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Origins: Martin Said to His Man DigiTrad: WHO'S THE FOOL NOW or MARTIN SAID TO HIS MAN Related threads: Verses: Martin Said to His Man (37) Lyr Req: I know a Milk maid - Napoleonic folk song (10) martin said to his man couplets:who's the fool now (47) |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: The Borchester Echo Date: 24 Apr 04 - 08:56 AM Wonder if he'll come down the M11 to Moreton Village Festival then? June 11 - 13, everybody! |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Kevin Sheils Date: 24 Apr 04 - 08:44 AM Just noticed that Lanfranc used Dom, whereas I used Don, for our old singing colleague. It's true that Dominic was his proper name but tended to call himself Don when I sang with him, maybe it sounded more "godfatherish" he being of Irish/Italian extraction :-). I guess he must have started using Dom later. He was still living in Saffron Walden recently. |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Kevin Sheils Date: 24 Apr 04 - 08:39 AM That was after Don & I sang together Lanfranc. Countess, I last saw Don about 4 (?) years back at the Cellar Upstairs 25th birthday party. Well it was 25 years since Sheila started running the club anyway. He and I sang together again then having been old Cellar residents as well as the Enterprise. Come to think of it, maybe it was the 30th birthday party. |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: alanabit Date: 24 Apr 04 - 08:16 AM I recall Stillwood of Reading doing it unaccompanied in the seventies. I remember one of them said that Tim Hart and Maddy Prior used to sing it together. Who knows more? |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: The Borchester Echo Date: 24 Apr 04 - 07:45 AM Where is Don Bonito? Is he still singing? |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Lanfranc Date: 24 Apr 04 - 07:42 AM I learned it originally from Martin Winsor and Redd Sullivan, but, coincidentally, I also used to sing it with Dom Bonito when we ran Saffron Walden FC together back in the 80s and early 90s. Haven't heard it sung for ages - perhaps I'll essay a revival! Never bothered to analyse it, just regarded it as a fun singalong. Alan |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: GUEST,Charley Noble Date: 24 Apr 04 - 07:39 AM And there are more revelations to come that we should endeavor to put into verse. Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: GUEST,MCP Date: 24 Apr 04 - 05:48 AM See also Wha's Fu' in Digitrad, that (=who's had enough to drink) being a possible origin for who's the fool. Mick |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: The Borchester Echo Date: 24 Apr 04 - 05:47 AM Ah yes. Must have been where I first heard it, upstairs in the Enterprise, Chalk Farm. |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Kevin Sheils Date: 24 Apr 04 - 05:37 AM I used to sing it years ago with Don Bonito. Didn't worry about deep significance, just treated it as a standard drinking chorus song that was handy to get the audience joining in. It's just a list of impossible things you might imagine you'd see when you've had a few. |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Les in Chorlton Date: 24 Apr 04 - 05:17 AM All good stuff. Is it dead old and full of strange meaning: I saw thw man in the moon clouting off St Peter's shoon or is it just Victorian ramblings? |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Morticia Date: 24 Apr 04 - 05:13 AM Kendall here. I believe it's a drunken lie contest among a group of soldiers. A sort of, "Can you top this" |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: The Borchester Echo Date: 24 Apr 04 - 04:42 AM Fill thou the cup and I the can Seems to be a blokish thing about who gets to drink the most. |
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Subject: Martin said to his man From: Les in Chorlton Date: 24 Apr 04 - 04:38 AM Fye, man fye Martin said to his man Who's the fool now? What's that all about then? |
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Subject: Origins: Martin Said to his Man/Who's the Fool Now From: Joe Offer Date: 18 Mar 00 - 03:59 AM Traditional Ballad Index listing: Martin Said To His ManDESCRIPTION: The singer says s/he saw various animals performing various activities, some of which are impossible or unlikely (E.g. "Saw a crow flying low"; "Saw a mule teachin' school"). In some versions, the narrator(s) are drunk, competing to tell the tallest tale.AUTHOR: unknown EARLIEST DATE: 1609 (Deuteromelia; registered as a ballad 1588) KEYWORDS: contest drink lullaby nonballad nonsense paradox talltale animal bug FOUND IN: US(Ap,MW,SE,So) Britain(England,Scotland(Aber)) REFERENCES (19 citations): Kinloch-TheBalladBook XIV, pp. 50-54, "The Man in the Moon" (1 text) Greig/Duncan8 1703, "I Saw a Sparrow" (1 text plus a single verse on p. 401, 1 tune) Porter/Gower-Jeannie-Robertson-EmergentSingerTransformativeVoice #10, pp. 125-126, "Soo Sewin' Silk" (1 text, 1 tune) Reeves/Sharp-TheIdiomOfThePeople 109, "Well Done Liar" (1 text) Randolph 445, "Johnny Fool" (2 texts) Brown/Belden/Hudson-FrankCBrownCollectionNCFolklore3 114, "Kitty Alone" (1 text) Brown/Schinhan-FrankCBrownCollectionNCFolklore5 114, "Kitty Alone" (1 tune plus a text excerpt) Hudson-FolksongsOfMississippi 128, p. 274, "Old, Blind, Drunk John" (1 text) Hudson-FolkTunesFromMississippi 41, "Old, Blind, Drunk John" (1 text, 1 tune) Wyman/Brockway-LonesomeSongs-KentuckyMountains-Vol1, p. 22, "The Bed-time Song" (1 text, 1 tune) Wolfe/Boswell-FolkSongsOfMiddleTennessee 78, pp. 126-128, "Johnny Fool" (1 text, 1 tune) Bush-FSofCentralWestVirginiaVol4, p. 27, "Blind Johnny Boo" (1 short text, 1 tune) Grimes-StoriesFromTheAnneGrimesCollection, p. 62, "The Liar's Song" (1 text, tune) Sulzer-TwentyFiveKentuckyFolkBallads, p. 22, "Nonsense Song No. 1" (1 short text, 1 tune, with a verse from this song although the rest might be anything) Richardson/Spaeth-AmericanMountainSongs, p. 97, "Hurrah, Lie" (1 text, 1 tune) Lomax-FolkSongsOfNorthAmerica 136, "Hurrah, Lie!" (1 text, 1 tune) Chappell-PopularMusicOfTheOldenTime, p. 76, "Who's the Fool Now" (1 text, 1 tune) Chappell/Wooldridge-OldEnglishPopularMusic I, p. 140, "Martin Said to His Man" (1 text, 1 tune) DT, HURRALIE* WHOSFOOL* Roud #473 RECORDINGS: Martha Hall, "Kitty Alone" (on MMOK, MMOKCD) Lizzie Higgins, "Soo Sewin' Silk" (on LHiggins01) CROSS-REFERENCES: cf. "Gossip Joan (Neighbor Jones)" (theme) ALTERNATE TITLES: Old Blind Drunk John Fooba-Wooba John NOTES [616 words]: Referred to in Dryden's 1668 play "Sir Martin Mar-all, or the Feign'd Innocence" (act IV). It seems to have been very popular in the century prior to that. Hyder E. Rollins, An Analytical Index to the Ballad-Entries (1557-1709) In the Register of the Company of Stationers of London, 1924 (I use the 1967 Tradition Press reprint with a new Foreword by Leslie Shepard), p. 146, #1681, gives the Stationer's Register entry for this as "Martyn said to his man, who is the foole now," printed November 9, 1588 by Thomas Orwin. Rollins notes, in addition to Dryden's citation, that the title is used in Anthony Brewer's "Love-Sick King," Act III, and that someone named Collier in Notes & Queries, second series, XII, 143, connected this with someone by the name of Martin Skinck. The American versions can generally be told by their narrative pattern, "(I) saw a () (doing something)," e.g. "Saw a crow flying low," "Saw a mule teaching school," "Saw a louse chase a mouse," "Saw a flea wade the sea." The versions under the title "Kitty Alone" are sometimes a mix of this and "Frog Went A-Courting"; the first such text seems to have been in Gammer Gurton's Garland (1784), which has clearly a "Frog" plot but the form (and some of the exaggerations) of this piece. I'm sure there are some who have argued that the ancient English "Martin Said To His Man" is not the same as the modern American texts. But there is continuity of verses, believe it or not, and the theme never changes. And there is no way to draw a dividing line. There is a similar if not identical song that is even older than the "Martin" versions, which I was sorely tempted to lump with this. In the famous Richard Hill manuscript (Oxford, MS. Balliol College 354; see "MSRichardHill" in the Bibliography), folio 54 contains this lyric I sawe a stokfysshe drawynge a harow, and a-noder dryveng a barow, and a saltfysshe shoteyng an arow, I will have þe whetstone, and I may. It ends with this lyric: I sawe an ege etying a pye; Geve me drynke, my mowth ys drye; Yet ys not long syth I made a lye I will have þe whetstone, and I may. I.e. I saw an egg eating a [mag]pie. Give me drink, my mouth is dry, Yet [it] is not long since I made a lie, I will have the whetstone, and I may. References for this is song include: - Greene-TheEarlyEnglishCarols, #471, p. 317, "(I saw a doge sethyng sowse)" (1 text) - Roman Dyboski, Songs Carols, and Other Miscellaneous Poems from the Balliol Ms. 354, Richard Hill's Commonplace Book, 1908 (I use a [crummy] Forgotten Books print-on-demand copy made in 2016), #92, p. 110 - Brown/Robbins-IndexOfMiddleEnglishVerse, #1350 DigitalIndexOfMiddleEnglishVerse #256 There is a discussion in David R. Parker, The Commonplace Book in Tudor London: An Examination of BL MSS Egerton 1995, Harley 2252, Lansdowne 762, and Oxford Balliol College MS354, University Press of America, 1998, p. 82. Greene-TheEarlyEnglishCarols, p. 453, explains the chorus line about the whetstone by saying that it was the custom in the Middle Ages to tie a whetstone about the neck of a convicted liar when he was in pillory. Thus "I will have the whetstone, and I may" implies "I will earn the whetstone for telling the biggest lie." - RBW Reeves/Sharp-TheIdiomOfThePeople throws a bawdy light on some verses. For "I saw a wren kill a man" it cites Partridge's A Dictionary of Slang and Unconventional Slang to make "wren" "a harlot frequenting Curragh Camp, military 1869" [did the Women's Royal Naval Service -- Wrens -- of the World Wars escape this slang?]. For "I saw a maid milk a bull Every stroke a bucket full," "one of the meanings of 'milk' in the same source is 'cause sexual ejaculation'." - BS Last updated in version 6.2 File: WB022 Go to the Ballad Search form Go to the Ballad Index Instructions The Ballad Index Copyright 2023 by Robert B. Waltz and David G. Engle. WHO'S THE FOOL NOW or MARTIN SAID TO HIS MAN (DT Lyrics) Martin said to his man, fie, man, fie Martin said to his man, who's the fool, now Martin said to his man, Fill thou the cup and I the can Thou hast well drunken man, who's the fool now I saw the man in the moon, fie, man, fie I saw the man in the moon, who's the fool, now I saw the man in the moon, Clouting of St. Peter's shoon Thou hast well drunken, man, who's the fool, now I saw the goose ring the hog, fie, man, fie I saw the goose ring the hog, who's the fool, now I saw the goose ring the hog, saw the snail bite the dog Thou hast well drunken, man, who's the fool, now I saw the hare chase the hound, fie, man, fie I saw the hare chase the hound, who's the fool, now I saw the hare chase the hound, Twenty miles above the ground Thou hast well drunken, mn, who's the fool, now I saw the mouse chase the cat, fie, man, fie I saw the mouse chase the cat, who's the fool now I saw the mouse chase the cat, Saw the cheese eat the rat Thou hast well drunken, man, who's the fool now I saw a flea heave a tree, fie, man, fie I saw a flea heave a tree, who's the fool now I saw a flea heave a tree, twenty miles out to sea Thou hast well drunken, man, who's the fool now I saw a maid milk a bull, fie, man, fie I saw a maid milk a bull, who's the fool now I saw a maid milk a bull, at every pull a bucket full Thou hast well drunken, man, who's the fool now Martin said to his man, fie, man, fie Martin said to his man, who's the fool, now Martin said to his man, Fill thou the cup and I the can Thou hast well drunken man, who's the fool now Printed in Popular Music of the Olden Time, Chappelle Licensed in 1588 to Thomas Orwin. The Scots sing Wha's Fu' Noo; Seems like a reasonable predecessor, but reason leads folklorists aft agley. RG @drink @animal @plant @talltale filename[ WHOSFOOL TUNE FILE: WHOSFOOL CLICK TO PLAY sung by John and Tony on Spencer the Rover and by Hart and Prior on Old England SOF
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