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The Weavers and the McCarthy Era

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Deckman 18 Mar 04 - 07:29 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 18 Mar 04 - 08:27 PM
GUEST,MAG at work 18 Mar 04 - 08:53 PM
Amos 18 Mar 04 - 09:24 PM
Amos 18 Mar 04 - 09:33 PM
GUEST,Mary Katherine 18 Mar 04 - 09:34 PM
Deckman 18 Mar 04 - 09:45 PM
Deckman 18 Mar 04 - 09:58 PM
Art Thieme 18 Mar 04 - 10:14 PM
Deckman 18 Mar 04 - 10:14 PM
GUEST,Obie 18 Mar 04 - 10:25 PM
Amos 18 Mar 04 - 10:44 PM
Joe Offer 19 Mar 04 - 12:53 AM
Deckman 19 Mar 04 - 04:42 AM
Ellenpoly 19 Mar 04 - 05:32 AM
JJ 19 Mar 04 - 08:50 AM
Don Firth 19 Mar 04 - 02:23 PM
Deckman 19 Mar 04 - 02:40 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 19 Mar 04 - 03:27 PM
Deckman 19 Mar 04 - 03:40 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 19 Mar 04 - 03:47 PM
Deckman 19 Mar 04 - 04:26 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 19 Mar 04 - 04:47 PM
Deckman 19 Mar 04 - 05:05 PM
JudyB 19 Mar 04 - 05:42 PM
Don Firth 19 Mar 04 - 06:34 PM
Gareth 19 Mar 04 - 07:11 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 19 Mar 04 - 07:34 PM
Deckman 19 Mar 04 - 07:56 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 19 Mar 04 - 08:37 PM
Deckman 19 Mar 04 - 08:55 PM
Deckman 19 Mar 04 - 09:46 PM
Don Firth 19 Mar 04 - 10:23 PM
JJ 20 Mar 04 - 08:18 AM
Charley Noble 20 Mar 04 - 09:27 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 20 Mar 04 - 06:23 PM
Bill Hahn//\\ 20 Mar 04 - 06:51 PM
Deckman 20 Mar 04 - 07:16 PM
cobber 20 Mar 04 - 07:27 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 20 Mar 04 - 07:27 PM
Bill Hahn//\\ 20 Mar 04 - 07:46 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 20 Mar 04 - 08:04 PM
Art Thieme 21 Mar 04 - 12:32 AM
Joe Offer 21 Mar 04 - 01:12 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 21 Mar 04 - 01:21 AM
Charley Noble 21 Mar 04 - 10:14 AM
Art Thieme 21 Mar 04 - 12:18 PM
Art Thieme 21 Mar 04 - 12:25 PM
Franz S. 21 Mar 04 - 09:22 PM
Franz S. 21 Mar 04 - 09:25 PM
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Subject: RE: The Weavers and the McCarthy Era
From: Deckman
Date: 18 Mar 04 - 07:29 PM

I guess I'm on a talking jag! This thread has triggured some memories. I mentioned that Pete Seeger, Sonny Terry and C.J. Bouroughs (sp?) stayed at my house about 57 or 58. It was when they were in town for a very successful, and large, concert at the Moore theater. I was living with my parents, I think I was 18, and of course I was very thrilled that I would be able hang around these august folks. But my poor Father! He was a very successful home builder, quite republican in his views, though to his credit, he certainly was not anything that today would be called conservitive.

But, he and Pete tangled, and tangled hard, that very first evening at the dinner table. Pete started talking about his unionizing activities, sang a couple of songs at the table, etc. I watched my Dad getting tighter and tighter. Finally, he cussed in Finn and stormed out of the room. My Father's native tongue was Finnish, and when he lost his temper, he always cussed in Finn. Pretty soon Pete stormed out and dissapeared into his room. I went downstairs with Sonny and C.J. where our bedrooms were.

For the next couple of days, I chauffeured them around town, doing the interviews and stuff. My Dad didn't speak to me during this time. But it wasn't more than a few weeks later that Dad heard something on the radio, or maybe the press, where Pete was being vilifyed. Dad got quite upset about this.

If we had another beer here, I'd tell you of my Dad's reaction to Sonny Terry! CHEERS, Bob (I do go on, don't I)?


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Subject: RE: The Weavers and the McCarthy Era
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Mar 04 - 08:27 PM

Steinbeck received the Pulitzer Prize in 1940- I think of him as a voice of the dirty thirties and the dustbowl days. And Dos Passos with USA- FDR was in the White House, and make-work projects and some reforms were underway. Both writers had entered into the reading program in my highschool, although there was some backlash against Dos Passos- we were told how we should interpret him. This was just before WW2.
WW2 added to the population shifts that began in the thirties. Jobs had increased exponentially, and I don't think that the Weavers, Guthrie and the others really affected the thinking of the average American. People were just too busy climbing the ladder. We listened to the songs and learned to appreciate folk music, but the beliefs of the singers didn't penetrate our skulls, at least not those of the people I knew. Action came a little later, in the 1950s, when the struggle for equal rights (not only for blacks but for the farm laborers) started to receive support from the more socially conscious portion of the population.

Now this view is biased by my own experiences in the circle that I belonged to and therefore myopic. Reading through histories of the post-war era could well change my opinions, but I have deliberately kept this on a personal level- I think the initiator of this thread wanted that. The writers of history may well place the emphasis differently.


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Subject: RE: The Weavers and the McCarthy Era
From: GUEST,MAG at work
Date: 18 Mar 04 - 08:53 PM

The initiator of this thread does not seem to have posted since starting it. Hshe (he/she) needs to realize that many people from that time are quite leery of talking to people they don't know well.

The father of a good friend was turned in by his brother back then. They did not speak for 40 years. The stepfather of another colleague attempted suicide by carbon monoxide so his family could collect on the insurance because he was blacklisted. These are all too real stories.

John Henry Falk, a liberal, was blacklisted because he told the committee what he thought of them.

Pete Seeger pretty much invented the college circuit back then so he could support his family.

Didn't anyone else cry at *The Way we Were*? The divorces were real, too.

Pete Seeger pleaded the first (sorry Art; not the 5th) saying he had the right as an American to believe any damn thing he wanted to. Talk about change: that was the beginning of the end of the hearings. and if you don't know about Pete and the Smothers Brothers, go back to Popular Culture 101. You don't think that had an effect on consciousness?

Guys like the Chad Mitchell Trio -- where do you think they learned?

We were singing "Barry's Boys" and "Harry Pollick" in high school.

Check out the history of the Sing Out! of the day and The Weavers.

The purists are always with us.

End of rant; I'm going to go watch my copy of *Daniel* and pack for my weekend at Singtime Frolics.


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Subject: RE: The Weavers and the McCarthy Era
From: Amos
Date: 18 Mar 04 - 09:24 PM

Seeger on hs Communism

Intersting perspective!


A


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Subject: RE: The Weavers and the McCarthy Era
From: Amos
Date: 18 Mar 04 - 09:33 PM

From the same site, a Bio of Pete.

A


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Subject: RE: The Weavers and the McCarthy Era
From: GUEST,Mary Katherine
Date: 18 Mar 04 - 09:34 PM

You wrote:
This thread has triggured some memories. I mentioned that Pete Seeger, Sonny Terry and C.J. Bouroughs (sp?) stayed at my house about 57 or 58.

I'm guessing: did you mean J.C. Burris, who was Sonny Terry's cousin?

Mary Katherine


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Subject: RE: The Weavers and the McCarthy Era
From: Deckman
Date: 18 Mar 04 - 09:45 PM

Mary ... Yes, that's it excatly. I only met him the one time. Thank you for the correction. Bob


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Subject: RE: The Weavers and the McCarthy Era
From: Deckman
Date: 18 Mar 04 - 09:58 PM

I just dug out an old reel to reel tape that Sonny and his cousin J.C. BURRIS made for me during that visit. It might have been that first evening when Pete and my Dad were upstairs sulking. We went into the basement and I turned on an old Webcor tape recorder, and they let fly for a half hour, two harmonicas and the singing. It was the first time I'd ever heard Sonny do the "Fox Chase." It's been a few years now, but I think that was the name of it! Bob


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Subject: RE: The Weavers and the McCarthy Era
From: Art Thieme
Date: 18 Mar 04 - 10:14 PM

you don't plead the first. it's the fifth.

We do seem to be off the mark on these looks backwards---just enough to make this a pretty humorous thread. No wonder historians never get it right. Oral history is only one guy's opinion and we see stuff the way we think we saw it but... But the memories get fuzzy like a blown awry sky-written message

Pete wasn't allowed to sing at the hearings. He wanted to but didn't get but a few notes out. Then he told them that they had no legal right to ask him these questions. Saying that diverged away from strictly adhering to the rules about taking the 5th ammendment. The HUAC guys just wanted to discredit those being questioned by just ASKING the questions and letting the turds hall where they may. Then "guilt by inuendo" took over and folks' lives were ruined. The media went along too---until Ed Murrow had the guts (spelled BALLS) to take on McCarthy.

Now, that's how I remember it. Could be wrong. But I don't think so. (When your memory goes, forget it !!!) Pete always has been a huge hero and mentor for me.

The Weavers huge hit was On Top Of Old Smoky. It stayed on the charts at numero uno longer than any other song in history. That's a record not likely to be broken 'cause now the music industry won't let songs stay up there very long. One song is pulled so another can squeeze all the dollars it can from the buying public. The record company went nuts 'cause on the other side of that Weavers hit single 78 rpm record was Tzena Tzena which was almost as big a hit as Smoky. Now they couldn't issue it separately and maximize the bottom line.

Again, I just call 'em like I sees 'em. ----------- I might could be be wrong. One side of the 78 could've been Goodnight Irene?! Or was it So Long It's Been Good To Know Ya? Or maybe Philladelphia Lawyer?---No, that particular song by Woody G. was a hit for Wilma Lee and Stony Cooper. The Weavers were best in concert---- without Gordon Jenkins and his orchestra. And I'm happy to be able to say that I managed to see every incarnation of that special quartet. First with Pete, then Eric Darling and then with Mudcatter (sometimes) Frank Hamilton, abd finally, with Bernie Krause.

Look at the thread here that was named something like "What Was Lee Hays Really Like?" There'll be all kinds of insights there for you good folks.

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: The Weavers and the McCarthy Era
From: Deckman
Date: 18 Mar 04 - 10:14 PM

To the "GUEST" that started this thread: I also wonder why you have not commented since your intial posting. I think I'll decline to contribute more thoughts until you tell us more of yourself. Bob


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Subject: RE: The Weavers and the McCarthy Era
From: GUEST,Obie
Date: 18 Mar 04 - 10:25 PM

Bob & Don,
What is more important than who started this thread is the story that is being told. The insight from your recollections is fantastic, and this thread is being read seen by thousands lurkers who have little or no knowledge of a black time in history. That in itself far surpasses the educational value of someone's term paper! Please keep the story going!
         Obie


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Subject: RE: The Weavers and the McCarthy Era
From: Amos
Date: 18 Mar 04 - 10:44 PM

"What Was Lee Hays Really Like" .

See also links to threads about Ronnie Gilbert and Fred Hellerman at top of this one.

A


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Subject: RE: The Weavers and the McCarthy Era
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Mar 04 - 12:53 AM

Don't worry about the anonymity of the first post. The poster may be shy. I am fascinated by this thread, and you know my name. I crosslinked all the threads about the original Weavers (see top).
-Joe Offer, limping on WEBTV in Florida-


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Subject: RE: The Weavers and the McCarthy Era
From: Deckman
Date: 19 Mar 04 - 04:42 AM

Amos, you've posted some very interesting background material. Thank you. And I'm enjoying everyone's comments. Bob


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Subject: RE: The Weavers and the McCarthy Era
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 19 Mar 04 - 05:32 AM

I have to agree that I for one don't mind if the original poster never shows again. For all we know, it could have been someone trolling a lot of different websites posting a similar message just hoping others would do his/her homework for them.

But this is such a worthy thread, and so much to learn! I am always appreciative that people are willing to open their minds, hearts and memories, especially the difficult memories, and share them on these threads. It is what first attracted me to Mudcat, and I'm sure I'm not alone in this.

So Thank you Guest for getting this rolling, and an even GREATER thank you for all who are posting such valuable pieces of folk history..xx..e


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Subject: RE: The Weavers and the McCarthy Era
From: JJ
Date: 19 Mar 04 - 08:50 AM

Suggested reading: "Lonesome Traveler: The Life of Lee Hays," by Doris Willens


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Subject: RE: The Weavers and the McCarthy Era
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Mar 04 - 02:23 PM

I concur with much of what Q said above about people simply getting on about their business, but I do have to disagree a bit with the idea that the Weavers had very little effect. I think we're missing an important intermediate step here.

In 1949 (if my memory serves me) songs like Goodnight Irene, Tzena Tzena Tzena, and On Top of Old Smoky began issuing from radios and juke boxes, along with a song I had heard some years before, sung by a guy who was regarded at the time as Seattle's answer to Burl Ives, Ivar Haglund: The Frozen Logger, written by Pacific Northwest author and collector of Paul Bunyan tales, James Stevens.

1949 was the year I graduated from high school and entered the University of Washington. It was not more than a year or two after this that I began running into people who were taking up guitars and banjos and learning folk songs. Claire Hess, a young woman with whom I was keeping steady company, put a guitar in my hands for the first time and taught me G, C, and D7. She was learning songs from a copy of A Treasury of Folk Songs compiled by Sylvia and John Kolb, Bantam Books, New York, 1948 (35¢), and a stack of Weavers records. Shortly thereafter, I heard Walt Robertson sing in concert for the first time, and I was hooked! It was shortly after this that I met several other people who were making varying degrees of progress learning to play and sing. Among them was Sandy Paton, who was residing in Seattle at the time. I venture to say that all of us had been influenced to one degree or another by the sudden burst of folk music onto the pop music scene made by the Weavers—even if they did vanish from sight (temporarily) shortly thereafter.

This influence was a moving force. When the Weavers were hunkering down from the Blacklist, the Gateway Singers leaped into the breach. The Gateway Singers were frankly and openly patterned after the Weavers (three guys and a strong-voiced female singer, with prominent guitar and 5-string banjo instrumentation), and even though they branched out later, at first their repertoire consisted of Weavers' songs. Then, in 1959, along came the Kingston Trio with their recording of Tom Dooley and the Great Folk Scare was off and running. Roam through (this web site a bit and check some of the links, especially here and here. Various groups (such as the Kingston Trio) and individuals acknowledge the influence the Weavers had on them.

With that wave to surf on, along came Joan Baez, Peter Paul and Mary, and others, then came Bob Dylan and a spate of singer-songwriters, like Tom Paxton, Phil Ochs—and from here on you can fill in the rest by yourself.

One could make a pretty convincing case that when the juggernaut first got rolling, although it was being nudged by people such as Burl Ives, Woody Guthrie, Susan Reed and Richard Dyer-Bennet, it was the Weavers who gave it the strongest push.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: The Weavers and the McCarthy Era
From: Deckman
Date: 19 Mar 04 - 02:40 PM

Don ... well said! Bob


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Subject: RE: The Weavers and the McCarthy Era
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Mar 04 - 03:27 PM

Don Firth's post makes we realize that location was important to our exposure, and reaction, to the earlier bloom of folksingers- those before 1955.
Don mentions concerts and exposure which we never had in our area. Lead Belly gave a concert at the University of Texas, and was one of the few that I remember. We connected him with his prison days and pardons but not with the equality movement. Obviously he didn't sing and we hadn't heard of his "Bourgeois Blues." The club music scene was developing in Austin, but western swing and pseudo-New Orleans of the Victoria Spivey kind are about all I remember. The Weavers were known only on record; I don't remember any concerts or club performances.

The first attempts toward equal education opportunities were underway in Texas. Through court action, a black student by the name of Sweat was admitted to the Law School, the first at the University. He was taught in the old Law Building in a class of one. We never saw him on campus. Among the students he was seldom mentioned. At the time, a deoderant named "Mum" was widely advertised. In a university parade, one of the floats has a sign on the back reading "Mum's the Word For Sweat." That seems to have been the general attitude at the time.

It all seems quite different from the environment enjoyed by Firth and others who have posted here.


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Subject: RE: The Weavers and the McCarthy Era
From: Deckman
Date: 19 Mar 04 - 03:40 PM

To "Q": I'm enjoying your comments a great deal. By things you've mentioned, I'm guessing that I'm about a dozen years your junior. The time frame of your experiences was pivitol in our country in so many, many ways. Jim Lehrer, the T.V. news journalist, wrote a wonderful biography titled "A Bus Of My Own." In it, he mentions something that I certainly saw when I was in the Army. That was the forced intergration of the races. The barriers between the races started to dimminish within my first 24 hours in the service.

Going back to "The Weavers," so many of their early popular songs were of African origin. By the time I went into the Army, 1955, I think, I knew many of these songs. We had great singing sessions in the barracks.

And yes, I well remember "mum." (it stung!) Bob


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Subject: RE: The Weavers and the McCarthy Era
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 19 Mar 04 - 03:47 PM

Art,

Pete Seeger did plead the first ammendment, not the fifth. His whole point was that he had the right to free speech which gave him the right NOT to disuss his political views before the HUAC. That was a unique thing to do obviously because as you point out, most people would plead the fifth ammendment. This led to a contempt of Congress citation for which Seeger went to trail and was convicted for a yearlong jail sentence. The sentence was never served as the case was appealed, and 6 years later it was thrown out of the court.

I also have to disagree with Don's statment that the Weavers gave folk music "the strongest push" and Deckmen's statment that the Weaver's "started it all". Giving them credit for that "push" almost ignores all the individuals that led up to that "moment".   It is almost like giving the credit for winning a baseball game to the relief pitcher who comes in to strike out the last batter. While it is a pivitol moment and a turning point, we can't ignore all the other individuals and movements that led to the Weavers. Folk music had been building as a commercial entity since the early part of the 20th century.

The collectors who were working hard to preserve these songs and our heritage are largely forgotten, except for the high profile names like "Lomax". Carl Sandberg was probably the first "folksinger" who brought the music to his literary audiences. Folk Festivals began cropping up in the 1930's. Mostly local affairs, but they gave their audiences a chance to remember what made their community important.

Politics played a huge role from the late 30's and throughout the 40's.   While we often think of the left and their role in folk music, we should also take pause to remember the role the political right had in folk music. I was reading Ronald Cohen's brilliant book "Rainbow Race" and he discussed Bascom Lamar Lunsford who organized the Mountain Dance and Folk Festival. Very conservative as well as reportedly having some very "un PC" views.   John Lomax was also very conservative.   Their views was that the music served as a reflection on the values of the nation and were not used as political tools.

The roots of the Weaver's can be found in the Almanac Singers. The Almanac's were part of a 1940's folk scene that included numerous "hill billy" acts on radio, Josh White Jr. performing in nightclubs, Burl Ives on stage and screen, Marais and Miranda on radio, and so many others.   This helped build a climate that led to the success of the Weaver's.

I will not disagree with the importance of the Weaver's as part of the folk music chain. Their link strengthened that chain and lengthened it's links to present day.


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Subject: RE: The Weavers and the McCarthy Era
From: Deckman
Date: 19 Mar 04 - 04:26 PM

Ron, As usual, you are quite correct. I was basing my importance of the Weavers impact due to their music being available on records and radio. It was this fact that caused them to have such a wider exposure. And I love your analogy of the Relief Pitcher! Very apt. And again, I have to agree with you in Lomax's Conservative bent.

Many years ago I met, and was lucky enough to share a concert stage with Jim Garland. I think he was from Kentucky, and as I recall, he was a cousin of Aunt Molly Jackson. (I hope that I'm accurate here).

The occasion was a three day festival at a small college. During that weekend, I made several opportunities to visit privatly with him and to get a strong sense of appreciation of the miners struggles in those regions.

Again, I had no desire to give short shrift to those that went before and paved the way. I appreciate your comments. CHEERS, Bob


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Subject: RE: The Weavers and the McCarthy Era
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 19 Mar 04 - 04:47 PM

Thanks Bob. I do think the Weaver's played an EXTREMELY important part in the history of the folk revival, AND an extrememly important part in the history of the McCarthy era.   I always try to use discussions like this to remind myself as well as others that this music we love was made possible by many unsung heroes.

One observation about the Weavers.   We tend to remember those incredible live albums from Carnegie Hall and their output that came AFTER the McCarthy hearings.   The Weavers recordings on Decca sold more copies and received more airplay during it's day. THAT was the commercial success.   Their post-McCarthy recordings may not have sold in as large of numbers or reached as many ears, but it reached the ears of the people who would carry it on to another generation.

There are so many names that deserve greater recognition. Just off the top of my head - Roger Sprung, Erik Darling, Frank Hamilton, Aunt Molly Jackson, Sis Cunningham, Moses Asch, Jean Ritchie, Josef Marais, Mike Porco, Izzy Young, Earl Robinson, Sam Hinton and so many more. Each added a link to that chain.   Without their contributions, I don't know if we would be talking about a folk revival here today.


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Subject: RE: The Weavers and the McCarthy Era
From: Deckman
Date: 19 Mar 04 - 05:05 PM

Ron ... You've sure got that right! Bob


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Subject: RE: The Weavers and the McCarthy Era
From: JudyB
Date: 19 Mar 04 - 05:42 PM

And Frank and Ann Warner, Jean Ritchie,Tony Kraber, Bill Bonyun, Oscar Brand, Joe Glazer, Malvina Reynolds, and Cisco Huston to name a few more.

Charley Noble, borrowing JudyB's nice PC


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Subject: RE: The Weavers and the McCarthy Era
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Mar 04 - 06:34 PM

You're absolutely right, Ron. I should have expanded my last paragraph to include the people you mention in your last paragraph. Carl Sandburg, with his poetry readings and singing at colleges and universities did a great deal to call people's attention to folk music, as did a substantial number of others. But to a large degree this was regarded as pretty esoteric stuff by most people, if they were aware of it at all. It wasn't until 1949 (I remember this pretty well), when the Weavers started pouring out of radios and juke boxes, that folk music hit the mass media with any impact at all. Suddenly, for the first time, a large number of people were introduced to songs like Wimoweh, Kisses Sweeter Than Wine, On Top of Old Smoky, and So Long, It's Been Good to Know You, interspersed with songs sung by Mel Torme, Patti Page, Vaughan Monroe, and Rosemary Clooney. Although a bit strange to people's ears, it was not all that esoteric. In fact, it was pretty accessible. And that was "The Work of the Weavers."

Certainly without taking any credit from the many people who went before, there's no gainsaying the widespread effect the Weavers had when they first emerged on the pop music scene in 1949, prior to the blacklist.   

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: The Weavers and the McCarthy Era
From: Gareth
Date: 19 Mar 04 - 07:11 PM

A superb and objective thread. I must confess I came to it late, as from the the Title I thought it was going to be another trolling rant - I was wrong, repeat wrong.

As a spotty youth in London town, in the early 70's, I can recall listening to old Guthrie, Almanac anbd Weavers records. They fitted, and perhaps infuenced my political thinking.

Bob (Deckman) Art, MAg and others keep up these reminicences, for this is history, and must be recorded.

For if we do not record history, and learn, we are doomed to repeat it.

Minor points. My 80+ year old Mother can still sing such songs as the "16th Brigade" (Spanish Civil War) and the Ballad of Harry Pollitt, learnt from her student days in the late 1940's - University of Wales - Cardiff.

And on a drift, she was conscripted into the "Womens Land Army" and spent a year or two in East Anglia. She has some vestigle memory of the Songs of the Mighty 8th USAAF. And Glen Miller. I dearn't play my VCR Tape of "Memphis Belle" - it reduces her to tears. And no I'am not aking why.

Keep it up 'Cos this is real Folk History !

Gareth


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Subject: RE: The Weavers and the McCarthy Era
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 19 Mar 04 - 07:34 PM

Don, I want to be clear - I do think the Weavers had a HUGE effect on shaping what we consider to be "folk" music.   

My point is that the Weavers were NOT the first artists to bring folk music to a general public AND their success was ONLY possible because of the work of others. The songs you mentioned - Wimoweh, Kisses Sweeter Than Wine, On Top of Old Smoky, and So Long, It's Been Good to Know You - all songs that were either written or collected by some of the names that have been mentioned in this thread.

I disagree with you when you say "it wasn't until 1949 (I remember this pretty well), when the Weavers started pouring out of radios and juke boxes, that folk music hit the mass media with any impact at all". In hindsight it may SEEM as if the Weavers started it all, but folk music had been heard on the Top 40 or Hit Parade much earlier. In the 1940's Burl Ives had hits with songs like "Lavendar Blue". Ella Fitzgerald had a huge hit during WWII with "A Tisket, A Tasket". That is an old children's folk song - "Kitty Kitty Kasket". Those early 1950 Weaver recordings sold in the same numbers as the others, and THOSE recordings of the Weavers did not turn on a generation to folk music. That would come a few years later.

If you ever find an old copy of Billboard magazine from that era, you won't find a Country Music chart- they called it Folk Music. This is well before the Weaver's became a group. One could argue that the Carter Family were the first group to bring folk music to a commercial audience.   Folk music could also be found on Broadway in the 1940's through plays like "Sing Out Sweet Land" where folk music was the basis of the show. Paul Robeson recorded spirituals going back to the 1920's. Let's not forget radio (a subject dear to my heart!!). Alan Lomax had a program on CBS, Josef Marais on NBC and Oscar Brand began hosting a radio program in 1945 where a group of musicians without a name sang songs. That group became the Weavers.

Again, the songs that you mention, and the recordings that the Weavers made for Decca, were very popular.   If you listen to those recordings (with Gordon Jenkins orchestra), they do not sound much different than the recordings of Patti Page, Mel Torme or other "hits" of the time. The Weavers sound of the early 1950s was a real commercial sound. These are the songs that America was introduced to.

Those of us who love folk music, we tend to remember the "acoustic" sounds of the later year of the Weavers, recordings they made starting with the historic 1955 Carnegie Hall concert. Remember, the Weavers had "broken up" so that concert was really their first "reunion"!. This is the sound that turned on a generation of "folk" fans, but those records never sold in the same numbers as their earlier Decca recordings. The "folk revival" that most of us seem to remember begins with the Kingston Trio, but as I hope I have been able to remind everyone, the folk revival began decades earlier.


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Subject: RE: The Weavers and the McCarthy Era
From: Deckman
Date: 19 Mar 04 - 07:56 PM

Ron ... Keep it up. You ARE making a convert of me! It's rather natural that I would identify with the group that first made MY aquaintance, isn't it.

By the way, I have a copy of the script for "Sing Out, Sweet Land." I think this was one of the early productions that "made" Burl Ives. It might of been his debut on the stage. I sit ready to be corrected.

Ron, do you suppose that I should put this on the MUDCAT auction to benifit MUDCAT. Why don't you PM me, please. With great respect to you sir ... Bob


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Subject: RE: The Weavers and the McCarthy Era
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Mar 04 - 08:37 PM

Ron Olesko has me trying to remember just what interested me in folk music. Being from the southwest, many of the cowboy songs and western poems were known to me, and we sang them indoors or out, riding on school buses and even, sometimes, on horseback. My home area was over 50% Spanish- speaking. so we knew many of those songs as well. With college came the bawdy ballads of Oscar Brand. The Kingston Trio became a part of it, as well as a collection of old recordings of Irish melodies of my grandmother's- mostly commercial arrangements as I remember. We listened to the Weavers, but I think the scratchy recordings of Jimmie Rodgers and his yodels (my father had collected them), and of the jug bands and the like were even more appreciated. Rather a strange melange, but typical, I think, of folk music influences outside of the major centers, and outside of the Appalachian-Piedmont, and in my part of America.
I am probably getting the order and dates mixed up, but at my age, memories sort of blend together.

Does anyone remember Walter Winchell? His "newscasts" were widely listened to. I remember he made some remarks about the German Sangerunde (Sp.?) Hall in Austin, TX, outside of which we drank gallon upon gallon of dark beer in their Garten. He misfired (as he often did) by accusing it of being a Nazi center, but nearly all of the Germans there were descendants of settlers who came during the 19th century. Of course he was taken seriously by people from outside of central Texas. In some ways he was a tinpot McCarthy. This was 1940, the year before I was invited to serve in the Army.


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Subject: RE: The Weavers and the McCarthy Era
From: Deckman
Date: 19 Mar 04 - 08:55 PM

"Q" ... I'm so enjoying your posts. Please keep it up. Of course I well remember Walter winchell. As an up and comming "newsman, he made a LOT of mistakes, and he also expanded the art. But he was never known for his veracity. Thanks again, Bob


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Subject: RE: The Weavers and the McCarthy Era
From: Deckman
Date: 19 Mar 04 - 09:46 PM

So ... "Q"! You were invited, as you say, to enjoy WW2 in 1941. I'll bet you have some stories to tell. Where did you serve? Bob


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Subject: RE: The Weavers and the McCarthy Era
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Mar 04 - 10:23 PM

Not to belabor the point, but to try to clarify what I am saying: I do not mean to imply that I think the Weavers started the whole folk music revival. I don't think that any more than I think (as some do) that The Kingston Trio started the folk music revival. I'm fully aware of those who went before.

In most people's minds, cowboy songs, country songs, and folk songs all came out of the same bucket (and, of course, in a way, they did). Folk songs were occasionally sung by singers such as Ella Fitzgerald (I remember that, back as far as 1940, I think. An early hit for Ella), and occasionally a singer of folk songs made it into the charts. The Carter Family, although a genuine folk phenomenon in their own right, were generally assumed by most people at the time to fall under the heading of "hillbilly" or "Country and Western" (which included The Sons of the Pioneers, Gene Autry, and the Hoosier Hotshots).

When I was a wee tot, I vaguely recall hearing Alan Lomax on a series of programs on folk music that he did on The American School of the Air. This was around 1939-40. This was probably why, when I became actively interested, I had the feeling that I'd heard a lot of these songs before. I was also aware of "Sing Out Sweet Land," and I had heard Marias and Miranda on the radio (it was a real thrill to actually meet them at one of the Berkeley Folk Festivals in the early Sixties), and although one heard a lot of "Negro Spirituals" on the radio, erroneously or not, I think most people regarded this in a category separate from folk music.

In the early Forties, my dad and I listened regularly to the Sunday morning radio program of a guy named Ivar Hagland. Haglund was a local, had a voice a bit like Burl Ives on an off day, and accompanied himself by playing an occasional chord on the guitar. He told stories and sang songs about the early days around Puget Sound, and had guests on his program like James Stevens, the man who wrote The Frozen Logger (in 1959, I had both Ivar Haglund and James Stevens as guest on my television series! That was a real snort!). In the mid-Forties, I heard Burl Ives on the radio, doing a program about the history of the Erie Canal. He told stories and sang songs, and I learned more about the Erie Canal from that program than I did in any history class. Also, shortly thereafter, I heard a legendary broadcast by Carl Sandburg, reading his poetry and singing folk songs, transcribed (I believe is the word) from a live performance at the University of Chicago (if I remember correctly). A friend of mine had an album of Richard Dyer-Bennet 78s. In 1948, I saw a movie called Glamour Girl starring folk singer Susan Reed. Apart from the pleasure of seeing and hearing Susan Reed play and sing many songs, the movie itself was singularly gawdawful (plot summary here). Burl Ives appeared in four movies up through 1949, Smoky (1946), Green Grass of Wyoming (1948), Station West (1948), and So Dear to My Heart (1949), in which he sang a lot and played, essentially, himself. It wasn't until later, especially The Big Country and Cat on a Hot Tin Roof that anybody learned that the sucker could really act!

So folk music was definitely out there. By all means. But again I say, most of this was pretty specialized.

Out here on the West Coast, there were not very many people who were aware of the Almanac Singers at the time they were performing, or of many other performers that some folks back East may have been aware of. The San Francisco Bay Area folks, particularly those in Berkeley, were probably more aware than folks in Seattle. But that tends to substantiate the point that I am making: that the Weavers, with there slicked-up Gordon Jenkins arrangements and all, were the breakthrough group that brought folk music, at least in that form, to the majority of American people—or at least, up here in this benighted corner of the country. And identified it, not as pop and not as country, but specifically as "folk songs." Their later records (without Gordy and his baton), such as "The Weavers at Carnegie Hall" and their Christmas Concert, were much better. Much more alive. However, at least here in Seattle and environs, very shortly after those first manifestations in 1949 of the Weavers issuing from radios and juke boxes, there was a notable increase in guitar sales, and some pretty intense searching of hock shops for 5-string banjos, which, at least around here, were pretty rare. Most music stores thought you were off your rocker when you asked about 5-string banjos. Like asking for a five-string ukulele.

Maybe my view of the impact of the Weavers was just a local phenomenon, but . . . .

For anyone unaware of what led up the folk music revival in this country, Romancing the Folk: Public Memory and American Roots Music by Benjamin Filene (University of North Carolina Press, Chapel Hill and Londen, 2000) gives a pretty good overview. Check it out.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: The Weavers and the McCarthy Era
From: JJ
Date: 20 Mar 04 - 08:18 AM

I think Burl Ives' Broadway debut was in Rodgers and Hart's THE BOYS FROM SYRACUSE in 1938.


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Subject: RE: The Weavers and the McCarthy Era
From: Charley Noble
Date: 20 Mar 04 - 09:27 AM

Our family used to love to listen to the Burl Ives albums in the 1940's. But that was before he testified before HUAC and revealed the names of his friends and associates who sang at various left-labor union meetings or other progressive special events in NYC. My uncle was one of those whose concert career was badly damaged by these disclosures, some would say self-serving disclosures. Of course, no one could say now how well they would hold up under the tremendous pressure generated at those hearings, although some of us may yet have that opportunity if the Bush Administration "wins" another 4 years.

I really appreciate this kind of thread, and join in thanking our shy guest for starting it.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble, whose only "Red File" was a copy of his application for one


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Subject: RE: The Weavers and the McCarthy Era
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 20 Mar 04 - 06:23 PM

Don Firth, I wasn't around in 1950 when the Weaver's started (born in 1957) so admittedly the information I have on that era is from reading various histories as well as interviewing performers from that era, including several ex-Weavers.

I want to be clear about my statements, in no way was I trying to deminish the importance of the Weavers and the inspiration they provided to others.   

I am amazed that their 1950 Decca records would have inspired people to run out and buy banjos and guitars in Seattle or anywhere. Their success was due to Gordon Jenkins pushing their demo to Decca records, and then the subsequent recordings he made with them. The "hits" that had during the Decca era were so heavily orchestrated that it is difficult to discern a banjo and guitar.

My thought would be that people who were inspired to buy guitars and banjos in the late 1940's probably were more inspired by the work of People's Songs.   While born in NYC, there were "offices" set up around the country, and I believe the Seattle area would have been a key area as labor organizing was very active in the region.

The Weavers did not become a "name" until early 1950. "Goodnight Irene" hit the charts in June of 1950 at the same time Red Channels was released and a television show that the Weavers were offered was cancelled. By late 1950 the Weavers had released several hit songs including Wimoweh, So Long It's Been Good to Know You and On Top of Old Smokey (all orchestrated with Gordon Jenkins).   More hits were following, but by summer of 1951 the magazine Counterattack published a story highlighting the "communist" ties the Weavers had. Shortly afterwards they were cancelled from an NBC appearance, the American Legion was organizing a letter writing campaign to keep the Weaver's out of the Ohio State Fair and soon they were being cancelled from other appearances. They struggled on with a few bookings in 1952 and in December of 1952 they began their now famous "sabbatical". In 1953 Decca not only stopped releasing new Weavers recordings, but they also stopped issuing the Weavers back catalog.   The "folk" boom had ended.

Once again, I do question the influence they had on "folk" music during this period. Most of these recordings were with Gordon Jenkins & his orchestra and they do not sound like the "folk" music that we now remember the Weavers for. In retrospect, I think the Weavers influence on folk music really came after the folk revival began. The legendary 1955 Carnegie Hall Christmas reunion concert was not released on LP until April 1957. The album would sell very well, but it did not receive the commercial attention of their Decca years, and it would be overshadowed by a single that was released in early 1958 from a group know as the Kingston Trio. THIS was the beginning of an approximately 8 year period when folk music made major commercial inroads. It is very safe to say the Weavers were a HUGE part of that revival.


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Subject: RE: The Weavers and the McCarthy Era
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 20 Mar 04 - 06:51 PM

Surely an interesting topic and most of any errors have been corrected (Seeger 1st Ammendment--thanks Ron) and some insights surely gained. The scrolling is long so I may not recall some of the posters. I would just add a few brief comments and/or insights.
    I would suggest reading Robert Koppelman's book---Sing Out Danger--Sing out Love. It goes into depth re: Lee Hays writings and his thoughts of the group and the era. I had the pleasure of interviewing him for my Tabletalk Program on WFDU. I will be airing another interview by him on the Traditions program (WFDU) on 4/18--with a focus on his music and that of The Weavers.
    There is now a group called Work O The Weavers which offers a presentation of The Weavers music (sounding just like them) and documenting their history. Their web site is:

http://www.workotheweavers.com

If you get a chance to see them I think you will find it quite enlightening in a historical---and musical sense. One of the performers was a neighbor and friend of the late Lee Hays.

    As to a few thoughts---Walter Winchell. Probably the most listened to man in the U S in those years. Sadly he was taken at face value and believed. What he was was an awful gossip columnist (who started out as a song and dance man). HIs biography is fascinating---Television finally did him in and when he died only 1 person ( a relative --according to the bio) attended his funeral. His feuds with legit columnists are legendary.   He also ruined many a career when he held sway as the most listened and believed commentator on the air---"....Mr & Mrs North and South America and all the ships at sea" (remember that??)

    As to the importance of the Weavers' contribution to the resurgant interest in "Folk" music. I have to differ a little bit with Ron---we are hosts on the same station/program (disclaimer for truth in advtsg). The names he mentioned are giants in the field---and, yes, they had been collecting and performing many years prior. But--as Phil Ochs once wrote---Links on the Chain. Recordings, Radio and later TV came along. Prior to that it was limited to a small core of adherants.
      As Lee Hays points out---in the Koppelman book---his thinking was that Pete Seeger believed in the aural/oral tradition and Hays felt that now is carried on electronically.   
      Given the music Ron mentioned re: C/W, Gordon Jenkins w/ The Weavers, etc; it was Pop. No doubt. But---and here is where I think The Weavers influence shines through and kept the music and interest alive---it got the people who listened to the inisipid pop music of the late '40s and '50s to hear this music. Paul Robeson was a giant and one who I admired and listened to. Sadly, I doubt that during the HUAC years there was any interest in him. Prior to that I would think that he had a following limited to a more intellectual audience and to a religious group enjoying his spirituals---and they are great. Luckily I still have the LPs and 78s---I digress.
When they returned after the HUAC days they came up with a purer version---and, I think, people responded and wanted to hear and learn more about this kind of music---the Leadbellys, the tradional pieces, and it also evolved into the later type of folk music---the protest songs of the likes of Ochs and Dylan. After all ---folk music was in its early time the newspaper of the time. In one sense anyway.
I have taken too much space and time here--briefly---check out the book and the group and thie programs I mentioned. And, finally, my opinion---were it not for the Weavers I doubt there would have followed a PPM, Ochs, or Dylan---in the popularity they gained. And let us never forget the contribution of Woody Guthrie---and Seeger in keeping that alive which is now being modernized--so to speak---by Nora Guthrie's projects

Bill Hahn
WFDU
Traditions/Tabletalk
      
    http://www.wfdu.fm


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Subject: RE: The Weavers and the McCarthy Era
From: Deckman
Date: 20 Mar 04 - 07:16 PM

Thank you all for your contributions. This posting will be brief as I have to get to my drawing board shortly ... I do make money as "The Deck Man." But later on, I need to make another contribution that I hope will not be a thread creep. But I know that it WILL be a thread creep, if we have to limit this topic only to the Weavers and the McCarthy era.

In my life, and I suspect in many others, so MUCH a part of this experience also involved the "Negro - Black - integration" movement. For me, it's impossible to separate the two. As someone said, "The issues we felt so strongly were the same issues that the communists used for their own purposes. Therefore, anyone who raised those issues was branded a communist..."

Bob Nelson (I'm in the yellow house, second from the corner, on the West side of the street ... I'll have the coffee on!)


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Subject: RE: The Weavers and the McCarthy Era
From: cobber
Date: 20 Mar 04 - 07:27 PM

I grew up in England, coming to Australia in 1960-61. My first exposure to the Weavers was their 1963? Carnegie Hall reunion record which I still have and which had an enormous influence on me. The guest who started this thread should get a look at the video of "Wasn't That a Time" which has a lot of talk at the beginning about the blacklisting of the Weavers. Anyway, what I came on to say, was that as a boy in England, I was particularly a fan of Paul Robeson, not exactly a folk singer but also blacklisted. His sell-out Albert Hall, London concert was amazing in that he was not allowed to leave America so they put a solitary microphone on the stage in the spotlight and sent the performance from New York by cable and sent the audience reaction back the other way. I know in these days, that doesn't sound much but in those days it was awesome. A real poke in the eye with a burnt stick for the blacklisters. This has been a fantastic thread. Thanks everyone.
Maybe we could start a similar Australian thread. In 1979, my attempt to take out Australian citizenship was held up for six months because, as a folksinger, I had managed to accumulate an ASIO (Australian Intelligence and Security Organisation) file.


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Subject: RE: The Weavers and the McCarthy Era
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 20 Mar 04 - 07:27 PM

Bill, if you read my note you would have noticed that we don't disagree at all- I said earlier that they were all links on the chain. As I repeatedly said, the Weavers were a HUGE influence and their importance cannot be diminished.    My point, from the start, is that the Weavers were not the SOLE start of the interest in folk music. The era that we were discussing, the pop sound of the Decca years, was NOT the sound that we remember the Weavers for.   If it were not for the fact that they persevered and reunited at Carnegie Hall in 1955, I doubt that there would have been a folk revival. Likwise, if it were not for the work of the names I mentioned previously, I seriously do not think there would have been a group known as The Weavers.

It is very pleasing to see that the Weaver legacy is being carried on by Work of the Weavers, and Weavermania (who I really think does the best job of capturing their spirit!).   We can't diminish the importance of the Weavers, but we can't gloss over the work that the rest accomplished to open the door for the Weavers to step in.

Ron Olesko
Producer/Host
WFDU-FM's TRADITIONS/TABLETALK (more truth in advertising!!)


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Subject: RE: The Weavers and the McCarthy Era
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 20 Mar 04 - 07:46 PM

Ron---never disagreed. I merely tried to point out that they were links on the chain. I merely felt that they were the most important link since in the Decca years the music was mostly insipid crap that the public ate up. Having them introduce the music they did---thanks to Jenkins created the interest. We agree that what they did later was surely the key and the catalyst to more purity. Though---you read Koppelman's book--Hays loved the Jenkins sessions and the orchestras.

As to the Kingston Trio. My own feeling is that I never understood how one could consider them a link on the chain---so to speak. They had hits---no doubt about that. Did it have relevance to anything? It was just as commercial as the Weavers in the Decca years and surely not as true as the later Weavers.   PPM, in their way, came closer to that.

As to Weavermania and Work O The Weavers (that, by the way, is the name) I hate to make comparisons. One --Weavermania--is purely entertainment. I have MCd for them and they are truly talented people and have a great sound. That said, they try in the banter to be the Weavers---that part does not work.   Work O The Weavers makes no pretense to be them---the follow the arrangements and give a documentary presentation to involve the audience in the era. The two groups are "apples and oranges" and should not be compared. One is a "Tribute Band" and the other is a Docudrama--so to speak--with the sound of The Weavers recreated.

OK shameless plug time---if you are in the NY NJ area on 5/1 they will be appearing at the Paramus Picture Show---you can Google the site.

Bill Hahn
No more truth in advtsg. Just tried to be honest about my affiliation.   (RON:TABLETALK??)


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Subject: RE: The Weavers and the McCarthy Era
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 20 Mar 04 - 08:04 PM

Oops!!! Sunday Session!!!!

I guess we do differ on Weavermania vs. Work O The Weavers. You are right it is hard to compare them. I had the pleasure of being the MC for Weavermania at the Hurdy Gurdy in Paramus. I was struck by the feeling that Weavermania gave to the show. I disagree with Bill that they are "pure entertainment". They did a bit of history (Bill have seen Weavermania on a different night. They do not try to be the Weavers, they talk about the group), not the docudrama that Work O' accomplishes, but for my money I enjoyed the presentation of their effort because they did not get bogged down with dramatics. Plus, the musical talents of Michael Smith, Mark Dvorak, Barbara Barow and Tom Dundee gives their show a cohesive sound. I don't think that it is fair to simply call them a "tribute band".

Okay, Bill and I have done our Siskel and Ebert imitation. Perhaps some other Mudcatters have seen either of the shows and would like to weigh in.   The important thing is that there are two groups introducing the music of the Weavers to new audiences, and rekindling memories for older fans.   Go see them both!!!

Ron


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Subject: RE: The Weavers and the McCarthy Era
From: Art Thieme
Date: 21 Mar 04 - 12:32 AM

I love Weavermania and I've said that in several posts and threads. Coming from Chicago as I do, all of these folks have been a big part of my music listening experience. Weavermania did a show a while back at the Chicago Historical Society and Pete was there and joined 'em for several songs. Fo me, it was a real nostagia trip. So much of my life is tied into those arrangements and harmonies that there is no way I can't like what they are doing.

It seems, from what Ron Olesko has said, that I was in the 3rd year of high school the year Ron was born. I was already going to the Gate Of Horn to hear Josh White, Odetta, Paul Clayton, Theo Bikel, Peter Yarrow, Lord Buckley and Sandy Paton. The house band for their Sunday hoots was a trio (the Frets) with Roger McGuinn, Johnny Carbo and Louis MacDonald.---------Damn, Ron, you make me feel old as hell! --- (It's interesting and fun to watch these kids doing their homework.) ;-)

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: The Weavers and the McCarthy Era
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Mar 04 - 01:12 AM

Up above, Larry K says that Joe McCarthy was right, that those he accused were indeed Communist. I suppose Larry is right - but that's not the point. The U.S. Communists of the 1920's and 1930's were the first to stand up for workers' rights, and the first to oppose fascism. They were loyal Americans using rights given them by the U.S. Constitution. They had no intent to overthrow or undermine the U.S. They were idealists who believed in justice and freedom - and they didn't know about Stalinism. Stalinist totalitarianism is not an inherent part of Communism, and few U.S. Communists were the totalitarians McCarthy thought they were.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: The Weavers and the McCarthy Era
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 21 Mar 04 - 01:21 AM

Art, that is the first time I've been called a "kid" since high school. That feels real good! Thanks!!!!    :)


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Subject: RE: The Weavers and the McCarthy Era
From: Charley Noble
Date: 21 Mar 04 - 10:14 AM

Joe-

While I agree with much of your statement above, the generalization of "They were idealists who believed in justice and freedom" is probably a stretch. There were many U.S. Communists who were simply pedantic cranks, and others who while well-intentioned were willing to shift political priorities radically when the party line as directed from Moscow changed. When Hitler's Germany formed a non-agression pack with Stalin's USSR in the late 1930's, U.S. Communists shifted from opposing fascism to opposing U.S. involvement in a capitalist European war. Then when Germany invaded the USSR, there was the new united front against fascism. The Almanac Singers (some of whose members later formed the Weavers) repetoire shifted accordingly. Of course, if I were a progressive back then I probably would have followed suit as well.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: The Weavers and the McCarthy Era
From: Art Thieme
Date: 21 Mar 04 - 12:18 PM

And many of us who grew up and then came into our 20s in the early 1960s, a bit later than Pete and the Weavers, saw the logic of the many various and good causes, saw the truth of at least some of the Communists ideals, morality, and ethics as exhibited by those singers who became our role models, and we knew that many of the reforms needed badly in our society, reforms that they were pointing out to us, were good and true points of view to hold onto and to cherish as we formed our world views. Few of us really wanted to overthrow anyone's elected government----although we did wish to do away with the sterile consumerism ---- the blatant, and excessive corporate Capitalism as developed by our parents generation. Coming out from under the crushing weight of The Depression, our parents had developed this to a high level. That is what was putting us through school in relative luxury --- while exploiting labor and minorities to do it. THIS was worth rebeling against. --- But it was NOTHING compared to the money-grubbing get-all-you-can-and-run-with-it attitudes exhibited today in so many aspects of American life.

In these modern enlightened times, now, our sincerely held feelings and attitudes are relegated to the demeaning category of Politically Correct by those who wish to deny validity to ANY of the advancements our generations have possibly made. What a bunch of crap.

Pete Seeger and The Weavers and their various degrees of Communist friends have shown me graphically, even as totalitarian Communism has been self-destructing, that the way of a Rainbow Quest -- a Grail Quest leading towards heaven on earth must be one of inclusion and not one of exclusion. For that I will always be grateful. ------- De pie be here on Earth--- not in the stratosphere.

(--- And this while we are being told that we need to bomb others into submission rather than share the wealth and foster good will to all. For the first time in American history we are being told we should utilize a National Ammendment to our Constituion to EXCLUDE a large segment of Americans from being able to wed. --- As Bobby D. said, "Now is the time for your tears."   

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: The Weavers and the McCarthy Era
From: Art Thieme
Date: 21 Mar 04 - 12:25 PM

Think about that, good people. For the first time ever, a whole ammendment to the Constitution--for what? TO EXCLUDE A PORTION OF US from something---from anything.

That would be a travesty.

Art


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Subject: RE: The Weavers and the McCarthy Era
From: Franz S.
Date: 21 Mar 04 - 09:22 PM

I have felt foolish and sentimental for singing (in the privacy of my home) "And we all sang Bread and Roses" with such feeling and so many tears. But wasn't that a time!

Art: The Weavers' recording of On Top of Old Smokey had Across the Wide Missouri on the flip side (still does; I'm looking at the copy I inherited and listened to as a child). The credits list Terry Gilkyson with chorus and orchestra directed by Vic Schoen. I don't know these people, but I'm sure others do. Wimoweh was backed by Old Paint, and Gordon Jenkins did do that one.   I can't fing my 78 of Tzena Tzenaat the moment, but as I recall, it wasn't by the Weavers. I always insisted that my parents play it while I washed dishes back in 1950.

Bob & Don: You have brought back a lot of memories. That tour of Pete Seeger, Sonny Terry, and his cousin; I saw them at Reed College in Portland, with an after party at an old Victorian called The Castle. In 1955-57 I went to News Year's Eve parties at the Hull's house on Boylston in Seattle, where we sang the political songs and "Michael, Row the Boat Ashore". Red Diaper Babies all.

I got my FBI file in the '70's. Mostly it wasn't about me, but about my parents. However, to show the tenor of the times: In 1957 (McCarthy was already disgraced and out of the Senate by then) I had a discussion with my HS physics teacher about atmospheric nuclear bomb tests. I was informed by my counselor shortly there after that said teacherhad asked other teachers about my "communist thinking". So I, being an arrogant young snot, borrowed my mother's International Publishers copy ofEngels' "Socialism: Utopian and Scientific" and read it in class for several days. It wasn't long after that that two guys in a Nash Rambler (these details are engraved on my memory) showed up at the house wanting to talk to my stepfather. They refused to talk to me or my mother, and waited in their car until stepfather cmae home. They grabbed him before he could enter the house, put his in their car,drove aroung the corner and questioned hin for an hour and a half about my politics. They identified themselves as FBI, and I was 16 years old.

I don't know about the larger picture, but I know the Weavers and all the other folk (Walt Robertson was a personal favorite) were what cemented my emotional commitment to activism (I marched in SF yesterday).   And I take very seriously the comment of Jack Miller, an old Seattle Wobbly, as quoted by Utah Phillips, to the effect that a hundred years ago guys whoowned nothing but a blanket and worked the mills or the logging camps could make personal and political commitment that lasted their whole lives, so why can't we, who have so much, do the same?


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Subject: RE: The Weavers and the McCarthy Era
From: Franz S.
Date: 21 Mar 04 - 09:25 PM

I apologise for not proofreading that post more carefully.


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