Origins: Weela Weela Walia /Wela Wolla

Subject: Wela Wolla
From: jim
Date: 06 Oct 98 - 04:00 PM

Song is about a witch who kills a baby by stabbing in head with alone knife. She is hung moral of story don't stick knives in babies heads

Subject: RE: Wela Wolla
From: mmario
Date: 06 Oct 98 - 04:12 PM

yes! I am looking for this as well

Subject: RE: Wela Wolla
From: Bob Schwarer
Date: 06 Oct 98 - 04:33 PM

Weela Wallia is a Clancy Brothers(& Tommy Makem) song. There is an old thread on it but I can't find it.

Bob S.

Subject: Lyr Add: WEELA WALLIA (Clancy Brothers)
From: Ralph Butts
Date: 06 Oct 98 - 06:12 PM

Here 'tis. "Baby" is pronounced "Babby" by the Clancys.

.....Tiger

Weela Wallia - Clancy Brothers

There was an old woman who lived in the wood,
Weela weela wallia;
There was an old woman who lived in the wood,
Down by the river Sallia.

She had a baby six months old,
Weela weela wallia;
She had a baby six months old,
Down by the river Sallia.

She had a penknife three foot long,
Weela weela wallia;
She had a penknife three foot long,
Down by the river Sallia.

She stuck the knife in the baby's head,
Weela weela wallia;
The more she stabbed it, the more it bled,
Down by the river Sallia.

Three big knocks came a-knocking at the door,
Weela weela wallia;
Two policeman and a man,
Down by the river Sallia.

"Are you the woman what killed the child?"
Weela weela wallia;
"Are you the woman what killed the child
Down by the river Sallia?"

"I am the woman what killed the child."
Weela weela wallia;
"I am the woman what killed the child
Down by the river Sallia."

The rope got chucked and she got hung,
Weela weela wallia;
The rope got chucked and she got hung,
Down by the river Sallia.

The moral of this story is,
Weela weela wallia;
Don't stick knives in baby's heads
Down by the river Sallia.

Subject: RE: Wela Wolla
From: MMario
Date: 07 Oct 98 - 10:18 AM

Thank You!

Subject: RE: Wela Wolla
From: rosebrook
Date: 07 Oct 98 - 10:23 AM

And although the content is extremely morose, this is one of my band's favorite celtic songs to sing - it's so 'musically' upbeat! We did however refrain from bringing this one out last week-end when we played at a picnic for foster parents and their families...

Rose

Subject: RE: Wela Wolla
From: Jim
Date: 07 Oct 98 - 10:38 AM

Thanks all for the song Wela walla

Subject: RE: Wela Wolla
From: Barry Finn
Date: 07 Oct 98 - 03:50 PM

Try jumping rope to this, that's what I'm told it was used for in the Liberties (sp?) Dublin, 1/2 a century ago. Barry

Subject: RE: Wela Wolla
From: Roberto Sopero
Date: 07 Oct 98 - 05:48 PM

there's another verse, which would go 2nd from the end in the above lyrics:

"That was the end of the woman in the woods,
Weela Weela wallia
And that was the end of her bahy too
Down by the river Sallia"

Subject: RE: Wela Wolla
From: JB3
Date: 10 Oct 98 - 04:21 PM

This is the lightest of the Cruel Mother songs/ballads. I have heard it sung in Ireland where there were intentional juxtapositions of the words: She had a pen-knife six months old, she had a babby three feet long, she stuck the babby in the pen-knife's head, etc., which makes it more comedic.

Subject: RE: Wela Wolla
From: Martin Ryan.
Date: 10 Oct 98 - 06:26 PM

Barry

The "Liberties" were once areas just outside the city walls of Dublin - now, of couirse, regarded as the heart of the city. I went to school there, as it happens.

Regards

Subject: RE: Wela Wolla
From: Barry Finn
Date: 10 Oct 98 - 10:52 PM

Hi Martin, funny timing someone asked about this song last Tue. at a singing session, so Shay launched into it saying as a kid it was sung while jumping rope, then getting to the last chorus he started swinging his arms around to the music showing how it kept the rope in time. Barry

Subject: Lyr Add: OLD MOTHER LEE^^
From:
Date: 12 Oct 98 - 03:16 AM

The Dubliners' version of 'Weila Waile' is slightly different from the Clancys'. After the 'three loud knocks' it goes on:

There were two policemen and a man

They took her away and they put her in the jail

They put the rope around her neck

They pulled the rope and she got hung

Now that was the end of the woman in the wood
And that was the end of her bawbee too

At some point the song jumped across the Irish Sea. The Spinners did a version called 'Old Mother Lee' about which they said:

[1974:] The girls of Kirkdale, Liverpool, whose brothers at Major Street school gave this to [Spinner] Tony Davis, had certainly not heard of Professor Child. However, their skipping is unmistakeably based on the ['Cruel Mother] ballad substituting the grim realities of 'forty police', 'the magistrate' and capital punishment for the ghostly children and the 'fires of hell' of the older form of the story. (Notes 'The Spinners at the London Palladium')

There was an old woman called old Mother Lee
Old Mother Lee, old Mother Lee
There was an old woman called old Mother Lee
Down by the walnut tree

She had a baby in her arms

She had a penknife long and sharp

She stabbed te baby through the heart

The next-door neighbours saw the blood

They rang up for the forty police

The forty police came running (skipping) out

They took her to the magistrate

The magistrate said she must die

They hung her to the walnut tree
And that was the end of old Mother Lee

Their tune is a very simple but energetic one, entirely consistent with being used for skipping by children and for nothing else. - Susanne

Subject: Tune Add: WEELA WALLIA
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Oct 98 - 03:27 AM

Here's the tune:

MIDI file: WEELAW~1.MID

Timebase: 192

Name: Weela Wallia
Text: By traditional
Copyright: from the Irish Songbook (Clancy Brothers)
Key: D
TimeSig: 2/2 24 8
Start
0000 1 69 110 0094 0 69 000 0002 1 69 110 0094 0 69 000 0002 1 69 110 0094 0 69 000 0002 1 66 110 0160 0 66 000 0032 1 66 110 0094 0 66 000 0002 1 66 110 0094 0 66 000 0002 1 69 110 0160 0 69 000 0032 1 69 110 0160 0 69 000 0032 1 66 110 0094 0 66 000 0002 1 66 110 0094 0 66 000 0002 1 66 110 0336 0 66 000 0048 1 62 110 0160 0 62 000 0032 1 66 110 0160 0 66 000 0032 1 69 110 0160 0 69 000 0032 1 69 110 0160 0 69 000 0032 1 71 110 0336 0 71 000 0048 1 69 110 0256 0 69 000 0032 1 69 110 0094 0 69 000 0002 1 69 110 0094 0 69 000 0002 1 69 110 0094 0 69 000 0002 1 64 110 0160 0 64 000 0032 1 64 110 0094 0 64 000 0002 1 64 110 0094 0 64 000 0002 1 69 110 0160 0 69 000 0032 1 69 110 0160 0 69 000 0032 1 64 110 0094 0 64 000 0002 1 64 110 0094 0 64 000 0002 1 64 110 0336 0 64 000 0048 1 69 110 0160 0 69 000 0032 1 69 110 0142 0 69 000 0002 1 71 110 0046 0 71 000 0002 1 69 110 0160 0 69 000 0032 1 66 110 0160 0 66 000 0032 1 64 110 0336 0 64 000 0048 1 62 110 0256 0 62 000
End

This program is worth the effort of learning it.

To download the March 10 MIDItext 98 software and get instructions on how to use it click here

ABC format:

X:1
T:Weela Wallia
M:2/2
Q:1/4=120
K:D
AAAF2FFA|-AA2FFF3|-FD2F2A2A|-AB4A3|AAAE2EEA|
-AA2EEE3|-EA2A3/2B/2A2F|-FE4D5/2||

Subject: Or howver you spell it ...
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 04:16 AM

I've seen this described (years ago) as a street song / children's song. It certainly sounds like some of the kids' songs I remember (girls seemed to be particularly fond of gruesome ones for skipping to). It sounds as though it's based on an actual event: can anyone enlighten me?

Steve

Subject: RE: Origins: Weela Weela Walia
From: Snuffy
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 04:24 AM

It's a version of Child Ballad No 20 The Cruel Mother. Start with this thread, then follow the links you'll find there. It'll keep you busy all day.

Subject: RE: Origins: Weela Weela Walia /Wela Wolla
From: GUEST,guest mick
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 07:18 AM

River Salia ,does it exist anywhere or does it mean "salty river"?

Subject: RE: Origins: Weela Weela Walia /Wela Wolla
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 10:32 AM

Snuffy, it sounds too close to some of the others to relate to a recent (19/20th century) event, doesn't it? I was thinking of things like Dr Buck Ruxton (words way down in the left-hand corner; tune Red Sails in the Sunset), which is still in living memory.

mick: dunno! Google only adds to the confusion; it seems to be a Spanish word, but doesn't translate into English (I'd guess it means something like "followers" or "supporters", fom the context and the sound of it). I imagine it's a nonsense word, as I haven't turned up a River Salia/Sallia. (Except it was Latin for R Sella, in Spain.)

More erudition required than we have at the moment!

Steve

Subject: RE: Origins: Weela Weela Walia /Wela Wolla
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 10:38 AM

I always thought it was derived from "sallow" meaning "willow" - and a generic description - not so much the river named "sallia" but down by the river where the willows grow.

Subject: RE: Origins: Weela Weela Walia /Wela Wolla
From: MartinRyan
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 01:45 PM

Dunno about erudition but I can give you a plausible derivation:

..down by the river-side, la (weak syllable to improve scansion)
... down by the river sigh-la   (elision of the d - very Irish!)
... down by the River Sáile    (sáile is an Irish Gaelic for the sea)

Regards

Subject: RE: Origins: Weela Weela Walia /Wela Wolla
From: Snuffy
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 08:28 AM

I don't think it's a Buck Ruxton or Lizzie Borden type real-life thing, but the updating process is fascinating.

BTW, I always thought the river was the "Sawyer"

WassaiL! V

Subject: RE: Origins: Weela Weela Walia /Wela Wolla
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 05:04 AM

Well, it went down well at Bedford FMC last night. I introduced it as a story of a single parent unable to cope, child abuse, Social Services failing to act in time, and the brutal and unsympathetic justice of the Law. And "two policemen and a social worker" got a laugh!

Martin: good suggestions. I'm sure I remember it sung as "river side-y" years back, but that may be down to what my missus calls my dog-like qualities (Deaf Old Git).

Steve

Subject: RE: Origins: Weela Weela Walia /Wela Wolla
From: weerover
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 05:44 AM

I remember having the "two policeman and a man" line explained to me by someone (my imperfect memory thinks possibly Dominic Behan) as indicating that the policemen would have been recognisable as such by their uniforms and the "man" would have been Special Branch.

wr.

Subject: RE: Origins: Weela Weela Walia /Wela Wolla
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 05:58 AM

Subject: RE: Origins: Weela Weela Walia /Wela Wolla
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 06:01 AM

Oops! Sorry about that.

The "man" would be a plain clothes job - detective.

Regards

Subject: RE: Origins: Weela Weela Walia /Wela Wolla
From: AKS
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 06:47 AM

Well, Ronnie Drew (of the Dubliners) sings it "...two policemen and a special branch man..." on one of their recordings of WW...

AKS

Subject: RE: Origins: Weela Weela Walia /Wela Wolla
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 07:14 AM

He certainly does - but children were singing the song long before even Ronnie did!

Regards

Subject: RE: Origins: Weela Weela Walia /Wela Wolla
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 07:35 AM

Subject: RE: Origins: Weela Weela Walia /Wela Wolla
From: Fergie
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 08:18 AM

Circa. 1956/7 I sang this song for my grandfather when he came to visit my father, I sang the version that I had learned from my siblings and from the street skipping, (I was reared in a small suburban housing-estate in northside Dublin) my grandfather said that he also learned it from the skipping.
It was mostly girls who would skip they would use a shortrope, two would swing the rope and a third would run in and skip, they had all sorts of songs and rhymes to keep time. If there was less than three girls then a young boy might be pressed into turning one end of the rope and to help sing out the rythyms.
My grandfather said that he had learned the proper words and he then proceed to teach me the variant of the song that he learned. This is how I remember it.

River Sáile

There was an old woman who lived in the woods
we la, we la, wall la,
and that old woman she wasn't very good
Down by the river Sáile

She had a baby three months old
w
and that little babby was very bold
D

She had a penknife long and sharp
w
She stuck the dagger in the babby's heart
D

She stuck the penknife in the baby's head
w
The more she struck the more it bled
D

She buried the baby in the wood
W
The neighbours they all saw the blood
d

Three hard knocks came knocking on the door
w
And the woman fell down in a faint on the floor
d

T'was two police men and a man
w
and another ouside waiting in the van
d

"Are you the woman that killed the child?"
w
She said "I am" and they went wild
d

They took her away and they put her in the jail
w
Loudly she did bawl and loudly she did wail
d

They put a rope around her neck
w
And dragger her up onto the deck
d

The rope was pulled and she got hung
w
Round and round her body swung
d

Now that was the end of the woman in the woods
w
And that was the end of the babby too
d

The moral of the story is
w
Don't stick a penknive in a babby's head
d

My grand father had me sing the first line, then he would reply in answer with the second line. He said that was how he learned it when he was a child, he was born in the heart of Dublin city in about 1890. He died in 1974 (Ar dheis Dé go raibh a ainm).
You seldom see street skipping in Dublin anymore, and you hear precious little of "the haunting childrens rhymes, that once were part of Dublin in the rare ould times"
Fergus

Subject: RE: Origins: Weela Weela Walia /Wela Wolla
From: weerover
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 03:30 PM

I think the point of the explanation I previously referred to was that Dominic Behan reckoned Ronnie Drew was deviating from the original, as a SB man wouldn't necessarily have been recognised as such.

wr.

Subject: RE: Origins: Weela Weela Walia /Wela Wolla
From: MartinRyan
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 03:37 PM

...by children...

Regards

Subject: RE: Origins: Weela Weela Walia /Wela Wolla
From: Mary Humphreys
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 03:44 PM

A good friend of mine, Terry Whelan from Manchester used to sing a version of this that his two sons had picked up in the school playground - perhaps in the 1970s. I may have some imperfections of memory - sorry Terry!

There was a lady dressed in green
Fare a lair a lido
There was a lady dressed in green
Down by the greenwood side-o.

She had a baby 3 months old

She had a penknife long and sharp

She stuck it in the baby's heart

She went to the well to wash it off

There came a rat-tat at the door

In came three bobbies rushing in      ( bobbies = policemen)

'Are you the woman as killed her child?'

Then off to prison you must go

And that was the end of Mrs Green

Mary Humphreys

Subject: RE: Origins: Weela Weela Walia /Wela Wolla
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 04:42 PM

who knows the origins, maybe its something to do with oppression. Maybe the woman is Ireland, or the people are the english or the church. or maybe its a story about purpural psychosis, a real and devastating disease....
the lar

Subject: RE: Origins: Weela Weela Walia /Wela Wolla
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 04:56 PM

Try www.yorkshirefolksong.net and click on the song 'The Lady of York'
Read the Provenance section. Here is a much reduced version of 'The Cruel Mother' collected from gipsy children in the late nineteenth century. The more recent Irish/Liverpool burlesque may have evolved from such a version. To suggest that any version of The Cruel Mother, even the 16th century version, is based upon any real event is pretty ludicrous.

Subject: RE: Origins: Weela Weela Walia /Wela Wolla
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 03:28 AM

This was a favourite among Irish Traveller children
We recorded a wonderful version from one child who sang the verse about the arrest of the mother as
"Two dead-knockers came knocking at the door", and one London version has;
"The took her in the Black Maria (old term for police waggon)
And tied her up with old barbed-wire".

Don't you just love 'em!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origins: Weela Weela Walia /Wela Wolla
From: HuwG
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 11:17 AM

Nothing to do with origins, but at a session I recently attended, there was a long catalogue of songs involving the killing of faithless girlfriends (Delia's Gone, For the Love of a Portugee, etc). Someone asked, "Can we have a song where the bird doesn't die?" From somewhere on the floor came, "There was an old woman and she lived in the woods, weile, weile, waile..."

Not quite what was requested, but it brought the house down.

Subject: RE: Origins: Weela Weela Walia /Wela Wolla
From: GUEST,O Faolain
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 09:25 PM

My father told me years ago that the song was based on a grandmother whose family had died during the Famine and when it was just her and the baby left rather than watch it die of starvation she killed the baby.I cant find a true timeline on the song and was wondering if anyone heard anything similar or it was an old wives(Fathers) tale.

Subject: RE: Origins: Weela Weela Walia /Wela Wolla
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 10:21 PM

You can be pretty sure that's 'folklore about folklore'; an 'old wives tale' -or father's- if you prefer. People like to be able to explain things so that they make more sense to them or to others, and it's very common to find songs developing 'back-stories', often linking them to particular times, places or individuals. It can give a personal resonance -an enhanced sense of cultural ownership if you like- but that can also lead to a degree of protectiveness when two mutually contradictory stories clash. 'Are you calling my old Grandmother a liar?' You know the sort of thing.

Although this playground version of the centuries-old 'Cruel Mother' story may have Irish roots, it's found all over Britain as well, and it's pretty unlikely that we will ever know where or when it was made into the 'Woman in the Wood' / 'Old Mother Lee' form. You'll find other localized 'explanations' in some of the other discussions here of this song and its many relatives; see the list of links at the top of the page.

Subject: RE: Origins: Weela Weela Walia /Wela Wolla
From: MartinRyan
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 03:02 AM

Just noticed HuwG's post:

Nothing to do with origins, but at a session I recently attended, there was a long catalogue of songs involving the killing of faithless girlfriends (Delia's Gone, For the Love of a Portugee, etc)


Where was the Portugee (along with the woman) slain? I'll drop HuwG a PM.

Regards

Subject: RE: Origins: Weela Weela Walia /Wela Wolla
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 04:02 PM

Martin asked "Where was the Portugee (along with the woman) slain?"

This sounds like The Maid of Camden Town / The Maid of Cabra West.

A FAIRLY recent song, but old enough to have one version set in London, one in Dublin, and nothing obvious to say which came first.

Richard

Subject: RE: Origins: Weela Weela Walia /Wela Wolla
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 04:14 PM

PS -- only after posting that and shutting down the 'pooter did I realise that I was perpetuating the thread drift, and it would have been better as a PM.

Richard

Subject: RE: Origins: Weela Weela Walia /Wela Wolla
From: MartinRyan
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 04:35 PM

Richard

I was just fishing! I know of the two songs and was curious to see if it was the Camden Town version - which I've never known "in the wild", so to speak.

Regards

Subject: RE: Origins: Weela Weela Walia /Wela Wolla
From: JP2
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 11:03 AM

Has anyone come across the version as sung by Wrigley Head Morris Men having stolen and probably mis-learnt, the song from Chris ? at Newtown,Powys, Folk Festival about 20 years ago.
The verses are sung normally but instead of the weelia/wallia chorus it uses the following chorus to a different tune:-


Down by the Walnut tree.
Down by the Sea,where the Walnuts grow,I left my love and dare not go.
Down by the Sea,where the Walnuts,grow,I left my love and dare not
go.

And I wish I could do the dots for you but I can't so there, it doesn't mean I not a good person!
JP2

Subject: RE: Origins: Weela Weela Walia /Wela Wolla
From: goatfell
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 11:14 AM

there's a song from Scotland called the cruel mother and from England called old mother lee and then this one from Ireland, all three are basically the same song

Subject: RE: Origins: Weela Weela Walia /Wela Wolla
From: Mrrzy
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 11:23 AM

That walnut tree one sounds like the Raffi kids' song about Down By THe Bay. Same song? Thread creep, OK, but still, same song?

Subject: RE: Origins: Weela Weela Walia /Wela Wolla
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Sep 09 - 12:48 AM

I learned an "Old Mother Lee" version very similar to the Spinners one above, dated 1970s and apparently learned at school by Tony Davis's sister, in September 1958 from an 11 year old boy called Derek Hastings at Peckham Manor School in S London where I taught.

I published my version in Notes & Queries [Oxford University Press] for March 1966, under title "Murder With A Penknife, a children's song", in which I related it to Child #14, "Babylon; or The Banks Of Fordie", as, my informant, instead of singing 'forty police' as in the Spinners' version, distinctly sang 'the Fordie police'; and because 'The Cruel Mother' and 'Babylon' are the two Child ballads in which a penknife, as distinct from any other sort of implement, is persistently specified as the murder weapon. Any good library will have a set of N&Q in which my arguments, which on rereading I still stand by, can be found fully expounded.

Subject: RE: Origins: Weela Weela Walia /Wela Wolla
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 06 Sep 09 - 10:05 AM

M
Sorry but there are enough versions of WEla Wela and in-between versions to directly relate this to Child 20 and NO OTHER ballad. And there are many Child ballads and others in which a pen knife is specified.

Subject: RE: Origins: Weela Weela Walia /Wela Wolla
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Sep 09 - 11:21 AM

I made the point about other ballads with penknives in a few versions, giving examples (Twa Brothers, Young Hunting); but counted the number of versions in Child of Cruel Mother [12 of 15] and of Babylon [all 6 of 6; with the penknife mentioned not once but repeatedly in all 6] in which a penknife is the murder weapon - no other ballad in the canon could compare with this frequency.

I also got my informant boy to confirm that he had sung "Fordie" & not some other word. His own suggestion was that it meant police in Ford cars: but when I pointed out that the police came running, not driving, up; & that the Met drove Wolsesleys not Fords in those days, he agreed it was so & could offer no further explanation for the name; which, however, he insisted was the right word that he and his mates always sang.

All this is anticipated and dealt with in my article; which I think you would do well, Steve, to read [I repeat, Notes & Queries {OUP}, March 1966, pp 103-104; an easily accessible, by no means obscure, journal] before attacking my conclusions - or, rather, suggestions.

Subject: RE: Origins: Weela Weela Walia /Wela Wolla
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Sep 09 - 12:49 PM

If, indeed, anyone has difficulty getting hold of my N&Q article but would like to read it [which I reiterate it would be more seemly and scholarly to do before denouncing its speculations as Steve Gardham does above], then let me have a postal address by PM or email - mgm@keme[dot]co[dot]uk - and I will gladly send you a photocopy. If, having read it, you think it all bollocks, that will be your privilege. But to denounce it as such WITHOUT having read it, as Steve did, I repeat I must regard as both unmannerly and unscholarly.

Subject: RE: Origins: Weela Weela Walia /Wela Wolla
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 06 Sep 09 - 05:47 PM

Okay, M, I seem to have come across this somewhere before. You're right, I should not condemn a theory without having read it thoroughly, therefore I take up your challenge, but if the gist of the article is based on one word 'Fordie' and the inclusion of the commonplace pen-knife when there are multiple links with 20 and a proven evolution from one to the other, then I will be very skeptical.