Smoking at Folk Clubs

Subject: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 12:37 PM

I would be interested in knowing what other mudcatters think about smoking in Folk Clubs.

I am not against people smoking, but I am concerned about passive smoking for the artists performing at my folk club.

Is it normal to ban smoking in the room.

Please don't let this discussion get flamed, I am not interested in whether somebody does or doesn't like smoking. Its about what is the normal situation.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: harvey andrews
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 12:43 PM

The present situation is that where there is a paying audience there is hardly ever any smoking in a folk club.Most are now smoke free. Where there is a session, I suppose it's all down to the participants.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 12:48 PM

Thats interesting.

At the opening night of Market Rasen Folk Club, there were a couple of artists that smoked and I think one heavy smoking listener.

The function room that I hire on normal nights, is big enough for people to go to the back of the room if they need to smoke.

On the other hand, would it be just better to ask anybody who smokes to smoke outside the room.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 02:53 PM

Ask the guest whether he/she/they would like people to smoke during their set or not. If they don't want the audience to smoke, then they [the audience] will not do so if they really want to hear the artist/s.
Just a suggestion
John

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Scooby Doo
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 03:03 PM

Llantrisant is a non smoking folk club.Its better for performers and the audience.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 03:08 PM

For those who live in a city with no folk clubs and have to play and listen to their traditional music in pubs, there isn't much of a choice -- and my asthma is suffering for it. Honolulu banned smoking in restaurants, but that doesn't include bars, of course.

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 03:38 PM

Anni Fentiman proposed at an AGM several years ago that Herga be a non-smoking club, so it is. By that time very few members smoked anyway. IIFRC, when we had Dick Gaughan as a guest, it was stipulated in his agent's contract that it would be a non-smoking venue, so Dick had to go outside for a smoke.

If the clubroom is separate from the bar, it's reasonable to have a non-smoking policy.

Sharp's is interesting, because the folk club is held in the bar, which at other times is the only part of C# House you can smoke in.

Kitty

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: LesB
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 03:48 PM

At the Bothy we don't ban smoking, but as a rule the handfull of nicotine addicts go out and have a puff in the next room at the interval. It seems to work quite well.

Les

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: The Unicorn Man
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 05:31 PM

It is best to ask people not to smoke and if they want to, to go out side and smoke, people don't seem to mind that. What they do mind however is one week it being nonsmoking and the next it being allowed,so they don't know where they stand. Nonsmokers also don't like it. Smoke affects everyone if they are a performer or not, nowadays it is not too much to ask people to smoke outside, it might even stop them from smoking altogether which will be good for everyone.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 05:49 PM

Smoking should be banned everywhere, except in the privacy of one's own home among consenting adults.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Sooz
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 05:49 PM

Graeme Knights helped us to make Gainsborough Folk Club non-smoking. He made it clear that if he could get out of the room for a smoke anyone could. This has remained the situation long after he moved away from our area. Thanks Graeme!!
Personally I hate to sing or listen in any smoky envoronment.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Willa
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 05:49 PM

Cottingham Live is a non-smoking club. People can go outside the main room for a smoke and are still able to hear the performers.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Lanfranc
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 06:01 PM

As Derek Brimstone and I sat in the separate bar at St Albans Folk Club (a non-smoking venue)recently, enjoying a cigarette (Derek) and a cigar (me), we discussed the current paranoia about smoking, active and passive.

Whilst we could think of many of our folksinging friends who had been plucked from us in an untimely fashion as a consequence of their drinking or indulgence in illegal substances, neither of us could think of anyone we knew who had died of smoking or smoking-related causes.

Last night I witnessed a noisy argument at a session in a public bar, when one participant sat down next to another who was already smoking (other locations were available) and nagged away at the smoker until he lost his temper and told her to f*** off! Which she did, to everyone's delight except hers. What ever happened to tolerance?

Asthma is just as likely to be caused by the emissions of diesel engines, but that doesn't make anyone concerned as to whether they ought to drive their oil-burning car or take a bus (often the worst emitters) to a club.

When smoking has been outlawed, alcohol will be next, and you won't even be able to sup a pint (unless it's Coca-Cola or bottled water) from your pewter tankard at a Folk Festival. Nanny rules!!

Another few years of our current regime, and the only thing it will be legal to smoke will be cannabis (not that I mind the odd spliff).

O tempora, O mores!

Alan

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 06:05 PM

Pure denial.

Alcohol, never. Unless I am forced to breathe your breath.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 06:14 PM

Thank you one and all for the honest opinions.

I agree that you have to have to have a rule, one way or another.You may lose some people, but at least everybody knows where they stand.

In future and based on the previous post, I will ask people who want to smoke to go out the room.

It is a bit difficult because everybody behind the bar smokes. But that is another issue.

What I don't want to do is ban smokers just becuase somebody hates being in the presence of smokers. It works both ways.

I got cancer through smoking, so I know only too well what it means. What I don't want to do is force my will on people, without having a general consensus on it.

If you are a smoker, it is very difficult to go without the weed, I know I used to smoke 50 a day.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Anne Croucher
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 06:18 PM

My voice just doesn't work in a smoky atmosphere.

I used to go early to one folk club and sing one song then stay until the smoke got too thick - then head for the door and fresh air.

This was before smoking was considered anything but a habit.

I made it clear that it was only the smoke which drove me out, but no one seemed to understand my problem.

One evening when there had been some sort of meeting in the room and the room was thick with really pungent smoke I went in and was about to walk out again when the organiser grabbed me and pulled me to the front to fill in as there was no one to sing. I asked for the windows to be opened as I opened my guitar case, but no one moved.

I got through three lines and my voice was gone - then I started to cough, so I just grabbed the case and staggered outside where I choked for five minutes.

I don't think that going into a smoky room once in a while would kill me - it is just that I can't sing when I am in there. I can't sing in the Middle Bar at Sidmouth once the smoke accumulates, I either squeek or go mute or start to cough. Out in the fresh air I can sing all week. I went to the tent in the garden at The Volunteer last year and will probably be found there again.

Anne

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: LesB
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 06:19 PM

Lanfranc may or may not be right about his views on the dangers of smoking, but the fact remains that it is very unpleasant for other people (non smokers) to be assailed by someone else's addiction.
Les

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: breezy
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 07:01 PM

What a load of crap earier on.

There are many cases of smoking causing cancer,plus other conditions the fact that you may not know of anyone yourself is irrelevant lanfranc, although Roy Castle is one example.

I hate coming home stinking of smoke late at night, is is repugnant.


Those who insist on smoking are totally selfish and show total disregard for the welfare of others.

You can tell singers who smoke from the sound of their voice, they lack edge and have a huskiness which to some ears is sexy, to me it means they smoke.

What annoys me is intelligent people trying to justify smoking as being a healthy activity!!
Smokers have zero tolerance at my clubs and anywhere there are children.
At what age do smokers give their offspring their first fag?
Do they encourage their kids to fag it?
What example do they set?

I really admire those who try and give it up.

Do smokers drink dirty water?

Are we enlightened or not.

Its great to get home and still smell clean after a night out singing, apart from the sweat factor!

The smell of stale smoke on anyone or anything is a turn off.

Smoking is not cool, not smoking is cool.

St Albans 'Windward' and 'Spotlight ' Clubs are pleased to be non-smoking clubs, thank you for respecting this fact should you visit.

I will not attend any clubs that have smoke, so the middle bar is out, and I was surprised to read that sometimes the smoke gets to be so thick.
Maybe its not just the smoke that is thick.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 07:16 PM

Once again: smoking is different from drinking, and all our other habits, because we impose it on other people. Nobody goes round pubs grabbing people by the head and pouring drink down their throats; snufftakers don't take people by the nose and force snuff up their nostrils. People who smoke in the company of unwilling nonsmokers are in effect doing that.

Minimal good manners mean that, if you want to light up in a room, any room, or a vehicle, you always ask the other people if they mind - and you don't take that permission for granted, or feel that you have been denied your rights if they say no. You simply haven't got a right to impose your smoking on other people. It's as simple as that.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 07:17 PM

I don't smoke. I used to. Gave up several times.

Smoking was probably the root cause of Jacqui's death. My long term (25 year) partner for those who don't know from other threads.

I notice that in very smoky atmospheres my voice lasts less long.

I still object to discrimination against smokers. If I actually have a problem singing as performer because of nearby smokers I will ask them if they will please move. If I earned my living as a singer I might well require a larger safety margin. But except for asthma sufferers who cannot tolerate smoke, I really think that in a pluralist society asking smokers to smoke at the back, or to open windows is exclusionary enough. Distaste does not justify discrimination.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 07:32 PM

Smoking is unpleasant for the innocent and is best avoided, but we might usefully do without some of this self-righteous piety. How many of the non-smokers who complain so vociferously have given up the filthy (and far more destructive) habit of running a car, I wonder?

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Paul S
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 10:29 PM

The city of Ottawa has banned smoking in all restaurants, bars and clubs. The reason has little to do with the general public health; customers can come and go as they please. It's for the employees.

I work in an office, and it's been illegal to smoke in a workplace for years and years. Bars and restaurants are workplaces too. If I have the right to sit in my cubicle without someone smoking beside me, then bartenders, wait staff and performers should have the same right on their jobs.

Paul

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: kendall
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 10:53 PM

I won't go to places where they allow smoking. I've tried and I just can't tolerate it. Smoking cost me my voice, I'm not about to let it cost me my life.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 01:52 AM

Lots of red herrings coming in guys. The question in the first post was about how to deal with smoking in folk clubs, but the pillocks who want smoking are, as usual, attempting to justify their filthy antisocial habit by introducing irrelevant arguments about alcohol and the internal combustion engine.

If I drink, the only person affected is me, I can't get my car through the pub door and up the stairs to the Club room so the engine's emissions don't affect the attendees. So both arguments are fallacious and the last resorts of scoundrels.

And asking people to smoke at the back of the room doesn't work either, the smoke still hangs around and stinks like shite - our club on the first floor of a pub is non-smoking but the smoke-drift from the downstairs bar still means that I'm coughing like a broken-down old mare the next morning.

Johnny :0)

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Kaleea
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 03:00 AM

In this day & time we all know that if smoking causes cancer, it certainly will cause all kinds of respiratory distress to persons attempting to breathe the same air as the smokers. Many, many people I know (including myself) MUST stay away from smoke for their health, and we consequently often have less access to acoustic Music. Bummer, man! I would greatly appreciate more smoke-LESS environments.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 05:46 AM

Like Kendall and Kaleea, I am automatically "banned " from pubs, restaurants folk clubs, or any public function where smoking is the "norm". I cannot sit comfortably and eat in a restaurant---or a private home--where even one person is smoking. This is something very hard to understand by habitual smokers, particularly those who think [seldom with justification---] that their smoking has done them no physical harm. But to call aversion to second-hand smoke "paranoia" is a form of insult, used to ridicule the statements of those affected by it. Please be aware--the effects of downstream or second hand smoke can range from simple irritation to real distress.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 05:47 AM

No smoking is the way to go. Even if it costs me a few listeners and maybe singers.

Hopefully the no smoking law will be introduced in the UK, then there will not be an argument.

I have every personal reason to ban smoking, due to having had cancer of the bladder myself caused by smoking, plus my wife and young daughter are asthmatic.

I want to put the ban on smoking into force, but not because of my own requirements, but on general concensus of opinion.

I think that has become obvious from the post so far.

Incidentally, I believe that there is a no alcohol pub or bar just opened in Gainsborough.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,eileen
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 06:08 AM

Just a sideline really...but an important one....strollin' johnny...if you drink you shouldn't even have your car in the carpark.
Perfect example of how the consumption of alcohol can have second hand effects. I have to admit..here in Dublin this past week, I've socialized with many people I'd have not spoken to in the past..some good ..some....really unpleasant from the effect of drink.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Sooz
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 06:23 AM

Good point, Eileen but he leaves the car at home if he's drinking. I can assure you of that as I'm usually the designated driver!! (Although not always, especially when we go to Louth Folk Club where they have Old Peculiar....... :o))

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 07:19 AM

Thye are not all peculiar in Louth Sooz :-)

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Sarah
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 07:32 AM

Couple of years ago, playing in a different line-up, I completely lost my voice for around 5 weeks which my doctor put down to working in smoky clubs. I don't sing - I just play the fiddle.

Last night on getting home from another gig, I realised that it's a long time now since I got back smelling like an ashtray and having to wash my hair before sleeping.

I am an asthmatic but don't object if other people light up - it's their call, but it's great when they don't!

Cheers
Sarah

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: wigan
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 07:50 AM

we meet in a room with a low ceiling so we ask (not tell) people tosmoke outside the room. It works. I smoke.but accept that others do not like it. However, many of those who object to the habit are little more than control freaks. Please note that my wife died of a form of throat cancer.She DID'NT smoke! we didn't sit in smokey pubs/bars etc If you want to lecture me about it then make sure you never run a car or similar which cause far more deadly emissions

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: kendall
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 08:49 AM

wigan, your tired old argument is nothing short of silly. There are many causes of throat cancer; smoking is only one of them.
I have been assured by three different doctors that my throat cancer was caused by 47 years of smoking. Period. I'm willing to allow that they know more about it than I do. Are you?

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 09:17 AM

It amazes me how smokers dare to claim that they are the victims! I'm a teacher, and 15 years ago the school staffroom was filled with smoke; there was at that time also the odd pregnate teacher grabbing a few minute rest - but the smokers kept on smoking. It's almost frightening how people who despatately want something will find a way to justify their actions. I bet Genghis Knan was convinced he was morally in the right to kill tens of thousands of people.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 09:27 AM

What's the problem? If you indoors, you don't smoke unless everyone else in the room is in agreement. Couldn't be simpler, for anyone with elementary good manners.

If you need the nicotone, take it some other way, such as snuff. If you like blowing smoke around, which is quite fun, do it outdoors.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 09:39 AM

Remember Alex Campbell
John

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 10:38 AM

And Derrol Adams, and Jacques Brel and...I could go on. I'm asthmatic so it's a request in my contract that the room be no smoking. I've had to put up with some vilification in the past but the battle has been good as won I'm glad to say. I remember once a thread on a UK music group when I appeared up in the North East, still a bit of a bastion for smoking. The club was a smoker but I had permission to put up a sign I had that said;
"For medical reasons the artist politely requests no smoking"
This is what a member of the audience posted;

What did get up my nose however,
was that we had a visit from Harvey Andrews,
before he started to play he placed posters everywhere round the room
'NO SMOKING' & 'Thank you for not smoking'etc;
My wife does smoke, and she took great offence from this action
so did others, needless to say, this did not stop her from smoking"

That was 1997, so progress has been made I think!

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 10:57 AM

Just two weeks ago, Mudcat said farewell to one of its most beloved members; someone who died decades too young from cancer after years of smoking and playing in smoky bars and folk clubs. After seeing such effects of smoking and second-hand smoke on such a valued member of this community, it is mindboggling that anyone would defend smoking in public places.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 11:42 AM

GUEST: Eileen - I can't thank you enough for proving my point with another, totally inappropriate and inaccurate, red herring. Furthermore you proved one of my other points - that addicts will use any argument, however distorted, in an attempt to justify the disgusting things they do.

I don't drink when I drive for precisely the reason you state - the irresponsibility of risking harming others. Shame the dirty buggers who insist on inflicting their foul poison on me don't have the same regard for my well-being.

Thanks Lass.
Johnny

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 12:04 PM

Nice to see my old friends, Drinking and Driving, mentioned again in a smoking thread. I thought they had died of embarassment years ago...;-)

Drinking, while having some tragic secondary effects at times, does not always affect everyone in close proximity as smoking does.

The infernal combustion engine, while being an evil, is a necessary evil. At present it has no viable alternative. There are viable alternatives to smoking.

Stop wheeling out the old chestnuts please.

Now, on a more positive note, why has no-one considered the technological answer? Surely with todays modern filtration systems we must be able to have extractors and purifiers that would keep everyone happy? Or is the licensed trade not to happy abput spending the money to put such systems in? Or am I perhaps a little too cynical?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 12:48 PM

And, Dear Eileen, someone else being 'unpleasant from the effects of drink' will not have a carcinogenic effect on you.

Johnny

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 12:56 PM

Now I don't want to sound "holier than thou" on this occasion, but if you look back at my post earlier in this thread I do think it is a bit less sanctimonious than some of the later ones. I still object to discrimination against smokers. I don't object to necessary and reasonable safeguards, particularly for those medically hypersensitive. But a little bit of restraint and tolerance, please. Those used to be characteristics of which we English were proud.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 01:05 PM

I still object to cancer being inflicted on me by selfish addicts. I far prefer sanctimony, no-one died of sanctimoniousness.
Johnny

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 01:10 PM

Restraint and tolerance don't help when you're coughing up bits of lung. I watched my mum die of emphysema-induced heart failure caused by smoking - it was slow and horrible. No-one should die like that.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 01:52 PM

Ok guys, this is getting flamed and going away from the original post.
So if you don't all behave yourselves I will come down on you in a cloud of smoke and devour you all. :-)

The original question was

Is it normal to ban smoking in a Folk Club.

I am trying to promote a folk club where all ages are welcomed. The younger the better, becuase it is the youngsters who are going to continue the folk legacy in what ever shape or form it may represent.

That means that young children will be there. They should not be subject to smokers.

People who have ailments such as asthma, should also not be subject to smokers.

People who smoke should not be subject to abuse from non smokers.

And vice versa

People who dont smoke should not take abuse from smokers.

At the end of the day as a person running a folk club, I have a duty to safeguard all of the people who don't smoke.

Therefore I have to ask smokers if they would mind smoking outside the room. I am sure most smokers understand and are only too willing to help in this way. I will have small breaks between each artist, where nicotinees can nip out have a quick drag and hopefully not miss anything.

I don't think you can order anybody not to smoke, and I am sure that to do so only leads to confrontation.

So anybody that comes to the next one on April the 23rd who is a smoker, I hope you will support me in not smoking in the room.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 02:30 PM

I can't wait for a pack of cigarettes to hit $10 a pack.

Even now at $5 a pack in many places, just think what else can be done with that money.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Peter from Essex
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 02:54 PM


Is it normal to ban smoking in a Folk Club.


If you define "Folk Club" as an organisation which puts on a staged performance in a separate room then I would no more expect to be allowed to smoke there than in the Royal Festival Hall.

Sessions in bars are a different matter.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 02:56 PM

Noone is seeking to discriminate against smokers. It's just that there's a place and a time for everything.

If you want to juggle, fine, but don't do it in the cinema. If you want to play the bodhran, fine, but not in a reading room. If you are having a barbecue, that's ok, but not in the living room. These are not restrictions on your liberty.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 03:32 PM

Take your point there Peter.
My folk club is in a function room.

Subject: RE: Smoking at Folk Clubs
From: The Unicorn Man
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 03:37 PM

When we went non smoking at our club, it was and is, in a bar, I thought here we go all the smokers will get up set and smoke anyway or storm off and not come back, but as it turned out they all agreed and went into the other bar to smoke, and one even said he prefered a smoke less room as well. Goodie I thought.