses of other people always interest me. Why some people are unable to stick to the subject at hand, and have to resort to sniping and personal insults is a mystery.

Clinton, I could probably come up with something more to say about sticking to the subject, but I have to speak at my sister's funeral today, and I'm getting too old to multi task.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: GUEST
Date: 25 May 05 - 06:51 AM

Processes, that is.

Now, folks, you gotta admit that Clinton is funnier than Mother's day in an orphanage.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: jacqui.c
Date: 25 May 05 - 07:15 AM

Clinton - I'm so sorry that you are losing your hearing at such an early age.

You just won't be able to imagine the joy that can be got from picking up the subtle nuances of a beautiful piece of music, played at a volume that allows one to listen, rather than fight the urge to move as far away as possible.

I'm also sorry that you seem to be losing brain cells to such an extent that you are unable to present a cohesive argument in support of your opinion on any matter. Resort to personal insults is the sign of a very small mind.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 May 05 - 07:37 AM

Kenadal,

When I reach the stage when I am unable to match ages with people half my wits, then I'll be too old.

;-)

"Clinton is funnier than Mother's day in an orphanage"

ROFL.... and much funnier than MG...

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 25 May 05 - 12:02 PM

"have to resort to sniping and personal insults"
I don't have to... I enjoy sniping and personally insulting people who deserve it

"I'm so sorry that you are losing your hearing at such an early age"
There's NOTHING wrong with my hearing at all...

"Resort to personal insults is the sign of a very small mind."
You'd know... that's all you seem capable of... At least, even with all my supposed brain cell loss I can form a whole, cogent sentence. What's your excuse?

"and much funnier than MG..."
Al'right, now yer getting nasty!
:-P

You poor sad people need to cluster a little closer together...

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: kendall
Date: 25 May 05 - 01:44 PM

The fact is, CH, you are not able to simply state your opinion on any given subject and let it go at that. You always have to resort to sniping and personal insults as if your opinion and you are the same thing. How come you can't separate the two?
When you attack someone who doesn't agree with your opinion you say much more about you than about them.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 25 May 05 - 02:02 PM

Whatever Kendall... want a little band-aid for your little skinned knee?

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 25 May 05 - 02:03 PM

So how is he different from most people in this forum?

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 25 May 05 - 02:18 PM

Seems to me I fit in better than most people care to admit Chris!

:-P

heh

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: PoohBear
Date: 25 May 05 - 02:25 PM

Geez, would you guys knock it off? I thought this was supposed to be a relatively intelligent discussion about music, amplification and the veriations of it - not an adolescent pissing contest!
PB

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Billy Weeks
Date: 25 May 05 - 02:49 PM

It is not very widely known that Cecil Sharp gave up collecting because the buggers couldn't sing loud enough.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: PoohBear
Date: 25 May 05 - 02:52 PM

OK - newbie question, probably, but who is/was Cecil Sharp? Am I correct in assuming he was making audio recordings back before the elaborate electronics were available?
PB

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Billy Weeks
Date: 25 May 05 - 03:01 PM

Irony, I trust, PoohBear. But I'll tell you one thing about him: His ears weren't painted on.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: kendall
Date: 25 May 05 - 05:44 PM

This forum is whatever the hell we want it to be except for personal attacks and racist remarks.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: jacqui.c
Date: 25 May 05 - 05:54 PM

Personal opinion. I find that very loud music is uncomfortable and the words tend to become indistinguishable. I have constant tinitus from attending clubs with loud music in the 60s and 70s and do feel that there is going to be a higher proportion of people with hearing difficulties as the years go by and the club and concert kids today grow older.

I don't think that any music really NEEDS to be played at a deafening level to be appreciated, but feel sorry for the kids who may end up partially deaf in their 50s in the future. Then it's too late to do anything about it.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 May 05 - 10:36 PM

"and much funnier than MG..."
Al'right, now yer getting nasty!
:-P

I'd offer to write about you too, but Joe would just have to delete that one too.... ;-P


The fact is, CH, you are not able to simply state your opinion on any given subject and let it go at that. You always have to resort to sniping and personal insults as if your opinion and you are the same thing. How come you can't separate the two?
When you attack someone who doesn't agree with your opinion you say much more about you than about them.

Great minds think alike.... or is it fools never differ.... or both...

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 25 May 05 - 10:47 PM

All of the above FT...

Some people take this place seriously... those who know better do not...

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 May 05 - 10:53 PM

Some people take all other people in this place seriously.

But I know how to pick and choose.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: kendall
Date: 26 May 05 - 07:52 AM

And of course the bottom line is, if Clinton didn't have me as a mature adult role model to look up to and struggle against, he would have to make one up. LOL

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Leadfingers
Date: 26 May 05 - 12:03 PM

Back in the Dark Ages when I was doing a lot of solo pub gigs , I used
to reckon I had got it right if after about fifteen minutes someone would say "We cant quite hear you at the back!"
If you are playing in a bar where people may want a conversation ,PA is almost mandatory , but it should NOT be so loud that a conversation has to be SHOUTED .

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 26 May 05 - 12:23 PM

A good PA is a necessity, and sometimes you have to bring your own, sometimes they have one, but you can control the volume.
No matter what your performing situation (club, bar, coffeehouse, etc.) make sure you have a little something called Projection.
If you project, you don't have to crank it.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: GUEST
Date: 26 May 05 - 04:28 PM

The more you crank it up the louder the talkers get. It's a game of leap frog. Screw that.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 26 May 05 - 05:38 PM

Yaaaaaaawnnn... Kendal... you're an idiot... why anyone would look up to you is beyond me... that you think anyone would is both arrogant and deluded...   Enjoy your egress...

Chris...
With a mic, you don't have to project... that's the whole idea...

Those are the people who bug me... they's who feel the need to holler into their mics...

"The more you crank it up the louder the talkers get"
And then one has to consider the venue... if it's a pub/bar, the musician is secondary at best...   People are first and foremost there to drink alcohol (If you're going to sit there an drink water or tea, get out) and enjoy the company of the other patrons... That, 99.9% of the time, means they are going to talk... To TRY to play 'over' them is a pointless endeavour...
If it's a concert, then the people who are talking need to be told to get out for the sake of everyone involved...

I'm in a lucky situation where my 'local' where I get the lions share of my gigs is a bunch of small rooms... The people who want to talk sit else where, and the people who want to be involved with the music come into the dining room with me (Or whoever is playing that night) and well, it's not a huge room, so it doesn't HAVE to be very loud...

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: PoppaGator
Date: 26 May 05 - 06:53 PM

I think Chris has a point about "projection" ~ with or without a microphone, there's more to it than just volume. Attitude is also a factor, dynamics (varying your volume), eye-contact, etc. ~ in a word (well, two words), stage presence.

If you pull out all of these stops in your effort to hold the crowd's attention, you should have less need for sheer volume, and won't feel the need to turn all the knobs up to eleven.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Blowzabella
Date: 26 May 05 - 08:04 PM

I'm not a performer but I do have experience from another angle. I have in my time been in venues where loud music was played and enjoyed it - however, I have also learned to listen to music and the two are not the same thing.

To enjoy an evening because of the vibrations being felt in the pit of your stomach, is not listening to the music. If you are a musician, playing in those circumstances, I am sorry but you are not being appreciated properly.

There are still musicians out there who understand their craft sufficiently, who can perform without amplification, even in a several hundred seater venue, with all sorts of instruments.

If you play in venues where amplification is necessary because of chatter, that is one thing; if your choice is to outwiegh the music by the volume because it creates a different type of experience, that is another thing - but the third way is to play, without amplification and make it work - and it can - very well indeed                        

It's horses for courses - same as everything else - not wrong, not right, just different...

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 26 May 05 - 08:19 PM

Now that this discussion has moved back towards the thread title it feels safeR to chuck some comments in!

Projection is not Hollering. It's a weird thing that I've only found one way to explain to inexperienced people (mostly speakers at conferences - not so different!)Stand on stage - ignore the PA - talk (or sing) as if you're conversing with someone in the third or fourth row.

From a different direction - all an amplifier does (apart from spread evil of course - it's a machine after all) is make things louder. A loud mumble is no more comprehensible than a quiet one. The Fast Show's 'Softly Spoken Irish Poet'?

Dynamics is an interesting one. Be aware that any PA system will have about half the dynamic range (the difference between the loudest bit and the quietest bit) than real life. You have to make a choice as to which bit you want, or adjust what you do, or use compression.

Sorry - I shouldn't use such words, I know compression takes Folk Music to the Dark Side.

Someone on a different thread - a PA advice request I think - suggested building your own speakers. The money saving bit is cool. However, people like Fender, TurboSound, EAW, Renkus Heinz, Martin and my personal Faves (this week) Nexo, spend millions of pounds researching how to make them sound great. They don't publish designs so you can build your own, and they NEED controllers to work properly. Bose were the first to do this and we've all seen a million and one 802 rigs out there. Thirty years ago they really were the dogs.

Spend money on PA, as much as you can.

Sound men are.................

An audio technician is someone who knows all about gain structures and EQ curves dispersion patterns and what have you. A sound Engineer is the next step - the connection with the music.

There are a few - John Scullard, Joe Rusby and Ollie Knight is merely a start. (Let's have more name checking?) However the folk scene seems to be patholgically unable to spend money, so anybody who does learn all the technical stuff will be able to make way more money (and I really do mean WAY MORE money) doing corporate work, or touring with a rock and roll band or becoming a plumber..................or going on the dole.

No, not bitter - I've made my choice.

There is another person who can help - and possibly change everything long term. The friend/spouse/mate/sparebod that a band brings to a gig. These people need to be taken more seriously, but they have to do more work. Buy books, listen to others, ask questions, whatever.

If you turn up and ummmmmmm and errrrrrrr, then the soundman won't listen to you. If you have a clue, are assertive (never agressive) and friendly (mmmmmmmmmmm beer) then any soundman worth their salt will listen, and possibly even bugger off to the bar and let you get on with it. When you've learned how to drive a small but decent desk - mackies, studiomasters and Spirits? - then even a Midas XL4 is only different in that it takes a cab to get from end to the other.

This is a middling random series of thoughts - they all make sense right now, but may not tomorrow morning.

Share and enjoy

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: kendall
Date: 26 May 05 - 08:30 PM

Clinton, if I wanted to sink to personal attacks and name calling as you always do, I could take you apart like a $2.00 watch. You just proved my point.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: GUEST
Date: 26 May 05 - 08:31 PM

Is that $2.00 Canadian?

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: kendall
Date: 26 May 05 - 08:40 PM

This has gone far enough. I am grown up and mature enough so that I don't need the last word. Adios (That means goodby, Clinton)

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: GUEST
Date: 26 May 05 - 08:43 PM

Can we have an argument thread for these people?

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Blowzabella
Date: 26 May 05 - 08:51 PM

Well, I shan't bother contributing in future if I'm just gonna be passed over......

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: GUEST
Date: 26 May 05 - 09:01 PM

Sorry Blowzabella, I think we crossed rather than passed.

Are you anything to do with the band?

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: GUEST
Date: 26 May 05 - 09:02 PM

And valid points too!

SORRY AGAIN

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Blowzabella
Date: 26 May 05 - 09:07 PM

Thank you 'guest' - appreciated - and not - nothing to do with the band - at least not that one...

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Blowzabella
Date: 26 May 05 - 09:12 PM

please post again....

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 26 May 05 - 11:23 PM

You can't go far enough soon enough kendall...

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: JudeL
Date: 27 May 05 - 07:40 AM

One band whose live concerts I really used to enjoy was called Shave the Monkey. Their performances were full of lively energy and were certainly not quiet. Then they changed, the line-up changed a little but also they had a new sound engineer. I went to one of their concerts at a concert venue where I had previously seen their original line up. The artists new line up was still a very talented group but now the sound was cranked up so loud it was no longer enjoyable the lyrics were lost & it was no longer music it was just a painful noise. After mentioning my concerns to the organisers I ended up voting with my feet & leaving.

I agree that sometimes the problem is the band, & sometimes it is the venue but there are a lot of times when the sheer volume of the amplification is just too much & destroys performance rather than enhances.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: GUEST
Date: 27 May 05 - 08:42 AM

ch, wHY DO YOU HAVE TO KEEP PROVING HEIM RIGHT?

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Barbara
Date: 27 May 05 - 09:09 AM

MR. SOUNDMAN
(Pat Donohue)

Mr. Soundman, turn up the sound
So they can hear me for miles around.
Use all the volume that you can manage.
I wanna do a little hearing damage.
Mr. Soundman, you know what I need.
Keep on a-crankin' till their eardrums bleed.
I wanna terrorize this crowd.
Oh, Mr. Soundman turn me up loud.

Mr. Soundman, I'd like there to be
Lots less of everyone and lots more of me.
If you could turn me up a little bit higher
Till just before you blow your amplifier.
Mr. Soundman, cause me some pain.
I don't need earplugs or Novocain.
I ain't too good, but I ain't proud.
Oh, Mr. Soundman, turn me up loud.

Mr. Soundman, what did you say?
I must have blacked out. I think I'm okay.
You really got me with that high pitched squealin'.
I can't hear nothin' but I like the feelin'.
Mr. Soundman, you got it right.
My ears are ringin' for the rest of the night.
It's always up and never down.
Oh, Mr. Soundman turn up...
I wanna crash and burn up...
Mr. Soundman, turn up the sound.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: jacqui.c
Date: 27 May 05 - 09:20 AM

Great - another parody, and I can sing this one with real feeling!

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: GUEST,Joe_F
Date: 27 May 05 - 10:12 AM

Why should there be any music at all (other than occasional singing by the customers) in a pub where people go to talk? I was in such a place just the other night, with some Hash Harriers, and I had to cup my ear & yell. Conduces to intimacy, I suppose.

--- Joe Fineman    [e-mail]

||: What is fascinating in a mirror? A world I am not at the center of. :||

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: jacqui.c
Date: 27 May 05 - 12:19 PM

Same with restaurants. I go out to eat for the company and a good discussion is a major proponent of that type of meal. So many restaurants nowadays make it impossible to talk without shouting and I, personally, find that very unpleasant.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 27 May 05 - 01:52 PM

Then find somewhere else to go... Or stay home

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 27 May 05 - 02:30 PM

I really resent the way that shops have the music cranked up way too loud... I've had to resort to shouting at shop assistants because they cannot hear what I'm saying and don't think of turning down the music. It's got to the point now where if the music is too loud, I just don't bother using that shop.

And I wish the bloke down the block, playing some wailing Spanish blokes in the style of the Gypsy Kings would turn it down..... I can barely hear my radio!

LTS

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: kendall
Date: 27 May 05 - 07:34 PM

We have a few places that are run by people with an IQ over 60, and that's where we go. One has traditional Chinese music and the other, a seafood restaurant, has no music at all.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 May 05 - 12:51 AM

Some years ago while watching a local muso work an unamplified room the following happened. He was doing old fashioned banjo - what I call "English Music Hall" 'plain' style banjo - no fancy picking, but he seems to be able to do that, just not the style he likes.

Loud chatter. He started off so soft that he was not heard, then built up to very loud. Suddenly he went very soft, and the whole room shut up and all eyes swivelled to him. He had them in the palm of his hamd with nmo chatter for the rest of the bracket.

It's called technique.

:-)

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 28 May 05 - 01:40 AM

I've actually done that on a few occasions.
It's VERY effective!

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Rasener
Date: 28 May 05 - 03:22 AM

I have just moved to a new location for my folk club.
The very first evening was a week ago. There was no PA and I was concerned incase people at the back might not be able to hear.
To my amazement, I didn't need to worry. It must be one of the best accoustic venues going.
I sat at the back so that I could test the sound. It was perfect, I could even hear the artist talking with clarity.

I would like to say that I have been at gigs to see Queen, Status Quo etc. Enjoyed them very much including the volume. Have even been ten feet away from Peter Greens Speaker when he played with John Mayall. It was great and has its place.

However, I enjoy very much the accoustic side of things and find that I listen intensly to the music and really enjoy it.

There is a place for both, but loud PA at my club will not happen. With a good audience who want to listen, it isn't necessary - as is the case at my club.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 28 May 05 - 07:26 AM

I've made a note of the song, I'll pass it on to Al & Sarah who take turns running the sound desk at Jagz!

RtS

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: kendall
Date: 28 May 05 - 08:11 AM

I kmow many pros who like little if any sound. It's the amatuers who need volume.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 28 May 05 - 09:07 AM

"It's the amatuers who need volume."

There ya go, talking through your stupid hole again

-I- know TONS of pros who love to play accoustic, or through a LOUD PA...

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 May 05 - 09:41 AM

Clinton H--

I understand that "Martin Gibson", branching out from his charm school, has a new show called "The F---ing P---Poor Apprentice". Object of the show is to be as crass and unpleasant as possible, and, secondarily, to sit around flailing at guitars and bragging about non-existant gigs.

You can't hope to attain the lofty stature of the host of the show in this pursuit--for one thing your gigs actually exist--but you are certainly a worthy apprentice.

Keep practicing.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 28 May 05 - 10:00 AM

It's like there's a buzzing noise in here or something...

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: SINSULL
Date: 28 May 05 - 10:29 AM

Careful, Ron. Next Clinton will wish a burned house, theft and terminal cancer on you. That is the level of his wit.

Meantime, I have been known to retreat from wedding receptions when the music causes blood to run out of my ears. The younger people seem to thrive on it. I simply don't understand but have a theory. The art of conversation is nearly dead among the younger crowd. You need only to read Clinton's posts to prove that point. They fill the room with noise to fill the vacuum in their brains. The constant need of being plugged into a cell phone and for portable video games or a blasting Walkman to isolate them from their surroundings are additional symptoms.

At 57, I admit I am getting old, prefer quiet venues and acoustic music, Musak free restaurants. But to each their own. If the noise offends, I leave. Certainly a musician should have the right to play at whatever sound level he feels suits his music.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 28 May 05 - 12:10 PM

"Certainly a musician should have the right to play at whatever sound level he feels suits his music."
Exactly my point.... There's a time for loud, and a time for not so loud...

"They fill the room with noise to fill the vacuum in their brains."
My, what an arrogant, elitist attitude you seem to have...

"The younger people seem to thrive on it"
Your old world is rapidly ageing
Please get out of the new one
If you can't lend your hand
For the times...

"The constant need of being plugged into a cell phone and for portable video games or a blasting Walkman to isolate them from their surroundings are additional symptoms."
Why is it not rather, that they make the CHOICE to adapt their surroundings to suit their own tastes? Maybe if our (their) surroundings weren't full of obsolete, cranky old twits afraid of change, trying to tell them what they should and shouldn't do all the time, they'd be more willing to participate...

Some of you folks come off as the most cliché of "Old People" stereotypes... do you wear your slippers to the mall too?

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 May 05 - 12:12 PM

Really loud music, especially with a throbbing beat, can stir you up and turn you on. But everybody has a right to choose it or not--not to have it inflicted on you. That's probably why you, at the wedding reception, and I, at the Celtic festival, were not happy to have it sprung on us. It's a question of expectations. At the Celtic festival I was hoping to hear more of the words, and other instruments than electric guitars.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 28 May 05 - 01:21 PM

At a wedding reception, it's the call of the bride and groom... THEY decide (or should decide) how loud or quiet the music is...

At the fest, the organizers decide...

If you don't like what either of them chose... your choice is the door...

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: kendall
Date: 28 May 05 - 03:34 PM

I will not pay to be annoyed, and many a public place has seen my backside.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: GUEST
Date: 28 May 05 - 03:36 PM

That buzzing sound you hear is YOU, fuckwit.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: SINSULL
Date: 28 May 05 - 06:07 PM

No further comments. No point in feeding the troll.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 May 05 - 09:21 PM

"There ya go, talking through your stupid hole again"

Ah - you've got me laughing again CH.... and GUEST...

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 May 05 - 09:39 PM

CH--

Somehow, CH, even without your mighty intellect there's a possible chance that we can (and did) figure that out.

Thank you, Apprentice "MG".

Sounds like you have the obnoxious stating of the obvious down pretty well.   Congratulations.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 28 May 05 - 11:13 PM

"many a public place has seen my backside."

Lucky for them... why don't you do us the same for us here?

Oh... right... We're not that lucky....

Oh well

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: GUEST
Date: 28 May 05 - 11:28 PM

As stated before, CH is nothing but a MG wannabe, but CH just comes across as an absolute boring pompous fool. He is not in the least bit funny, and is lacking in wit.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 May 05 - 11:35 PM

"Lacking in wit"--I'm afraid there's not much to choose there between the two--but at least CH has real gigs.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 28 May 05 - 11:39 PM

"He is not in the least bit funny"

Who said I was trying to be... there are more than enough failled attempts at humour here on mudcat already...

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 May 05 - 11:47 PM

CH--

Now you're recycling your old material. We heard you the first time.

(Well, at least it's ecologically sound.)

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: GUEST
Date: 28 May 05 - 11:49 PM

If CH is has real gigs he must not be in too much of a demand. Here it is a Saturday night and he trolling on the Mudcat. I guess he fills in the gaps on Wednesday night Open Mike gigs.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 29 May 05 - 12:09 AM

Yeah, I noticed that too. Let's give him the benefit of the doubt and say he had a paying gig on Friday and will have one on Sunday.

Of course, his level of frustration does not support his case.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 29 May 05 - 02:26 AM

"We heard you the first time."

Obviously not...

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: woodsie
Date: 29 May 05 - 05:06 AM

Reply to first post.

Fairport WERE a sixties rock band - I saw them in 1968 and they were loud then! Mind you the lot that call themselves Fairtport these days are a completly different bunch of blokes living off the reputation that those early pioneers built.

If I had walked out of concerts due to the volume being loud, over the last 40 years, I would have missed a huge slice of music history which I am proud to have witnessed first hand. Yes my hearing is a bit iffy these days - but it was worth it.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 29 May 05 - 06:26 AM

I would've given an eardrum to hear Sandy Denny sing back then!

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 29 May 05 - 10:11 PM

CH--

A little tolerance for others' viewpoints, ( just a little) would not be amiss, even for someone as omniscient as your good self.

Ever heard of tinnitus?--it sounds like you will, rather soon.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 29 May 05 - 10:41 PM

There are a BUNCH of things that probably cause tinnitus... loud music is NOT the only factor... (If it was, loud music would cause it in everyone... and it doesn not....)

I'd be happy to 'tolerate others viewpoints' if you weren't so high and mighty about them... But I find it's just easier to relate to such people on their own level...

"I would've given an eardrum to hear Sandy Denny sing back then!"
I'd give one of CNBs ear-drums to hear her back then too!
LOL

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: C-flat
Date: 30 May 05 - 10:17 AM

The main problem with hiring a band to play in a small venue comes from the fact that most bands will have a drummer, or in our case, a drummer and lots of other percussion.
Even without mic'ing the drum kit, a common practice to enable tone-shaping, the drums are going to be loud and so it's inevitable that the other instruments need to be louder to be heard above that.
Add to that the vocals, which would neccessarily need to be louder than everything else and you end up with a sound big enough to rattle a few slates loose!!
You can only turn down so far without it turning into a shed-builders convention!

C-flat.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 May 05 - 12:01 PM

CH--

We are not ridiculing the idea that you (and we) like loud music sometimes. You, however, are ridiculing us for wanting to choose when we hear loud music.

I trust you understand the difference.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 30 May 05 - 12:05 PM

"You are ridiculing us for wanting to choose when we hear loud music."

Oh, that's not what I'm ridiculing most here about!

:-P

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 May 05 - 10:04 PM

CH--

Sounds like you do not in fact understand the difference. If we are expecting to hear loud music, then fine, If not, it's not fine. Very simple.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 31 May 05 - 12:07 AM

"Many amplified folk band these days play at an unhealthy volume."

... is the fist line of this thread... and it sounds like a lot of whining and sucking to me...

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 31 May 05 - 07:51 AM

Acting dumb is a great Troll Act.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: GUEST
Date: 31 May 05 - 08:18 AM

Too bad in your case it's not an act

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 31 May 05 - 06:53 PM

I thank you!

Waits for applause - as usual - not a sausage...

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Uke
Date: 31 May 05 - 08:13 PM

Here is a plausible theory I have heard about loud music volume, which applies to bars and pubs.

Essentially, on those nights where people are there for conversation, social enjoyment etc. as well as live music, loud volume means people have to shout to be heard by the person next to them. Sooner or later the throat starts to get dry (helped along by cigarette smoke) necessitating its irrigation by alcoholic beverages.

Loud music thus helps the bar sell far more beer than quiet music.

I wouldn't be surprised if venue owners haven't over the years encouraged increasingly high volumes through PAs. Certainly, I know one local bar where the manager is always helpfully fiddling with the sound board.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: jacqui.c
Date: 31 May 05 - 08:46 PM

Loud music just drives me out of the pub and, since I would normally be driving and drink only water, for which the profit margin is unbelievably high, the landlord loses money!

(My son used to run a pub and loved those who drank soft drinks - he made a lot of money out of them!)

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Uke
Date: 31 May 05 - 09:09 PM

True Jacqui - though if you've paid to get in, you might put up with it. Beer, coke, lemonade... the more whistles wetted, the higher the take.

Another angle to this I heard from a friend's son who started an acoustic based Irish group, but found within 2 months they had to electrify and add bass and drums, a la your standard pub band, to get any bookings in licenced premises.

Now, you'd expect an Irish band is going to be noisy, but this was probably to add amplification possibilities of electric bass and a drumkit. The volume goes up, shouting ensues, throats get parched, liquid gets bought and downed. "Thems the paying gigs!"

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: MaineDog
Date: 31 May 05 - 10:02 PM

The trouble is that some people like the sound of distortion, like they used to get from Vacuum tube (valve) amplifiers in the old days. If the system doesn't produce distortion, they just turn it up more until it does. Even if they have kilowatts of power making us all deaf.

I heard a song about it at the Old Songs Festival a few years ago. It went something like

Mister soundman,
Turn me up loud---
I want to be heard
Over the crowd---

It also happens at dances and even in church these days.

Needless to say I am a great consumer of earplugs, but I hate having to
choose between conversation and safety.

MD

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Uke
Date: 31 May 05 - 11:55 PM

MaineDog - I agree, I remember loud volume music used to provide a certain physical sensation when I was tanked up student rock concerts.

As to the clashes between conversation, social life, music, these are really clashes of audience/patron/musician expectations. People may go to a pub to have a yarn - yet the band wants to be heard, wants to be more than just background music. Who is going to win that one - the one with a volume knob.

I'm not sure if anyone's mentioned this yet: They say that being irritated by loud noise is actually a symptom of hearing loss - it is your ears telling you to get away from potentially damaging frequencies and volume levels.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 02:35 AM

It works well in restaurants too... if we wanted people to eat quickly and get out (lunch time, quick turnaround required), we'd put loud, fast music on. It makes people chew quicker and the volume gets them excited and makes them want to get out and do things. When the expensive dishes were served (after 7.30pm), we turned it down and put the slow, classical stuff on... people relaxed, ate slower and thus more, talked more to cover the silences and thus drank more.... They'd sit around more and drink the expensive brandies..... not what you want in a pub where you want fast turnaround and multiple bookings.

I suspect they do the same in boutiques and clothing stores so that you get in the club mood and end up buying clothes that will look fantastic on the beach or in the clubs of Ibiza, but absolutely ridiculous on the No. 15 bus to Paddington.

LTS

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: GUEST,saulgoldie
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 09:22 AM

My complaint about last night's house concert was not the gig volume per se. The singer sang un-amped. But the bassist who accompanied her did have an amp. And his enthusiastic bassing totally ran over her words to the point that we couldn't understand them.

This was a house concert that seated only about 25 people. The singer would have been fine without the bass altogether and with no amp. But *with* him, he should have played a much more subtle background allowing us to hear the singer and her guitar clearly. We left at intermission.

I have seen this tendency with other bassists, and it galls me each time. The bass is important. But it is not the star. Bassists who do not understand this should be drawn and quartered in a vat of salt water.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Cluin
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 06:37 PM

Get on stage with a drummer. Then the volume of EVERYthing has to go up. I am always amazed to see them fitting mics in the kick drums and over their kit, when playing a small venue. Like they need it.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: GUEST,saulgoldie
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 11:57 AM

No thanks! That is why my personal definition of folk music specifies that there be NO drum sets. Bongos, bohdrans, fine. But no drum sets. Unless they are played MOST subtley, like with Pentangle.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: melodeonboy
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 12:55 PM

Your theory sounds quite plausible, Uke.

Another theory that I've heard (and it is only a theory: I have no proof) is that people drink more when they're not talking (or, presumably, engaged in an activity, such as darts).

In this case, loud music and/or tellies would increase profits.

It sounds believable to me.