Dear Mike Harding

Subject: Dear Mike Harding
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 31 Mar 04 - 11:00 PM

Mike-Please see my thead "folk music in the media".john

Subject: RE: Dear Mike Harding
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 31 Mar 04 - 11:01 PM

["media coverage of folk music"

Subject: RE: Dear Mike Harding
From: pavane
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 02:00 AM

That thread has been hijacked now. Maybe it can be continued here

I have no great desire to hear Eastern European, Cajun, African, Indian or any other foreign 'roots' music. Surely they could (and do) have their own shows. And probably Eastern Europeans don't want to listen to English folk?

If we must be limited to one hour, surely we can find one hour a week of BRITISH folk. (it is the BRITISH Broadcasting Corporation, ins't it)

And why does it have to include American Contemporary music, from singer-songwriters who just happen to accompany themselves on guitar?
Here is a suggestion: Few traditional songs (and there ARE exceptions like Died for love) are in the First Person (I/me? songs). Weed out any such songs and play what is left.

(Actually, that would also eliminate many of Ewan McColl and Eric Bogle's songs as well, so perhaps it is a bit harsh)

Subject: RE: Dear Mike Harding
From: GUEST,Keith A o Hertford
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 02:08 AM

Been said before, but never enough.
What is it about us?

Subject: RE: Dear Mike Harding
From: pavane
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 02:11 AM

Maybe Crane driver had it right in the other thread - we are a threat to them and to music industry profits.

Subject: RE: Dear Mike Harding
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 03:03 AM

Maybe we could even have half a show on a regular (ie "every time", English usage, as distinct from "unexceptional", American usage) basis, with foreign folk music and contemporary acoustic in the other half, and see what the JICTAR ratings showed...

Subject: RE: Dear Mike Harding
From: breezy
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 03:19 AM

I seem to be switching off these days as there is little that interests me in the programme.
I used to listen most regularly but not any more.
I think its going stale.
Too much Irish women and 'tunes' I suppose its because Mike lives in Ireland and is lorsing touch with the Folk club scene on the mainland.
There is an imbalance in the content.

Subject: RE: Dear Mike Harding
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 03:32 AM

Breezy - I agree with you about the range of music played by young Harding. BUT Less of the "mainland" if you don't mind!
Dáithí

Subject: RE: Dear Mike Harding
From: el ted
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 03:43 AM

Leave poor little Mike alone, he is all we have got!Folk music just doesn't cut it with the general public.The good news is, folk music is a bit like coarse fishing, ie millions of people do it every weekend but you never hear about it.

Subject: RE: Dear Mike Harding
From: breezy
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 03:52 AM

O K ,this side of the river, will that do?

I wonder how the isle of wighters feel then

Ioan

Subject: RE: Dear Mike Harding
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 03:56 AM

I agree with El Ted in that folk music is mainly participatory. Radio doesn't lend itself to that. But fm is also "regional", at least in the UK. Radio can play a role in bridging therefore; that would require diligent trawling of the regional output (both traditional and contemporary singer/songwriter stuff) and bringing the "catch" to the nation.

Subject: RE: Dear Mike Harding
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 04:14 AM

I don't think the fact that Mike lives in Ireland has anything to do with the material selected. I don't live in America but I bet you at least half my record/CD collection is by American artists. The programme is an indication of a) what the general populace consider acceptable as folk music and b) what is available to the general populace in the larger stores. Judging by the line ups of the festivals this year, if the material were selected only from them, it would be a pretty boring and repetitious programme, more so than you think it is now.

I've seen Mike out "collecting" for the programme in Britain - the poor man had to carry the equipment himself - and he wasn't 'cherry picking', he was wandering around, getting a good sample of every sort of music that was available that day, in a small seaside town in Britain.   The fact that it included English folk song, traditional and contemporary, Bulgarian, Irish, Scottish, French and Australian just shows what an eclectic bunch of music makers we are.

LTS

Subject: RE: Dear Mike Harding
From: breezy
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 04:26 AM

Mike needs help then.

Subject: RE: Dear Mike Harding
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 04:38 AM

I've listened to this prog many times and enjoyed it. I do think that there is too much Irish stuff: Irish music played by Irish, by Americans, by Scots, by Brits, even by Welsh performers. I love Irish music but a lttle more balance in favor of English Trad would be good.

Subject: RE: Dear Mike Harding
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 04:38 AM

I wonder if this is the reason why ALL the media ignore Whitby Folk Week, Whitby is not a festival in the accepted sense but a celebration of folk music which is at least 50% parcipitatory, probably more.
eric

Subject: RE: Dear Mike Harding
From: GUEST,Hannah
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 05:21 AM

In an interview I did with Mike Harding a while ago, he said the remit for his show is 'music from these islands (England, Ireland, Scotland & Wales), and English speaking parts of the world' - this explains why his show contains music from America, but doesn't contain any 'world' music as such. It's impossible to please everyone's music tastes in 60mins each week on national radio. Be grateful we have some folk & traditional music air time on national radio! Sure, some weeks it's more biased towards American music, other weeks towards something else. Take last nights show for example; tracks from Brass Monkey, Emily Slade, live session with Lunasa and Bob Copper - these fit into his remit don't they?! If you're not interested in Mike's show then check out programmes on BBC regional radio stations such as Folkwaves on BBC Derby, Northern Folk on BBC Newcastle, Folk Show on BBC Shropshire. If it's more world music you're after, check out Late Junction or World Routes on Radio 3 - they often contain more folk/trad tracks than Radio 2.
You have to consider what folk music as a genre would gain from more media exposure (aside from bringing the music to a larger audience) - would you want folk & traditional music to compete in the elitist pop world?! As much as I'd like to see a dedicated trad music channel, radio stations (such as the BBC) have to consider if it's economically viable to broadcast such a station. What percentage of their existing listeners would listen to it?

Subject: RE: Dear Mike Harding
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 05:32 AM

When did he move to Ireland? Last time I spoke to him (2 years-ish I think) he was sill in Dent.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Dear Mike Harding
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 05:39 AM

The programme he did for St Patricks' day this year stated that it came from his home in Ireland. It is not outside the bounds of credibility that he has more than one home.

LTS

Subject: RE: Dear Mike Harding
From: concertina ceol
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 05:41 AM

He still lives in Dent.

The cottage in Connemara is his weekend/holiday pad.

Good to see someone earning "real" money from folk music.

Subject: RE: Dear Mike Harding
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 05:41 AM

If fol music did get as much air play as we would like, it could end up like country and western, so diluted it's just more pop music.
eric

Subject: RE: Dear Mike Harding
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 05:41 AM

If your radio's stuck on BBC Radio 2, then it must be buggered. Buy a new one and tune it to BBC Radio Derby or Leicester or Lincolnshire and listen to Mick Peat and me old sailing-partner-in-crime Lester Simpson on 'Folkwaves', Monday neet, 7 till 9. Superb stuff (although they too commit the heresy of playing some stuff by Johnny Foreigner - the wops and fuzzy-wuzzies get everywhere Mr. Mainwaring!) JUST JOKING!! :0)

If you're out of range I'll stake me pension that there's a Folk program on your local BBC station or one close by.

And if you moan enough to the BBC, they'll take Mike off altogether. Then there'll be no folk on mainstream radio at all and you'll be happy.

IMHO
Johnny

Subject: RE: Dear Mike Harding
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 05:58 AM

Agree with SJ, Mick Peat on Folkwaves has excellent taste! Surely you meant Georgie Foreigner, John;-)

Subject: RE: Dear Mike Harding
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 06:19 AM

Keep Mr Harding away from Whitby Folk Week He'll kill it
Keep Mr Harding away from Whitby Folk Week He'll kill it
Keep Mr Harding away from Whitby Folk Week He'll kill it
Etc Etc

Subject: RE: Dear Mike Harding
From: harvey andrews
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 06:22 AM

"What's the matter with us" someone asked, as a side point I heard an interview on radio with a landlord who'd applied for a pub extension to celebrate England's St George's Day. The magistrates turned him down as the day was not special enough. However, if he said it was for charity, they'd grant it. He could apply however for an extension for America's Thanksgiving Day or for the Chinese New year and they'd be happy to grant those.
One has to laugh doesn't one!

Subject: RE: Dear Mike Harding
From: treewind
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 06:25 AM

Folk music just doesn't cut it with the general public

Plenty of folk music gets played on the local radio in Ireland and Scotland. Most of the English public just don't know what it is. Did you see that comment in the "National Festival" thread from a young member of staff at the Sutton Bonington college who spent all day listening to the sessions and was bowled over by music he'd never heard anything like before.

Mike Harding, by the way, is reputedly fed up with people complaining to him. It isn't his fault - he's just the front man for a show run by Smooth Operations and John Leonard from that company is probably more resposible for dictating the content. But and the directive for just abpout everything in the BBC is that it has to be "celebrity led". Sad, or what?

Anahata
(who listens to Late Junction on Radio 3 for folk music)

Subject: RE: Dear Mike Harding
From: GUEST,KB
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 06:38 AM

Re "folk music just doesn't cut it with the general public" :

I am constantly amazed, and pleased, that whenever we get non-folkie friends and family to come along to folk events they seem to enjoy it immensely. So much so that I wonder whether its just our own paranoia that makes us think that folk is unpopular in England and that everyone is laughing at us and expecting us to be beardy-cardigan-tankard-men and earnest-soprano-kumbaya-women.

Never mind media attitudes - if the locals at the pub enjoy our folk nights, if our friends come along and get interested in folk, if our families are proud of us for singing/playing - then that is good enough to convince me that the English DO enjoy their own traditional folk music.

We just need to give everyone more opportunity to hear it and sing it and play it.

Kris

Subject: RE: Dear Mike Harding
From: VIN
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 06:43 AM

I'm sure Mike does the best he can given the 'environment' he works in i.e the BBC. Don't know how much actual influence he has on what's played or show format but when one presenter does the same show every week then i suggest he/she is bound to put there own 'stamp' on the output and presentation as John Peel and John Walters used to do on there brilliant radio one show. Perhaps a programme running on another day with alternating presenters from the folk circuit may produce some interesting programmes - how about it Harvey?

Local radio, as has been indicated, is another source e.g Radio Lancashire's 'Lacashire Drift' which has bin goin for yonks and is brill. Then there's Ally O'Brien's 'Sounds of Folk' - still in its infancy but well worth a listen. As for the natinal network TV/Radio stations, its been an argument for years. Asking the mass media to give British traditional (and not-so-traditional) folk music the attention it deserves is like p'ing against the proverbial wall.

Subject: RE: Dear Mike Harding
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 06:45 AM

I've got the radio tuned to Radio 4 most of the day as I potter around the house and I'm always hearing snippets of "folk" music in the natural flow of things, often just as a background to non-obviously music related items.

Good Lord, does this mean that it's somehow natural and we have a "living tradition" that doesn't just need a "specialist" hour or two.

That'll upset the museum piece re-creationalists out there.

Subject: RE: Dear Mike Harding
From: GUEST,Englishman
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 06:46 AM

Harvey A. - that St. George's Day thing happened in Norwich, where they cut down all the chestnut trees in case a conker fell on soneone's head.

Some parts of the country seem to be more prone to this sort of thing than others.

Subject: RE: Dear Mike Harding
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 07:06 AM

I listen to LJ too (and Womans Hour on R4 - I kid you not!) for a lot more traditional music than you are likely to get on R2. Both are available on the web with 'Listen Again'.

Radio 2 has this thing about 'conning' people into carrying on listening from one show to another when they'll hear music they thought they didn't like. It's known as 'follow through'.   What it makes me think is Mike Barraclough must still be on when in fact the misnamed 'Folk on 2' (or whatever it's actually called now) has in fact started.

The BBC have a 'Folk & Acoustic' site which (other than the message board) I rarely look at because it's so irritating. Today I did and was amazed to hear about hitherto unknown performers 'Woodie Guthrie' and 'Davey Graham', that all traditional music was in 'simple square rhythm' and 'simple harmony' and that Aretha Franklin had a big hit with 'First Time Ever I Saw Your Face' shortly after Peggy Seeger had sung it on US television after getting it over the phone from Ewan. That would be 1957, *long* before Roberta Flack did it on the soundtrack of 'Play Misty For me' in 1971, would it? I'm only surprised it didn't mention that Celine Dion does it too...

I'm relieved to report that the videolink to MH himself telling you which albums you 'must have' in your collection was down when I tried it. He's been very sniffy publicly for years at people who keep 'telling him how to do his job'.   But if he doesn't go along with BBC and Smooth Ops 'remits', why does he keep on doing it?

Subject: RE: Dear Mike Harding
From: harvey andrews
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 07:13 AM

Perhaps a programme running on another day with alternating presenters from the folk circuit may produce some interesting programmes - how about it Harvey?

I did actually present "Folk on 2" a few times from pebble Mill in Birmigham when Jim Lloyd couldn't do it.To get a programme on BBC you have to reply to the remits they send out about once a year. You have to have a production company and you tender for the prog with an outline of what you want to offer. They are only interested in broad concepts for a regular prog. There have been short series on radio 2 about folk music and i did one about songwriting/songwriters.
You have to blame Govt for the problems. The BBC is no longer there to provide a service for minorities in the public who pay the same licence fee as others, it's fighting for its life now and audience numbers are its main weapon. The Govt, and how sad to think it's called "Labour", is, have no doubt, out to close down and privatise the BBC so it can remove its political influence. I foresee it making the BBC subscriber only. Then it will be able to make progs for minorities again, but how many of the British people would subscribe by paying a voluntary licence fee? Of course, the Beeb would wither on the vine and Murdoch would control just about everything and then the people would be singing;
"Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got till it's gone"

Subject: RE: Dear Mike Harding
From: pavane
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 07:16 AM

Mike Harding has obviously had a long and successful musical and comedy career, but many of us think that he does not present the program with sufficient gravity, talking about it coming from a cowshed.

This is not the best way to attract new listeners, I think. Previous presenters had a more serious manner.

It also appears that he is not responsible for the content, but is just paid to present it - which is fair enough, and standard for the business, so we shouldn't criticize him for that.

(As for the local station shows, they are just that - local. I can't receive the ones mentioned, as I live South Wales.)

Subject: RE: Dear Mike Harding
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 07:19 AM

"Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got till it's gone"

There was a perfectly good sports facility at White City till the BBC knocked it down and built offices. On the other hand, I believe Pebble Mill is about to be bulldozed. Could this be good or bad for music? Discuss.

Subject: RE: Dear Mike Harding
From: pavane
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 07:21 AM

Harvey, I think you might have an answer there.

A regular slot, but highlighting a different theme, group, subgenre, or history each time.

Maybe one series on the song collectors, with examples of songs they collected, one series on traditional singers, with their songs, one on the development over time of musical styles, and so on.

That would also allow new or unknown singers/performers to be used in the various examples.

Subject: RE: Dear Mike Harding
From: VIN
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 07:30 AM

Did'nt realise it was that complicated Harvey. Oh well.
No what you mean about labour. I wonder sometimes whether the 'establishment' suppresses our folk music tradition on purpose because it contains and reflects so much 'ordinary' people's history (like the songs of struggle and working people's lives, war experiences etc) which might just influence their general views of our non (real) service providing, mass consumer, profit-driven society and how they vote? Or am i naively paranoid there?

Subject: RE: Dear Mike Harding
From: MikeofNorthumbria
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 07:34 AM

Come on Auntie, play fair! It's not as if we're asking for so very much. If there were as much English traditional music played on our national radio as there is Scottish traditional music played on Radio Scotland, I think most of us would be satisfied.

But we shouldn't blame Mike Harding, or Smooth Operations, for the deficiency. They work to a brief given them by the BBC's management, who in turn take advice from audience researchers about what "the public" likes to hear on radio. Within those rather narrow limits, I think Mike H does a pretty decent job. It's not his fault that there aren't other programme carrying more of the rather different stuff some of us would like to hear

The predominant flavour of MH's hour is CCSS (stands for "Celtic, Country, and Singer-Songwriter" – pronounced "Kickass") because the researchers tell the executives that's what the majority of the public think "folk music" is. Nevertheless, he still manages to squeeze a fair bit of Anglicana into most of his shows. (Full marks to him and his team for getting the Bob Copper tribute together in time for this week's programme.)

Wassail!

Subject: RE: Dear Mike Harding
From: Sttaw Legend
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 07:40 AM

Mike Harding is making a comeback performing live on the folk circuit. His tour starts at the Moor and Coast and finishes at the Whitby Festival.

Subject: RE: Dear Mike Harding
From: GUEST,Sarah
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 07:54 AM

I nobbled John Leonard at a gig a few years back and asked him how you got played on the MH programme. He said the playlist was 'name' driven and he expressed some disatisfaction with the fact that MH sometimes plays CDs shoved into his hand at festivals. It's not MH's fault therefore.

Still - Late Junction is great for folk and world if I'm driving home around then!

Cheers
Sarah

Subject: RE: Dear Mike Harding
From: treewind
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 07:58 AM

Labour government?

Not for nothing is "Tony Blair, MP" an anagram of "I'm Tory Plan B"

Anahata

Subject: RE: Dear Mike Harding
From: GUEST,Mike Harding
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 08:04 AM

Get stuffed the lot of you,it,s my show and I think its great

Mike H

Subject: RE: Dear Mike Harding
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 08:04 AM

Hi Strollin' Johnny, we used to have a great folk music programme on BBC Radio Leeds/Humber, Henry Ayrtons Real Music Show,the best presenter of folk music since Jim Lloyd, at least as good as. BBC radio 2 axed it in favour of pop music.
Who is Smooth Operations anyway. Nick Barraclough does a good job with his country music show so what's stopping Mike Harding doing as good a job, it's the same production company.
eric

Subject: RE: Dear Mike Harding
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 08:04 AM

Countess said
There was a perfectly good sports facility at White City till the BBC knocked it down and built offices.

Yes I remember running at the old White City track in my youth.





Mind you the dog in trap 5 beat me.

Subject: RE: Dear Mike Harding
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 08:10 AM

By the way Mike will NEVER reply to your emails, John Leonard replies for him [ very curious ] and John only ever says that Mike is doing a good job with his remit.
eric

Subject: RE: Dear Mike Harding
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 08:10 AM

See my comments in "Media Coverage " thread.

Subject: RE: Dear Mike Harding
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 10:12 AM

Eric, couldn't get Henry Ayrton on my steam radio, so can't comment (although those who could tell me it was v. good). The local BBC Lincs crowd have tried to dump our own Lincs. folk programme too (Mark Addison and Tom Layne) but it's surviving (I'd like to think due to 'public demand').

I don't think it holds water comparing folk shows with country - country's got a far wider appeal - and I don't hear many people moaning that "There's on;ly Americans on Nick Barraclough's show" (Oops, got jOHn's disease there!).

I think it's a difficult one because 'Folk' means different things to different people (let's face it, the Yanks think country artists are folk singers!), so I'm with El Greko - lets have more airtime and several programs each showcasing a different facet of the wider church we call 'Folk'.

Oh look - there goes another flying pig! :0)
Johnny
:0)

Subject: RE: Dear Mike Harding
From: harvey andrews
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 10:18 AM

"A regular slot, but highlighting a different theme, group, subgenre, or history each time.
Maybe one series on the song collectors, with examples of songs they collected, one series on traditional singers, with their songs, one on the development over time of musical styles, and so on.
That would also allow new or unknown singers/performers to be used in the various examples."

yes pavane, and probably these ideas have been submitted and rejected. The beeb get a lot of submissions for each slot. I've been approached by a couple of companies to present ideas for filling an alloted slot. Only one has ever been accepted by the BBC. The others were not considered broad enough, or contained enough "celebrity" names for national broadcast.

Subject: RE: Dear Mike Harding
From: Mary Humphreys
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 11:16 AM

How does a performer ever get to be a "celebrity" name without being nationally broadcast?
Catch 22 or what?
Mary H

Subject: RE: Dear Mike Harding
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 11:46 AM

These days of celebrity for celebrity's sake, he/she needs do nothing more but be branded a celebrity.

Then all the sheep will praise him/her and by his/her art, or buy his/her autobiography, or watch the quiz (ha!) shows in which he/she puts in an appearance.

I used to like Michael Parkinson a lot. But did you notice that in the last 10 years his shows always include at least one artist/writer who is about to release an album or published a book etc?

Publicity machines don't run on talent. Just money.

Subject: RE: Dear Mike Harding
From: Betsy
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 11:49 AM

Date: 01 Apr 04 - 06:19 AM
Keep Mr Harding away from Whitby Folk Week He'll kill it.
It merely shows what a knob head you are.
Mike was one of the Main Stays of all the early Whitby Festivals .
Together with Bob Spray (and in true pantomime spirit)they were forever dividing audiences into Yorkshire and Lancashire and their respective sympathisers to get the best out of any chorus song.
Also they gathered their respective mobs for loads of other civilised but rauchous activities when the music and song were quiet i.e. cricket on the sands at 10 in the morning.
Besides owt else - I bet you can't sing/play a traditional song/tune from GB / Ireland of which Mike doesn't at least few lines / notes.
He's now an elder statesmen of Folk and like all elder statesmen he's seen most of it ,and more poignant - doesn't really give a toss, just so long as he is doing what he's being asked to do and to the very best of his ability.
To those who have wrote expressing more GB/UK Trad - I agree, but it probably goes down on the BBC Budget as International Music or something - there'll be a reason - but I honestly don't think Mike's the problem here.

Subject: RE: Dear Mike Harding
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 11:55 AM

Agree, Betsy. The tallest tree gets buffeted most by the wind. Mike is an easy target, and not the cause.