Bob Shane is done after 47 years (2004)

Subject: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: Once Famous
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 10:00 PM

From the for what it's worth department, Bob Shane, the last of the original members of the Kingston Trio, and the only one left of the originals who has been performing with some version of the Kingston Trio for 47 straight years has had at age 70 a heart attack and has been forced into retirement. He is expected to recover but is on oxygen 24/7. Former Limelighter Bill Zoern is taking his place.

This leaves this "brand name" group without any original members, who are taking bows at concerts at $40 a ticket for the hits others have made.

Unbelievable how the public is so easily duped.

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: Janie
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 10:05 PM

The Kingston Trio was my introduction to folk music, and I have heard many others here say the same. They had a lot of fun, and they were a lot of fun to listen to. Prayers and hopes for a speedy recovery to Bab Shane and his family and friends.

Janie

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 10:20 PM

I tend to agree with most of your post Martin, however Bob Haworth first joined the group in 1985, left after three years, and returned in 1999 when Nick Reynolds retired. George Grove has been with the group since 1976. That is longer service than the orignal trio put in (4 years - Dave Guard left in 1961 which was the first of numerous lineup changes.) If the public is "duped", they have been duped sinced 1961. I don't think most people expect the original three members when they see the group.

Yes, you are right, none of the original Trio remains with Shane out of the lineup, but the sound and spirit is what ultimately draws the fans.   Frankly, I saw them last year (with Shane) and I felt that they did not have the same energy that the original trio had, but it was an enjoyable evening by a group of entertainers.

The other "fact" of life, the Kingston Trio has bookings in place that they need to honor.

I also checked a posting from Bob Shane on a fan website, and he has said that he hopes to return to the lineup. We shall see.

I wish him a quick and speedy recovery. The Kingston Trio has taken their lumps over the years, and I do feel that their contribution to ENTERTAINMENT AND FOLK MUSIC is the reason why websites like Mudcat exist.   If it weren't for the commercial interest that developed, we may not have had a folk revival.

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 10:24 PM

Here is a note that Bob Shane posted on Kingston Krossroads

Dear Fans & Friends,
On March 21st I suffered a heart attack and went to the Mayo Hospital in Phoenix for a 5 day stay. An angiogram showed that there is no artery blockage and no significant damage to my heart, so no surgery-which is good. However, I was diagnosed with Congestive Heart Failure which means that my heart was operating below normal and not pumping the fluid out of my lungs. I also had pneumonia, or at the very least, a respiratory infection, which complicated everything. The Mayo was successful in getting me out of heart failure & getting the fluid off my lungs. They also put me on heart meds for heart strength and sent me home. However, I've also been put on oxygen 24/7 indefinitely. My current plans are to pay attention to the doctors (who have said retirement for now-no guarantees) and try to work myself back to working condition. In the meantime, Bill Zorn , who was one of the KT from 1972-1976, has stepped in for me, joining Bob Haworth and George Grove. They are doing fantastic Kingston Trio shows with standing ovations and many compliments. And they do have my blessing. I won't be able to respond to all your emails but I do appreciate all thoughts and prayers from all of you. You have been loyal to me and the Kingston Trio for 47 years and I thank you all for your continuing support. And also, so you know, I am feeling really good-better than I have felt in along time-and the doctors are very pleased with my progress. They are of the opinion that my heart volume is already back up. So, for now I'm going to take it easy and enjoy my (hopefully temporary) retirement.

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: Deckman
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 10:28 PM

You know Ron, you are absolutly correct. If it had not been for the Kingston Trio, the popularity of folk music, as we in America know it today, would have lost many years. I'm amazed that I said that, as I was already singing in coffee houses and college concerts BEFORE anyone heard of the trio. And I, early on, got sick and tired of people asked me if I learned a particuliar song from the trio, or if I would sing "Tom Dooley." Bob

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: Scoville
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 10:36 PM

Oh, no! I grew up with them. My parents were big fans when the whole thing started.

I saw them on that concert thing that PBS showed last year and thought they still sounded pretty damned good, original members or not. They were probably the best act in the lineup. They blew the Highwaymen out of the water, at any rate.

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 10:49 PM

Deckman, last November I had the pleasure - no, honor - of introducing being the MC for a concert that they gave here in NJ.   Bob Shane said something that I found very interesting. He said that the Kingston Trio never claimed to be "folk" musicians, they were entertainers. They are, good ones too.

This conversation reminds me of an article that I found in an old copy of Time Magazine. It was dated November 22, 1962 and it was an issue that featured Joan Baez on the cover.   The article was about the folk revival that was going on. The closing paragraph stated:

"Folk singing may be a fad just now, but it will never roll off like the Hula Hoop. As its long history demonstrates, it has staying power. It has something that people who are constantly bathed in canned entertainment can do for themselves. At its best, it unpretentiously calls up a sense of history. It shines with language in which short words and images go long distances, upstream all the way against main currents of polished grammar. And, unpontifically, it dusts off the sturdier and simpler values of American life - some of which are against the law:
You just lay ther by the juniper,
While the moon is bright,
Watch them jugs a-filling
In the pale moonlight."

It holds true today. Those words, written 42 years ago, probably are the best I've ever heard of defining "folk music".

The article itself describes the "scene" and many of the players of the day.   The Kingston Trio is mentioned as well as how purists labeled them as "Impures or Popularizers". But the article says "...carping aside, the Kingstons are accomplished entertainers, and many of their critics, Johnny-come-latelies to purity, forget that they probably woudl never have heard of folk music if they had not been first attracted by a heel-stomping ditty rendered by the Kingston Trio".

Well put.   

Take care of yourself Bob!

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 10:52 PM

I have mixed emotions about this, as I imagine most of us do. I too owe a lot to being introduced to a lot of folk songs by the Kingston Trio, although I was already a great fan of Lonnie Donegan and Bob Gibson before I heard much by the trio. I wish Bob Shane God speed in recovering his health, whether he ever performs with the trio or not.

About ten years ago, I was asked to recommend an opening act for the Kingston Trio and suggested Sally Rogers and Howie Bursen (who I thought did a fine job, to a polite response.) But, everyone was waiting to hear the songs they listened to when they were in college, and they lapped up the Kingston Trio, despite their being sadly sloppy in their performance. In a way, it didn't make a difference.

A few years ago, I had a good friend who was still in his teens, who became one of The Coasters. He was in one of several groups all licensed as The Coasters, and toured nationally. I don't even think he was born when The Coasters were popular, and he was a white kid from an afluent family in Connecticut. Not particularly "rootsy."

Several years ago, I went to hear another favorite group of mine... the Four Freshmen. Talk about being held back... No one in the group was from the original Four Freshmen, but they were singing the same arrangements, and were under tight control by one of the original Freshmen and seemed to respect their heritage. They were also multi-talented musicians and had arranged more recent songs in the classic Four Freshmen harmony.

I guess all I'm saying is that whenever you try to relive a part of your past musical life, you take your chances.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: Once Famous
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 11:07 PM

Now I didn't mean to come on too harsh on this. I also wish Shane a full recovery and hope he can come back. I also credit The Kingston Trio for influencing me. I virtually learned to play guitar by playing along with their records and an early group I was in covered their songs to a tee.

However, I have a major problem with groups capitalizing on a name. I followed the trio even when Dave Guard left and maybe even enjoyed it more when John Stewart replaced him. In 1967, Shane, Reynolds, and Stewart disbanded and to me that was the end.

I disagree Ron. True, George Grove has been there many years and is a somewhat talented musician and entertainer, but he wasn't involved in any of the 20 odd albums recorded during the Shane,Reynolds, Guard/Stewart creative days. Bob Haworth has been a journeyman folk era performer who has been put in a striped shirt only when there has been a death (Roger Gamble) or a retirement (Reynolds for the 2nd time).

True, there are bookings to honor. But a sign on the door should have a disclaimer. Shane's precense and continuity lended at least 33 1/3% credibility. With Shane out, fans are getting a total reproduction and illusion. They are not getting their money's worth and I think this crowd is overall oblivious. I've been to some of these shows in recent years also.

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 11:34 PM

Ron, thanks, very much, for posting the quote from the old article. That's one of the very best I've ever read.

I, too, send well wishes to Shane.

kat

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 12:29 AM

You make a good point about the disclaimer Martin. At the very least, they should mention the names of the performers in the group in all ads.

I am probably in the minority on this, but I would hope that if Bob can't come out of "retirement" to re-join the Kingston Trio, the Trio continue on. As Jerry Rasmussen pointed out, some of the vocal groups can carry on and uphold the original sound with respect. Guy Lombardo's Royal Canadians still tour, as does the Glenn Miller Orchestra. I would hope that audiences for those big bands are going to the concerts to see the namesakes, but they are trying to recapture a feeling or perhaps to experience it for the first time. The same can be true with the Kingston Trio. I would hope that they don't try to pull the wool over anyones eyes. I doubt they would do that.

A group can be more than an individual name. Although, I am reminded of the story about the guy that owned the ax that George Washington used to chop down the cherry tree.   The blade fell off about 50 years ago and they had to replace it with a new one. About 10 years ago the handle broke off and they put on a new one. Still, it is the ax the George used!!!!

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: Once Famous
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 12:41 AM

So, if the Kingston Trio were to be elected to say The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame for example, the three imposters get to go up and claim the award, right?

There are way too many "brand name" groups out there riding the wave of artists who came before them. It becomes nothing more than a tribute group who gets to legally call themselves a musical brand name.

And for the record, if I am not mistaken, Dave Guard originally left in 1961 because of creative differences. So did Stewart and Reynolds in 1967. Bob Shane has done a fine job of entertaining ever since. But artistically and creatively, he came to a standstill 37 years ago.

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: DonMeixner
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 12:57 AM

This my Great Grandfather's axe. My Grandfather put on a new handle and my Dad replaced the head after it broke but it is still my Great Grandfather's Axe.

And George Grove is considerable more than "somewhat talented".

Would they still be The Kingston Trio if Nick Reynolds and John Stewart joined George Grove on Stage? Or something else? There was still "The Sons of the Pioneers" long after Roy Rogers, Bob Nolan, Tim Spencer, and Hugh and Karl Farr left the group.

I think TKT is as much a style and a franchise as it is a singular unit of musicians. And I won't debate the right or wrong of this type of entertainment combination. And whether or not the name should be changed to reflect the passing of the Old Guard is enyirely up to the principals involved. Given the chance I'd go hear this group with what ever name they used.

Don

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 01:06 AM

"The Kingston Trio were to be elected to say The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame for example, the three imposters get to go up and claim the award, right?"

The question doesn't apply, but I get your point. I could be wrong, but I believe all members of a group that is inducted share in the honor. I believe all of the ex-Supremes shared in the honor, except for the diva who did not show up.

I'm not disagreeing with you that there are too many "tribute" bands who rip off the name, but you are not doing a service to those groups that do try to respect the original sound and tradition. I believe the Kingston Trio did that. They may not have the chops that they once did, but I think they have a right to do so. People do not have to attend a concert or purchase a CD of a group they do not like or care for.

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 01:20 AM

Speaking of Washington's old ax that's had two new blades and five new handles, how about the Ink Spots?

All of the big bands had members coming & going; when do they quit being the original? What about the Mormon Tabernacle Choir? Which one's the real one?

When I was nine or ten I found a little book on Buddhism. An E. Haldeman-Julius Little Blue Book, 5¢. It suggested you think on a candle flame. Is the flame now the same flame you lit two minutes ago? What if you'd blown it out after a minute and then lit it again? What if you light another candle from it? Or several?

So I've been thinking on it for a long time now, off & on. It's about Identity, and what's the difference between a noun and a verb and all like that there.

Seems to me like whether a group is The Original or not is a question of scholarship, or maybe sentiment. The musical question is whether they're worth listening to or not.

clint

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: Deckman
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 02:05 AM

Ron ... Talk about a time lapse! I not only remember that particular Time magazine with Joan on the cover, but as I read the words you quoted, I remembered them exactly! Well said and well done, on your part.

I wish to make a gentle shift on this thread. To me, speaking ONLY for myself, the Kingston Trio represent something that killed something with their birth. With their birth, and impact, on the American populiar music scene, we suddenly lost what was almost virgin in American folk music.

We lost the innocence of our own music. Before the trio reved up our popular music vibes, I could find great pleasure in the occasional singer enjoying "Barbary Allen." I could loose myself in the feldging banjo player stumbling through "Soldiers Joy." (I still do, of course).

But when the phenomona of the trio really impacted America, it seemed that it became ... "Kingston Trio" or nothing. As a fledgling performer myself, I couldn't compete, and I didn't want to. What I wanted to do was to honestly present my songs (our songs) honestly.

I mean these words in no way to disscredit any of their achievements. They have done much and have worked for and deserve all their rewards. But I still remember the absolute "sillyness" that some of us went through, back in the earlier years, trying to "entertain" folks when the only measurement of entertainment was the Kingston Trio.

Am I making any sense here? CHEERS Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: alanabit
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 04:53 AM

Obviously I'm looking at this from a different angle to Americans who were around for the folk revival. I don't know so much about the history of the band, but I do know that I would not hesitate to go and see any act which used the talents of Bill Zorn. He's a fine singer and banjo player, a very funny man and a nice bloke as well. I'd expect a good evening's entertainment.

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 07:36 AM

Is creativity interchangeable? Can anyone sing the leads on the Platters songs like Tony Williams? Or replace Buddy Holly in the Crickets? Or Sam Cooke with the Soul Stirrers? Of course someone CAN sing the leads and get the notes and words right, but how much is lost? Maybe with the Kingston Trio no one was such a distinctive creative force that they can still approximate the original sound.
People may be able to enjoy a group calling themselves the Kingston Trio just for the memories, or just because the group sings with enthusiasm.

So, why not have a touring Weavers group? We could all sing along on Goodnight, Irene. Would it be the same? I don't think so.

So, where is Doctor Jimmy on this one?

Jerry

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 07:48 AM

If you have a favourite knife, and you break the blade, and replace it, and then a few years later you break the handle, and replace that - is it the same knife at the end of it all?

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: jimmyt
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 08:33 AM

Jerry I just woke up to this thread and I am so confused about axheads and candles I need to get some coffee before I process it! grin

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 09:03 AM

Hey, Jimmy:

Funny thing is, I'd rather hear your group doing Kingston Trio songs than I would a group of people who were never really a part of the Kingston Trio using the brand name. Then, I'd just find enjoyment in your enthusiasm and accept the music for what it was. I know that your group is not pretending to be the Kingston Trio, or the Highwaymen, or the Weavers. You're just singing the old pop versions of folk songs because you enjoy doing it.

I can dig enjoyment.

(I opened for the Highwaymen at the Gaslight Cafe in Greenwich Village in the early 60's, by the way.) It wasn't the most brilliant booking decision, as I was trying to sound like a scratchy, tinny old 78 rpm recordning of some old toothless geezer sitting on the back porch of a tumble down shack in the Southern Appalachians. As determinedly authentic as I could fake.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: Amos
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 09:22 AM

That's the difference between an institution and an individual name. Noone will ever be able to play as Pete or Bob; but a collective noun, like a corporation, need never die. You wouldn't whine because the Barnum and Bailey Circus hired new clowns, wouldja?

A

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: jimmyt
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 09:33 AM

In all truth, this thread has probably the kindest words for the Kingston Trio that I have ever read here. I am quite surprised that this many people has this much nice to say about the trio.

I can understand Deckman's situation in that there was lots of folk music being performed before the Kingston Trio broke on the scene. It would have been annoying to have the audience suddenly swing to a different listening style. Bob, someone else once said here that an audience member told him he wasn't performing Tom Dooley correctly because that wasn't how the Kingston Trio did it. (dispite the fact that he had been performing the song for several years before their recording) I guess the Kingston Trio is kind of like Walmart, slick, commercial, and generally screwing up the small businesses.

As Jerry knows, I have a warm place in my heart for the Kingston Trio, as my group performs predominately Kingston Trio genre music to great audiences who, like us, are probably not as deep in folk music as this forum.

I can see Martin's point, there should be some acknowledgement of the makeup of the group, but I imagine the audience will be wowed by the performance one way or another. I guess the listening audience is influenced by the original recordings of the performers, and are pretty forgiving in live performance. Nostalgia is probably a pair of earmuffs for the average audience member, right or wrong.

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: Big Jim from Jackson
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 09:46 AM

To quote a song I heard on a Johnny McEvoy record, "You play all the notes and sing all the words, but you never quite learned the song." Why not do the thing that was done back in the '60's---rename the group---The NEW Christy Minstrels comes to mind, as an example. Then the attitude, enthusiasm, and purpose can be maintained without the counterfit aspects becoming a problem. In fact, it becomes a kind of tribute.

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: Deckman
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 10:05 AM

Jimmyt ... I agree with you that there are many kind words being thoughtfully expressed on this thread. Very refreshing! My earlier comments regarding the Kingston Trio becoming on almost overnight "standard" of some kind, also applied to the "Joan Baez" phenomina. However in the case of Joan, she established her music credentials early on. And as someone said, the Kingston Trio didn't represent themselves as any kind of "folk song experts." They saw themselves for what they were, entertainers. And I would add, they were (are) damned good at it.

I'm enjoying the comments to this thread. Bob

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: Flash Company
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 10:21 AM

I saw the trio many years ago in Manchester (England) My recolection is of three guys who appeared to be enjoying themselves, a lot of in jokes, and entertaining music.
I never really looked on them as pure 'folk', and I think 'A Ballad of the Shape of Things' was the only song of their's that I ever used. Still enjoyed them though, and wish Bob a speedy recovery.

FC

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 10:57 AM

I always marvel at people who complain about the Kingston Trio's lack of "folk" credentials and then in the same breath talk about how they loved groups like the Weavers or New Lost City Ramblers or other folk revival artists.   All of these groups "borrowed" songs that they learned from other sources.   The only knock you could make on the Kingston Trio were that they never hid the fact that they had no "authenticity" and freely admitted to being entertainers.   They found a way to make money with the music, which apparently is another sin. You would think that they somehow managed to burn or hide all the other sources. They also inspired countless others to become "fans" of folk music. Imagine that - actually breaking up the country club atmosphere!!   They even had the nerve to copyright some of the traditional songs. Oh, sorry, I forgot that it was the Weavers who did that before the Kingston Trio.

It is kind of ironic when you think about it - the only artists who can really be considered "authentic" are the singer-songwriters who actually write about their own experiences.

We've really drifted from Martin's original post, and I am as guilty as anyone for that. Again, I feel that the Kingston Trio should carry on. The fact that the group has been performing nearly non-stop for 47 years (with the exception of a sabbatical during the late 60's, early 70's), the group has an established lineup and sound. It is not like a group of new artists suddently adopting the name and going on the road.   Haworth & Groves have a right to add Zorn to the group and carry on. I am not sure who actually owns the name, but I am guessing it is Bob Shane. He certainly has the right to see the legacy carried on.

I'm not a huge Kingston Trio fan either. I do respect their place in history and I do think that their performances are fun.   Nothing beats a healthy well cooked meal, but every now and then a slice of pizza hits the spot.

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: Once Famous
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 11:46 AM

Ron, Bob Shane does own the name. In the late '60s/early '70s, he didn't and did tour and did some recordings as The New Kingston Trio because someone else did own the name. When he got the rights, the "New" was dropped.

I also am amazed by the response here. The Kingston Trio for me were a major influence for me right down to Nick Reynold's harmony singing which I still can emulate to this day. I knew they were entertainers for sure, but I also saw them as artists. There was a major attempt at art and creativity in the later years, fueled by John Stewart's songwriting. What emerged later was predictable entertainment imitating art. I could not accept this until Nick Reynolds emerged for the dozen or so years from 1988 until his second and final retirement in 1999. There was more integrity then because two thirds of the group were at least imitating the art that they themselves created.

There is nothing wrong with being a nostalgia group. There is nothing wrong with making money at it. However, musical groups and artists who make recordings do put a personal stamp on their output. Comparing this to the Barnum & Bailey Circus, where any clown will do, is far from the same as hearing and identifying a voice and a personality like Bob Shane sing Scotch & Soda. Would you accept four different guys calling themselves the Beetles, also?

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: freightdawg
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 12:11 PM

There is something distressing about seeing entertainers age and lose their sharpness, voice, whatever. It kind of reminds all of us that, if we are lucky to live as long, the same fate awaits all of us.

Like so many who have posted above, I came to appreciate what is now called "folk" music through my father's recordings of The Kingston Trio and Peter, Paul and Mary. We also had several Burl Ives recordings, although its funny because I never considered him in the same genre - it just goes to show how broad the river of "folk" really is. I too have appreciated the overall kind comments. Reading folks bash the Trio or PP&M is kind of like having someone spit on your first grade teacher's grave. To those of us who were kids during the "revival", that is our "formative" music. That is not to disrespect those pioneers who made it possible for the Trio, but it is a matter of emphasis. That which influences us first, usually influences us the greatest.

I like the idea of a slight name change, keeping the identity of the primary group, but communicating that the legend can continue. Someone mentioned the New Christy Minstrels, and I am reminded of groups like Clearance Clearwater Revisited, vis. Revival. It really doesn't bother me that much with a group like the Kingston Trio, or even the Statler Bros. (who changed one group member before their retirement). But continuing a living heritage is what folk music is all about, right?

Freightdawg

Subject: Lrr Add: Hedehog's Song
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 12:43 PM

"Oh, you know all the words, and you sung all the notes,
But you never quite learned the song" - that was the Incredible String Band's to start with. Good song:

The Hedgehog's Song Lyrics

I'm not the kind to complain
That I never had a girl to love.
Many a fine girl I tried hard to know,
But I think I never tried enough.

Sitting one day by myself,
And I'm thinking, "What could be wrong?"
When this funny little Hedgehog comes running up to me,
And it starts up to sing me this song.

Oh, you know all the words, and you sung all the notes,
But you never quite learned the song, she sang.
I can tell by the sadness in your eyes,
That you never quite learned the song.

Every day when the sun go down,
And the evening is so very still,
Many a fine girl I've held in my arms,
And I hope there's many more that I will,
But just when everything is going fine,
And absolutely nothing is wrong,
This funny little Hedgehog's always around
And every time he wants to sing me this song.

Oh, you know all the words, and you sung all the notes,
But you never quite learned the song, she sang.
I can tell by the sadness in your eyes,
That you never quite learned the song.

One day when the moon was full I thought I might settle down,
Found myself a pretty little girl,
And I stopped all my running around;
But just when the preacher come along,
And he's just gonna pop on the ring,
This funny little Hedgehog comes
running down the aisle,
And I don't have to tell you what he did sing.

Oh, you know all the words, and you sung all the notes,
But you never quite learned the song, she sang.
I can tell by the sadness in your eyes,
That you never quite learned the song.

I'm not the kind to complain
That I never had a girl to love;

Many fine girls I've tried hard to know,
But I think I never tried enough.
But now I'll be looking all my days,
And it isn't just me I got to please,
There's this funny little Hedgehog
Who's always around,
And the only words he ever sings to me are these.
Oh, you know all the words and you sung all the notes,
But you never quite learned the song, she sang.
I can tell by the sadness in your eyes,
That you never quite learned the song.

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 12:44 PM

"Would you accept four different guys calling themselves the Beetles, also?"

There is a big difference (aside from the spelling).

The Beatles broke up in 1970. End of story. The Kingston Trio kept going (aside from the few years off). The story continues with new chapters and characters and links to the past.

If a group gradually replaces members and continues on, I see no reason why they shouldn't continue to use the name. Haworth and Grove have put their time in with the group, especially Grove. It is not like three new members have suddenly appeared on stage.

Please don't get me wrong, I do see your point. For me personally, I am not as bothered by it since I do see a body of work that has been built in more recent history that deserves to be kept up.

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: freightdawg
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 04:56 PM

Aaack, gag, spit, sputter!!!

Memo to self---read the darn post before you hit submit!!!!


To all the CCR fans out there - a huge and tremendous apology.

That is Creedence Clearwater Revival.

Way too much shopping for a good, inexpensive laptop computer (hence the "clearance" on the brain.)

For an encore, I will tell the story of how Louis Armstrong was the first man to step on the moon.

Once again, sorry to all the CCR fans out there. I'm really not smoking dope, really.

A very red in the muzzle,

Freightdawg

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: GUEST,Mary Katherine
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 05:29 PM

A lot of this is personal perception vs "name" recognition. Most people who buy tickets to see the Mormon Tabernacle Choir, or the Boys' Choir of Harlem, probably have no idea of any one singer's name, but you have a "percepetion" of what kind of musical style you'll hear onstage. On the other hand you have a group called "Peter, Paul & Mary" -this is name recognition, because each individual in the group is specifically named, and any substitution would make them no longer the group one paid to hear.
When Pete Seeger left the Weavers they carried on with various folks in Pete's place (Erik Darling, Frank Hamilton, etc.) and were still the Weavers. And everybody knew what they would hear at their concerts.
At the end of the day, there's no deception being practised here; Bob Shane has come right out and said that he won't be able to perform onstage for awehile, and those who are still Kingston Trio fans, who loyally continue to buy their records and attend their concerts, are probably going to show up regardless of who's in the group; folks who are *not* K3 fans probably won't care either way.

Mary Katherine

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: Once Famous
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 06:24 PM

Except many true Kingston Trio fans, myself included, did feel that the voices and personalities during the group's recording heyday did stop going to concerts and buying records. The Mormon Tabernacle Choir I am sure never had any records featuring distinctive solo performer voices and personalities. They are a group without a name or a face. To many, the Trio were quite the opposite.

In the case of the Kingston Trio, where as once they were artists and entertainers, the replacements simply became entertainers emulating the art of their predecessors. This even more holds true when no original members exist.

And Ron, the body of work with George Grove has always been the same body of work arranged, in some cases written, and recorded by the groups with either Guard/Stewart in them from the 20 or so albums 1957-1967.

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: Art Thieme
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 06:39 PM

Martin Gibson, please don't have a heart attack, but I must say that "Raspberries Strawberries", "Scotch And Soda", "Fast Freight", "Three Jolly Coachmen", "South Coast", Fred Geis's song "Goin' Home", "Darlin' Corey", "The New Frontier" --- even "Banua" and "Merry Minuet" were all good songs well done. At risk of destoying my image here, I listened to and enjoyed these and many more.

I wish Bob Shane a quick recovery.

A question: No big deal, but did Nick ever learn to play a 6-string guitar? ;-)

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: Art Thieme
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 06:46 PM

The group called WEAVERMANIA is one of my favorites around Chicago these days. Pete joined them in a concert recently at the Chicago Historical Society and it was just FUN!!

Art

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: Once Famous
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 07:05 PM

Art, I enjoyed all of those songs, also and glad to hear you bring them up! They were all great songs and I am glad the Trio had that kind of impact on you. To tell you the truth, Shane, Reynolds, and Guard/Stewart had more impact on many more people that really care to admit it. They are way to unrecognized for their contribution.

If Nick Reynolds played a six string instead of playing that Martin 0-18T tenor at that frantic pace, the sound wouldn't have been the same! To me, the group is just not the group without him. Others felt the same about Dave Guard. Or Bob Shane? Can you say that about the Mormon Tabernacle choir?

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: Folkiedave
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 07:14 PM

We do acccept classical orchestras and choirs without a qualm.

If they aren't doing it "right" then we stop going. Surely the same applies to the KT to at least a certain extent?

Dave
www.collectorsfolk.co.uk

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: Lady Hillary
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 09:04 AM

EBarnacle here.

There is a new group performing called "The Work of the Weavers." Dave Bernz, the sparkplug of the group, essentially grew up in the Seeger household and was brought into the Sloop Singers by Pete. As mentioned earlier, his performance style is very similar to Pete's.

He is not a Pete clone but he was brought up in the tradition, respects it and is carrying it on. The key here is THE TRADITION, not trying to be a replica of the original group. They could all qualify as "Red diaper" types and are interested in the ongoing labor struggle. At least one of them is self employed and I don't believe that any of them will get rich from this effort. In essence, they are doing what they believe is right, doing it well and enjoying themselves. Who could ask for more.

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 09:28 AM

Work O'The Weavers are a good group, they will be performing at the Paramus Picture Show in Paramus, NJ this coming Saturday May 1. They do a fascinating historical presentation and they do a good job of honoring the spirit of the Weavers and carrying on the tradition - and they tell the story to a new generation. Who could ask for more?

The difference is, they do not claim to be the Weavers, nor does Weavermania.   The Kingston Trio claims to be the same group, and as I said previously, they are since two of the members have a long history with the group, and Shane's replacement also has history.

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 10:08 AM

Having met Bill Zorn and seen him sing and play, he is one great musician,and as alanabit says, you couldn't meet a nicer man.
From what I've heard of the Kingston Trio, Bill would outshine them all.
eric

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 01:02 PM

Once again, considering our history of splintering lances here on various Mudcat threads, I find myself in the peculiar position of being in agreement with Martin Gibson.

Recently I've seen television commercials for one of the Native American casinos near Seattle advertising that, along with the usual gambling, they feature night club entertainment consisting of "tributes" to various well-known performers such as Garth Brooks, Barbra Striesand, Frank Sinatra, etc, and, of course, the usual Elvis impersonator. Somehow I feel pretty much the same way about a Kingston Trio that does not include Guard or Shane or Reynolds as I do about these "tribute" entertainers. They don't exactly stir me off the couch.

Granted, there is what might be called a "through line," in that the group known as "The Kingston Trio" changed its members one at a time; but since it now consists of none of the original members, it's simply not the same group. I don't think the analogy of the Mormon Tabernacle Choir applies. The Mormon Tabernacle Choir, or the Boston Symphony, or any other large group are institutions, in which individual personalities do not have the same impact. In groups like The Kingston Trio or The Weavers, the individuals that made up the group had a noticeable impact on the sound and personality of the group. As good as Eric Darling and John Stewart and Frank Hamilton were, no one could replace Seeger, and it just wasn't The Weavers anymore.

Here's an extreme case to try on as a thought experiment:   contemplate Peter Paul and Mary retiring individually, but finding replacements. Eventually we have a trio composed of Fred, Lloyd, and Virginia. Is that still "Peter Paul and Mary?"

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 01:19 PM

"As good as Eric Darling and John Stewart and Frank Hamilton were, no one could replace Seeger, and it just wasn't The Weavers anymore."

You will get some arguments there. The Weavers made some wonderful recordings with Darling and Hamilton. Darling's musical expertise especially added a new dimension to their music. Don't overlook the contribution they made!

I assume you meant John Stewart in the Kingston Trio, not the Weavers. Even though they didn't have the huge hit singles, the Stewart years are generally recognized for the artistic growth that the Trio had. Some would even say their best years were with Stewart!

"contemplate Peter Paul and Mary retiring individually, but finding replacements. Eventually we have a trio composed of Fred, Lloyd, and Virginia. Is that still "Peter Paul and Mary?"

That is too hypothetical to consider. Considering that the trio has been together for 40 plus years, it isn't the same as a group that has evolved through changes.

PPM was a manufactured image - but one that works dramatically well. Plus, Noel "adopted" the name of Paul!! I wonder what would have happened with the original trio that Albert Grossman wanted - Bob Gibson, Hamilton Camp and reportedly Marilyn Child.

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: GLoux
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 01:34 PM

The Kingston Trio has lasted 47 years and they didn't do that by making bad decisions. I think if they decide to continue on after Bob Shane's forced retirement, they have the foresight to understand what their audience wants, and that their credibility is in their hands. If they're wrong, then clearly no one will come to see them any more, because they've completely ruined their credibility. If they're right, they will continue. It is their call, IMHO.

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: Steve-o
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 02:32 PM

This is a bunch of real good ideas and opinions. I too have a special place in my heart for the Trio- they did get me started. But we all do have our favorites; they're all individuals with distinctive voices and personalities. I stayed with them well through the 70s, although my favorite in terms of singing and attitude was always Dave Guard. What a wonderful sort of "dry, but intellectual" wit he was. I hope Bob recovers totally and is happy with whatever he chooses to do- Lord knows, he's "paid his dues" in the grueling world of constantly touring entertainers. And the others that continue to perform as the K.Trio- fine and double fine. We are in great need of anything that represents actual music, preferrably with folky roots, to counteract today's musical wasteland.

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 02:50 PM

A goof. Eric Darling, Frank Hamilton, and aware that there was a third, but unable to immediately come up with Bernie Krause, somehow I managed to replace him with John Stewart.

I'm not saying that the Weavers, as a musical group, were not as good after Seeger left. I heard them when they first got started, and I have an umpteen CD boxed set of reissued Weavers records, so I've heard them in all of their incarnations. What I am saying is that Seeger's voice and style were so distinctive, even in that powerful group, that the sound just wasn't the same. Good? Not as good? Matter of taste, I guess. I have no quibble with their continuing to call themselves The Weavers. However, when the entire personnel of a small group changes, I just don't see how you can say it's the same group. That was my point with the Peter Paul and Mary example. Extreme, as I said, but I think the point holds.

I know how PP & M came into existence, and I also know that earlier, as a member of Grossman's manufactured trio starting with Gibson and Camp, Judy Henske was considered at one point. Now there would have been one helluva sound!

At this rate, as long as they're still a draw, a nominal "Kingston Trio" could still be in existence a few thousand years from now, touring colonies in this arm of the galaxy. Business is business. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: Sarah the flute
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 02:56 PM

Is Bill Zorn the one who is the brother of Pete Zorn and they were in aband called the Arizona Smoke Review. If so I had the priviledge of meeting him when they were on tour in the 1980s...and he let me have a go on the bass flute he was playing! He is very nice and a fine musician if its the same person

Sarah

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 03:12 PM

"I have no quibble with their continuing to call themselves The Weavers. However, when the entire personnel of a small group changes, I just don't see how you can say it's the same group. That was my point with the Peter Paul and Mary example. Extreme, as I said, but I think the point holds."

I don't mean to quibble, but I want to make sure you and anyone reading this understood the point I was trying to make. I don't think the PPM example you gave holds because the group never changed members in their history. We can't imagine it.   However, as you pointed out, the Weavers did and you had no problem with them calling themselves the Weavers. I'm not sure if there is a magic line between 3 or 4 members that allows the name to continue. I think more to the point is that history allowed the Weavers to exist with various personal changes. We can't fathom a PPM without the three original members because it never happened.

Actually, I take that back. Last year Bethanny Yarrow filled in for Mary Travers, but I do think they called themselves Peter, Paul & Bethanny for the gig.

It really is a personal decision for the members of the groups to make, and audience support to allow. It appears that the Kingston Trio will continue to draw from their fan base regardless of the participation of the surviving original members.

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: Rasta
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 03:36 PM

---im amazed at the response of bob shane and the trio . im not much for all the argument bout whos who in the group and so on but i respect you all for it. I really really really love the kingston trio way back when and in the now. theyve been alot of fun and know how to deliver a song with feeling and mean it. IM also into dylan ,lightfoot ,greenbriar boys ,bluegrass and the late mimi farinia (take heart) theyve all been a part of the big picture---i dont know much bout bill zorn but im sure they wouldnt let him in just by chance. Gerge Groves is probabbly the best banjo picker the group has ever had and sings with as much gusto and any member as well. (by the way George is in the process of making and vido on pickin the 5-string ) Bobby Harworth is a real talent playing banjo guitar or tenor and a great add to the trio. Not to forget the sidemen whose names escape me for the moment ,forgive me guys. --I certainly hope Bob Shane can work again id miss is presense (wild man)
but for the mean time give these guys a hoot ,they do a great job puttin a great show I hope ive made sense of all this no offense to anyone-----and Bob get better were all rootin for ya-----rastaaaa (pat Keating )

Subject: RE: Bob Shane is done after 47 years
From: Once Famous
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 03:49 PM

Ron

The difference is that even though George Grove and Bob Haworth have been there a long time, they have recorded virtually nothing with any impact and just do basically the same show witht eh same songs and jokes that were done in the Guard/stewart years.

Without Seeger, the Weavers continued to create. The Trio, much as I loved them, decided to stand still. Grove and Haworth have been really no more than hired clones. Now so is Bill Zorn.

They haven't been a group for years. They are a product.