Why don't you go to folk clubs?

Subject: Why don't you go to folk clubs?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 03:45 AM

[obviuously only applies to them that don't go!]

I've been reading a few threads over the last few days, and noticed quite a few people saying they don't go to folk clubs, or rarely go anymore, so why not?

this is not a troblemaking thread, so dont just say "because they are crap" or whatever.

A few people, [myself, The Villain, etc] have recently started folk clubs, and I'm sure others would like to start one in there area.

obviously you can't please everyone ie, some will say they don't go as they are too smoky, others won't go because they can't smoke there.

if you went and stopped, what made you stop going?

If you never been to a folk club, why not?

this thread might help folk club organisers, or them thinking of opening one in thier town, so please give your opinions.

Subject: RE: Why don't you go to folk clubs?
From: Sooz
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 03:54 AM

I'd like to know the answer to this one as well j0hn. Do you think tey are frightened to enjoy themselves?

Is your club on tonight or is it monthly?

Subject: RE: Why don't you go to folk clubs?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 04:01 AM

I'ts monthly, it was last week, you missed a good night, we had Greg Stephens, Kate Barfield, Rory McLeod, Jim Eldon, Henry Aryton etc etc etc, we are there again on the 6th of May.

Subject: RE: Why don't you go to folk clubs?
From: Sooz
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 04:10 AM

Sorry, can only stay up that late in school holidays!

Some people don't go to folk clubs because they think they are too good.
Some people don't go to folk clubs because they think they aren't good enough.
Some people don't go to folk clubs because they don't want to listen to anyone else.
You can please some of the people all of the time, all of the people some of the time.........
Good job we are all different, most times we couldn't fit anyone else in at our folk club!

Subject: RE: Why don't you go to folk clubs?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 04:35 AM

The main reason I don't go is because there are too many no talent people wailing and slamming an instrument. I can't take 35 verses in some foreign language like Gaelic. I'm a word person, and if I don't understand the lyrics, my eyes glaze over after two or three verses.
Then there's the smoke and noise. Then there are those assholes who come only to hear themselves, and yammer away while others are performing.
Finally, those insensitive twits who record you without prior permission. I sometimes do something I have written and not yet copyrighted, or, maybe even finished yet, so I don't want it recorded.

Subject: RE: Why don't you go to folk clubs?
From: GUEST,Hugh Jampton
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 04:44 AM

GUEST,
       If you do not go to folk clubs for the reasons stated where do you manage to perform and air your compositions?

Subject: RE: Why don't you go to folk clubs?
From: Morticia
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 05:28 AM

To be honest, I stopped going because I had been going for so long that I knew every song the other performers were going to do, every note, every nuance. All done beautifully, but I could do their songs in my sleep.

There is an arguement, and I am not opposed to it, that says learn a handful of songs and polish them til they shine.....but if you go to a folk club every Thursday for two years, those songs get pretty damn tiresome.

Subject: RE: Why don't you go to folk clubs?
From: GUEST,disillusioned
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 05:31 AM

One of the reasons I don't go any more (and I used to be at a folk club every night of the week at one time) is that a lot have become so "precious"! I did go to a Christmas song session (fell into it by mistake!) in the back room of an empty pub. Why weren't they singing in the bar? Because, said the 70something person in charge, this was too precious to waste on the general public and should be kept in the back room. I think they may have missed the point somewhat!

Do we need another revival?

Subject: RE: Why don't you go to folk clubs?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 05:43 AM

Our club is run in an upstairs room as the landlord preferrs it We have asked to go down in the bar but he won't have it.
When 'guest says he doesn't want to hear People who only go to 'hear themselves' and doesent want to hear 'No talent people wailing and slamming an instrument' then also mentions singing unfinished songs, is this a case of double standards?

Subject: RE: Why don't you go to folk clubs?
From: Skipjack K8
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 06:32 AM

Nice one, jOhn, and a question I haven't really asked myself. Having analysed my own position for a few minutes, it can be summarised as being 'because I never came to folk music through folk clubs', and have found folk fulfillment (teeth back in!) in the pub session.

Sure, I did go to odd clubs over the years, Faversham to see Richard Digance, Cheddar to see a very young Kathryn Tickell, and the Oysterband, but to be honest, as a non-musician at the time, the floorspots by the locals didn't appeal to me.

Then I discovered the session on top of Mendip, and I was blown away with the idea. I literally, and painfully for others, learnt to play the accordion just to be part of that wonderful environment, and I still find that the session totally fulfills my listening and performing needs.

So I guess the session, and the mixed tune and song sessions are IMO the best, has replaced the folk club for folk like me.

Subject: RE: Why don't you go to folk clubs?
From: Sir Roger de Beverley
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 06:46 AM

My reason is mainly time.

I started in folk clubs back in '64 and knew nothing else really until going to Pete's session in Nellies back in '98. Since then I've really limited myself to two sessions a week on Tuesday and Sunday as I can't really justify being out more often - especially as "er indoors" isn't into folk stuff (she thinks folkies are weird, and who am I to disagree).

There some good clubs that I feel guilty about not supporting more but I can't be everywhere.

R

Subject: RE: Why don't you go to folk clubs?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 07:21 AM

I quit going to my local club because there are two creeps who keep imposing their smoke on everyone else and the organizers won't have them butt out. There are a lot more than two of us who have quit because of them.

Subject: RE: Why don't you go to folk clubs?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 07:25 AM

Name and shame, GUEST - the club, not the creeps!

Subject: RE: Why don't you go to folk clubs?
From: A Wandering Minstrel
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 07:49 AM

Mainly cos by the time I've had me tea and ferried the SO to her evening class and the sprog to her boyfriends its too late to set out for the club.

Also the habit in some clubs of retarding a chorus so hard the singer looses the will to live.

Subject: RE: Why don't you go to folk clubs?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 07:55 AM

LOL, Minstrel, know what you mean :-)

Subject: RE: Why don't you go to folk clubs?
From: GUEST,Penguin Egg
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 07:55 AM

I don't go to folk clubs because everyone seems to know everyone else and I feel I'm crashing a private party. The few times I've been I have never enjoyed myself even though the artist is excellent. I always come away resentful. Also, why are they never advertised outside? It is like they don't want you to go in. When you do go in, you have to join and become a member -Why?

Why can't folk clubs be more like rock venues-you pay your money and you watch the show and you are not made to feel that they are doing you a really big favour by allowing you in. They should also get proper support acts rather than these boring people who turn up and play Costello's Alison on an acoustic guitar (badly)and think we are too stupid not to know that it is not a folk song.

I love folk music but despise folk clubs. The people who run these things should start to look outwards rather then inwards, start thinking of their customers as punters rather than freinds, then, just maybe, you might get a few more people coming in. Get commercial. Get real. There is an audiance out there for folk music.

Subject: RE: Why don't you go to folk clubs?
From: woodsie
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 08:11 AM

Watching some geezer sing the same song from a sheet of paper for the last 6 years - thought he would have remembered the two verses and chorus by now!

Then the "My guitar is the most expensive in the club and I've come to do my bit, play along with whoever I think is worthy of my talent, talk through or criticise the other acts and then piss off early" bloke.
How about the "that's not real folk music, lager is all chemicals" herbert.

Then the young 20 or 30 something female of mediocre talent worshiped and lusted after by frustrated 40 & 50 year old males.

Then the old feller singing Frank Sinatra.

The teenager with attitude

And me...

That's why I shouldn't go... but I do.

Cos I love 'em all!

Subject: RE: Why don't you go to folk clubs?
From: Willie-O
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 08:14 AM

Um, cause there aren't any?
Here in smalltown Ontario, we have a type of performance known as a "concert". They are held in locations with no smoke, soft seats, and sometimes a bar open at intermission. The performer whose name is on the bill plays for about 85% of the show, and someone less famous does three to five songs at the beginning of the evening, they are often quite good, or at least they are finished soon.
You pays your money and you get one of these soft seats and know roughly what the evening will be like. (Better yet, if you are cheap and locally-connected like moi, you can often get in free in exchange for modest services rendered)

Afterwards if you are the sociable type you can go find a drink with your friends if you see any, and take in all the smoke and noise you care to.

Subject: RE: Why don't you go to folk clubs?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 08:28 AM

I don't go very often because a lot of bands play with more amps than the Beatles took to Shea Stadium. I find it obnoxious and unnecessary.

Subject: RE: Why don't you go to folk clubs?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 08:36 AM

I'm not getting involved with this. I've made my position perfectly clear in other threads (and I reckon I've made enough enemies).
Johnny :0)

Subject: RE: Why don't you go to folk clubs?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 08:52 AM

Ditto
eric

Subject: RE: Why don't you go to folk clubs?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 08:53 AM

Gahn then, Eric & Johnny - go to the other thread and post your positive views/recommendations.

Subject: RE: Why don't you go to folk clubs?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 09:03 AM

I used to, but when I got tired of nasty, backstabbing comments from people who couldn't play the instruments I play, let alone ANY instrument at all, I stopped. I have found a place once a month where the organisers are very welcoming and tolerant - which propbably explains why every man and his dog go there too - including some of the people previously mentioned!

Robin
:-)

Subject: RE: Why don't you go to folk clubs?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 09:04 AM

Greko - I've done it loadsa times, on loadsa threads! All it gets me is a bloody good kicking from the 'Folk's Dead' and 'Traditional Only' crowds, and trouble from anonymous GUESTS who take umbrage when I use words of Anglo-Saxon origin! I'm black and blue, feel strange, everything's going da-a-a-rk, a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-aa-a-a-a-hhhh...........................THUMP!

Johnny :0)

Subject: RE: Why don't you go to folk clubs?
From: GUEST,Fender
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 09:11 AM

Loved the club scene - don't go to the local one any more because of bad atmosphere (in both senses of the word) and the behaviour of a couple of stalwarts who claim to welcome everyone, but don't welcome anyone save for a few cronies.

Next nearest has heavy smoke and bad language from the organisers.

One good session in the next town where all are welcome - I go there when I'm able: even there 'politics' crept in and a small group went to a pub up the same street for some imagined slight.

Subject: RE: Why don't you go to folk clubs?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 09:12 AM

QUick, he's down, send Avril for the kiss of life...

Subject: RE: Why don't you go to folk clubs?
From: Sooz
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 09:19 AM

I wondered when Avril would make an appearance!
Penguin Egg - those outward looking commercial places you mentioned are called theatres! There is plenty of room for them as well as folk clubs.

Subject: RE: Why don't you go to folk clubs?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 09:58 AM

Does she like tickly beards?

Subject: RE: Why don't you go to folk clubs?
From: kendall
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 10:29 AM

Then, of course, we have the flange head who thinks every song meeds a bodrhan.

Subject: RE: Why don't you go to folk clubs?
From: Rasener
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 10:35 AM

So you have two beards then Strollin' :-)

Subject: RE: Why don't you go to folk clubs?
From: GUEST,Peter from Essex
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 10:53 AM

I have been to so many bad nights that I no longer feel like driving 30 or 40 miles to a strange club to see a new act after a day at work. I catch new names at festivals or by recommendation and see then at clubs which I know have a decent atmosphere.

Penguin Egg's comments do reflect how far too many clubs appear to the paying audience. There are some exceptions and these have nothing to do with the trad/comtemporary arguement, its all about attitude towards the customers.

Subject: RE: Why don't you go to folk clubs?
From: Ross
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 10:56 AM

The one thing that puzzles me about life is how intolerant people are; and how judgemental we all are

I like all forms of music and enjoy beginners to professionals - I tend to think I'm lucky

My Dad goes berserk if he has to endure more than a second of music he doesn't like

My favorite memory is watching a massive orchestra do some frenzied classical piece with the passion of olympic sportsman - He simply turned to me and said 'rubbish'

Perhaps the folk club problem is the same reason the human race has always been in a mess

Subject: RE: Why don't you go to folk clubs?
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 11:16 AM

Peter's point about attitude to the customers is a very important one.

There was a thread some while back along similar lines on uk.music.folk and a lot of discussion covered the question of why people dont to clubs as much as they used to. I've snipped some coments I made in that forum from a lengthier post since I felt nobody was addressing the question "why don't they come back again?" so here are some of those snippings in italics below which may fit in here also

Scruffy or not though reasonable comfort for the audience is
essential.

Much has been written in the thread about getting people into the club
bit, unless I've missed it, not much has been written about how to
make sure they come back again.

At the club where I MC, The Old Rose & Crown Walthamstow, I make it a
point to spend some time walking round the room chatting to virtualy
everyone there, it may be just a few words but it's important to make
people feel that they are welcome.

Obviously I don't do this during the actual performances ;-)

I tend to particularly concentrate on new members, asking them where
they found out about the club, if they attend any other clubs or, if
they've been off the scene for some years where they used to go. Is it
the particular guest that night that attracted them or general
interest. Easy simple questions which make people feel welcome and
provide useful info for the club as well. Provide new people who may
not know much about folk clubs and music a general background to the
types of music we feature (which covers a lot....) this may be
particularly important for newcomers who know very little as the type
of music booked on the night in question may not always be to their
taste but soemthing coming up may be. It'll be good of it's kind
anyway :-)

With regulars a general chat about anything. If they've missed a week
or two, polite interest can provide useful info particularly if the
reason they've missed those weeks is to do with who's been booked. You
can find out your audiences preferences quite easily by asking them in
a non threatening way.

Just some of the thoughts I had at that time.

Subject: RE: Why don't you go to folk clubs?
From: GUEST,Sarah
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 11:19 AM

Beatles didn't take enough speakers and still sounded sh** live!

Avril? Have you finished dribbling over him yet?

Cheers
Sarah

Subject: RE: Why don't you go to folk clubs?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 12:12 PM

Sarah - the total wattage (power) available to the beatles in their heyday would have been around 300 (backline and PA together). Today, a band PA of 10,000 watts is commonplace and stadium gigs would have upwards of 100,000 watts. Can't compare '64 with '04. Technology-wise, and also chronologically, they're in different centuries. That's progress (or is it? Maybe there's a new thread there????).

Johnny :0)

Subject: RE: Why don't you go to folk clubs?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 12:21 PM

And Avril's dribbling's good for me! :0) :0)
Johnny (still larfing!) :0)

Subject: RE: Why don't you go to folk clubs?
From: Betsy
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 12:48 PM

I suspect:-
Kids come along / need baby sitter / Dad can't get lift to club cos Mam is baby sitting (or the other way round) / Sets already allocated to cronies / type of beer no good / too many in-jokes / smoking problems (for and against) / kids are older need lift to Gym ,swimming baths etc finishing at 9-30pm / too uncomfortable / too many people in the folk club who are too socially maladjusted to get into any other sort of club / people moaning about your Anglo Saxon - though they will gladly pay good money to go and see Chubby Brown / narrow minded people / half baked political animals / fiddling ( not music) Organisers /people wanting it to be THEIR type of Folk music - and almost everything that wouldn't meet the criteria for it being an evening of acoustic music and song coupled with social intercourse which I reckon it ( loosely ) should be.

Subject: RE: Why don't you go to folk clubs?
From: Shimbo Darktree
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 12:54 PM

Hey people, can we drop the Avril bit! I am still coming to grips with how I was sucked in for so much of the thread ... good laugh, though!

But I digress ...
Folk clubs, like all human endeavour,
Suit some, and, just like the weather,
Will be sunny or wet,
And perfection, I'll bet,
Will be found, like hens' teeth, hardly ever!

We all like different things, and have different expectations. Now, Brisbane (and environs), Australia, has a wealth of folk "meets"; clubs, sessions, whatevers. You do what I do - go to what you like, make friends with who you like, and try to have some concern for the tenderness of your neighbours' toes (I'm not really good at that yet, but it will come with time). Smoking is becoming less of an issue, as the laws here are getting tougher all the time ... so much so, I quit last December.

Reading back over this, I'm having a very obscure night. What I am trying to say is that there are various folk venues of various types for various sorts of people. Go to what you like, and dodge what you don't. If desperate enough, start your own club or session. (Love this advice stuff ... it's so easy to dish out!)

Shimbo

Subject: RE: Why don't you go to folk clubs?
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 01:09 PM

I moved to Wash DC USA in 1977 partly because it had one of the best folk scenes anywhere- including a place near me that hosted folk music one night a week. That lasted 2 years, then the place was sold and we tried for several years to find places that would host something similar, with 'mixed' results. It has since deteriorated to a singer-songwriter hell, and I just don't go. One can find a few places where there are a few attempts at classic material mixed in with the latest pop/S.S stuff, but you never can be sure, and I HATE wasting an evening where I only enjoy 14% of the offerings.

I presume it is simply a matter of supply & demand, and there in not the demand for 'real' folk music anymore, so I make do with the occasional private gathering..(which may STILL be as good as you can find in the US!)

Subject: RE: Why don't you go to folk clubs?
From: Rain Dog
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 01:28 PM

I have only been to two folk clubs; Faversham to see Martin Carthy and Hythe to see Cloudstreet. Not knowing what to expect when I went to Faversham first I was a surprised by the fact that other people got to sing as well. I knew what to expect then when I went to Hythe. I enjoyed both evenings and found both to be friendly enough.

I might well go again when a someone I know is perfoming nearby. My first two visits have done nothing to put me off from going again. The main reason I don't go is just because I am an anti-social old git.

Subject: RE: Why don't you go to folk clubs?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 02:05 PM

I don't go out to many bar or club venues because the volume is always too loud and there is cigarette smoke. Why is it that some twit sits at the next table and puffs away with no concern for everyone else in the room? He/she can step outside for that puff and do the audience and performers a lot of good. One cigarette in the room every 20 minutes or so can ruin the place for me since I'm not around it any other time and my nose, throat, and sinus pain threshhold is low. After my last club experience I walked into my thankfully silent house and stripped at the washer, throwing my smoky clothes in to wash immediately. From there I headed for the shower. My nose and throat burned despite the shower and I felt like I had a cold the next day.

Why in small clubs does music have to be amplified to the point of pain? This is another reason for avoiding them. My hearing isn't what it once was, and I frankly don't want to ruin it further faster. I'm sure it takes practice and training to develop the endurance to sing a set unamplified, but it might also make for a better performance.

There seems to be a social disconnect at play here. The same mindset that lets a couple of people foul the air for a roomful of people is also the one that says it's okay to walk into any meeting, talk, concert, or meal with a cell phone ready to shrill-out Beethoven's Fifth or Turkish March (and the owner of the phone doesn't have a clue who wrote the piece or what the rest of it sounds like!).

Cities that put smoking bans into effect find that people who haven't dined out in years are suddenly appearing in restaurants, resulting in no economic impact to restaurant businesses. The same could well be the case with folk clubs. There are always rude and thoughtless people. They're the ones who need to be banned to the back rooms.

SRS

Subject: RE: Why don't you go to folk clubs?
From: Shimbo Darktree
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 01:52 AM

Rain Dog,

Glad you liked Cloudstreet ... they are one of our top exports!

Shimbo

Subject: RE: Why don't you go to folk clubs?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 02:34 AM

SRS , it used to be called "manners" when I was a child... or rather, a lack of them...

Robin

Subject: RE: Why don't you go to folk clubs?
From: kendall
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 11:45 AM

I don't understand why it is that to my mind, most modern music is an annoying unnecessary racket. It grinds my nerves, and has the same effect as someone intruding on my space uninvited.
I actually envy people who like all kinds of music.

Subject: RE: Why don't you go to folk clubs?
From: GUEST,maryrrf
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 12:13 PM

You're not alone, Kendall. I feel the same way. In particular, most of the music played in malls and public places really grates on me. Silence would be a heck of a lot better.

Subject: RE: Why don't you go to folk clubs?
From: kendall
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 08:07 PM

I raise hell about it everywhere I go. I'm sure they think I'm just an old pain in the ass, but I don't care what they think. Remember those tee shirts that said IF IT'S TOO LOUD, YOUR'E TOO OLD?
Mine says, IF IT'S TOO LOUD......IT'S TOO FUCKING LOUD

Subject: RE: Why don't you go to folk clubs?
From: steve in ottawa
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 01:54 PM

Some music has to be loud to be good.

Queen's We Will Rock You sounds horrible when played softly. Bagpipe music sounds best at a distance of only a few hundred feet (still pretty loud). Inflicting either upon unappreciative ears should be minimized...but not done away with entirely.

As for folk clubs: my worst gripe with the best local club is its sight lines -- about 25% of the seats have poor sight lines to the stage and it's uncomfortable always craning your neck around, or being nearby the uncomfortable people. My second trouble is financial; I don't feel I'm doing my share unless I'm buying enough beverages and snacks and...they add up. I like local folk concerts (200-300 people) better; better performers, everyone has a good sight-line, and even with a snack at intermission and doubled or tripled ticket prices, it still costs less than a club evening.

Subject: RE: Why don't you go to folk clubs?
From: Ed.
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 02:12 PM

Queen's We Will Rock You sounds horrible when played softly

It's even worse played loudly....

Subject: RE: Why don't you go to folk clubs?
From: Dave of Mawkin
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 02:22 PM

I dont usually do this sort of thing,however I think its important people support young folk musicians as much as the old ones, and also local folk clubs, so if anyone isnt doing anything on the 19th of april, and they fancy a good night out with lots of energetic,punchy english,irish,scottish and french folk music then please try to get to Waltham Abbey Folk Club.Would be good to see a nice crowd.By the way, we dont sing, well we do, but you wouldnt want to hear it!

Subject: RE: Why don't you go to folk clubs?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 02:43 PM

Awwww, Ed, you stole my line I was going to post!

Dave Oesterreich